A New Ice Age?- UU Hail Discussion

[Erazor]

This is slightly late, but....

Also, the only thing that Hail does is improve his teammates' ability to STALL not Sweep. The only sweep arguments you have are Glaceon and Froslass and both can be easily tanked by Milotic or any other bulky Ice-resist (Modest specs Froslass is doing (24.37% - 28.93%) with Blizzard). Stallrein and Snow Cloak Froslass are the only 2 very noticeable benefits and neither of those is going to "sweep with little effort" although their survivability spikes way up.

The support characteristic includes stalling.

Well, I don't know about Snover. His BL nom stems from the fact that he provides the hail that supports the entire team. Froslass is definitely broken in the Hail.
Walrein was almost nominated under the defensive characteristic in the first test. But it was concluded that the actual culprit was Abomasnow who provided the necessary support for Walrein to be a complete dick. I think that it's the same in this case. Snover is making Froslass "obviously" BL, regardless of whether it is broken outside hail or not. Snover is making Walrein a dick to face(it also got Super Fang in HGSS)... so, assuming that Froslass isn't broken outside of hail, it certainly seems that Snover is the culprit here.

@Heysup - I'm not attacking your arguments, but there is one flaw to them - you are assuming that Froslass is BL outside hail, which may not be true.

The only reason Hail was neglected all this time is that most people think that "Snover is shit". It isn't. I faced Hail Stall during the last meta(the most stable one IMO, apart from Yanmega being there) and it was a bitch to face.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Assuming you mean with and without Hail, that is merely an opinion. Do not try to pass it off as fact. Technically, even with Hail that is an opinion, but it's an unanimous one so it might as well be fact.

Why are you twisting my words? It should be very obvious what I meant by "broken Pokemon", but just in case it isn't, I mean a Pokemon that fits the supplied characteristics. Pokemon that fit the Support characteristic are indeed broken for providing the support that makes it so hard to stop the supported Pokemon.

I agree, it is 'merely' an opinion, but it is damn close to being fact. Can you say that Froslass isn't broken?

Honestly, twisting your words was not my intentions, I apologize. Anyway, the way you put it made it sound like 'ban snover, not Froslass'. Honestly, I could care less about your opinion on the vote, but that's not the point. What it sounded like to me was 'snover is the problem', so I disagreed, what more can I say?

You said to ban the pokemon if it's broken, correct? Well, snover is in no way broken, and I know that IS a fact. Would you agree? Yes, it provides the hail support, but is that really enough to consider it BL? Another question: Does Froslass get spikes down without hail? Does she do it any better in hail? I'll grant her that she is much more annoying in hail, and has a slightly better chance of getting down 3 layers of spikes, but how much hax does she need to get this done. She can get at least 2 layers down without the hail. It's late and I really can't think of anything to say atm, so I'll leave it here. Also, I'm sorry if I sound like an ass or I'm trying to grill you--I'm not!

 

[Heysup]

Zam outspeeds and Encores his Substitute/Leech Seed then proceeds to easily 2HKO Abomasnow or OHKO with Focus Blast/HP Fire. Not to mention Clefable walling him to hell. Uxie, Mespirit, and Moltres are well known to U-Turn as well, which, as you put it, own Abomasnow. Most eams have at least one of the 5 I've already mentioned, it shouldn't be as much a problem as you or EUM made it out to be.

Zam also gets OHKOed by Wood Hammer. Clefable, Uxie, Mesprit, and Moltres were in the metagame before, so I don't even need to make the argument that "they aren't good enough" to stop Abomasnow from being BL.

And no, most teams don't carry those Pokemon. How would you even remotely come to that conclusion? This means that you would see these Pokemon at approximately 20% in usage.

@Heysup - I'm not attacking your arguments, but there is one flaw to them - you are assuming that Froslass is BL outside hail, which may not be true.

The only reason Hail was neglected all this time is that most people think that "Snover is shit". It isn't. I faced Hail Stall during the last meta(the most stable one IMO, apart from Yanmega being there) and it was a bitch to face.

