A New Ice Age?- UU Hail Discussion

[MagicMaster87]

1) Irregardless is my #1 pet peeve of "it is not a word". Sorry for the Grammer Nazi, I just can't help myself.

I could have sworn it was a word, but dictionary.com says it's nonstandard... Guess I'll have to find another word to use then.

2) That's not the case. We ban things to keep the meta balanced and healthy. That means we typically ban broken things, but this is another case. Snover has not come up in any suspect test since Froslass was banned, now that Froslass is back, he is being considered again. Thus he's only considered because of Froslass. Even if Froslass is not BL outside Hail, it is the reason why an entire playstyle is broken, and thus needs to be banned. Snover cannot run a BL set, Froslass can, not to mention that banning Snover means that Walrein, Glalie, and several others become completely and totally useless. Banning him is bad for the metagame as a whole, banning Froslass is a positive step.

How can you say for certain that banning Froslass over Snover will create a more balanced and healthy metagame? How can you say that for any Pokemon? You can't, because we cannot fully determine just what the ramifications for adding or removing a Pokemon are until the act has been done. If we could, there would be no need for testing in the first place. All we can do is see what we currently have and act appropriately using the given characteristics. This means banning whatever fulfills the characteristics, whether we think it'll make a "better" metagame or not.

 

[Sonneh]

Well if that's the case why isn't Hippopotas banned? Ever faced a Curse Regirock in the sand before?

Seriously, just "it has autoweather" is not an argument. The fact the auto-weather has been deemed "not broken" over and over and over again without Froslass means the only thing pushing him over the edge is Froslass. Remove that and he's fine.

if that's the case then nominate it bl material for support characteristics. by the way, auto weather is an argument because of the amount of support its providing. answer this question: does it not fit the description when we're talking about support characteristics. doesn't snover make an easier sweep for its fellow hail members? of course it does, therefore it is a candidate for support despite its bad stats.

maybe the fact hail has far more pokemon who take advantage of the benefits of hail compared to sandstorm makes snover a more convincing suspect than hippo.

 

[d2m]

How can you say for certain that banning Froslass over Snover will create a more balanced and healthy metagame? How can you say that for any Pokemon? You can't, because we cannot fully determine just what the ramifications for adding or removing a Pokemon are until the act has been done. If we could, there would be no need for testing in the first place. All we can do is see what we currently have and act appropriately using the given characteristics. This means banning whatever fulfills the characteristics, whether we think it'll make a "better" metagame or not.

My point is it HAS been done. Maybe you weren't aware of it, but until recently, Froslass was banned. While Froslass was removed from the metagame, Hail was a viable but not broken team type. It was somewhat under-represented due to lacking the pure power of Rain or Sun. ONLY once Froslass was re-introduced did any mention of hail being a BL or even powerful strategy emerge.

if that's the case then nominate it bl material for support characteristics. by the way, auto weather is an argument because of the amount of support its providing. answer this question: does it not fit the description when we're talking about support characteristics. doesn't snover make an easier sweep for its fellow hail members? of course it does, therefore it is a candidate for support despite its bad stats.

maybe the fact hail has far more pokemon who take advantage of the benefits of hail compared to sandstorm makes snover a more convincing suspect than hippo.

Look at OU, there are 3 Auto weather pokes there (Abomasnow, Hippo, Tyranitar) and 0 bitching about it.

Auto-weather is something you have to play around. If you're running a Rain team and you see Snover, then you know you should formulate a strategy to kill off Snover before setting up Rain (that and Kabutops viciously violates Hail teams, but I digress). Also, the only thing that Hail does is improve his teammates' ability to STALL not Sweep. The only sweep arguments you have are Glaceon and Froslass and both can be easily tanked by Milotic or any other bulky Ice-resist (Modest specs Froslass is doing (24.37% - 28.93%) with Blizzard). Stallrein and Snow Cloak Froslass are the only 2 very noticeable benefits and neither of those is going to "sweep with little effort" although their survivability spikes way up.

 

[Pink]

How can you say for certain that banning Froslass over Snover will create a more balanced and healthy metagame? How can you say that for any Pokemon? You can't, because we cannot fully determine just what the ramifications for adding or removing a Pokemon are until the act has been done. If we could, there would be no need for testing in the first place. All we can do is see what we currently have and act appropriately using the given characteristics. This means banning whatever fulfills the characteristics, whether we think it'll make a "better" metagame or not.

