A New Ice Age?- UU Hail Discussion

[Heysup]

Essentially the more Ghosts you use, the more weak to Raikou you are, and the less prepared you are for other Pokemon as well. Especially because poison types can just come in and absorb Toxic Spikes, so spinning isn't "necessary" (though it helps) before Raikou comes in. In fact Poison/Grass types lol at Omastar, which also gives them an easy switch in.

In any event, Toxic Spikes can and will be removed by any decent battler (assuming they use Raikou).

 

[d2m]

Essentially the more Ghosts you use, the more weak to Raikou you are, and the less prepared you are for other Pokemon as well. Especially because poison types can just come in and absorb Toxic Spikes, so spinning isn't "necessary" (though it helps) before Raikou comes in. In fact Poison/Grass types lol at Omastar, which also gives them an easy switch in.

In any event, Toxic Spikes can and will be removed by any decent battler (assuming they use Raikou).

You seem to be forgetting Omastar's SpA and access to Blizzard, that will make a grass type think twice about switching in.

 

[Heysup]

You seem to be forgetting Omastar's SpA and access to Blizzard, that will make a grass type think twice about switching in.

If it's spiking? Even if it gets hit by blizzard, it will soak up the current Toxic Spikes, and guess who comes in and sweeps after that? Raikou. Omastar is pure set up bait for Raikou by definition of "set up bait".

If you're using double-ghost like you suggest, your team is Snover, Ghost, Froslass, Omastar, Walrein...........and something that isn't named Chansey. Raikou absolutely plows through that team.

Also, Blizzard Omastar is shut down hard by an opposing Froslass, Surf does like 45% iirc.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Raikou is not a problem pokemon for hail Heysup... please do not act as though it is. If hail teams are being swept by it, then they are playing their hail teams wrong. The same special walls that beat him out of hail beat him in it and there is absolutely no reason to lose to a raikou with hail stall at all if you prepare for it.

You are really stepping on your toes about spinning since at the beginning of the test you were so sold on the fact that spinning was easy to prevent and wasn't going to happen against a "good" player ... Now that you need to spin for your claims to have ground it is "stupidly easy." So were you wrong about all the things you said before on the basis of spinning being impossible, or are you wrong now?

I have no idea what kind of hail teams your facing heysup, but your making it out as though they are just 6 ice types begging for something that can hit hard to massacre them and you really should know better.

My final question to you heysup is this: If hail is so easy to play around and beat, then why does it make up a portion of the top teams in the uu ladder right now? Everyone admits to it being a strong team type, and really you cant argue against the results...

 

[Heysup]

Raikou is not a problem pokemon for hail Heysup... please do not act as though it is. If hail teams are being swept by it, then they are playing their hail teams wrong. The same special walls that beat him out of hail beat him in it and there is absolutely no reason to lose to a raikou with hail stall at all if you prepare for it.

You're going to have to do better than "Raikou is not a problem for hail teams, and stop saying it is". You have zero evidence or reasoning for this claim, and I have shown mine.

And what special walls? Chansey? Registeel? You want to put Chansey and Registeel on a team full of Ice-types....good luck. Especially since Registeel is a check at best with Spikes and hail in play.

You are really stepping on your toes about spinning since at the beginning of the test you were so sold on the fact that spinning was easy to prevent and wasn't going to happen against a "good" player ... Now that you need to spin for your claims to have ground it is "stupidly easy." So were you wrong about all the things you said before on the basis of spinning being impossible, or are you wrong now?

I was pretty clear when I said:

On every team I've used I've found it stupidly easy to Spin against Hail. Not only that; I don't ever give hail teams any chance to set up Tspikes.

I'm surprised it took people so long to say this, but I made sure to be specific when I said "on Hail teams". Hail's biggest problem is the fact that it doesn't have room for Spin Blockers other than Froslass without being horribly weak to something (like Raikou, which it is ironically trying to beat by keeping Toxic Spikes on the field). It doesn't have room for "powerful wallbreakers" to keep Pokemon like Kabutops, Blastoise, or hell, even Donphan can find a chance to spin on a <insert non-ice-type Pokemon>. For hail to be remotely successful, they need to use Snover, Froslass, and Walrein. That's 3 slots for stuff to beat Raikou/Honchkrow/Gallade in particular, Block Spin, Rapid Spin, set up SR, block Fire-type attacks, block Fighting-type attacks, block Rock-type attacks, Block Steel-type attacks, blocking "strong" Electric-type attacks.....with hail in play.