I'm not assuming it's BL (which it is) outside of hail, I'm just the only one that isn't ignoring the fact that Froslass is still a Pokemon who's being considered "possibly BL" outside of hail, and is looking for that extra thing to push it over the line. That is where Snow Cloak comes in. Froslass' ability makes it function "brokenly" in hail (when hail is in play obviously).

What I'm trying to say is Snover is merely pushing Froslass over the edge of BL (for most people). Snow Cloak is the "extra thing" Froslass needed to fulfill the support characteristic, imo.

Your assumption about Walrein is also incorrect. The reason it was rejected for most people was the fact that it relied on Abomasnow staying in the metagame. On the bottom of my nomination of Walrein it said something to the effect of "sounds too much like a "only broken if" argument, which doesn't cut it".

And Snover is shit, it would again be silly to think that Snover is "good" outside of perma-hail.

 

[Erazor]

Your assumption about Walrein is also incorrect. The reason it was rejected for most people was the fact that it relied on Abomasnow staying in the metagame.

Relying on Abomasnow to stay in the meta is the same thing as it needing Hail to be broken. In the hail, Walrein is quite BL worthy, as most people thought.

Snover isn't great or anything, but he's not shit. He does a decent job at stalling with Protect/Leech Seed, and can act as an emergency check to Raikou. Not to mention that he is your only defence against other Auto-weather teams.

I personally agree with you that Froslass is broken even outside Hail, and Hail makes it clear that it's broken. However, opinion is not fact, and we need to resolve this problem of who's fault it is before nominations. I'd appreciate it if Jabba or reachzero could post here and clarify.

 

[MagicMaster87]

I agree, it is 'merely' an opinion, but it is damn close to being fact. Can you say that Froslass isn't broken?

Actually, I can. Outside of Hail, I've had little problems dispatching Froslass before she can set up any more than a single layer of Spikes, which in my opinion is not broken in the least. I would actually rather see a Froslass than an Omastar because that thing is so bulky on the physical side, it can switch in all day long and set up Spikes as many times as is needed. Not so with Froslass, even the bulky "Proslass" set.

Honestly, twisting your words was not my intentions, I apologize. Anyway, the way you put it made it sound like 'ban snover, not Froslass'. Honestly, I could care less about your opinion on the vote, but that's not the point. What it sounded like to me was 'snover is the problem', so I disagreed, what more can I say?

I apologize as well if that is how I am coming off. I am not trying to argue that Snover is the one who should be banned, as that really comes down to a matter of personal opinion of Froslass' BL status regardless of Hail. What I'm trying to say is that banning Froslass over Snover merely because Snover makes more Pokemon competitively viable is not the way we should be going about this.

You said to ban the pokemon if it's broken, correct? Well, snover is in no way broken, and I know that IS a fact. Would you agree? Yes, it provides the hail support, but is that really enough to consider it BL?

It was enough for Abomasnow. Its higher stats do make a difference as it can weaken Pokemon a bit more than Snover can and thus make stalling a little easier for the others, but not enough that we should immediately dismiss Snover, I believe, especially when it's really the Hail that matters. Remember, we're using the Support characteristic here, not the Offensive or Defensive ones. It's not about what Snover/Abomasnow do for themselves, it's about what they do for the others, and what they do is provide permanent Hail.

Another question: Does Froslass get spikes down without hail? Does she do it any better in hail? I'll grant her that she is much more annoying in hail, and has a slightly better chance of getting down 3 layers of spikes, but how much hax does she need to get this done. She can get at least 2 layers down without the hail. It's late and I really can't think of anything to say atm, so I'll leave it here. Also, I'm sorry if I sound like an ass or I'm trying to grill you--I'm not!