We can see that banning either one will have an expected effect and judge from their. In this case it's insanely easy to see that banning Frosslass will have a much better effect that banning Snover. As mentioned, Frosslass isn't bringing an entire form of play into the game. Snover is. And, as I mentioned in my tl;dr post, without Frosslass, Snover isn't nearly as "broken" as Frosslass is without Snover.

if that's the case then nominate it bl material for support characteristics. by the way, auto weather is an argument because of the amount of support its providing. answer this question: does it not fit the description when we're talking about support characteristics. doesn't snover make an easier sweep for its fellow hail members? of course it does, therefore it is a candidate for support despite its bad stats.

Do you have any actual play experience in any metagame? You have to consider that these characteristics make it substantially easier to sweep IN A BROKEN WAY. Killing their Blissey makes it easier to sweep for my Latias. Does that mean killing Blissey is broken and should be banned? Because that's basically what you're arguing. Also, does Snover even help in a broken way? In my opinion, hell no.

 

[BurtonEarny]

My point is it HAS been done. Maybe you weren't aware of it, but until recently, Froslass was banned. While Froslass was removed from the metagame, Hail was a viable but not broken team type. It was somewhat under-represented due to lacking the pure power of Rain or Sun. ONLY once Froslass was re-introduced did any mention of hail being a BL or even powerful strategy emerge.



Look at OU, there are 3 Auto weather pokes there (Abomasnow, Hippo, Tyranitar) and 0 bitching about it.

Auto-weather is something you have to play around. If you're running a Rain team and you see Snover, then you know you should formulate a strategy to kill off Snover before setting up Rain (that and Kabutops viciously violates Hail teams, but I digress). Also, the only thing that Hail does is improve his teammates' ability to STALL not Sweep. The only sweep arguments you have are Glaceon and Froslass and both can be easily tanked by Milotic or any other bulky Ice-resist. Stallrein and Snow Cloak Froslass are the only 2 very noticeable benefits and neither of those is going to "sweep with little effort" although their survivability spikes way up.

But we have never given froslass a chance without hail. We did at the beginning of the test in a way, but she wasn't the overwhelming BL everyone anticipated. If we have tried snover without froslass why cant we try froslass without snover?

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I could have sworn it was a word, but dictionary.com says it's nonstandard... Guess I'll have to find another word to use then.

I think "irrespective of..." is the kind of thing you're looking for here.

Anyway I'm just posting to say that nearly broken means nothing as far as this discussion is concerned. A Pokemon that can be described as nearly broken is one that is very useful competitively without actually breaking anything, and those Pokemon are the best possible kind for the metagame.

It does seem that Froslass will end up being the one declared BL, and should this happen, I would like to declare my support in favor of an Abomasnow re-test. Say what you like about its supporting and stalling capabilities or whatever else, the fact remains that if Froslass is correctly deemed to be broken, Abomasnow NEVER got a fair test; plain and simple.

 

[MagicMaster87]

My point is it HAS been done. Maybe you weren't aware of it, but until recently, Froslass was banned. While Froslass was removed from the metagame, Hail was a viable but not broken team type. It was somewhat under-represented due to lacking the pure power of Rain or Sun. ONLY once Froslass was re-introduced did any mention of hail being a BL or even powerful strategy emerge.

My last post was not about this particular case of Froslass vs Snover, it was more about your comment that we ban things to create a "balanced and healthy" meta. But you can't 100% rely on past results either. Things change; new movesets or Pokemon become popular, other Pokemon are added or removed from the tier, etc.. While it's a good indication of how things will probably turn out, it shouldn't be the main argument for banning a Pokemon.

Note that I'm not trying to argue that Snover is the one that is broken and needs to be banned. I am only arguing about the "philosophy" of banning Pokemon in general, if you will.

 

[d2m]

But we have never given froslass a chance without hail. We did at the beginning of the test in a way, but she wasn't the overwhelming BL everyone anticipated. If we have tried snover without froslass why cant we try froslass without snover?

That is only based on the assumption that Froslass is only used with Snover, when in fact it is overwhelmingly not. We're experiencing both right now, Snover doesn't have to be banned to test Froslass, I'm going to wait for the statistics, but based on my experience, an overwhelming amount of teams that run Froslass don't have Snover.

 

[Bluewind]

yes in a broken way. froslass and walrein are really broken under hail and anyone who plays hail understands it. also, snover helping in a broken way is not the description. read it again. it says, proving support to make it easier for its sweepers (walrein and froslass).

