A New Ice Age?- UU Hail Discussion

[BurtonEarny]

<Lee> I'd love for you guys to make it. [Xianglongfa & BurtonEarny]

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PLEASE NOTE: This thread is for discussion regarding hail teams and hail based pokemon. Please try to focus your discussions in this thread primarily on the specific pokemon that make up the core to a hail team (ie. snover, walrein, froslass, glalie, etc.)

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So, it seems to xianglongfa, others, and myself that hail is becoming more and more common as of late. Why? The simple answer is it is very effective, and arguably overpowered. Here are some posts that can kick start the discussion on this thread:

I'm certainly not speaking with a lot of experience here, but Snover sort of seems like a gimmick - I mean sure, the support it grants Froslass is great, but it really doesn't have much use outside of that. It just seems like a one-trick pony that will potentially bring inconvenience to the rest of your team, and if you don't succeed with Froslass it becomes a major liability.

I have to say that hail is probably one of the least talked about team types this test when I think its currently the strongest in uu. Im nearly convinced that if froslass is not broken for the support characteristic itself outside of hail, then snover is for making walrein and her broken in it.

I cant say froslass is bl for sure because Im not convinced that she is outside of hail. But in hail her and her ability are stupid good whether she is stalling/ spiking or smashing faces with specs blizzard. I think snover is a potential bl that people may not be noticing.

I wouldn't really say that Hail is clearly the "strongest" team style in UU. I would just say that most people on the ladder have a hard time dealing with it just because they just don't know how. The fact that it's a stall team, coupled with its ability to tough out a losing battle after getting haxed(which normal stalls can't do) makes it very strong on the ladder. However, I find that against a decent percentage of well made teams that the opponent can beat our hail team with less prediction than is required on our part. (i.e. if they knew how to play against this playstyle, I would give them more than even odds to win)

On another note, HELL YES froslass is broken in hail

then those teams just aren't getting played often enough xia because I usually end up costing myself the match if I lose... I think hail is a much more dominating force than people give it credit for as long as froslass stays uu (walrein cant really get the job done by himself).

I'm still unconvinced that hail is really as overpowered as you think. Though it's definitely one of the best team types in UU, the real edge that it has on the ladder is still mostly based on the inexperience and incompetence of UU ladderers in general against this team type, and its ability to tough out more wins after hax than standard stall.(it can execute its own strategy) Against a "good" player who understands how to play against hailstall, the playstyle is still very beatable. Most strong offensive teams pack enough stuff like sleep powder/SD venu, honchkrow, gallade, blaziken, trick users etc. to give hail or just about any other stall a lot of trouble if used wisely.

Froslass is probably the biggest reason for hail's current effectiveness on the ladder. The other is perhaps the UU metagame shift caused by the introduction of other suspects. Hail loves life orbs :D

That is unfortunately the mentality of many players trying to use Hail, but honestly, if you just use Snover as a one-time suicide Pokemon, you're doing it wrong.

The most success I have had with Snover is when using a special defensive spread. It can come in on bulky Waters like Milotic with ease and start throwing out Leech Seed and/or Toxic to wear down the opponent. In addition to this, it can check most forms of Raikou decently, as well as several Rain threats such as Ludicolo and Gorebyss, even some Omastars lacking Ancientpower. The latter is especially important for the success of a Hail team, as your weather-inducer needs to be able to come in multiple times against other weather teams where possible.

So I wouldn't necessarily class Snover as a one-trick pony. If played right it can serve as a valuable team member in general, outside of just providing the initial weather set-up. Even if it doesn't end up doing much in a match, Froslass is borderline broken under Hail anyway (even better now with Sub + Pain Split), and would be proving its worth just for providing that condition.

I'm certainly not disagreeing with you - actually, I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. Rather than labelling it a one-trick pony, I guess the best way to put what I meant would be that it caters to it's niche, but is severely outclassed in most/all of it's secondary functions.

It's stats really make it unsustainable to the point that only a very experienced player could use it effectively. You could say the same about a number of UU and NU pokemon as well, which is why I don't think it's broken to the point of being BL. I don't see Snover centralizing the UU metagame anytime soon.

...

Though, Froslass has gotten me thinking - It really is an interesting pokemon, and I think it might be BL.

Agreed. Hail teams are just the most annoying playing style I am to face. IMO it just lacked a pokémon other than Walrein that could cause some real trouble, and Froslass is that poké, being able to setup spikes, abuse Hail's evasion and sweep with STABed Blizzards, maybe being more of a problem than *OMG screams outloud and punches a wall until the hands start bleeding* Walrein (I just hate that Walrus).

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Okay, so we have some quotes about hail and some people's standpoint on the issue... but why is it even getting brought up in the first place? That is a good question and the answer is due to the nature of pokemon that stall in hail, it is extremely resilient/ flexible at being able to do its job regardless of what threat is on the other side of the match. I want to take a little bit of an in- depth look at these hail- based pokemon and highlight their usefulness on a team.

