He is, but I made that team and came to him and asked him to try it and tell me what he thought and change anything if he needed to... he was #1 with it pretty much the next day from there we polished it up a bit together and wound up with what we have now (again, my deviation was stupid so I managed to get to 5 before I gave up laddering).
I thought so, but getting to any rank on the leaderboard still doesn't make your claim right. It means you are good at laddering.
BurtonEarny said:
I defended my claim Heysup. Raikou should never sweep a hail team that carries a Chansey and you cant say anything that will change the fact that all of the raikou I have beaten have failed to sweep me (I dont think I have ever been swept by a raikou with that team now that I think about it). Gallade is actually the biggest threat that you have mentioned and even then its best chance to sweep is to be sub bulk up w/ leftovers. Charm is a beautiful thing on Chansey and as soon as Dugtrio becomes a problem... it wont be a problem anymore.
Raikou can easily sweep a hail team
without Chansey, or with Dugtrio even if the opponent has Chansey. Charm Chansey doesn't stop Dugtrio from OHKOing it with Beat Up, it even 2HKOes 100% of the time with only 2-3 Pokemon alive (depending on Pokemon). Anything higher than that is almost always a OHKO. I don't know how to calc beat up, but I assure you it's true. Also, if you are OMGolly (xiang told me you were, so that's why I'm assuming you are) I'm pretty sure I have swept you with your hail team with my previous team that got me to ~5th too. I remember that because I saw you (not on OMGolly) use Charm Chansey, and the next time I saw your hail team I beat it with Beat Up Duggy.
Also, Raikou is 1 Pokemon. There are tons of other Pokemon who just plow through Hail teams (Blaziken for example).
I'll gladly move passed Raikou when your argument isn't "Use Chansey", which is not only ridiculous to force someone to do, it is also easily beaten with a counter argument of "Use Dugtrio". "Raikou is overpowered anyway" is not an argument for hail being broken. We didn't ban Yanmega even though we knew it would be broken with it's two major checks / counters banned.
It's also a great comparison of something that
is broken (Raikou imo) to something that isn't broken (hail imo).
BurtonEarny said:
I'm not taking what you said to the extreme... what you said was froslass was the only reason hail is broken and I'm not so sure that is the case. I get what you are saying about hail being dead when froslass was gone, but I'm not sure its because it was underpowered so much as it lacked an additional pokemon that abused hail. If we took snover out I dont see why froslass couldn't be uu. I personally dont view her as an overpowered bl like I once did... just a pokemon that sits uncomfortably between really good and too good UNLESS she is in hail. Thats the breaking point which makes me want to test a snoverless uu with froslass in it (and we did for about the first 3/4ths of the test and I was getting more and more underwhelmed to be honest)
I did not say hail was broken at all. I said the only reason it's "good" is because Froslass is broken almost undeniably in hail.
Firstly, testing a Snoverless UU is assuming Hail is broken, not Froslass
in hail. I disagree with that completely. Froslass is the only thing broken about Hail teams, nothing else even remotely fits the characteristics except for Walrein who is very easy to destroy because of the whole slew of Encore users and more importantly, Rock Blast Cloyster, Aggron, Low Kick Blaziken, etc. Froslass is broken in Hail because of Snow Cloak, which pushes it (further) into "BL status" then it would be in a normal game without hail.
Hail without Froslass has been tested. It is no where near broken. So why would we not just ban Froslass since we
know that it fixes the problem? Snover + Froslass = Broken. Hail w/o Froslass = not broken at all. Froslass w/o Hail = BL or "possibly BL" (at worst). Why not ban the Pokemon that breaks the metagame? It's common sense.
If you want to prove that Froslass isn't the factor, then use hail without her. See how that works. Hint: we already know. Froslass is the independent variable. It controls whether hail is "broken" or not according to the evidence that we have been fortunate enough to collect over the passed few months.