So I was right then, and I am right now, to answer your question.

Then I'm just lucky everyone who's playing hail sux amirite. Obviously I've played some people who may not be as good as the "best hail players", but people claiming it's broken because of "hail" are horribly false because "hail" isn't broken. I've also beaten many of the top players too, but I don't get to see #1-5 (assuming I'm still 6th..) often.

My final question to you heysup is this: If hail is so easy to play around and beat, then why does it make up a portion of the top teams in the uu ladder right now? Everyone admits to it being a strong team type, and really you cant argue against the results...

Because it's new? It's good? I didn't say it isn't good at all. I'm just saying it's overrated (which were my exact words). Also, consider who's playing those teams (IPL and Xianglongfa are usually up there regardless of what team they use).

And I'm hoping for the sake of this thread that the question you just asked wasn't your "final" question...

EDIT: Lol fixed the typo's of Heysup in the quote boxes hah.

 

[BurtonEarny]

You're going to have to do better than "Raikou is not a problem for hail teams, and stop saying it is". You have zero evidence or reasoning for this claim, and I have shown mine.

And what special walls? Chansey? Registeel? You want to put Chansey and Registeel on a team full of Ice-types....good luck. Especially since Registeel is a check at best with Spikes and hail in play.

I'm surprised it took people so long to say this, but I made sure to be specific when I said "on Hail teams". Hail's biggest problem is the fact that it doesn't have room for Spin Blockers other than Froslass without being horribly weak to something (like Raikou, which it is ironically trying to beat by keeping Toxic Spikes on the field). It doesn't have room for "powerful wallbreakers" to keep Pokemon like Kabutops, Blastoise, or hell, even Donphan can find a chance to spin on a <insert non-ice-type Pokemon>. For hail to be remotely successful, they need to use Snover, Froslass, and Walrein. That's 3 slots for stuff to beat Raikou/Honchkrow/Gallade in particular, Block Spin, Rapid Spin, set up SR, block Fire-type attacks, block Fighting-type attacks, block Rock-type attacks, Block Steel-type attacks, blocking "strong" Electric-type attacks.....with hail in play.

So I was right then, and I am right now, to answer your question.

Then I'm just lucky everyone who's playing hail sux amirite. Obviously I've played some people who may not be as good as the "best hail players", but people claiming it's broken because of "hail" are horribly false because "hail" isn't broken. I've also beaten many of the top players too, but I don't get to see #1-5 (assuming I'm still 6th..) often.

Because it's new? It's good? I didn't say it isn't good at all. I'm just saying it's overrated (which were my exact words). Also, consider who's playing those teams (IPL and Xianglongfa are usually up there regardless of what team they use).

And I'm hoping for the sake of this thread that the question you just asked wasn't your "final" question...

Who do you think made the hail team that is #1 right now? Its actually in the top 10 under 2 names and was in the top 5 under 2 names at one point (I fell out of top 5 because I haven't laddered in days and the main reason I didn't hit 1 with it myself was because my deviation was already stupid by the time I made it)... That is how I can say raikou is not a problem, because I know that it isn't. Yes I do use chansey on the team and she works wonderfully. She my 3rd fighting weak counting snover which isn't bad considering the team is "full of fighting weaks"... So no. Hail in no way needs to rely on toxic spikes to beat raikou. The only raikou that beat Chansey is the cm sleep talk versions and those are handled as well.

Your claiming froslass is easy to spin on in hail... but Im not using a frail froslass at all. I'm using a bulky spread with a modified move set. It handles spinners like donphan more than adequately... I just didn't want to leak the froslass I was using yet partially because of its effectiveness in hail and partially because I was asked not to. She can set up spikes multiple times if she needs to so even if spinning happens its not a big deal at all.

Toxic spikes should never be needed to win against an opponent. It really helps make life alot easier, but few things need to be poisoned to defeat though there are a few uncommon pokemon that can beat it unless they are poisoned.