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-Snover-
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It makes sense to begin with the pokemon that enables this type of team to run efficiently. Snover is largely on hail teams for his ability to set up hail permanently provided no other weather changing effect happens. Snover's job is made much easier in uu than abomasnow's in ou because permanent weather starters of sandstorm are far less common meaning against a larger portion of teams he need only appear once to accomplish his main job. However, it is a common misconception that snover is only useful as a suicide lead of sorts and that it is too frail to be an effective team member beyond setting up hail. This is just plain not true... UU cannot afford useless team slots and snover should never be considered one. Its usefulness is limited, yes, but it should not be a pokemon you just slap focus sash on before making the rest of the team.

-How Is Snover Useful?-
Snover's typing, though leaving him riddled with weaknesses, can be a bit of a blessing against certain pokemon in the tier. For instance, a specially defensive snover can make for a wonderful back up check to several things on an opposing team such as cm raikou and milotic. Also, snover has a STAB priority move, this should not be forgotten as it helps to offset its miserable speed and allow for some potential surprise ko's. Acess to leech seed provides a wonderful way to quickly wear an opponent down in hail and encourages switches, possibly causing additional entry hazard damage. Protect is also a nice move in tandem with hail to essentially deal at least six percent damage for free and scout an opponents moveset. Finally, if the situation arises, snover makes for a nice sacrifice provided he is not the only check you have to a certain pokemon on your opponent's team. Please be aware that snover isn't very bulky and really even decently powered nuetral hits will dent him. Aim to come in on weak hits or resisted ones and snover can actually surprise you with his usefulness.



-Walrein-
Walrein is the reason hail was put on the map in the first place. He is infamous for his guaranteed minimum of thirty two turns of stall. He is largely unchanged in UU hail teams, though he takes hits considerably better in this tier and despite his ice typing is a solid bulky water with or without hail support.

-How Is Walrein Useful?-
Um... if your asking yourself this question then you must not have read the place where I said he gets at least thirty two turns of stall guaranteed. Of course, seeing it in writing makes it sound much better than it actually is as taunt, encore, etc. can really hinder the set. However, him getting behind a sub can easily mean 'gg' for a team that is not prepared. If Walrein fails to beat an opponent after thirty six or more turns he will have at the very least made several pokemon, if not the entire opponents team, good and squishy hopefully, making it easy for the user to pick them off with their remaining pokemon should the hail team be taking a more offensive route. People play Walrein too conservatively, as though he has to be the last pokemon sent into the match. This is, for the most part, not a good idea. He is a bulky water and people play him as though he were Shedinja. A bulky water is meant to take abuse and walrein can take plenty and still manage to make it behind a sub just fine if played correctly.

-Froslass-
Froslass is much more valuable in UU than in the higher tiers of play. In OU she can't perform well as a hit taker so greater lengths have to be taken to keep her from taking damage, but this is not the case in UU. No one can deny that froslass is a very good UU pokemon, if not broken. Now, take that good pokemon and give her evasion and make the opposing team take six percent a turn as they try to kill her and you have a stalling nightmare on your hands. This pokemon's ability to stall out opposing teams by herself when in hail is unreal. However, froslass is too good in this weather condition to have a single role. When in hail her STAB Blizzard with or without specs hits like a truck and has perfect accuracy. Hail opens up opportunities to blow holes in an opposing team not prepared for her to fire off such a powerful hit.
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-How Is Froslass Useful?-
How can't she be useful is actually a much better question. Since she need no longer rely on Ice Beam for reliable ice STAB damage, she can pull of an attacker set without much difficulty completely taking opponents by surprise. If the idea of an offensive wrecking ball with evasion doesn't grab you, then perhaps a spiking spin blocker will suit you a bit better? She cant quite as effectively as walrein does, but walrein can't get up two or three easy layers of spikes while stalling at the same time which can be much more helpful to a team. Lastly, Destiny Bond, much like explosion, will always remain an option wherever it is available. However, be aware that Froslass can usually do much more with her four moves.



-Cloyster-
Cloyster is worth mention both for his usefulness on a hail team and when facing against one. The shellfish's most notable niche is as a spiker/ spinner that is immune to hail damage. Cloyster can work as a replacement to Froslass/ Glalie if you would prefer him as a spiker if only for his access to rapid spins and both sets of spikes. Against hail teams Cloyster can really do some damage. HE boasts a x4 resistance to ice and his Skill Link Rock Blast will break the subs of hail stall pokemon and deliver multiple additional hits for SE damage.

-How Is Cloyster Useful?-
Much of Cloyster's usefulness has already been mentioned, though there are some potential move options available to help support a team. Cloyster has access to a STAB priority move which is always very helpful especially as it hits grass types for SE damage potentially ending their sweep before it can do too much damage to your team. Cloyster can also hit from the special side boasting ice and water type STAB's, though giving up Rock Blast will be tough. As a warning, Cloyster can learn Explosion so be on the look out for the move. Beyond offensive move selections, Cloyster is not the most versatile pokemon and is rarely ever anything other than a dedicated spiker/ spinner.



