A New Ice Age?- UU Hail Discussion

[Eo Ut Mortus]

All the pokemon listed easily survive a Blizzard or Wood Hammer even with no defensive investment, so attacking isn't a problem. Not to mention other subseeders can set up in the same way as Abomasnow and all of them are faster...the 6.25% Hail damage is a plus, but the stalling ability is essentially the same.

The difference is that in addition to the Hail factor, Abomasnow has a STAB, SE, 100% accurate Blizzard to deter Grass-types from switching in.

Oh, and on Zam: Your point is that he sub/seeds to stall people, is he really going to scout his switch in by attacking and wasting the chance to sub/seed?

It's not going to have any chance to sub/seed if Alakazam is just going to Encore it, so yes, a competent opponent is not necessarily making a bad play by taking the opportunity to scout his switch-in in such cases.

 

[jamashawalker]

awww i missed all the mayhem and discussion haha.... but what im seeing less of nowadays is less hitmonlee...hitmonlee should still be able to do great as a physical wall breaker and hail breaker...while still frosslass with hail is broken i see that as the only thing standing in hitmonlee's way of sweeping an entire hail team...well you can run bullet punch on hitmonlee heh heh just like ppl are running rock blast on cloyster...bullet punch may be gimmicky but hey frosslass is on the rising..

I guess overall what im saying is that with soo many new styles of playing we have to utilize almost every move a pokemon has the offer...for examples trick defensive mismagius is an absolute stall breaker and as well as encore gardevior/gallade....O and just like the person who made the Bulk up/sub/Drain Punch/shadowsneak/nightslash gallade, thats a really nice set there

 

[Flamewheeler]

I guess overall what im saying is that with soo many new styles of playing we have to utilize almost every move a pokemon has the offer...for examples trick defensive mismagius is an absolute stall breaker and as well as encore gardevior/gallade

I totally agree, creativity and gimmicks (sadly) are what's shaping this new meatagme, and it comes down to being more creative, and having that 'suprise factor' to help you win.

 

[capefeather]

I don't think that we should drop more BL Pokémon back down, at least not yet. The current dropdowns were just the result of a policy change, and I understand that the people who decided this just wanted it to be consistent with Garchomp coming back to Suspect.

Flamewheeler: The situation is basically this:

P1: IF Pokémon A and Pokémon B are broken together, but neither is broken by itself, what do we do?

P2: Pokémon A is broken.

See how silly it sounds? I think it's an important question, even if Froslass is broken outside of hail, because the situation might crop up somewhere else.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Flamewheeler: The situation is basically this:

P1: IF Pokémon A and Pokémon B are broken together, but neither is broken by itself, what do we do?

P2: Pokémon A is broken.

See how silly it sounds? I think it's an important question, even if Froslass is broken outside of hail, because the situation might crop up somewhere else.

Ok, I'm not really getting what you're trying to say here xD. If you're calling my stand on the whole Froslass situation silly, then shame on you. It kind of sounds like you're almost trying to sneakily insult me lol. I just gave my answer to the whole 'broken dilemma'. I said Froslass doesn't need snover to be broken, because she already is. So, my solution was to ban her. I didn't just give a silly' pokemon A is broken'. Honestly, that post struck me as being a bit rude.

 

[capefeather]

Statement 2 has nothing to do with statement 1. Basically, your solution requires Pokémon A to be decidedly broken ("I said Froslass doesn't need snover to be broken, because she already is.") , when the question is "What would we do if it wasn't broken?"

EDIT: Well, since it seems that Froslass is decidedly being deemed broken outside of hail (see poll @ Froslass), this has pretty much become a very theoretical question. Nonetheless, a situation in which two Pokémon are only broken together but not apart could still come up some day, and in that case we probably won't have all this BL dropdown silliness to make the decision easy.

 

[Stagnant]

I totally agree, creativity and gimmicks (sadly) are what's shaping this new meatagme, and it comes down to being more creative, and having that 'suprise factor' to help you win.

You make this seem as if that is a bad thing...

 

[Heysup]

Statement 2 has nothing to do with statement 1. Basically, your solution requires Pokémon A to be decidedly broken ("I said Froslass doesn't need snover to be broken, because she already is.") , when the question is "What would we do if it wasn't broken?"

EDIT: Well, since it seems that Froslass is decidedly being deemed broken outside of hail (see poll @ Froslass), this has pretty much become a very theoretical question. Nonetheless, a situation in which two Pokémon are only broken together but not apart could still come up some day, and in that case we probably won't have all this BL dropdown silliness to make the decision easy.

That is the point. He doesn't want to get into this whole "what if" debate because Froslass is broken out of hail. Even if it isn't the answer you want, it is basically the only way to answer the question.

And if someday there is a similar situation, then fine! We have to judge it as a case-by-case scenario, we can't just always assume the Pokemon starting hail is causing the problem when it doesn't do anything except allow another Pokemon to take advantage of hail to be broken. We can't assume that it isn't either. It will always depend on the specific circumstance.