Im on the fence about whether or not shes too good out of hail. Shes good, but people prepare for her to the point that she cant seem to get much done as a spiker lead unless its prolass. Prolass is good, but again... has flaws that are easily exploited because people prepare heavily for her. I honestly think snover and her together are the problem. As long as both aren't in the same tier then they are fine... However, its the "which pokemon do we kick out if neither are broken alone" question that needs to be answered. Froslass is going to affect the meta more (not saying negatively or positively), and will be more useful on more teams... Snover is clearly only as good as he is because of his ability and the pokemon that can exploit it and wont really affect the meta this way again if such a good hail pokemon as froslass was to get the boot. Idk honestly how you would decide who needs to go to make uu "most stable" when one is clearly of more use to the tier than the other but at the same time relies on less useful pokemon to be broken.

Basically I'm unable to decide which pokemon needs to go, snover or froslass... though one of them needs to go.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Maybe something similar to what d2m said could actually be useful here, in that this could be one of those issues where isolation testing could prove to be useful in reaching a solid conclusion. It seems that the ‘Who is to blame?’ question is a very difficult one to answer right now, so I wonder if a couple of short tests with both Froslass and Snover in isolation from each other could help decide things? Another interesting thing to consider is that, if Froslass really is the guilty party, it may not be so ridiculous to consider the possibility that we might all have been wrong about Abomasnow all along. After all, it was never given the chance to be tested in a non-Froslass metagame. What are other people’s opinions on this possibility? I want to hear them.

As for the Raikou talk, I don’t really get it. Doesn’t an easy sweep require prior weakening of Snover / Nidoqueen / Hariyama etc, as well as the complete removal of any Chansey? Not quite sure why good Hail teams would ever get easily swept.

@ Heysup: slightly off-topic, but it looks like you’re quoting and arguing with yourself multiple times lol. Just thought I’d mention that.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Maybe something similar to what d2m said could actually be useful here, in that this could be one of those issues where isolation testing could prove to be useful in reaching a solid conclusion. It seems that the ‘Who is to blame?’ question is a very difficult one to answer right now, so I wonder if a couple of short tests with both Froslass and Snover in isolation from each other could help decide things? Another interesting thing to consider is that, if Froslass really is the guilty party, it may not be so ridiculous to consider the possibility that we might all have been wrong about Abomasnow all along. After all, it was never given the chance to be tested in a non-Froslass metagame. What are other people’s opinions on this possibility? I want to hear them.

As for the Raikou talk, I don’t really get it. Doesn’t an easy sweep require prior weakening of Snover / Nidoqueen / Hariyama etc, as well as the complete removal of any Chansey? Not quite sure why good Hail teams would ever get easily swept.

@ Heysup: slightly off-topic, but it looks like you’re quoting and arguing with yourself multiple times lol. Just thought I’d mention that.

I know Im game for isolation testing because it seems a very good situation to try it. Also, I think it would be cool to retest Abomasnow in uu if Froslass was considered the one that was BL, though in my mind I can see it being overpowered...

 

[Stagnant]

@ Heysup: slightly off-topic, but it looks like you’re quoting and arguing with yourself multiple times lol. Just thought I’d mention that.

I lol'd.

Ugh... Hail teams are undeniably annoying. Admittedly I think I've lost to every one I've come across however I blame that on my team building 'technique'. I've used some poorly constructed teams and still have had 'success' against hail; I didn't win but didn't lose by much either. Now I'm going to turn this against everyone else and bring up that perhaps you are unwilling to adapt your teams to play against hail teams, perhaps. Just a guess. Anytime something new and 'effective' pops up everyone bitches because they are unwilling to adjust. Things that I would assume to be the problem... 'I dont want to use a Rapid Spinner/ there is no good spinners', 'don't want to use a Taunt/ Encore user or two', 'don't want to change...' Or maybe I'm just crazy.

Abomasnow can stay in BL. Unlike Snover he can hurt things and abuse his unique typing defensively. Froslass isn't the problem its the hail.

 

[Heysup]

@ Lemmiwinks:

Haha thanks for pointing that out I mixed the names in the quote boxes up. Arguing against myself seems like something I would do anyway though amirite?