-Articuno-

Articuno has never been a topnotch pokémon, and that's not recent. The amount of weakness it presents due to its typing always overshadowed an area where it was supposed to shine: Stall. When the 4th generation was introducted Articuno took yet another huge hit, or should I say hits. The addition of Stealth Rocks, which became one of if not the most common move, the addition of more powerful moves and the attack split are all factors that contributed to Articuno's fall to NU. Articuno did, in spite of that, get two new advantages as this generation arrived; one that few people explore: Hail; and other that more people do know: Roost.
It's under such weather that Articuno can show it's real prowess. In these kinds of teams it's common to have methods of keeping rocks off the field, and by doing that what was supposed to be a thread not to be considered gets extremely hard to take down once you add Hail costantly pelting your team, an instant recovery move that rids it of flying status for a turn, which might be a blessing or a curse, 90/100/125 defenses, STABed 100% accurate Blizzards and a decent 85 base speed.

-How Is Articuno Useful?-
One of the best things about Articuno is the multitude of annoyance methods it possesses. It can run Toxic Stall sets making use of Roost and Substitute, as his decent base speed should allow him to protect himself before status can hit him, and its defenses can make it really hard to break its Substitute in one hit. It also has the option of running a SubRoar set that abuses entry hazards a common concept when it comes to Hail Stall. Finally it has the capacity of running Heal Bell, something that's always good to have especially on Stall teams, as status just break certain pokés.
To top all that Articuno got the infamous Pressure Ability, which fits its stallish nature perfectly and a decent base 95 SpAtk, which will cause its Blizzards to hurt quite a bit.​

-Glalie-
I had to give him some honrable mention... Glalie is pretty much inferior to froslass in just about every way given that he has worse speed, isn't immune to fighting, and doesn't get snow cloak. He cannot block spins either which is another thing Froslass has over Glalie. He can pull of a sub stall akin to walrein, but he is far less bulky and generally inferior because of this fact.

-How Is Glalie Useful?-
Honestly, it's not as useful as Froslass in just about any way. Just use Froslass until either she or Snover is voted bl. Explosion is an option that Glalie has that Froslass does not. This move allows Glalie to take out an opposing team member it probably wouldn't have ko'd otherwise.



-Glaceon-

Glaceon shares Froslass's Snow Cloak ability and a 130 base SpA, making it an excellent special sweeper. It's low speed means it's best complimented with a Choice Scarf, being able to outrun everything bar +Speed Electrode with Timid Scarf and +natured base 120s with Modest scarf. The only bad thing about Glaceon is its movepool. Blizzard/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting are no brainers, but when it comes to the fourth slot, all it can really muster is a redundant Ice Beam, Baton Pass for scouting, or a couple of gimmick moves like Ice Shard or Sleep Talk. Fake Tears is also an option if you don't mind the low speed.

-How Is Glaceon Useful?-
Glaceon makes an excellent special sweeper with base 130 SpA, but it's best set is probably the Choice Scarf set. The scarf makes you a decent revenge killer, and a 180 BP Blizzard coming off his huge SpA is going to dent pretty much anything. The only bad thing about Glaceon is that it's currently outclassed by Froslass due to her superior speed, but Glaceon has the raw power to seriously dent the majority of the tier.

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That sums up a look at each of the core pokemon for your common hail team. Lastly I want to leave you with my insights on hail stall and how it should be played in the UU environment.

-Where To Begin?-
It all starts with Snover and Walrein. This pair constitutes the core of Hail stall. The next four pokemon make up the utility and really supplement this core. A big thing to keep in mind is that Synthesis, Morning Sun, and Moonlight are nearly useless in hail so avoid picking pokemon that depend on these moves for recovery. These pokemon are not specially bulky so you are going to want to pack a dedicated special wall such as Chansey or Umbreon on the team unless you are running hail offense so as to handle Moltres and some other special attackers. Note: If your running Chansey you will need a Missy Counter.

-What Moves Need To Be Present?-
Hail stall loves the move protect, and though it by no means needs to be on every pokemon, believe me when I say that several team members should pack it (walrein should by default and so should defensive variants of snover as well). The three forms of entry hazards are the next big thing to find room for. Toxic Spikes is much more useful in hail because most UU grounded poisons are part grass and not only have undermined recovery in hail, but also get nailed SE by a large portion of the team. This means that these Toxic Spikes absorbers won't be coming in but once or twice in most cases. Lastly, the wish/ protect move combination not only gives you another protect user, but it also offers recovery to the team to help offset SR damage if you find yourself unable to keep it off of the field. Rapid Spin is another mainstay on this team, but Foresight+ Rapid Spin is highly recommended as at least two or three of your pokemon are going to be weak to SR.