From my personal experience both using and fighting Froslass outside of Hail, versus fighting Froslass inside of Hail, yes, it is MUCH easier, although I admit this may be due to the fact that Hail Froslass tends to run a much different moveset than non-Hail Froslass. Hail Froslass usually carry Confuse Ray, which instantly lowers your chances of hitting her from a decent 80% to a mere 40% (compared to 100% on non-Hail Froslass since they tend not to run Confuse Ray) with a perfect accuracy move. Assuming confusion doesn't wear out, to hit twice in a row, you have 0.4 * 0.4 = 0.16, a mere 16% chance. To put it into actual battle situations, that is a 16% chance for Hitmontop to kill Froslass with 2 Bullet Punches (assuming it gets hit with Confuse Ray on the switchin or while Froslass is behind a Sub), or for Spiritomb to kill with Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak, or for Ambipom to kill with 2 Pursuits (again, assuming Froslass can Confuse Ray before getting hit), or any other number of similar situations. Compare that to non-Hail Froslass, who is 100% dead if she doesn't switch out. To hit Hail Froslass three turns in a row with a 100% accurate (for those Pokemon who can't hit Froslass supereffectively or with weaker attacks, for example), there's only a 6.4% chance. At this point, Froslass has either set up all three layers of Spikes or has a Sub and 2 layers, at which point she's effectively done her job.

So it's not even a matter of opinion here. It is statistically MUCH easier for Froslass to set up a full three layers of Spikes in Hail than it is for her to do it outside of Hail, assuming that they use the most common moveset for the type of team that they are in (i.e., Hail Froslass has Confuse Ray whereas non-Hail Froslass does not).

 

[capefeather]

Concerning Walrein vs Abomasnow, this seems to me to be different from Froslass vs Snover because the presence of Walrein doesn't seem to have been important to how broken Abomasnow was. Abomasnow may have made Walrein broken, but did Walrein make Abomasnow broken. I wasn't in UU back in March (started near the end of March), but I suspect not.

@ Flamewheeler: If you think that Froslass is broken, then why did you go further than that and say all this "ban the perpetrator" stuff? You can't talk simultaneously about Froslass being broken and about who to ban if Froslass and Snover are only broken together. If you've picked one and the other person has picked the other then you might as well be speaking different languages. Crobat and Yanmega weren't banned because they suppressed certain strategies; they were banned because they were broken.

@ Heysup: Well, the policy changes have had nothing to do directly with UU. Considering the timing of the vote, it was probably more due to Garchomp than to the BL dropdowns, if nothing else. So no, no one is trying to unbalance UU. This was just a natural result of Colin's polls, not of the "omg let's test this and that" mentality.

@ Pink:
You cite that "it's obvious", and I'm not even going to get into what's wrong with this.

You also cite that Froslass is a suspect. However, unless there was a change to the UU testing process that I'm not aware of, there are no true suspects in UU. The existence of these threads doesn't count. In fact, the test phase isn't even over for five more days.

Additionally, the idea of one Pokémon fitting the Support Characteristic "more" than another does is ultimately irrelevant. It fits to the point of being broken or it doesn't. There are also other Pokémon like Snover who do their amazing support job and then become "useless" afterward due to "unintimidating stats" or whatever, like Smeargle (one of the top OU leads, and generally needs several turns to fill its main role unlike Snover's 0 or 2 vs Sandstorm) and Wynaut/Wobbuffet (banned entirely from OU).

Finally, citing Garchomp gets into deciding whether Garchomp and Froslass are not broken outside of their ability-activating weather conditions, which is also irrelevant to the question posed assuming Froslass isn't broken outside of Hail.

 

[Heysup]

I know it had nothing to do with UU, but it just seems everyone is caught up in their own "Forum self righteousness" and pretending like the metagame wasn't almost balanced before these BL Pokemon were dropped back in. We should be trying to (fairly, and with proper justification obviously) ban them back out so that we can conduct a proper retest when it makes sense to do so. This metagame is in a shit storm at the moment, we need to get out of this shit storm if we want to make any progress. Froslass is definitely contributing to the fact that this metagame is so unstable, as is Gallade and Raikou. Why should we not just be getting them out of here (focusing on the "why they are/were broken" arugments as opposed to the "why they aren't broken" arguments) for the sake of a fair test as opposed to being counter-productive due to this policy change (not that the policy itself is pointless, dropping the BL Pokemon back in is what was counter-productive).

Anyway, this is the wrong thread for this discussion. If you don't mind I'll just quote myself and your response and post it in the other thread.

It was enough for Abomasnow.

