A New Ice Age?- UU Hail Discussion

[whistle]

It's because Froslass "breaks" hail. Hail isn't broken without Froslass. You even say it your self, "Froslass is broken in hail". This means that Froslass is indeed broken. When we were talking about Yanmega in UU, we always referred to Yanmega as being broken for the support characteristic, not the Pokemon sweeping because of the Pokemon being taken out so easily.

exactly...
SnoverX
Snover provides the requisite support for Froslass to be broken, just as Yanmega provides the support for X to sweep.
not the best analogy but I was just using the example you provided.

@ IPL maybe SDef Snover has Wood Hammer -- 160 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 111 - 132 (32.84% - 39.05%)
that + Leech Seed + hail damage means Raikou isn't setting up very easily

 

[Heysup]

@ Whistle:

Froslass is to Hail, as Yanmega was to "sweepers / X / whatever you want to call it". It's the cause that should be banned. Again, you don't change the dependent variable (Snover / sweepers), you change the independent variable (Froslass / Yanmega).

@ Snover vs Raikou.

That does a pathetic amount of damage, how do you expect it to come in on residual damage, without taking previous damage (as a lead), and beat something it can't even 2HKO that can easily 2HKO it?

Also, if we are talking "specialized" sets, why can't Raikou just use HP Fire or something? I don't see where you're trying to go with this Lemmi (as usual when it comes to specializing for a certain Pokemon that make you horribly weak to something else, especially when they aren't good counters / are easily removable).

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

@ Heysup: all I was saying was that good hail teams, Chansey or not, will naturally have at least a few Pokemon that can check Raikou to some extent, and all of them have to be weakened before Raikou can sweep easily. Why wouldn't you pump Special Defense on Snover? What exactly can Snover take on the physical side? And why wouldn't you pump Special Defense on Hariyama? How is it going to wall various Fire types (particularly Houndoom) and an assortment of Ice-type assaults without it?(Personally I pump everything into the defenses and HP on Hail stall 'Yama, but Special Defense is usually the one I max). And where is this imaginary post where I was arguing with you about Nidoqueen? I never did any such thing!

All I did was make a one-sentence statement regarding Raikou and Hail teams, with no confrontation intended whatsoever, yet you saw fit to have a right go at me and give me an extended lecture about it, bringing up all this "hard counters" stuff and other crap that I never mentioned in the first place. What was the point?

 

[BurtonEarny]

Yes I am OMGolly, but you never have used a Beat Up Dugtrio on me... Your going to have to come up with a log on that one because beat up is something you would remeber and I don't.

Froslass is broken BECAUSE of hail... Thats it. Hail makes her broken. She cannot break support being given to her (i.e. the hail) it makes no sense to say that because pokemon x is supported by a weather condition it is broken and therefore should be ban. If my posts in anyway implied I thought otherwise then I aplogize for misleading you. It doesn't work the way your proposing heysup no matter how much you want it to. If nothing else snover needs to be taken out long enough for a froslass retest unless a sizable portion of the community feels she is broken outside of hail.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Ok, this argument is just getting annoying. BE, hail has only become popular recently. IIRC, IPL used it first, but no one follwed, except maybe you and Xiang. Now that hail has risen in popularity hail makes forslass broken? Imo, that is just nonsense. Before people realized that hail was "so good" froslass was EVERYWHERE anyway. She's a suspect just like the others and everyone was excited about using her.

Imo, snover is in NO way BL. Yea, blah blah it supports the whole team, but what else. Maybe block a few things, but not much. Imo, Froslass is the BL pokemon in this case. She was broken before hail was hyped. Froslass gets spikes down with hail AND without. She's just as good out of hail. The only difference is that she becomes more annoying due to hax, just as Garchomp. Just a thought, Chomp was banned from OU, but not TTar or Hippo. So, imo, ban the troublemaker, not the supporter of it.