-Whats The Strategy Here?-
Try to get hazards up early, specifically Toxic Spikes (one layer is usually all I bother with at the start). This will let you know whether or not they have a toxic spikes absorber fast so you can work on forcing it into the match and wearing it down early. Once the poison type is out of the way set your Toxic Spikes and stall with Walrein + your Special Wall. Focus on keeping SR off of the field as much as you can as it causes headaches for this type of team.

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Well... hopefully our guide provided you a solid introduction to hail stall strategy in UU and its core team members as well as some quotes that deserve to be in the discussion but were posted elsewhere. Do you feel hail is just another thing that is getting noticed because people aren't prepared for it, are you thinking hail is legitimately overpowered, or are you riding the fence and think hail is simply "good." Discuss...

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[Random Pizzaman]

Hail thread, I agree there should be one for discussion. Now that I've actually tried Hail, I'm gonna say that it really is a great playing style. Froslass herself usually gets so much accomplished under the hail, and STAB Blizzards are just wonderful. The only problem I'm having is getting the right 3 pokemon to accompany the 3 staples, since it always seems like I'm weak to something no matter what I use.

EDIT: Oh and I agree about Snover being pretty useful sometimes, it just won me a game down 1-3. It's a great subseeder.

 

[Tint]

can we have an idea of what teamates there are to help cover the ice weaknesses? I can imagine a Gallade being tough to deal with, even with the residual damage, or something like Moltres.

 

[d2m]

Scarf Glaceon and Bulky Piloswine are two of my favorite Hail team members. The former makes a decent sweeper and great revenge killer with perfect neutral coverage through HP Fight/Shadow Ball plus STAB Blizzard and Ice Beam (in case Hail goes away). The latter makes a great SR user and can do some real damage to the opponent's team including (for me at the time) revenging Yanmega, but his plethora weaknesses make him less than ideal. I put together a hail team in 5 minutes and played just for kicks, I remember the only team I consistently beat was the #1 on the ladder at the time <_<


With HP + Speed EVs, Snover can outspeed and set up on bulky waters. I ran Grass Knot/Leech Seed/Protect/Substitute and it acted like a Pseudo Stallrein. He is by no means dead weight, although obviously Abomasnow can run this and every other set better.

I want to ask one question, though, would Abomasnow be uber without Froslass?

I feel I can't answer the question because I always build my teams to have checks to hail teams, like Taunt/Encore to stop Stallrein or Clefable, who single handedly brings every hail team to an utter halt, so hail never bothered me. But everyone keeps crying "BROKEN" and "UBER" and I can see how it would get that way without having to use certain members on your team that I enjoy using anyway.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Scarf Glaceon and Bulky Piloswine are two of my favorite Hail team members. The former makes a decent sweeper and great revenge killer with perfect neutral coverage through HP Fight/Shadow Ball plus STAB Blizzard and Ice Beam (in case Hail goes away). The latter makes a great SR user and can do some real damage to the opponent's team including (for me at the time) revenging Yanmega, but his plethora weaknesses make him less than ideal. I put together a hail team in 5 minutes and played just for kicks, I remember the only team I consistently beat was the #1 on the ladder at the time <_<


With HP + Speed EVs, Snover can outspeed and set up on bulky waters. I ran Grass Knot/Leech Seed/Protect/Substitute and it acted like a Pseudo Stallrein. He is by no means dead weight, although obviously Abomasnow can run this and every other set better.

I want to ask one question, though, would Abomasnow be uber without Froslass?

I feel I can't answer the question because I always build my teams to have checks to hail teams, like Taunt/Encore to stop Stallrein or Clefable, who single handedly brings every hail team to an utter halt, so hail never bothered me. But everyone keeps crying "BROKEN" and "UBER" and I can see how it would get that way without having to use certain members on your team that I enjoy using anyway.

About snover... I would rather have "bulk" than "speed"... Largely sub has been useless when I tried it because most anything can do 25% to snover.

Hey... If you make a write up for glaceon and piloswine in the same format that I did the first 4 I'll put it in the OP and credit you... I want this to be thorough and although those options are unorthodox they are still options.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I was wondering why there was an explosion of hail stall teams today...

Hail stall's biggest enemies are bulky fighters, like Hariyama, Hitmontop and Gallade. Hariyama in particular can be a major threat with its bulk, hard hitting fighting moves, and access to Payback and Earthquake (which screw the poison and ghost counters most hail teams run). Thick Fat makes it so Blizzard does laughable damage, and Guts uses Tspikes to turn Hariyama into a monster.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

About Glaceon: Scarf Jynx can run Modest and is both faster and more powerful than Timid Scarf Glaceon. It also has a bigger movepool for fillers,like Lovely Kiss, Psychic, Focus Blast and Trick. Glaceon's only advantages are more bulk, and that it doesnt have a weakness to Sucker Punch.