First of all, thinking that "it was good enough for Abomasnow to be banned, so it must be for Snover too" is flat out irrational thinking. Especially when that wasn't the only reason Abomasnow was banned.

Hmm...good Pokemon who was voted BL for being able to Leech Seed stall a ridiculous amount of the metagame, check a numerous amount of Pokemon with it's unique typing and above average defenses, in addition to setting up hail versus a Pokemon who sets up hail then dies. Fair comparison right? Obviously not.

Again, I think I feel the need to link this:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1762886&postcount=44

I don't think anyone should be even remotely considering "Abomasnow had perma-hail and was banned, so Snover is also BL" as an argument.

I used to think Snover was BL too, but that was before I realized that Froslass was the secondary problem behind hail being broken in the first metagame. Now it's simple; Hail isn't broken, Froslass is.

 

[Xia]

Now it's simple; Hail isn't broken, Froslass is.

I agree wholeheartedly. Though Ambomasnow and Snover both have the ability to set up hail, I rarely see Snover surviving long enough to be a lasting member of the team--being 6-5 after two turns is nice, too. Frankly, if Froslass wasn't even in the tier no one would say that it was BL. If so, everyone would be raising a stink about Hippopotas, too.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Hail isn't broken, Froslass is.

Out of hail... I really dont think that she is. Hail support is the only reason I see to consider her anything other than a top UU.

However, I've come to the point where I just want one of them gone. Together they are a problem (I feel killing hail teams is a small price to pay for keeping a good spiker that is useful) so as long as one goes I wont be too mad.

I look at it like this:
Hail was okay before, not great. It really needed an extra pokemon to be good. Froslass was that extra pokemon. If Froslass is removed not only are we losing a good spiker out of hail, but hail takes a big hit from losing a pokemon that can benefit from it. In that scenario it is a lose/ lose. However, if we look at hail as the thing that enables Froslass to be broken, which it is, then removing snover kills hail only slightly more than if Froslass were to be removed and we keep the viable spiker for use outside of hail.
----------

How many people view froslass as broken outside of hail would be really helpful to know. Heysup can I ask a favor? Why dont you make a poll on the Froslass thread and ask if people think that Froslass is broken outside of hail.

 

[Flamewheeler]

@ Flamewheeler: If you think that Froslass is broken, then why did you go further than that and say all this "ban the perpetrator" stuff? You can't talk simultaneously about Froslass being broken and about who to ban if Froslass and Snover are only broken together. If you've picked one and the other person has picked the other then you might as well be speaking different languages. Crobat and Yanmega weren't banned because they suppressed certain strategies; they were banned because they were broken.

Huh? I said Froslass is broken. I never argued that both her and snover were only broken together. I said Froslass is broken, snover is not BL, and snover is far from being broken. I don't get where this is coming from. Also, I know why Crobat and Yanmega were banned...I was there. But, did Crobat not shut down grass types or at least make them harder to play with? Did she stop fighters from doping their job to the fullest or keep them at bay so they could never complete their task at all? Did Yanmega let offense walk all over anything? How carfeul did offensive teams have to be about keeping their check to it alive? They were broken AND they shut down A LOT. So, my understanding would be that they were banned for being broken and for what they could do to the tier.

 

[MagicMaster87]

First of all, thinking that "it was good enough for Abomasnow to be banned, so it must be for Snover too" is flat out irrational thinking. Especially when that wasn't the only reason Abomasnow was banned.

Hmm...good Pokemon who was voted BL for being able to Leech Seed stall a ridiculous amount of the metagame, check a numerous amount of Pokemon with it's unique typing and above average defenses, in addition to setting up hail versus a Pokemon who sets up hail then dies. Fair comparison right? Obviously not.

Again, I think I feel the need to link this:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1762886&postcount=44

I don't think anyone should be even remotely considering "Abomasnow had perma-hail and was banned, so Snover is also BL" as an argument.

I used to think Snover was BL too, but that was before I realized that Froslass was the secondary problem behind hail being broken in the first metagame. Now it's simple; Hail isn't broken, Froslass is.