 

[Bluewind]

Imo, snover is in NO way BL. Yea, blah blah it supports the whole team, but what else. Maybe block a few things, but not much. Imo, Froslass is the BL pokemon in this case. She was broken before hail was hyped. Froslass gets spikes down with hail AND without. She's just as good out of hail. The only difference is that she becomes more annoying due to hax, just as Garchomp. Just a thought, Chomp was banned from OU, but not TTar or Hippo. So, imo, ban the troublemaker, not the supporter of it.

Agreed.

 

[whistle]

I get the feeling I am going to regret having posted in this thread.

Note that for the sake of argument, I'm assuming Froslass is "broken" in hail but isn't "broken" out of hail. Clearly if it's broken with or without hail support, it should be banned and there's no debate to be had.

@ Heysup:
To (again) use your analogies -- the experiment's purpose is to determine whether or not Froslass is broken in hail. The control is whether or not Froslass is broken out of hail (which is "no" for the sake of debate). The independent variable is adding hail. The dependent variable is how broken Froslass becomes. If it becomes broken in hail but isn't broken out of hail, it is the hail that is the problem, not Froslass (and hence it's Snover that should be BL).

@ Snover vs Raikou debate:
This argument is really a tiny part of the Raikou vs Hail argument (which is wholly irrelevant IMO) but I really hate when people make claims without backing them up with evidence. I don't even think Snover should be a Hail team's Raikou counter but whatever.

68 HP / 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snover. (Note that Raikou probably isn't running this spread, but I'm using it because it represents the worst case scenario for Snover.)

+0 Thunderbolt: 329 Atk vs 240 Def & 324 HP (95 Base Power): 70 - 83 (21.60% - 25.62%)
+1 Thunderbolt: 493 Atk vs 240 Def & 324 HP (95 Base Power): 105 - 123 (32.41% - 37.96%)
Wood Hammer: 160 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 111 - 132 (32.84% - 39.05%) Recoil: 37-44 (11.4% - 13.6%)
Leech Seed: -42 HP (-12.5%) from Raikou, +42 HP (+13.0%) to Snover.
End of Turn: +0% to Raikou, +6.25% to Snover.

Wood Hammer = easy 3HKO because Hail nullifies Raikou's Leftovers. If Raikou Subs on a Wood Hammer, it loses HP for absolutely nothing. If it doesn't Substitute, it risks getting Leech Seeded and losing the matchup. Factor in Protect to get free Leftovers recovery, and the chance of Raikou winning is very very low. To do that, the Raikou user has to (a) predict Wood Hammer vs Leech Seed (b) Calm Mind on the switch (c) predict all Protects, since +1 Thunderbolt doesn't 2HKO.

At the very least, it's not as dumbed down as you make it out to be.

@ Flamewheeler:
If Froslass is broken without hail, it's BL, period.
If Froslass is broken with hail but isn't broken without hail, then the debate about who to ban becomes relevant.

And uh it's not "now that hail has risen in popularity which makes Froslass broken". -.- It's pretty obvious that if no one uses Froslass in hail, we won't discover that Froslass in hail is broken (if it actually is broken). If two people use Froslass in hail, the chance that we'll make the discovery is slightly higher but still pretty low.

 

[Stagnant]

Well, after this round of voting is over and assuming Froslass stays (it should...) there is only one logical thing to do...

Remove Froslass, add Abomasnow. Test. Re-introduce Froslass.

Looks good on paper.

Other than that, I think people are overreacting to this hail team b/s.

 

[Flamewheeler]

@ Flamewheeler:
If Froslass is broken without hail, it's BL, period.
If Froslass is broken with hail but isn't broken without hail, then the debate about who to ban becomes relevent.

I don't remember exactly what I wrote, but that's what I was getting at. Froslass is BL or broken, whatever you want to call it period.

 

[Heysup]

@ Heysup: all I was saying was that good hail teams, Chansey or not, will naturally have at least a few Pokemon that can check Raikou to some extent, and all of them have to be weakened before Raikou can sweep easily. Why wouldn't you pump Special Defense on Snover? What exactly can Snover take on the physical side? And why wouldn't you pump Special Defense on Hariyama? How is it going to wall various Fire types (particularly Houndoom) and an assortment of Ice-type assaults without it?(Personally I pump everything into the defenses and HP on Hail stall 'Yama, but Special Defense is usually the one I max). And where is this imaginary post where I was arguing with you about Nidoqueen? I never did any such thing!