 

[d2m]

About Glaceon: Scarf Jynx can run Modest and is both faster and more powerful than Timid Scarf Glaceon. It also has a bigger movepool for fillers,like Lovely Kiss, Psychic, Focus Blast and Trick. Glaceon's only advantages are more bulk, and that it doesnt have a weakness to Sucker Punch.

Pursuit is the bigger problem. Glaceon can run Baton Pass to scout a la SpecsJolt in OU, not to mention it can take a pursuit. Modest scarf is still an option for more power, although it will lose to Jolly Dugtrio/Timid Zam.

The thing about Piloswine nowadays is that he's basically an inferior Donphan. I ran this team just before Donphan came down. Snow Cloak and a stronger Ice Shard are good reasons to use him, but he ties in attack, has lower defense, and a plethora of weaknesses complementing his abysmal speed. He'd make a good CBer if he was a bit more bulky, I used him as a lead to set up SR and 2HKO any Yanmega leads. Seeing as Yanmega isn't a problem and we have Donphan for a tank, I wouldn't recommend him, but he was fun to use.

Here's a write up for Glaceon:

-Glaceon-

Glaceon shares Froslass's Snow Cloak ability and a 130 base SpA, making it an excellent special sweeper. It's low speed means it's best complimented with a Choice Scarf, being able to outrun everything bar +Speed Electrode with Timid Scarf and +natured base 120s with Modest scarf. The only bad thing about Glaceon is its movepool. Blizzard/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting are no brainers, but when it comes to the fourth slot, all it can really muster is a redundant Ice Beam, Baton Pass for scouting, or a couple of gimmick moves like Ice Shard or Sleep Talk. Fake Tears is also an option if you don't mind the low speed.

-How can Glaceon be useful?-

Glaceon makes an excellent special sweeper with base 130 SpA, but it's best set is probably the Choice Scarf set. The scarf makes you a decent revenge killer, and a 180 BP Blizzard coming off his huge SpA is going to dent pretty much anything. The only bad thing about Glaceon is that it's currently outclassed by Froslass due to her superior speed, but Glaceon has the raw power to seriously dent the majority of the tier.
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[BurtonEarny]

Thanks d2m. Its in the op and you are credited. You basically said it yourself though, froslass does glaceon's job better than it partially because its faster and can run specs over scarf much easier and it also has the added bonuses of immunities allowing for easier switch in's and STAB on part of the unresisted combo... Despite that, glaceon IS a hail pokemon nonetheless and I'm happy you remembered her.

 

[whistle]

I haven't been laddering recently but a few thoughts on the topic...

1. I completely agree with your ideas about how to use Snover. Just because its stats aren't great doesn't mean it should be thrown away as a useless team member; with 252 HP / 252 SDef Sassy (I used that with Leech Seed, Protect, Blizzard, and Wood Hammer I think), Snover (324/240) hits almost the same special defensiveness as SDef Forretress (354/240) or SDef Skarmory (334/262). Those are also Pokemon that use SDef spreads due to auspicious typing rather than high base stats; Snover has nice resistances to Grass, Water, and Electric, which can let it in somewhat easily against Pokemon like Milotic and even some Raikou to start annoying the other team (Wood Hammer + Leech Seed + Hail screws up Sub/CM). In general: why throw away Snover when you can use a set that lets it try to be a valuable member of your team?

2. If Froslass / Walrein are broken in hail, who is BL? I believe the answer is unequivocally Snover. Without Snover, Froslass doesn't have unending hail to abuse Snow Cloak with; Walrein only gains back 6.25% of its HP every turn instead of 12.5%; they both don't have 100% accurate Blizzards (if you choose to use that over Ice Beam); etc. If these Pokemon aren't broken without Hail support, Snover is clearly the one that is BL under the support clause.

3. Protect: annoying. The only reason Hail teams win half the time. BurtonEarny covered this all.

4. It takes a lot of skill to play hail (moreso than most other stall teams IMO); if you can't play around major threats like Gallade, Blaziken, Houndoom, etc; you will get swept.

 

[Colonel M]

There is actually one perk to Glalie: Explosion. I think that's noteworthy enough since its options are otherwise outclassed by Froslass.

 

[YaM]

Isn't Glalie meant to be used as a second Stallrein rather than like Froslass? It has Ice Body and runs almost the same set as Walrein (Sub/Protect/Super Fang) but with Taunt over Roar..

 

[Mrobinson587]

Snover definitely fits the support characteristic and I will be voting BL if I qualify. Might have to just copy paste a hail team myself just to get there :)

Froslass and Walrein are very hard for teams to deal with just on their own.

How does hail vs hail go?

Also no mention of lapras? Heal Bell, wide movepool and Perish trapping.

Never played hail but

Sub
Block
Perish Song
Protect
should work pretty well
Also has Dive as an option

 

[XenoIncognito]

I also disagree with Snover being useless. Mine uses Protect/Toxic/Leech Seed/Ice Shard and it's great at stalling out after a few entry hazards are out, acting as a pseudo-walrein of sorts.