First of all by no means are Froslass or Walrein sweepers (well Froslass could be one but I think you get the point as I do get yours), they abuse their hail advantages and stall on their own way. In spite of that, I do believe a lot of that is being hyped, and even though I do believe Froslass is BL, dragging Walrein down with her and labelling Snover as broken is not logical at all, as good part of this brokeness is being caused by the fact none took the time to prepare for these kind of playstyle; and preparing does not mean using random rain dancer. I believe there should be further testing to determine who is and who isn't the real broken poké, because if we spend 2 months testing pokés like Gallade it makes no sense that in 1 week it's decided whether a whole playstyle will die in the tier or not; but that's just me.

 

[Pink]

yes in a broken way. froslass and walrein are really broken under hail and anyone who plays hail understands it. also, snover helping in a broken way is not the description. read it again. it says, proving support to make it easier for its sweepers (walrein and froslass).

Then, again, killing Blissey should be banned by your logic, because that provides support to make it easier for my Latias to sweep. I don't see any logical argument in your posts. And in fact, I find Walrein to be far from broken, as I play him on a Hail team in NU and have an easy time dealing with him.

 

[capefeather]

Oh man lots of discussion going on.

All I was trying to say with my previous post was not to make such hasty decisions on whether to ban Froslass or Snover. I did say that the decision is ultimately arbitrary, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's a bad thing, especially if we don't want to ban both Snover and Froslass.

I think people should remember that there actually isn't supposed to be an "independent variable" concept, especially in this metagame where the banlist is supposed to be built by subtraction from the allowed UU list. Had Smogon discussions gone differently, we might have had a metagame containing Froslass, with the Snover line banned, and in this case Snover would be the BL dropdown and thus the independent variable, and UU Hail probably wouldn't have existed until then.

However, I do believe there is a different reason to suggest that Froslass should be the banned Pokémon, which others have alluded to but failed to use explicitly. This reason is that Froslass provides a global benefit (like Stealth Rock does), while Snover benefits only certain types of teams, a local benefit. Thus, banning Froslass will probably have a less "biased" effect than banning Snover will. I suppose this is what the people calling to ban Froslass are really getting at.

I'm also beginning to think that the Uber characteristics are becoming stale/outdated. People are starting to take them way too literally, and the Support Characteristic seems to have become the "backup" characteristic in case you argue for a different characteristic and an opponent takes that characteristic more literally than you would like. However, I suppose I shouldn't go too deeply into this in this thread...

@ Heysup: We're not "overlooking" Froslass's ability out of hail. If she's broken outside of hail, she's broken, OK. If she's not broken outside of hail, then she's arguably has as much of a right to stay as Snover does no matter how good she actually is (though I think the above point is a good point to make to choose to ban Froslass).

@ Pink: I don't know about others, but my post was about Snover and Froslass, and Snover and Froslass alone. If they are broken together then that's a problem; this has nothing to do with Walrein. I also don't think anyone said that both should be banned necessarily.

@ Pink again: You keep saying that the metagame would be more improved by banning Froslass than by banning Snover... If this were such an obvious and objective statement then doesn't that mean that Froslass is broken outside of hail anyway? And if Froslass is NOT broken outside of hail, who are you to pick and choose which metagame we should play?

@ d2m: Evidently, Curse Regirock is not considered broken even in sandstorm. I mean, wouldn't we be talking about it if it was? The point was never about the auto-weather; it was about auto-weather in conjunction with Froslass.

 

[Flamewheeler]

the problem with your posts about this is that you think froslass is BL without hail. we're assuming (for the sake of debate) that froslass isn't broken without hail but is broken with hail, and trying to figure out what should be banned. there shouldn't be a *single* person in this thread that disagrees with the argument "assuming froslass is broken in hail and out of hail, it should be banned". please pretty please -- i pointed this out in my last post and you're still making arguments that ignore the most fundamental assumption of this debate.

Ok, I don't feel like I'm ignoring anything. All I said was that the 'debate' was annoying. And yes, I do think Froslass is broken in AND out of hail. I don't want an argument out of all this, but just picking out my posts can get quite annoying. I think the debating is foolish and possibly uneeded. We all know, whether we choose to accept it or not, that indeed, Froslass IS broken, no matter what condition she is played under. This is just my opinion, I repeat, this is just my opinion.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, you just happened to be the last post stating this, but that is a terrible way for anyone to think. You don't ban one Pokemon over another to keep the viability of other Pokemon intact or reduce the viability of others. You ban Pokemon based on whether that Pokemon itself is broken, whether in sweeping other Pokemon, stalling other Pokemon, or in providing the necessary support to allow other Pokemon to do either one (when without said support they could not do so). If that causes some Pokemon to become useless as a result, too bad for those Pokemon.