All I did was make a one-sentence statement regarding Raikou and Hail teams, with no confrontation intended whatsoever, yet you saw fit to have a right go at me and give me an extended lecture about it, bringing up all this "hard counters" stuff and other crap that I never mentioned in the first place. What was the point?

This is why you don't pump SpD on Hariyama:

CB Aggron Head Smash vs Hariyama:
525 Atk vs 156 Def & 449 HP (150 Base Power): 271 - 319 (60.36% - 71.05%)

Aggron can actually OHKO with Spikes, SR, and hail. That's pretty fucking pathetic for a Rock resist imo.

Life Orb Rhyperior Stone Edge vs Hariyama:
416 Atk vs 156 Def & 449 HP (100 Base Power): 186 - 219 (41.43% - 48.78%)

Ouch! A 2HKO from another one of hail teams biggest problems.

Yes, Hail can do a bit to check Raikou, but at what cost? This puts you at a major risk of losing to..well...every other Pokemon.

Sorry for going a bit overboard on this, but I've been dealing with "no you can't sweep every match because this Pokemon at max HP with this moveset and EV spread will beat you sometimes if you predict wrong and he predicts right and if you misclick and......" yea quite often. (I'm not saying that you're doing this at the moment, I just meant that's why I was a little frusterated).

Yes I am OMGolly, but you never have used a Beat Up Dugtrio on me... Your going to have to come up with a log on that one because beat up is something you would remeber and I don't.

I'll look for it tomorrow, but anyway it's irrelevant if it was you I played or someone else with your team (for this debate anyway, since we aren't debating skill or "who would win, me vs you", we are debating "does Chansey stop Raikou reliably enough for Hail to dismiss it as a threat"). I just know from experience and hard evidence that it works.

@ Heysup:
To (again) use your analogies -- the experiment's purpose is to determine whether or not Froslass is broken in hail. The control is whether or not Froslass is broken out of hail (which is "no" for the sake of debate). The independent variable is adding hail. The dependent variable is how broken Froslass becomes. If it becomes broken in hail but isn't broken out of hail, it is the hail that is the problem, not Froslass (and hence it's Snover that should be BL).

That's looking at it completely incorrect imo. For starters, I was saying that if hail was "hypothetically broken" when Froslass was on the team. This means that Froslass is the thing that controls if hail is broken.

You are looking at it as if Hail is something you can just add or remove, but you can't. You can't compare a hail team to another random team, because they are structured completely differently. Hail is the thing that's "hypothetically broken" when Froslass enters, and it isn't broken when Froslass is gone. That shows that Froslass is indeed the problem.

I guess you can look at it from both ways, technically. However, also technically, you cannot remove Snover and have an accurate test of a hail team without permahail! That isn't a 'fair' test. Especially since removing Snover also means that Froslass can still be broken in hail, just not perma hail.

@ Snover vs Raikou debate:
This argument is really a tiny part of the Raikou vs Hail argument (which is wholly irrelevant IMO) but I really hate when people make claims without backing them up with evidence. I don't even think Snover should be a Hail team's Raikou counter but whatever.

68 HP / 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snover. (Note that Raikou probably isn't running this spread, but I'm using it because it represents the worst case scenario for Snover.)

+0 Thunderbolt: 329 Atk vs 240 Def & 324 HP (95 Base Power): 70 - 83 (21.60% - 25.62%)
+1 Thunderbolt: 493 Atk vs 240 Def & 324 HP (95 Base Power): 105 - 123 (32.41% - 37.96%)
Wood Hammer: 160 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 111 - 132 (32.84% - 39.05%) Recoil: 37-44 (11.4% - 13.6%)
Leech Seed: -42 HP (-12.5%) from Raikou, +42 HP (+13.0%) to Snover.
End of Turn: +0% to Raikou, +6.25% to Snover.