Someone above said hail is probably the most difficult weather team to use, and I agree: sandstorm teams have a variety of intrinsically resistant Rock/Steel types. Sun and rain teams are more offensive and are used to hit like a truck, not stall.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I'm surprised that Cloyster hasn't been mentioned yet. Not just for its potential use on a Hail team, but also the threat that it provides against them. It has a 4x Ice resistance, is not affected by Hail, and has Rock Blast to screw over Walrein, Froslass and others. In addition to this, it can set up Spikes and use Rapid Spin, which it can do quite effectively as Froslass really doesn't want to switch in. I preferred it to Glalie on one of my earlier Hail teams because it provides the ever useful Rapid Spin and can cover the team somewhat physically, allowing Walrein to bulk up more on the special side instead.

Glalie is pretty much inferior to froslass in just about every way given that he has worse base stats in most areas, isn't immune to fighting, and doesn't get snow cloak.

The bolded part isn't right at all. Glalie has superior HP, Defense and Special Defense; Froslass only excels in Speed. It is for all the other reasons that Glalie is inferior to Froslass.

Also, I agree that there should be more discussion on the Pokemon that are commonly seen on Hail to provide the defensive cover, such as Hariyama, Nidoqueen and Moltres, and the support that they each provide for the rest of the team.

 

[Erazor]

Those who say that Snover is useless have clearly never actually used him. Snover's quite a bitch using Protect and Leech Seed.

I find Hail versus Rain Matchups to be rather enjoyable. Kabutops under the rain takes out pretty much the whole hail team if Stone Edge doesn't fail you(it will). However, once the opponent sees RD, he will keep Snover alive till the end. It's really enjoyable in that way.

Hariyama is needed on a hail team IMO. It prevents Houndoom from dismantling the team(although it is possible to outstall it with clever switching), and checks stuff like Blaziken, who is a great threat to hail.

 

[Bluewind]

I believe Articuno deserves an honorable mention on this thread. The main things that stopped him from being used as a defensive pokémon were his Ice typing and SR Weakness. However, it's Ice typing is acutally a blessing now, as he's not getting pelted by hail and can enjoy Leftovers recovery, and Hail teams are usually (or at least should be) paired with a good spinner, due to the fact most members are Ice type pokes, meaning Articuno gains complete freedom of abusing his defenses.
Once you get Articuno in, which is not hard due to his humongous SpDef, you can destroy your opponent with a toxic stalling set or a Roaring set to abuse entry hazards. Instant recovery and usable SpAtk for Blizzard spamming are the icing on the cake (no pun intended).
I do agree also that we should mention another pokés that fit very well on hail teams, like Hitmontop, being a reliable spinner or Nidoqueen, a hazards setup and fighting resist.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Changed the glalie base stats comment... for some reason I thought she was bse 80 across the board like glalie except for speed.

Alright... I'll get up an articuno and cloyster section in a bit, unless you guys would rather write them and I'll credit you. That goes for anyone who does a write up for a pokemon that you feel excels on a hail team. PM them to me and I'll put them in the OP.
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Discussing non "hail" pokemon on hail teams such as hariyama etc. is fine just so long as talk doesn't drift to something completely irrelevant. Also, this thread wasn't so much meant to be a "What pokemon work in hail" but more of "Is hail too good to be in uu" and I dont think that we have been touching on that enough... I only listed the pokemon I felt were working to make hail too strong in the tier and added glalie as some comic relief. I didn't necessarily mean to write a guide on hail or anything like that, but if during the course of discussion it happens, then thats not a bad thing I guess.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Also, this thread wasn't so much meant to be a "What pokemon work in hail" but more of "Is hail too good to be in uu" and I dont think that we have been touching on that enough...

I can't really say whether its broken or not yet, but I have played with and against Hail a few times recently and I'm already sick of the concept. They're dead boring (and often cheap) to use and absolutely horrible to play against, particularly Frostitute.

As for what if anything is broken, that is perhaps better answered by people with more experience in this regard. For this reason I will probably abstain from any potential vote on Froslass or Snover, as Hail seems to be quite a significant factor for both of them in terms of their status.

 

[Bluewind]

Ok I have written an OP for Articuno. I hope you don't mind if I post it here, as I think it's better to do so because people can give opinions on what is missing and if the write up is clear.