What exactly are Nidoqueen, Hariyama, and a probably already fainted Snover going to do against Raikou with Spikes support (Which are horribly easy to get) with at least +1 in SpA or a Sub...or both.

+1 Tbolt versus Hariyama:
493 Atk vs 156 Def & 449 HP (95 Base Power): 322 - 381 (71.71% - 84.86%) OHKO with Spikes + SR.

+1 Hidden Power Ice versus Nidoqueen:
493 Atk vs 206 Def & 384 HP (70 Base Power): 240 - 284 (62.50% - 73.96%)

Hidden Power Ice versus Nidoqueen:
329 Atk vs 206 Def & 384 HP (70 Base Power): 160 - 190 (41.67% - 49.48%)

2HKOes from behind a Sub after Spikes with or without a Calm Mind.

If you're going to start the "well it can spin the spikes away" argument...just realize that you have left yourself with a very small amount of slots on the team.



@ BnE:

I thought Xianglongfa was #1? Just because you built a successful team does not mean you don't have to support your arguments or counter-arguments. The team you're using is still pretty weak to Raikou, even if you use Chansey (Dugtrio anyone?), but it is a successful hail team. I know about it from xiang (not the details obviously), I also know how effective bulky Froslass is (if you recall, I "made" the set, not that you use the exact moveset).

You're taking what I say to the extreme, and act as if I'm saying "Hail is bad", when I'm only saying "Hail is definitely not as good as it's hyped, and here is what issues it has". I'm just pointing out that Hail, even with Froslass isn't broken, but the reason that it is "good" is because Froslass is broken and it excels in Hail more than usual.

My point about Toxic Spikes was just a counter-argument against "Toxic Spikes always beats Raikou" on hail. If you rely on toxic spikes....well...don't.

Raikou threatens hail teams, and is imo the biggest threat in the metagame atm. Gallade and Honchkrow also manhandle Hail teams, and they are major threats as well. With 3 of the biggest threats quite easily dismantling Hail, I don't see it as remotely "hard to deal with or prepare for".

@ testing:

Why are we trying to figure out who's the "culprit" of hail being hypothetically (because I don't believe hail is actually) broken?

Testing Snover in isolation is a stupid concept. Why? What have we been doing for the past couple months? The only thing to join the metagame that affects hail is.....Froslass. It's quite simple:

Start of Test:
Froslass is present. Hail is broken.
Suspects banned:
Removal of Froslass. Hail is non-existent / terrible.
Currently:
Froslass is present. Hail is "hypothetically broken".

Thus, when Froslass is in UU, hail is broken, when it is gone, hail isn't broken. This means that Froslass is our dependent variable, or "culprit".

So even if Hail was broken, the obvious culprit is Froslass. This makes perfect sense doesn't it? How would anyone not see the connection?

 

[BurtonEarny]

@ BnE: I thought Xianglongfa was #1?

He is, but I made that team and came to him and asked him to try it and tell me what he thought and change anything if he needed to... he was #1 with it pretty much the next day from there we polished it up a bit together and wound up with what we have now (again, my deviation was stupid so I managed to get to 5 before I gave up laddering).

I defended my claim Heysup. Raikou should never sweep a hail team that carries a Chansey and you cant say anything that will change the fact that all of the raikou I have beaten have failed to sweep me (I dont think I have ever been swept by a raikou with that team now that I think about it). Gallade is actually the biggest threat that you have mentioned and even then its best chance to sweep is to be sub bulk up w/ leftovers. Charm is a beautiful thing on Chansey and as soon as Dugtrio becomes a problem... it wont be a problem anymore.

Please dont turn this into a raikou beats hail war. We have too many posts invested in arguing as it is. Im sure you will want a rebuttal on the raikou deal and thats fine... just can we move beyond raikou please? If we go by what you say and a team with multiple answers cannot stop him then no team can reliably stop him that doesn't carry a faster revenge killer and he clearly deserves to be bl for being overpowered and you wouldn't be able to fault hail for being weak to something that every other team is also weak to... moving on.
----------