Wood Hammer = easy 3HKO because Hail nullifies Raikou's Leftovers. If Raikou Subs on a Wood Hammer, it loses HP for absolutely nothing. If it doesn't Substitute, it risks getting Leech Seeded and losing the matchup. Factor in Protect to get free Leftovers recovery, and the chance of Raikou winning is very very low. To do that, the Raikou user has to (a) predict Wood Hammer vs Leech Seed (b) Calm Mind on the switch (c) predict all Protects, since +1 Thunderbolt doesn't 2HKO.

At the very least, it's not as dumbed down as you make it out to be.

Sorry if I act frustrated, but this is what I was talking about when I was explaining why I was frustrated above.

First, you are not including Stealth Rocks and / or Spikes. This makes +1 Thunderbolt an easy 2HKO.

Second, you are assuming Snover has maximum health, AS A LEAD. (You're going to say "well you said that about Froslass before in the other thread", but Froslass still beat Donphan without maximum HP).

Third, you are making it out to seem as if Raikou is the one who has to predict when it flat out wins in a 1v1 attacking scenario after Substitute or Calm Mind on the switch. Snover will lose if it predicts wrong once, Raikou can still win if it predicts wrong once (for example, if Snover happens to come in with maximum HP and Raikou (at +1 on the switch) uses Substitute once while Snover uses Wood Hammer, it still wins.)

Snover is a terrible terrible Raikou counter if you can even call it one.

When not considering all the facts, a lot of Pokemon look like good counters.

 

[capefeather]

I think the question of Hail vs Froslass is quite different from Sandstorm vs Garchomp and Yanmega vs whatever. When looking at Garchomp, I think many people arguing for Garchomp being Uber would say that Sand Veil is merely the "icing on the cake" for an already broken Pokémon. Here, if we assume that Froslass isn't broken outside of Hail, Snow Cloak then isn't merely "icing on the cake". When looking at Yanmega, well, if we don't ban Yanmega then who are we supposed to ban exactly? I'm pretty sure that more than a couple of Pokémon would have to go in order for Yanmega's hole-punching abilities are not of such a huge consequence. This is again different from Hail vs Froslass because we know of one exact Pokémon to remove to nerf Hail's benefit to Froslass, which is Snover/Abomasnow.

So now if we ban Snover, we have UU with a quite nerfed, probably even unplayable, Hail team concept, as well as a (by assumption) not-broken Froslass. If we ban Froslass, we have UU with a still-working (albeit indirectly nerfed) Hail team concept and no Froslass. Both metagames are less broken than this one is. It seems to me that if this scenario actually occurs (i.e. Froslass is considered not broken outside of Hail), then this ultimately comes down to an arbitrary judgment. Even the argument of "ban the troublemaker" is rather arbitrary because I could just as easily say, "Ban the supplier of trouble; now the troublemaker can't cause trouble."

That said, it's often good to have a kind of principle to determine what happens in these scenarios, even if they are arbitrary at their core. I mean, say a Pokémon was broken only because of Stealth Rock. I think I'd then want to ban the Pokémon, not the Stealth Rock. However, I am not sure of how this would apply to the current question.

 

[Adonzo]

If you vote Snover BL because Froslass breaks hail, then you eliminate the ability for Hail teams to exist in UU and thus eliminate Walrein, Glalie, etc from being any kind of useful. So you have the choice between banning one situationally UU pokemon, or gimping at least 4 I can think of.

it's disappointing that people seem to missed this post, as its probably the best point in the entire thread

ban froslass, you ban one pokemon who was already highly suspect and most definately is broken in hail

ban snover, you kill an entire playstyle that was fine before froslass was introduced, destroying the usage of several pokemon who rely on hail to be useful

seems like a simple solution to me at least

 

[Flamewheeler]

Even the argument of "ban the troublemaker" is rather arbitrary because I could just as easily say, "Ban the supplier of trouble; now the troublemaker can't cause trouble."