Articuno​

Articuno has never been a topnotch pokémon, and that's not recent. The amount of weakness it presents due to its typing always overshadowed an area where it was supposed to shine: Stall. When the 4th generation was introducted Articuno took yet another huge hit, or should I say hits. The addition of Stealth Rocks, which became one of if not the most common move, the addition of more powerful moves and the attack split are all factors that contributed to Articuno's fall to NU. Articuno did, in spite of that, get two new advantages as this generation arrived; one that few people explore: Hail; and other that more people do know: Roost.
It's under such weather that Articuno can show it's real prowess. In these kinds of teams it's common to have methods of keeping rocks off the field, and by doing that what was supposed to be a thread not to be considered gets extremely hard to take down once you add Hail costantly pelting your team, an instant recovery move that rids it of flying status for a turn, which might be a blessing or a curse, 90/100/125 defenses, STABed 100% accurate Blizzards and a decent 85 base speed.​

How can Articuno be useful?​

One of the best things about Articuno is the multitude of annoyance methods it possesses. It can run Toxic Stall sets making use of Roost and Substitute, as his decent base speed should allow him to protect himself before status can hit him, and its defenses can make it really hard to break its Substitute in one hit. It also has the option of running a SubRoar set that abuses entry hazards a common concept when it comes to Hail Stall. Finally it has the capacity of running Heal Bell, something that's always good to have especially on Stall teams, as status just break certain pokés.
To top all that Articuno got the infamous Pressure Ability, which fits its stallish nature perfectly and a decent base 95 SpAtk, which will cause its Blizzards to hurt quite a bit.​

 

[d2m]

I want to raise a point I raised in the other thread:

Hail teams are considered broken right now due to the combination of stall aspects and Froslass being a very good Special sweeper who can abuse her high speed, ability, and a 120 BP STAB attack under hail. Hail was not considered banworthy before Froslass came back down, so I'm going to make a run-down of prominent hail pokes considered for BL then ask a question:

1) Snover- sets up hail, essential for every hail team.

Why is he BL- Considering his abysmal base stats make him susceptible to horrifying death even on a powerful neutral hit, plus a plethora of weaknesses due to his typing, he's not a sweeper, not a wall, so he really just acts to promote the rest of the team. Thus, if the other team members aren't BL, neither is Snover.

How to counter it: Touch it gently.

2) Froslass- Can set up spikes, sweep with Trickspecs or a LO thanks to high speed, immunity to fighting (Ice's worst nemesis) and a perfect accuracy blizzard. Not to mention Snow Cloak gives it the hax potential that was argubly one of the main reasons why Garchomp was voted Uber from OU.

Why it's BL: Speed is probably the main reason. Everything that's faster is an unreliable check with Snow Cloak in effect, as they're all OHKO'd (or damn near it) by a LO or Specs Blizzard. Add to that support options that also abuse Snow Cloak and you have the second most prominent hail abuser around.

How to counter it: Chansey and Clefable can wall it (the latter only if it invests in SpD) but can't really do much offensively except paralyze it, which does multiply its counters. Other than that, pursuit Spiritomb with SpD EVs can switch in and Pursuit it, but 2 STAB Blizzards to the face will leave a huge dent in it. Everything else is rather unreliable (predicting correctly with Sucker Punch for example) and above all, there's still the 20% chance Snow Cloak will hax you out of the kill.

3) Walrein- SSSSSSSTALLREIN. What else needs to be said? Sub/Protect + Ice Body means it stalls for 32 turns.

Why it's BL? It stalls for 32 turns.

How to counter it: Encore Clefable is the #1 Counter there is. It can PP stall Walrein, make it set up bait, and generally out-stall it due to it not taking hail damage. Trick screws over Walrein entirely. Taunt screws over Walrein entirely, and that can go through sub unlike Trick. Toxic Spikes make Walrein useless, getting any sort of status on the switch makes Walrein useless. As you can see, there's a plethora of ways to make sure he doesn't get his 32 turns in, but once he starts, the difficulties compound.


The Question: Which one makes Hail BL?

Is it Froslass?

Is it Snover?

Is it Walrein?

If you picked Walrein or Froslass, do you believe either one of them to be BL outside of hail as well?

Those are the questions we have to ask when we nominate suspects. The big conundrum is thus:

If Froslass is the whole reason Hail is BL, but is UU outside of Hail, who do we ban?

Without Froslass, Snover (and Abomasnow) don't deserve BL status, but with them in, Froslass deserves it. But if we ban Snover, we make Walrein and Hail in general completely useless just for the sake of keeping Froslass in the tier.

In my personal opinion, I think Froslass is BL inside hail and UU outside it. That said, I think we should ban Froslass and re-test Abomasnow. My reasoning is thus: eliminating an entire type of team for one potentially BL pokemon seems like a no-brainer in keeping the tier healthy. That said, if we follow the rigid letter of statutes and pride ourselves in keeping the tiers as balanced as possible, we would not want to ban a potentially UU pokemon to BL just because of one type of team.

 

[Heysup]

I think the major issue with Hail Teams is that they're so vulnerable to Raikou. I mean, I send Raikou in on <insert random Hail Pokemon>, and simply Calm Mind up, and just out speed and OHKO everything. It's quite ridiculous. If people were looking at why Hail was broken in the initial UU metagame, it was because Abomasnow had awesome longevity and was a solid Raikou counter. Snover just faints, meaning Raikou has an easy sweep.