Froslass IS broken period.

If were going to use that reasoning, hell lets bring back Yanmega, hey why not Crobat too? Ban snover, fuck everything else that he keeps semi-viable. Ok, bring back Crobat, fuck the half of the tier he shuts down or bring back Yanmega, fuck offense! Seriously...I know it wasn't to pick at me, but don't criticize someone's reasoning and then reason with something equally as 'bad'.

However, I do believe there is a different reason to suggest that Froslass should be the banned Pokémon, which others have alluded to but failed to use explicitly. This reason is that Froslass provides a global benefit (like Stealth Rock does), while Snover benefits only certain types of teams, a local benefit. Thus, banning Froslass will probably have a less "biased" effect than banning Snover will. I suppose this is what the people calling to ban Froslass are really getting at.

Beautifully said, kudos.

 

[Scoopapa]

I don't think Articuno is a good idea on a hail stall team, as Froslass and Walrein benefit much more from hail, and if you're using them (and Snover) you already have three Ice types. Articuno definitely stalls like a champ when SR is gone, but I think it has a better place on a stall team that doesn't carry multiple redundant weaknesses. That said, it's a great counter to Hail teams in a number of ways.

First, Ice has a weakness to Fighting, so many Hail teams will choose a Stealth Rocker who isn't Fighting weak. Many of these are Ground-types (useful on hail teams for Rock resist), so Articuno can help itself against Stealth Rock with STAB Ice Beam. Second, if you manage to keep those rocks away (if you're running Articuno you should have a team that can do so) then Walrein cannot budge Articuno, as Hail immunity, Roar, Roost, Pressure, and Heal Bell mean that Walrein is going to run out of Toxic or Super Fang without taking down Articuno. Third, Articuno can take Blizzard from just about anything (+nature Spec's Glaceon Blizzard will 2HKO, neutral nature only has a 15% chance - SubRoost versions are faster and can Roost to gain a resist) and will drain 1/4 of it's PP each turn. I'm not suggesting throwing Articuno on your team just for security against hail (Articuno requires a lot of team support), I'm just pointing out something I've noticed during my own usage of Articuno.

 

[Mrobinson587]

I don't see how Walrein is broken by any means under hail, which is what you just proposed. I haven't seen any post in this thread about Walrein being broken with hail, as there are many ways to combat it. Taunt and Encore being the immediate solutions.

I don't have much experience with UU, and I am looking at this argument from a Philosophical stand point, and considering the arguments and evidence provided in this thread.

You have to have multiple pokemon that can do %60 to Stallrein. It's got pretty good bulk
Lets take Sub Protect Roar Toxic.
Umbreon is the only viable taunter with recovery that can take a hit from Wallrein. Frosslass is another viable taunter due to it taking advantage of the hail.
Clefable is the only viable Encorer. Alakazam Has both and recover but can't take a hit and can only really run encore on a lead set. It would be a one time counter and one could simply switch Walrein.

Most others don't really have room for taunt on their movesets. I mean I guess you could run a taunt and leftovers on toxicroak but then it kinda has crappy power

I have more to say to support my statement but I have work now so it will have to wait

 

[Heysup]

It does seem that Froslass will end up being the one declared BL, and should this happen, I would like to declare my support in favor of an Abomasnow re-test. Say what you like about its supporting and stalling capabilities or whatever else, the fact remains that if Froslass is correctly deemed to be broken, Abomasnow NEVER got a fair test; plain and simple.

Not that I disagree with you, but:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1762886&postcount=44

This is probably the best written nomination I've seen, and it clearly describes why, in every way, Abomasnow is broken. Even when disregarding Froslass, Walrein, and "hail teams" as a whole.

This is the reason we could justify banning Abomasnow, and it clearly doesn't apply to Snover.

 

[d2m]

Not that I disagree with you, but:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1762886&postcount=44

This is probably the best written nomination I've seen, and it clearly describes why, in every way, Abomasnow is broken. Even when disregarding Froslass, Walrein, and "hail teams" as a whole.