Well, that point wasn't made just for kicks. Sure, you can turn it around, but how serious would anyone take you? You would rather ban something that does nothing but set up hail and die. Instead, you would like to keep something that ALWAYS sets up spikes, prevents entry hazard set up, creates a lame lead metagame, blocks spin while setting up, and the list goes on. Seriously, hail may not be that 'icing on the cake' like in Chomp's case, but it's also not what makes froslass broken, it just makes it more annoying and it's job that much easier.

it's disappointing that people seem to missed this post, as its probably the best point in the entire thread

ban froslass, you ban one pokemon who was already highly suspect and most definately is broken in hail

ban snover, you kill an entire playstyle that was fine before froslass was introduced, destroying the usage of several pokemon who rely on hail to be useful

seems like a simple solution to me at least

This may not be directed towards me, but I DID miss this post. xD I too see the reasoning in that. In terms of needing to go Froslass>Snover imo. If we remove snover, we do remove an entire playstyle, albeit rare, but a playstyle nonetheless. Truth be told, it could be played like Rain Dance and Sunny Day teams, but who would use it then? Get rid of 1 dependent variable instead of the indepent variable along with many other dependents.

 

[whistle]

That's looking at it completely incorrect imo. For starters, I was saying that if hail was "hypothetically broken" when Froslass was on the team. This means that Froslass is the thing that controls if hail is broken.

You are looking at it as if Hail is something you can just add or remove, but you can't. You can't compare a hail team to another random team, because they are structured completely differently. Hail is the thing that's "hypothetically broken" when Froslass enters, and it isn't broken when Froslass is gone. That shows that Froslass is indeed the problem.

I guess you can look at it from both ways, technically. However, also technically, you cannot remove Snover and have an accurate test of a hail team without permahail! That isn't a 'fair' test. Especially since removing Snover also means that Froslass can still be broken in hail, just not perma hail.

a type of team cannot be broken because not every "hail team" or "rain dance team" is the same (among other reasons); if you think "hail teams" are broken, then it is walrein, froslass or snover that is the problem.
you assert the independent variable is adding froslass, but that would test the brokenness of a team type (i.e. hail). since a type of team can't be broken, this is a faulty experiment.
the independent variable in the correct experiment is to add froslass to determine whether individual pokemon i.e. froslass or walrein are broken.
comparing the impact of the independent variable on the dependent variable with the controlled variables (i.e. whether froslass and walrein are broken absent hail) determines which, if any, pokemon we should ban.

Sorry if I act frustrated, but this is what I was talking about when I was explaining why I was frustrated above.

First, you are not including Stealth Rocks and / or Spikes. This makes +1 Thunderbolt an easy 2HKO.

Second, you are assuming Snover has maximum health, AS A LEAD. (You're going to say "well you said that about Froslass before in the other thread", but Froslass still beat Donphan without maximum HP).

Third, you are making it out to seem as if Raikou is the one who has to predict when it flat out wins in a 1v1 attacking scenario after Substitute or Calm Mind on the switch. Snover will lose if it predicts wrong once, Raikou can still win if it predicts wrong once (for example, if Snover happens to come in with maximum HP and Raikou (at +1 on the switch) uses Substitute once while Snover uses Wood Hammer, it still wins.)

Snover is a terrible terrible Raikou counter if you can even call it one.

When not considering all the facts, a lot of Pokemon look like good counters.

just because snover leads doesn't mean it has to take residual damage. literally the only thing it has to do is to *enter the match* -- no SR, no spikes, no setup at all.

snover is not a great counter but it's not going down without a fight and raikou isn't going to just rampage past it like a slowbro or something. that's all I was trying to argue. so I guess we can agree.