I'm not taking what you said to the extreme... what you said was froslass was the only reason hail is broken and I'm not so sure that is the case. I get what you are saying about hail being dead when froslass was gone, but I'm not sure its because it was underpowered so much as it lacked an additional pokemon that abused hail. If we took snover out I dont see why froslass couldn't be uu. I personally dont view her as an overpowered bl like I once did... just a pokemon that sits uncomfortably between really good and too good UNLESS she is in hail. Thats the breaking point which makes me want to test a snoverless uu with froslass in it (and we did for about the first 3/4ths of the test and I was getting more and more underwhelmed to be honest)

 

[Heysup]

He is, but I made that team and came to him and asked him to try it and tell me what he thought and change anything if he needed to... he was #1 with it pretty much the next day from there we polished it up a bit together and wound up with what we have now (again, my deviation was stupid so I managed to get to 5 before I gave up laddering).

I thought so, but getting to any rank on the leaderboard still doesn't make your claim right. It means you are good at laddering.

I defended my claim Heysup. Raikou should never sweep a hail team that carries a Chansey and you cant say anything that will change the fact that all of the raikou I have beaten have failed to sweep me (I dont think I have ever been swept by a raikou with that team now that I think about it). Gallade is actually the biggest threat that you have mentioned and even then its best chance to sweep is to be sub bulk up w/ leftovers. Charm is a beautiful thing on Chansey and as soon as Dugtrio becomes a problem... it wont be a problem anymore.

Raikou can easily sweep a hail team without Chansey, or with Dugtrio even if the opponent has Chansey. Charm Chansey doesn't stop Dugtrio from OHKOing it with Beat Up, it even 2HKOes 100% of the time with only 2-3 Pokemon alive (depending on Pokemon). Anything higher than that is almost always a OHKO. I don't know how to calc beat up, but I assure you it's true. Also, if you are OMGolly (xiang told me you were, so that's why I'm assuming you are) I'm pretty sure I have swept you with your hail team with my previous team that got me to ~5th too. I remember that because I saw you (not on OMGolly) use Charm Chansey, and the next time I saw your hail team I beat it with Beat Up Duggy.

Also, Raikou is 1 Pokemon. There are tons of other Pokemon who just plow through Hail teams (Blaziken for example).

I'll gladly move passed Raikou when your argument isn't "Use Chansey", which is not only ridiculous to force someone to do, it is also easily beaten with a counter argument of "Use Dugtrio". "Raikou is overpowered anyway" is not an argument for hail being broken. We didn't ban Yanmega even though we knew it would be broken with it's two major checks / counters banned.

It's also a great comparison of something that is broken (Raikou imo) to something that isn't broken (hail imo).

I'm not taking what you said to the extreme... what you said was froslass was the only reason hail is broken and I'm not so sure that is the case. I get what you are saying about hail being dead when froslass was gone, but I'm not sure its because it was underpowered so much as it lacked an additional pokemon that abused hail. If we took snover out I dont see why froslass couldn't be uu. I personally dont view her as an overpowered bl like I once did... just a pokemon that sits uncomfortably between really good and too good UNLESS she is in hail. Thats the breaking point which makes me want to test a snoverless uu with froslass in it (and we did for about the first 3/4ths of the test and I was getting more and more underwhelmed to be honest)

I did not say hail was broken at all. I said the only reason it's "good" is because Froslass is broken almost undeniably in hail.

Firstly, testing a Snoverless UU is assuming Hail is broken, not Froslass in hail. I disagree with that completely. Froslass is the only thing broken about Hail teams, nothing else even remotely fits the characteristics except for Walrein who is very easy to destroy because of the whole slew of Encore users and more importantly, Rock Blast Cloyster, Aggron, Low Kick Blaziken, etc. Froslass is broken in Hail because of Snow Cloak, which pushes it (further) into "BL status" then it would be in a normal game without hail.

Hail without Froslass has been tested. It is no where near broken. So why would we not just ban Froslass since we know that it fixes the problem? Snover + Froslass = Broken. Hail w/o Froslass = not broken at all. Froslass w/o Hail = BL or "possibly BL" (at worst). Why not ban the Pokemon that breaks the metagame? It's common sense.

If you want to prove that Froslass isn't the factor, then use hail without her. See how that works. Hint: we already know. Froslass is the independent variable. It controls whether hail is "broken" or not according to the evidence that we have been fortunate enough to collect over the passed few months.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I thought so, but getting to any rank on the leaderboard still doesn't make your claim right. It means you are good at laddering.