This is the reason we could justify banning Abomasnow, and it clearly doesn't apply to Snover.

Except it doesn't account for HGSS moves, probably the most notable being Aggron who can set up on Abomasnow with ease. It also doesn't account for newer trends, Zam, etc. Looking over his list, it's less than half the meta that Abomasnow could "outstall" and even that's in theory. Add to that the overwhelming number of people not EUM that voted Abomasnow simply for hail, and I think it's enough to give him a fair shake. Hell, we gave Raikou, Froslass, and Crobat retests, why not him?

Also, Robinson: Taunt/Substitute/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch Toxicroak is an amazing set that destroys Walrein as a side benefit.

 

[Stagnant]

Because Abomasnow vote count was 66%+1 I believe and any Pokemon that did not reach that was retested. I think...

 

[Random Pizzaman]

First, Ice has a weakness to Fighting, so many Hail teams will choose a Stealth Rocker who isn't Fighting weak. Many of these are Ground-types (useful on hail teams for Rock resist), so Articuno can help itself against Stealth Rock with STAB Ice Beam. Second, if you manage to keep those rocks away (if you're running Articuno you should have a team that can do so) then Walrein cannot budge Articuno, as Hail immunity, Roar, Roost, Pressure, and Heal Bell mean that Walrein is going to run out of Toxic or Super Fang without taking down Articuno. Third, Articuno can take Blizzard from just about anything (+nature Spec's Glaceon Blizzard will 2HKO, neutral nature only has a 15% chance - SubRoost versions are faster and can Roost to gain a resist) and will drain 1/4 of it's PP each turn. I'm not suggesting throwing Articuno on your team just for security against hail (Articuno requires a lot of team support), I'm just pointing out something I've noticed during my own usage of Articuno.

This. The one Articuno I've faced using my hail team completely stalled me out since I had no rock type attack, and couldn't phaze it.

I think a point we have yet the think about was the precedent set by banning Abomasnow. If I remember right, we near unanimously banned Abomasnow under the support characteristic for setting up infinite hail, and banned Froslass (narrowly) more for spikes as a lead than in hail. So since there (arguably) hasnt been much changes in the metagame that affect the ability to set up infinite hail, why not ban Snover. What is the difference between when we banned Abomasnow and banning Snover, strictly thinking in the support characteristic. (not advocating Snover's banishment here, just making a point).

 

[Mrobinson587]

Also, Robinson: Taunt/Substitute/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch Toxicroak is an amazing set that destroys Walrein as a side benefit.

What speed do you need to for taunt to be effective as with that set you need almost no reason to run speed? Just curious as I'd like to try it.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Froslass IS broken period.

Assuming you mean with and without Hail, that is merely an opinion. Do not try to pass it off as fact. Technically, even with Hail that is an opinion, but it's an unanimous one so it might as well be fact.

If were going to use that reasoning, hell lets bring back Yanmega, hey why not Crobat too? Ban snover, fuck everything else that he keeps semi-viable. Ok, bring back Crobat, fuck the half of the tier he shuts down or bring back Yanmega, fuck offense! Seriously...I know it wasn't to pick at me, but don't criticize someone's reasoning and then reason with something equally as 'bad'.

Why are you twisting my words? It should be very obvious what I meant by "broken Pokemon", but just in case it isn't, I mean a Pokemon that fits the supplied characteristics. Pokemon that fit the Support characteristic are indeed broken for providing the support that makes it so hard to stop the supported Pokemon.

 

[d2m]

What speed do you need to for taunt to be effective as with that set you need almost no reason to run speed? Just curious as I'd like to try it.

I ran 58 HP/ 252 Atk / 200 Spe Jolly. Outsped positive base 80s.

 

[Heysup]

Except it doesn't account for HGSS moves, probably the most notable being Aggron who can set up on Abomasnow with ease. It also doesn't account for newer trends, Zam, etc. Looking over his list, it's less than half the meta that Abomasnow could "outstall" and even that's in theory. Add to that the overwhelming number of people not EUM that voted Abomasnow simply for hail, and I think it's enough to give him a fair shake. Hell, we gave Raikou, Froslass, and Crobat retests, why not him?

Read the nom. Aggron can't do anything to Abomasnow really. It comes in on Leech Seed or Sub, and gets stalled to hell and back. Not to mention, Aggron can't do anything now to Abomasnow that it couldn't do before....