Well, that point wasn't made just for kicks. Sure, you can turn it around, but how serious would anyone take you? You would rather ban something that does nothing but set up hail and die. Instead, you would like to keep something that ALWAYS sets up spikes, prevents entry hazard set up, creates a lame lead metagame, blocks spin while setting up, and the list goes on. Seriously, hail may not be that 'icing on the cake' like in Chomp's case, but it's also not what makes froslass broken, it just makes it more annoying and it's job that much easier.

the problem with your posts about this is that you think froslass is BL without hail. we're assuming (for the sake of debate) that froslass isn't broken without hail but is broken with hail, and trying to figure out what should be banned. there shouldn't be a *single* person in this thread that disagrees with the argument "assuming froslass is broken in hail and out of hail, it should be banned". please pretty please -- i pointed this out in my last post and you're still making arguments that ignore the most fundamental assumption of this debate.

@ capefeather / adonzo / d2m but mostly capefeather

I think the arbitrariness can be resolved by determining the answer to the question "what are things that can be broken?". as of now I think the answer is unequivocally "pokemon can be broken but teams cannot be broken" (although this is mostly because I can't think of a way a team concept can be intrinsically broken so feel free to give me some counterexamples [but don't say ubers bp]). this means banning snover unbreaks froslass, whereas banning froslass doesn't do anything beneficial (assuming benefit can only be derived from lowering the amount of "broken" in a metagame). of course this is all assuming froslass isn't broken out of hail but you mentioned that assumption in your post so i'm just putting it here for clarification.

 

[MagicMaster87]

This may not be directed towards me, but I DID miss this post. xD I too see the reasoning in that. In terms of needing to go Froslass>Snover imo. If we remove snover, we do remove an entire playstyle, albeit rare, but a playstyle nonetheless. Truth be told, it could be played like Rain Dance and Sunny Day teams, but who would use it then? Get rid of 1 dependent variable instead of the indepent variable along with many other dependents.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, you just happened to be the last post stating this, but that is a terrible way for anyone to think. You don't ban one Pokemon over another to keep the viability of other Pokemon intact or reduce the viability of others. You ban Pokemon based on whether that Pokemon itself is broken, whether in sweeping other Pokemon, stalling other Pokemon, or in providing the necessary support to allow other Pokemon to do either one (when without said support they could not do so). If that causes some Pokemon to become useless as a result, too bad for those Pokemon.

the problem with your posts about this is that you think froslass is BL without hail. we're assuming (for the sake of debate) that froslass isn't broken without hail but is broken with hail, and trying to figure out what should be banned. there shouldn't be a *single* person in this thread that disagrees with the argument "assuming froslass is broken in hail and out of hail, it should be banned". please pretty please -- i pointed this out in my last post and you're still making arguments that ignore the most fundamental assumption of this debate.

If we're assuming Froslass is not broken outside of Hail, then clearly it should be Snover that is banned then for providing the support that makes her broken, regardless of whether she is the only one who becomes broken with the support. So instead of arguing whether Hail teams/Snover are broken or not, we should be arguing about whether Froslass is broken outside of Hail or not, which really belongs in her specific thread, not here. Right?

 

[Heysup]

All other points aside, banning Froslass is a better choice for these reasons:

1) We KNOW Froslass fixes the "hail is broken" problem. It has been done before.
2) Removing Snover removes depth and diversity from the metagame.
3) Froslass is almost at the point where the consensus is at worst "on the fence" without hail. It wouldn't be illogical to say "Hail pushes Froslass over the edge". Hail shouldn't discount the fact that Froslass is a stupidly good Pokemon out of hail. This is the main thing people are overlooking in general: Froslass is undeniably a "very good, almost BL Pokémon" (at the very least) outside of Hail. The fact that it benefits like this from Hail should enforce its BL status, and at the very least it should not discount it.
4) We all HATE Froslass. Obviously, this isn't a real reason, but no one "likes" Froslass and what it does to the metagame. Froslass is that girl everyone gives dirty looks to at school for whatever reason.

 

[whistle]

she's hot and she knows it

@ MM87. yes, theoretically. but as you can see there's still a debate about whether snover or froslass should be banned if it's broken with hail but not broken without hail.

 

[MagicMaster87]

she's hot and she knows it

@ MM87. yes, theoretically. but as you can see there's still a debate about whether snover or froslass should be banned if it's broken with hail but not broken without hail.