If you'd continued reading my post you would have seen that I mentioned Abomasnow's other attributes. However, the main reason Abomasnow was nominated and voted for was its ability to set up permanent Hail for its teammates. Everything else it can do that Snover can't is merely "icing on the cake", much like Snow Cloak is for Froslass. You cannot seriously believe that if Abomasnow did not have the ability to set up perma-Hail that it would have been deemed broken and banned.

Also, I don't see anything remarkable about that post. It's basically saying Abomasnow can Sub, attack, and switch out; any Pokemon with Sub can do that why does it make Abomasnow broken? So later on in the game it can predict and attack instead of Subbing; again, what's so amazing about this? Then there's Leech Seed, but what makes Abomasnow any better than other Leech Seeders? That post might as well have been talking about Sceptile or Venusaur or even Jumpluff, since it specifically stayed away from mentioning Hail at all. The only difference is that Abomasnow can use STAB Ice attacks to hit other Grassers with, but Venusaur has STAB Sludge Bomb so even that isn't incredibly unique.

Additionally, while this doesn't really pertain to Abomasnow being voted back then, a majority of the Pokemon listed in that post rarely see any play nowadays (Bellossom? Dewgong? Politoed? Really, even back then?) , so if that's the reason it's still banned, we might as well drop it back and give it a retest if Snover doesn't end up kicking the bucket as well.

 

[Heysup]

It showed that there were basically too little Pokemon who could come in and not get fucked up by Leech Seed + Hail + strong STAB attacks, and do anything about it.

 

[MagicMaster87]

It showed that there were basically too little Pokemon who could come in and not get fucked up by Leech Seed + Hail + strong STAB attacks, and do anything about it.

It can't do both at the same time since the opponent will most likely be switching in something that can either kill it or deal massive damage. Especially noteworthy are Sceptile and Venusaur, who are immune to Leech Seed and will kill it with HP Fire and Sludge Bomb, respectively, if it tries to stay in and attack, which means Abomasnow would need to predict with Blizzard. It might have been able to fend off more of the metagame back then, but I doubt it would hold up nearly as well anymore, which is why I stated that it doesn't have that much over Snover anymore.

 

[Heysup]

You really aren't refuting the points. It is SHOWN in the post that Pokemon cannot switch in, so simply saying "things can switch in" isn't a good enough argument. As for your examples, it OHKOes Venusaur and Sceptile with STAB Blizzard meaning they can't switch into a Substitute, neither can much else.

@ BonE:

Think about it this way: Hail sucked without Froslass, and is good with Froslass. No matter how you look at it, Froslass is causing these reactions. It's simply irrefutable in my opinion.

 

[MagicMaster87]

You really aren't refuting the points. It is SHOWN in the post that Pokemon cannot switch in, so simply saying "things can switch in" isn't a good enough argument. As for your examples, it OHKOes Venusaur and Sceptile with STAB Blizzard meaning they can't switch into a Substitute, neither can much else.

It is shown that Pokemon that aren't used at all in today's meta cannot switch in, and it assumes that any switching will be done in the first place, which admittedly back then would be likely to happen. The recent tier changes have affected the meta so much that most of the common Pokemon in the tier have moves that hit Abomasnow supereffectively. For leads, Ambipom has Low Kick, Kabutops has Stone Edge, Uxie/Mesprit have U-turn, Arcanine/Moltres have various Fire-type attacks... Non-leads: aside from the previously mentioned Pokemon, Registeel has Iron Head, Venusaur/Toxicroak/Poison-type Pokemon typically carry Sludge Bomb or Poison Jab (physical Venusaur doesn't, admittedly), Blaziken destroys it with a majority of its moveset, Hitmontop/Fighting-types often have Close Combat, Superpower, or Stone Edge, Clefable doesn't care about it at all, Alakazam has Signal Beam, Focus Blast, or Encore, Steelix has either Gyro Ball or Stone Edge, Sceptile has Rock Slide or HP Fire... The list goes on, and that's not even including the current suspects or non-damaging moves like Taunt or status effects. Sure, it can hit a lot of these guys hard in return, but most of this list can easily outspeed it. Basically, it can only really switch in and set up on bulky Water-types like Milotic or Slowbro (Thunder Wave and Toxic hurts, though) or stuff like Raikou that rarely carries a move it doesn't resist (has to watch out for the rare Signal Beam Raikou, though).