Raikou can easily sweep a hail team without Chansey, or with Dugtrio even if the opponent has Chansey. Charm Chansey doesn't stop Dugtrio from OHKOing it with Beat Up, it even 2HKOes 100% of the time with only 2-3 Pokemon alive (depending on Pokemon). Anything higher than that is almost always a OHKO. I don't know how to calc beat up, but I assure you it's true. Also, if you are OMGolly (xiang told me you were, so that's why I'm assuming you are) I'm pretty sure I have swept you with your hail team with my previous team that got me to ~5th too. I remember that because I saw you (not on OMGolly) use Charm Chansey, and the next time I saw your hail team I beat it with Beat Up Duggy.

Also, Raikou is 1 Pokemon. There are tons of other Pokemon who just plow through Hail teams (Blaziken for example).

I'll gladly move passed Raikou when your argument isn't "Use Chansey", which is not only ridiculous to force someone to do, it is also easily beaten with a counter argument of "Use Dugtrio". "Raikou is overpowered anyway" is not an argument for hail being broken. We didn't ban Yanmega even though we knew it would be broken with it's two major checks / counters banned.

It's also a great comparison of something that is broken (Raikou imo) to something that isn't broken (hail imo).



I did not say hail was broken at all. I said the only reason it's "good" is because Froslass is broken almost undeniably in hail.

Firstly, testing a Snoverless UU is assuming Hail is broken, not Froslass in hail. I disagree with that completely. Froslass is the only thing broken about Hail teams, nothing else even remotely fits the characteristics except for Walrein who is very easy to destroy because of the whole slew of Encore users and more importantly, Rock Blast Cloyster, Aggron, Low Kick Blaziken, etc. Froslass is broken in Hail because of Snow Cloak, which pushes it (further) into "BL status" then it would be in a normal game without hail.

Hail without Froslass has been tested. It is no where near broken. So why would we not just ban Froslass since we know that it fixes the problem? Snover + Froslass = Broken. Hail w/o Froslass = not broken at all. Froslass w/o Hail = BL or "possibly BL" (at worst). Why not ban the Pokemon that breaks the metagame? It's common sense.

If you want to prove that Froslass isn't the factor, then use hail without her. See how that works. Hint: we already know. Froslass is the independent variable. It controls whether hail is "broken" or not according to the evidence that we have been fortunate enough to collect over the passed few months.

I'm not using success on the leaderboard to back my claim. Im using experience I gained laddering to back my claim.

Heysup... you have never once swept me or even ko'd a pokemon of mine with a beat up dugtrio, and nor has a dugtrio I have ever seen carried beat up which would be something you would remember. On top of that I have already told you that I cant recall a time being swept by a raikou either (that isn't as easy to recall but I remember beating dozens). So, no you haven't played me with that team.

About the Froslass v. Snover debate. Froslass is a viable pokemon in uu without hail... one I feel doesn't completely fit the support characteristic. She is a very good uu, but not one I feel is utterly game breaking. However, her in hail IS... That makes hail the problem, not Froslass. Why should we ban a pokemon that isn't broken by itself and is actually useful over a pokemon that isn't broken by itself but only has limited usefulness? If froslass isn't broken out of hail, and I don't really feel that she is, then I don't see why she should be removed from uu because another pokemon causes her to be too powerful.

 

[d2m]

I'm not using success on the leaderboard to back my claim. Im using experience I gained laddering to back my claim.

Heysup... you have never once swept me or even ko'd a pokemon of mine with a beat up dugtrio, and nor has a dugtrio I have ever seen carried beat up which would be something you would remember. On top of that I have already told you that I cant recall a time being swept by a raikou either (that isn't as easy to recall but I remember beating dozens). So, no you haven't played me with that team.

About the Froslass v. Snover debate. Froslass is a viable pokemon in uu without hail... one I feel doesn't completely fit the support characteristic. She is a very good uu, but not one I feel is utterly game breaking. However, her in hail IS... That makes hail the problem, not Froslass. Why should we ban a pokemon that isn't broken by itself and is actually useful over a pokemon that isn't broken by itself but only has limited usefulness? If froslass isn't broken out of hail, and I don't really feel that she is, then I don't see why she should be removed from uu because another pokemon causes her to be too powerful.