There shouldn't be. If there is, then that's because of the illogical reasoning I stated in my last post (see my reply to Flamewheeler).

And before anyone says "Well, how can you be so strict about this when you told Heysup in the other thread that it was ok to 'bend the rules' about the BL characteristics?", if you want to follow those characteristics exactly, then Snover cannot be BL at ALL (and in the same vein, neither can Abomasnow for the reasons it was banned) because it doesn't not support Pokemon in sweeping; it supports them in stalling, and the support characteristic only mentions sweeping. Froslass would be the only possible candidate, and that would only be based off her abilities outside of Hail teams since Hail teams do not attempt to perform a sweep.

 

[Mrobinson587]

By Smogon's tiering definitions we would ban snover under the

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Snover makes Walrein fufill the Defensive characteristic, and pushes Froslass into something somewhere in between Defensive and Support as it was on the fence for BL on Support even without hail and now it can very viably run defensive sets.


Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Having said that I believe Frosslass and Snover to both BL independent of each other by Smogon's definitions.

@MM87 This responds to your statement. Wheather it ended up being inferred in the final definitions is something one of the policy makers will have to let us know.

 

[Vrolok]

Walrein is tolerable in hail. Froslass, not so much. I agree with banning Froslass, not Snover. Hail is an interesting playtype in UU, we should keep it around. Snow Cloak is good icing on a broken cake; let's get this snow queen out of here!

 

[MagicMaster87]

@ Mrobinson587: Ah, I did not know they had editted the support characteristic to include both sweeping and stalling. Good to know, although I don't agree that Snover helps Walrein fulfill the Defensive characteristic. I've found that Walrein rarely gets to setup and stall anymore, oddly enough. It seems like Raikou and Gallade's additions to the tier have helped make it more tolerable, as well as the increase in popularity of stuff such as Arcanine (since the few Walrein I've lived long enough to face or came out before Froslass have all run Super Fang + Blizzard rather than Surf).

@ Vrolok: That's not the reason we ban stuff, though. We ban stuff because it is broken, not because we want to keep certain types of teams or Pokemon viable. We should only ban Froslass if it is actually the culprit, i.e., if it is BL outside of Hail. If it's not, Snover should be the one banned, irregardless of how much we want Hail teams to remain in UU/NU.

 

[d2m]

@ Vrolok: That's not the reason we ban stuff, though. We ban stuff because it is broken, not because we want to keep certain types of teams or Pokemon viable. We should only ban Froslass if it is actually the culprit, i.e., if it is BL outside of Hail. If it's not, Snover should be the one banned, irregardless of how much we want Hail teams to remain in UU/NU.

1) Irregardless is my #1 pet peeve of "it is not a word". Sorry for the Grammer Nazi, I just can't help myself.

2) That's not the case. We ban things to keep the meta balanced and healthy. That means we typically ban broken things, but this is another case. Snover has not come up in any suspect test since Froslass was banned, now that Froslass is back, he is being considered again. Thus he's only considered because of Froslass. Even if Froslass is not BL outside Hail, it is the reason why an entire playstyle is broken, and thus needs to be banned. Snover cannot run a BL set, Froslass can, not to mention that banning Snover means that Walrein, Glalie, and several others become completely and totally useless. Banning him is bad for the metagame as a whole, banning Froslass is a positive step.

tl;dr Ban 'lass, retest Obamasnow.

 

[Pink]

By Smogon's tiering definitions we would ban snover under the

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Snover makes Walrein fufill the Defensive characteristic, and pushes Froslass into something somewhere in between Defensive and Support as it was on the fence for BL on Support even without hail and now it can very viably run defensive sets.


Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Having said that I believe Frosslass and Snover to both BL independent of each other by Smogon's definitions.

@MM87 This responds to your statement. Wheather it ended up being inferred in the final definitions is something one of the policy makers will have to let us know.

I don't see how Walrein is broken by any means under hail, which is what you just proposed. I haven't seen any post in this thread about Walrein being broken with hail, as there are many ways to combat it. Taunt and Encore being the immediate solutions.