 

[Heysup]

It is shown that Pokemon that aren't used at all in today's meta cannot switch in, and it assumes that any switching will be done in the first place, which admittedly back then would be likely to happen. The recent tier changes have affected the meta so much that most of the common Pokemon in the tier have moves that hit Abomasnow supereffectively. For leads, Ambipom has Low Kick, Kabutops has Stone Edge, Uxie/Mesprit have U-turn, Arcanine/Moltres have various Fire-type attacks... Non-leads: aside from the previously mentioned Pokemon, Registeel has Iron Head, Venusaur/Toxicroak/Poison-type Pokemon typically carry Sludge Bomb or Poison Jab (physical Venusaur doesn't, admittedly), Blaziken destroys it with a majority of its moveset, Hitmontop/Fighting-types often have Close Combat, Superpower, or Stone Edge, Clefable doesn't care about it at all, Alakazam has Signal Beam, Focus Blast, or Encore, Steelix has either Gyro Ball or Stone Edge, Sceptile has Rock Slide or HP Fire... The list goes on, and that's not even including the current suspects or non-damaging moves like Taunt or status effects. Sure, it can hit a lot of these guys hard in return, but most of this list can easily outspeed it. Basically, it can only really switch in and set up on bulky Water-types like Milotic or Slowbro (Thunder Wave and Toxic hurts, though) or stuff like Raikou that rarely carries a move it doesn't resist (has to watch out for the rare Signal Beam Raikou, though).

Sigh. None of them can switch in! You're completely missing the point; very few Pokemon can switch in. Besides Alakazam, those Pokemon were already in the tier. He explained how they DON'T switch in. And I've explained how Alakazam can't switch in (it gets OHKOed by Wood Hammer). You can't just say "all these Pokemon beat Abomasnow" when they are explained, specifically, in the post. They were here already, nothing has changed.

I'll admit, Pokemon like Arcanine can switch in and force Abomasnow out, but it has no reliable Recovery in Hail (Morning Sun heals 25%, so don't try to bring that up :P). This means that they can switch in and get hit semi-hard by a STAB move, Hail, and residual damage, then Abomasnow can switch out, rinse and repeat until that one Pokemon faints. Only Moltres and Clefable have reliable recovery moves out of the Pokemon you listed. So you're suggesting Abomasnow is not broken because it has two plausible switch-ins? (keep in mind that Moltres is weak to SR, and Clefable is weak period)

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I wouldn't call Clefable weak by any means.

Anyway, we all know what Abomasnow is capable of by now, at least those of us around during the first test. But what we don't know is whether it would be so broken without Froslass, its obvious partner in crime, for easy Spikes and a whole lot more besides. Let's face it, running Abomasnow is a commitment to Hail strategy, as if you don't you risk leaving your team at least as hindered if not more so than the opponent, in a big way. It is certainly not like in the Steel dominated metagame where you can sometimes throw in Tyranitar and not have it nerf much of your team. With that in mind, there is plenty of uncertainty as to what overall impact Abomasnow has without Froslass, who is looking increasingly likely now to get banned. I don't think many people believe that Abomasnow is broken purely on its own merits; they contribute greatly yes, but not completely. It was more a combination of self-use and support for (and from) others, with Froslass undoubtedly forming a huge chunk of the latter. It is clear now that having Abomasnow and Froslass banned at the same time has left us with just as many questions as answers, and the issue needs to be looked at again some time down the road IMO. Not saying that it has to be immediate or anything.

 

[Stagnant]

I'll admit, Pokemon like Arcanine can switch in and force Abomasnow out, but it has no reliable Recovery in Hail (Morning Sun heals 25%, so don't try to bring that up :P). This means that they can switch in and get hit semi-hard by a STAB move, Hail, and residual damage, then Abomasnow can switch out, rinse and repeat until that one Pokemon faints.