I see it the opposite way: Why not ban one Pokemon that causes an entire team strategy to be BL in order to preserve the ability to use that team structure in UU?

Abomasnow was voted BL for it's ability to set up SD or Leech Seed on bulky water with impunity combined with Froslass/Hail. If you vote Snover BL because Froslass breaks hail, then you eliminate the ability for Hail teams to exist in UU and thus eliminate Walrein, Glalie, etc from being any kind of useful. So you have the choice between banning one situationally UU pokemon, or gimping at least 4 I can think of.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

What exactly are Nidoqueen, Hariyama, and a probably already fainted Snover going to do against Raikou with Spikes support (Which are horribly easy to get) with at least +1 in SpA or a Sub...or both.

+1 Tbolt versus Hariyama:
493 Atk vs 156 Def & 449 HP (95 Base Power): 322 - 381 (71.71% - 84.86%) OHKO with Spikes + SR.

+1 Hidden Power Ice versus Nidoqueen:
493 Atk vs 206 Def & 384 HP (70 Base Power): 240 - 284 (62.50% - 73.96%)

Hidden Power Ice versus Nidoqueen:
329 Atk vs 206 Def & 384 HP (70 Base Power): 160 - 190 (41.67% - 49.48%)

2HKOes from behind a Sub after Spikes with or without a Calm Mind.

If you're going to start the "well it can spin the spikes away" argument...just realize that you have left yourself with a very small amount of slots on the team.

Why no special defense investment on Hariyama, as opposed to max? How convenient, and downright stupid too. I also don't see why Snover would necessarily be already dead, that is also a dead convenient assumption.

Charm is a beautiful thing on Chansey and as soon as Dugtrio becomes a problem... it wont be a problem anymore.

Wait a minute, how is Charm at all legal with Seismic Toss again? AFAIK, this must be a Shoddy programming oversight.

Hail w/o Froslass = not broken at all.

In that case, do you believe that Abomasnow is BL for its own particular attributes, i.e. stats, movepool, typing etc? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just asking because I'm curious.

 

[Boingo]

Wait a minute, how is Charm at all legal with Seismic Toss again? AFAIK, this must be a Shoddy programming oversight.

Seismic Toss is a Gen.3 Tutor move; Charm is learned only by Happiny, a Gen.4 Pokémon.

 

[capefeather]

This topic seems to have gotten rather angry lately over essentially nothing. I honestly don't want to name names, but I will say that since Froslass was a BL dropdown (and thus a somewhat controversial potential suspect) I don't think an argument based on "Froslass is probably broken outside of hail" is anywhere near solid, and far from an "obvious" conclusion. The point is that IF Froslass is not BL outside of hail, then we do have a very real conundrum here because we would have two elements that aren't broken alone but are broken together. Also, if BE and Xianglongfa aren't having trouble with Raikou, well, they're not having trouble with Raikou. Sorry...? I just think people are jumping to conclusions about each other's stances.

I got in on the hail team action two days ago, and I must say that hail is pretty great even without Froslass, and then with Froslass spiking it up and dodging attacks, grounded opponents are softened up by ridiculous amounts. However, I'm finding it hard to put in many good resistances. I'm pretty sure I'm not all that qualified to say much more on the subject, having only two days' experience with using a hail team. I'm not even sure I said anything really substantial lol.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Seismic Toss is a Gen.3 Tutor move; Charm is learned only by Happiny, a Gen.4 Pokémon.

Exactly, so the two moves are illegal together. Unless there is some other method of getting either move that we're not aware of.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Exactly, so the two moves are illegal together. Unless there is some other method of getting either move that we're not aware of.

Idk if its an oversight or not, but it lets you have them both on Shoddy...

 

[MagicMaster87]

Idk if its an oversight or not, but it lets you have them both on Shoddy...

Shoddy also allowed Wish/Heal Bell before HG/SS was even known about, even though they were also incompatible. Shoddy isn't a reliable source.