I don't have much experience with UU, and I am looking at this argument from a Philosophical stand point, and considering the arguments and evidence provided in this thread.

Your argument is that Snover is broken because it makes it substantially easier for Walrien to wall a significant portion of the metagame, and for Frosslass to basically just fulfill every portion of the characteristics. However, I'm going to argue that this assumption is very wrong, and ill-thought out.

First, as I mentioned, Walrein is in no way suspect because of his hail-stalling at this point in time. I haven't seen anyone else complain about his abilities to sit there as you take hail damage, so it's a non-question to me. However, with support from Frosslass I can see how he could be broken. A set like, Protect, Sub, Super Fang, Roar, is potentially very harming with support from Frosslass, because of the spikes that one could potentially have on the field. Also, if their spinner is dead, you now have a very potent threat in Walrein to stall and roar, if you play the cards right / get lucky. However, this is not evidence for the banning of Walrein, but the banning of Frosslass, as she is making it easier for Walrein to wall, and cause a lot of damage with Hail and spikes, and potentially Stealth Rocks, floating around, and not an argument for the banning of Snover. Snover sets up a situation where Walrein can stall, but does not set up a situation where he can do a lot of damage with little countering options as opposed to having no Spike support. Hail alone doesn't make Walrein potentially BL, and in my opinion, even with spikes, he is still easy to counter.

Now, as has been argued, it seems that in Hail, Frosslass is certainly broken, or at least that is the general consensus. If she was close to BL without hail, it is hard to imagine her not being even closer, if not actually, BL with hail. But, who is to blame? As you are arguing, it seems that BOTH Snover and Frosslass are suspect. However, this logic is supremely flawed. You are arguing that Snover is broken because of the support it gives Frosslass to be a general bitch and make life suck in UU, and you say Frosslass is broken because of the general bitch she is to UU under hail. So, you propose to take them both away. But, without one, the other is hardly as much of a suspect. Without perma-hail, Frosslass isn't as annoying. Without Frosslass, Snover's perma-hail isn't as supportive. So, if we do what you propose, we're banning two Pokemon that rely on each other to be potentially broken, and then we'rre banning a pokemon that isn't even broken anymore in Snover. Snover is only considered broken because of Frosslass. Get rid of Frosslass, the problem is severely lowered, and Snover will not be considered as BL.

So, it's rather easy to see, from a strictly Philosophical view point, that Frosslass is the obvious suspect in all of this, if a suspect has to arrise. Perhaps Snover fits the support characteristics, but it is only for one pokemon When that one Pokemon is gone, Snover doesn't even come close to the characteristics of a supportive BL. It's really a no brainer. Ask yourselves, "which of these Pokemon is doing more damage? Snover or Frosslass?" And, to determine this, look at what will happen to the other if the one you chose is gone. If you remove Snover, Frosslass is still really close to being BL. If you remove Frosslass, Snover isn't even remotely BL anymore.

 

[Pink]

And Sandstorm makes Rock types more effective at walling, and just have to switch in to set it up. What's your point?

 

[d2m]

for those who strongly disagree with snover being under this category is completely missing the point. snover can constantly set up hail without even doing anything, it can make a simple switch in to render sandstorm, rain, or sunny day making it an incredible support pokemon.

people need to read carefully:


that means it makes froslass even more broken because of automatic hail provided by snover. froslass does not deserve a ban because its broken under hail, its broken becase it makes snover makes it easier for it to sweep. there are several other pokemon who benefit from this hail: walrein, articuno, glalie. it makes their jobs much easier as a staller, spiker, etc. walrein imo is broken in conjunction with snover. snover needs to bl boot and fits right under the support characteristics.

Well if that's the case why isn't Hippopotas banned? Ever faced a Curse Regirock in the sand before?

Seriously, just "it has autoweather" is not an argument. The fact the auto-weather has been deemed "not broken" over and over and over again without Froslass means the only thing pushing him over the edge is Froslass. Remove that and he's fine.