 

[capefeather]

Well, all I was getting at was that some of the arguments here seemed rather faulty/confused. Lemmiwinks posted most of what I meant in the Froslass thread, actually.

 

[Flamewheeler]

That is the point. He doesn't want to get into this whole "what if" debate because Froslass is broken out of hail. Even if it isn't the answer you want, it is basically the only way to answer the question.

And if someday there is a similar situation, then fine! We have to judge it as a case-by-case scenario, we can't just always assume the Pokemon starting hail is causing the problem when it doesn't do anything except allow another Pokemon to take advantage of hail to be broken. We can't assume that it isn't either. It will always depend on the specific circumstance.

Thank you!

You make this seem as if that is a bad thing...

I don't think being creative and changing the metagame is necessarily a 'bad' thing. I just find it annoying when a metagame is shaped around nothing but gimmicks. People stall and get no where with lame gimmicks, rather than making something, 'good' , fresh, and effective, in order to expand on the metagame. I actually enjoy the surprise factor, but only when that surprise is effective in every battle, and not just a one-hit wonder.

 

[Xia]

I've been using SubCM Raikou as my check to hail teams, and it has yet to let me down. I switch in as Snover Protects (the most common thing they do against my Ambipom lead), then Substitute and Calm Mind until Raikou's all but impervious to special attacks. Snover's Blizzard can't break the Sub, and neither can Froslass after (iirc) two Calm Minds. Chansey gets 2HKOed by +6 Thunderbolt TI have no problems getting to +6 against hail teams for some reason), paving the way for a clean sweep.

 

[Platyp]

How viable do you think Scarfed Piloswine could be on a Hail team? It has shit defenses, but it does have 100 base Attack, allowing its Earthquake to OHKO Raikou. I haven't really figured out much else use for it besides a revenge killer, but I think it would do okay.

EDIT: Nvm, Raikou outspeeds Pilo even if it has a Scarf. ._.;;

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

How viable do you think Scarfed Piloswine could be on a Hail team? It has shit defenses, but it does have 100 base Attack, allowing its Earthquake to OHKO Raikou. I haven't really figured out much else use for it besides a revenge killer, but I think it would do okay.

EDIT: Nvm, Raikou outspeeds Pilo even if it has a Scarf. ._.;;

Piloswine doesn't need to outspeed Raikou in order to check it, and Scarf would be a huge waste anyway. It doesn't have shit defenses, just a typing that isn't meant to work well in general defensively. If you want to use Piloswine on a Hail team in a way that also allows it to check Raikou, I would go with a bulky SubCurse set with Ice Shard and Earthquake, using Careful nature, max special defense and lots of HP, though you might want to invest quite a bit in Attack so that it packs more of a punch off the bat. If you don't like the idea of setting up, Curse can be replaced with Toxic, or even Stone Edge if you want to catch a Moltres that switches in off guard.

Oh, and Snow Cloak obviously as the ability, not Oblivious.

An alternative spread would be max HP with Adamant nature and the rest split between Attack and Special Defense (maybe a few Speed EVs too for other base 50s?), if you feel the need for 101 HP Subs and don't need such heavy special defensive investment.

 

[Banedon]

I'm of opinion hail stall is overpowered. Sure there are counters to it, but even so breaking its multiple walls is hard. Hail stall typically has multiple copies of Protect, during which your poor wall-breaker will be taking Hail damage, and then there's the infinite Substitute / Protect Walrein chain, and woe be to you if you get hit with Toxic or get poisoned from Toxic Spikes / Poison Point! Hail stall has its weaknesses, and the weakness to Stealth Rock really helps. But I think the counters are a bit too hard to use, and having to force a Pokemon like Clefable into your team just to take out Hail stall, well that's going too far.

Personally I'd prefer moving Snover to BL; the permanent Hail is what makes Hail stall works after all. Unfortunately removing Snover will kill Hail stall. Otherwise I dearly want to say Froslass is broken, but then again in my experience she's not that bad. Fast yes, Spikes yes, blocks Rapid Spin yes and has Destiny Bond. All this makes her a good support Pokemon. But I can't rightfully say I've had much trouble with her. Snover yes, but not Froslass.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

If you guys truly do think that hail is broken, I'd recommend nominating Snover.

 

[Smurf.]

Hail stall is indeed extremely difficult to overcome, having been on both sides of a 6-0 destruction. CMkou is not a definitive counter as articuno can roar it away and still survive. In addition many hail stall teams also carry chansey, which wall raikou to hell and back

 

[toshimelonhead]

Does Marvel Scale on Milotic prevent toxic damage from going under 12 percent/turn? I just beat a hail team singlehandedly with him and I'm not sure if this is a glitch or not.

 

[supermarth64]

It doesn't. You were probably affected by 1 layer of Toxic Spikes or Poison from another move.