If people are considering Hail broken, I'm just going to say that the obvious reason is Froslass. People (even the nay-sayers) have a consensus that Froslass is at least "possibly" BL outside of Hail. Inside of hail, I don't have a doubt that Froslass is either pushed over the BL line, or just pushed further into BL.

People should try out CB Blaziken against hail. It can come in and just plow through a team. Aggron is pretty cool too, but you need a surefire way to deal with Froslass though (non-existent unfortunately).

Personally, I think Hail is highly overrated. The fact that now people see Froslass "in their face broken" is why people are claiming hail is "that good".

 

[BurtonEarny]

I think the major issue with Hail Teams is that they're so vulnerable to Raikou. I mean, I send Raikou in on <insert random Hail Pokemon>, and simply Calm Mind up, and just out speed and OHKO everything. It's quite ridiculous. If people were looking at why Hail was broken in the initial UU metagame, it was because Abomasnow had awesome longevity and was a solid Raikou counter. Snover just faints, meaning Raikou has an easy sweep.

If people are considering Hail broken, I'm just going to say that the obvious reason is Froslass. People (even the nay-sayers) have a consensus that Froslass is at least "possibly" BL outside of Hail. Inside of hail, I don't have a doubt that Froslass is either pushed over the BL line, or just pushed further into BL.

People should try out CB Blaziken against hail. It can come in and just plow through a team. Aggron is pretty cool too, but you need a surefire way to deal with Froslass though (non-existent unfortunately).

Personally, I think Hail is highly overrated. The fact that now people see Froslass "in their face broken" is why people are claiming hail is "that good".

Heysup your undervaluing hail WAY too much and trying to make it out as though only froslass is the problem. No CM anything is going to outstall hail if toxic spikes are down provided its not a floater. The main TS absorber with recovery is destroyed by the sheer amount of STAB ice moves on a hail team while having her recovery undermined. Poisons without recovery can be worn down just as quickly in most cases. Raikou should never sweep a hail team... ever I cant believe you think this. Aggron shouldn't either provided you prepare for it. CM Blaziken better have leftovers or it loses just like any other sweeper, and even with leftovers its destroyed by toxic spikes. Its not so much a froslass in hail problem by herself imo as it is a team type problem magnified by the presence of froslass.

 

[Heysup]

Heysup your undervaluing hail WAY too much and trying to make it out as though only froslass is the problem.

It is the only problem.

No CM anything is going to outstall hail if toxic spikes are down provided its not a floater. The main TS absorber with recovery is destroyed by the sheer amount of STAB ice moves on a hail team while having her recovery undermined. Poisons without recovery can be worn down just as quickly in most cases.

On every team I've used I've found it stupidly easy to Spin against Hail (Kabutops, Donphan with Roar (beats Froslass in 2 Roars easily), Cloyster, etc.). Not only that; I don't ever give hail teams any chance to set up Tspikes. Nothing can set up Tspikes that isn't lolled at by a Rapid Spinner (Nidoqueen, Drapion), or is easily forced out by everything with a special move (Omastar, Cloyster). So yea, besides the fact that Toxic Spikes will never be set up, it's also easy to remove them. What's stopping me from switching Venusaur into your Nidoqueen, Drapion, Omastar, or Cloyster? It easily beats every one of those Pokemon. Not to mention, I just need to switch it in once, people should never get the chance to use Toxic Spikes more than once or twice, ever.

I'm also not talking about outstalling hail - that would be silly. I'm talking about actually sweeping a hail team. Hail Pokemon are lolslow, and easy to set up on because of their specially oriented attacks.

Raikou should never sweep a hail team... ever I cant believe you think this.

It does quite easily as I have shown. Ask Xianglongfa, he's watched it happen. I've come in on Scarf Glaceon or Frolsass, set up a Calm Mind, and proceeded to simply OHKO the rest of the team.

Aggron shouldn't either provided you prepare for it. CM Blaziken better have leftovers or it loses just like any other sweeper, and even with leftovers its destroyed by toxic spikes. Its not so much a froslass in hail problem by herself imo as it is a team type problem magnified by the presence of froslass.

Nothing that's Ice type can dream of stopping Aggron. Froslass can outspeed and Paralyze it, or attempt to make it miss with Sub, but other than that it does nothing but possibly force Aggron to switch out. Blaziken also just comes in, blows something up, and switches out. Toxic Spikes don't ever stay on the field with a hail team from my experience. Froslass isn't a "stand-alone" spin blocker, but Froslass is easily the only thing hail has that's close to being "broken".

 

[d2m]

Actually, spin blocking is rather easy with Dusclops (who I ran on my team) or bulky Mismagius that can burn your spinners and the latter is also immune to EQ. With Froslass, that double ghost prevents spinning rather easily. Omastar complements them perfectly by being able to absorb fire attacks that threaten Snover and the other Ice-types. That gives you a spiker if Froslass is a sweeper and a T-spiker if otherwise.