Zam is easily OHKOed by Wood Hammer, and not to mention the fact that the addition of Alakazam isn't going to outweigh the fact that Staraptor (U-turn owned Abomasnow), Crobat (Again, U-turn, but also Taunt / Roost), Shaymin (switches in and OHKOes with HP Fire or Air Slash) are gone. It would be foolish to think so anyway.

Raikou and Froslass got retests because of some stupid and horribly unnecessary voting policy complication. We should be thankful that Abomasnow didn't get retested.

This is slightly off topic, but it's in response to the Abomasnow retest:

Am I the only one that wants a stable metagame? I mean, everyone is saying "lets retest everything! You only don't want to because you liked the previous metagames!", but look how far that has gotten us. We have actually gone backwards. So I say enough with these "retests" until we have a stable metagame, which we clearly don't atm. All of the suspects can get their retests once the metagame has reached a point where it could possibly handle them being dropped in.

 

[Pink]

@ Pink: I don't know about others, but my post was about Snover and Froslass, and Snover and Froslass alone. If they are broken together then that's a problem; this has nothing to do with Walrein. I also don't think anyone said that both should be banned necessarily.

@ Pink again: You keep saying that the metagame would be more improved by banning Froslass than by banning Snover... If this were such an obvious and objective statement then doesn't that mean that Froslass is broken outside of hail anyway? And if Froslass is NOT broken outside of hail, who are you to pick and choose which metagame we should play?

First, I was addressing one particular post that said Walrein should be banned. So there was substance for this claim.

Also, you're not understanding how this works. It's obvious that if we were to chose to ban one pokemon, Snover or Frosslass, Frosslass is the obvious choice. Based solely on the characteristics of a BL Pokemon, Frosslass fits them much more than Snover does. Also, if we have to chose one Pokemon to ban, why would we chose the one that has incredibly unintimidating stats, and the only benefit it has on any team is to provide hail. After that, it's useless. Yes, it could be the support characteristics, but the benefits go to one pokemon in particular who was already considered suspect without hail. Wanting to ban Snover because Frosslass is that much better is like wanting to ban T-tar and the Hippos because they make Garchomp that much better.

It's an easy decision to make. Remove the pokemon that's more broken. In this case, it's Frosslass. If Snover is still considered broken after that, then that's another topic, but for now, it's obvious Frosslass is the greater suspect of the two.

 

[Stagnant]

I honestly don't care about a 'stable' metagame because a 'stable' metagame is completely subjective. All I truly desire is to be able to use as many Pokemon as possible without extreme centralization. The only three Pokemon that I feel do this in the BL and Lower tiers is Staraptor (Offensive/ Support), Abomasnow (Support), and Shaymin (Support).

Froslass is annoying but limits my team no more than Stealth Rock does. FFS, Stealth Rock is a one time move and it hampers teams more than Froslass could ever do.

Eh, yeah.

 

[d2m]

Read the nom. Aggron can't do anything to Abomasnow really. It comes in on Leech Seed or Sub, and gets stalled to hell and back. Not to mention, Aggron can't do anything now to Abomasnow that it couldn't do before....

Zam is easily OHKOed by Wood Hammer, and not to mention the fact that the addition of Alakazam isn't going to outweigh the fact that Staraptor (U-turn owned Abomasnow), Crobat (Again, U-turn, but also Taunt / Roost), Shaymin (switches in and OHKOes with HP Fire or Air Slash) are gone. It would be foolish to think so anyway.

Raikou and Froslass got retests because of some stupid and horribly unnecessary voting policy complication. We should be thankful that Abomasnow didn't get retested.

This is slightly off topic, but it's in response to the Abomasnow retest:

Am I the only one that wants a stable metagame? I mean, everyone is saying "lets retest everything! You only don't want to because you liked the previous metagames!", but look how far that has gotten us. We have actually gone backwards. So I say enough with these "retests" until we have a stable metagame, which we clearly don't atm. All of the suspects can get their retests once the metagame has reached a point where it could possibly handle them being dropped in.

Zam outspeeds and Encores his Substitute/Leech Seed then proceeds to easily 2HKO Abomasnow or OHKO with Focus Blast/HP Fire. Not to mention Clefable walling him to hell. Uxie, Mespirit, and Moltres are well known to U-Turn as well, which, as you put it, own Abomasnow. Most eams have at least one of the 5 I've already mentioned, it shouldn't be as much a problem as you or EUM made it out to be.