Also, I've double-checked on Serebii, there is still currently no legal way for Seismic Toss and Charm to be on the same moveset.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Shoddy also allowed Wish/Heal Bell before HG/SS was even known about, even though they were also incompatible. Shoddy isn't a reliable source.

Also, I've double-checked on Serebii, there is still currently no legal way for Seismic Toss and Charm to be on the same moveset.

I wasn't justifying it at all... I was just saying shoddy allowed it.

 

[imperfectluck]

seriously guys it's not that hard to beat hail... hail has to devote so many slots to a few pokemon that it becomes very throttled for other teammate options

oh no snover can switch in on 'bulky waters' something that can threaten milotic? ban

raikou's unboosted tbolt can do like 40% to snover, about its only safe switches are water types like milotic

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

raikou's unboosted tbolt can do like 40% to snover, about its only safe switches are water types like milotic

252 SpA Timid Raikou's Thunderbolt vs. 168 HP / 252 SpD Careful Snover: 23.10 - 27.39%

This is not to discredit your opinion on Hail in any way, I'm just picking you up on this individual point.

 

[Heysup]

I'm not using success on the leaderboard to back my claim. Im using experience I gained laddering to back my claim.

That's not how it works unfortunately. You can use experience, but that only goes so far when you are confronted with hard evidence.

Why no special defense investment on Hariyama, as opposed to max? How convenient, and downright stupid too. I also don't see why Snover would necessarily be already dead, that is also a dead convenient assumption.

Hariyma: I took the spread from the analysis + stats (I'll admit, stats aren't 100% useful). Also consider the fact that Hariyama needs to be stopping other Pokemon (Blaziken and Rhyperior (Major examples)). The more you specialize to beat Raikou with hail, the more you get fucked up by other Pokemon, not to mention still not reliably countering Raikou at all!

Nidoqueen: Nidoqueen always uses max Defense, otherwise it does shit all for walling anything but Raikou (who can still beat it heh). Similar to Hariyama, it needs to take Rock / Fighting attacks which almost always physical.

Snover: Snover is...frail, for lack of a better word. I know it's not "THAT" frail, but it is very frail. If you really want the calcs:

+1 Thunderbolt vs Snover:

493 Atk vs 156 Def & 324 HP (95 Base Power): 161 - 190 (49.69% - 58.64%) (OHKO with Spikes + SR, or 2HKO without any support).

Thunderbolt vs Snover:

329 Atk vs 156 Def & 324 HP (95 Base Power): 108 - 127 (33.33% - 39.20%)

33.33+25-6.25+33.33 = 85% minimum damage with Stealth Rock.

Also, what is Snover going to do versus Raikou exactly? Hope Raikou doesn't Sub and use Leech Seed?

Snover is also more than likely fainted because of its frailness and often lead position.

This topic seems to have gotten rather angry lately over essentially nothing. I honestly don't want to name names, but I will say that since Froslass was a BL dropdown (and thus a somewhat controversial potential suspect) I don't think an argument based on "Froslass is probably broken outside of hail" is anywhere near solid, and far from an "obvious" conclusion. The point is that IF Froslass is not BL outside of hail, then we do have a very real conundrum here because we would have two elements that aren't broken alone but are broken together. Also, if BE and Xianglongfa aren't having trouble with Raikou, well, they're not having trouble with Raikou. Sorry...? I just think people are jumping to conclusions about each other's stances.

Saying "Hail doesn't have trouble with Raikou cause my team is #1 on the ladder" is not a valid reason. They may not have trouble with Raikou, but then they have 2 Pokemon left on their team to cover everything else. Some people who don't have their super awesome Raikou killing skills have problems?

Can I dismiss this argument because I don't have trouble with hail? No. BnE can't either.

seriously guys it's not that hard to beat hail... hail has to devote so many slots to a few pokemon that it becomes very throttled for other teammate options

oh no snover can switch in on 'bulky waters' something that can threaten milotic? ban

raikou's unboosted tbolt can do like 40% to snover, about its only safe switches are water types like milotic

That's pretty much exactly how I feel.

 

[imperfectluck]

ok, so you use max sdef snover, I don't. that opens up raikou to set up on snover though if you switched in on a calm mind or a substitute. careful...

edit: oh ok, wasn't thinking about wood hammer for some reason, it wasn't on my radar.