Going from this... I've occasionally been using Sunny Day - Flare Blitz - Mornin Sun - X-Speed Arcanine to battle the various weather teams and he has been doing great. Sun Boost Max attack Flare Blitz makes a majority of hail team members shit thier pants. Morning Sun Heals for max Hp in the sun for icing on the cake.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Sigh. None of them can switch in! You're completely missing the point; very few Pokemon can switch in. Besides Alakazam, those Pokemon were already in the tier. He explained how they DON'T switch in. And I've explained how Alakazam can't switch in (it gets OHKOed by Wood Hammer). You can't just say "all these Pokemon beat Abomasnow" when they are explained, specifically, in the post. They were here already, nothing has changed.

I'll admit, Pokemon like Arcanine can switch in and force Abomasnow out, but it has no reliable Recovery in Hail (Morning Sun heals 25%, so don't try to bring that up :P). This means that they can switch in and get hit semi-hard by a STAB move, Hail, and residual damage, then Abomasnow can switch out, rinse and repeat until that one Pokemon faints. Only Moltres and Clefable have reliable recovery moves out of the Pokemon you listed. So you're suggesting Abomasnow is not broken because it has two plausible switch-ins? (keep in mind that Moltres is weak to SR, and Clefable is weak period)

And now you're completely missing the point. I'm saying in my last post that in today's metagame they won't HAVE to switch in, because nearly all of the most commonly-used Pokemon have something to hit Abomasnow hard with. Only bulky Water-types like Blastoise and Slowbro and random (not "uncommon") stuff like Raikou typically carry only moves that it resists can't really hit it with their common moves (although Toxic and Thunder Wave from Slowbro will hurt Abomasnow a lot), and bulky Waters aren't quite as common as in the past, from my experience.

 

[Sock Monster]

I ran Heal Bell on the last slot of Glaceon and it was pretty useful in some situations as the switches Glaceon may cause as well as its speed with Choice Scarf would let you pull it off, possibly ridding Walrein of Toxic or something.

I don't see anything else useful to be put in the slot anyway...

 

[BurtonEarny]

I ran Heal Bell on the last slot of Glaceon and it was pretty useful in some situations as the switches Glaceon may cause as well as its speed with Choice Scarf would let you pull it off, possibly ridding Walrein of Toxic or something.

I don't see anything else useful to be put in the slot anyway...

baton pass can be used for scouting... but if SR is down then glaceon scouts at a high cost.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Zam outspeeds and Encores his Substitute/Leech Seed then proceeds to easily 2HKO Abomasnow or OHKO with Focus Blast/HP Fire.

Switching in Alakazam means you risk death by Wood Hammer. By that logic, you might as well use Chatot to counter Groudon, which is basically the same thing except Chatot can switch in more easily.

Not to mention Clefable walling him to hell.

Point taken; it's not like I disagreed with that in the nomination that I submitted over half a year ago that was called out for some reason.

Uxie, Mespirit, and Moltres are well known to U-Turn as well, which, as you put it, own Abomasnow. Most eams have at least one of the 5 I've already mentioned, it shouldn't be as much a problem as you or EUM made it out to be.

How does U-Turn own Abomasnow? U-Turns from Mesprit and Uxie are fairly predictable; it's not like they have much else to use on Abomasnow. Therefore, it essentially comes down to speed. If they're faster, Abomasnow can Leech Seed whoever they U-Turn to, which is essentially the same as sending in a faster Pokemon like Houndoom. If they're slower, Abomasnow can attack - no problems there. Uxie's U-Turn also doesn't break Abomas's substitute all the time. As for Moltres; why would you U-Turn, of all things?

On another note, I've seen Clefable been used on Hail teams with success - Knock Off and Trick work well to expose Leftovers users to Hail, Wish support, it's not weak to Stealth Rock, etc.

 

[d2m]

On another note, I've seen Clefable been used on Hail teams with success - Knock Off and Trick work well to expose Leftovers users to Hail, Wish support, it's not weak to Stealth Rock, etc.

Speaking of Clefable, some people...(you know who you are) have started running Clefable/Clefairy/Cleffa Endeavorsashes with hail. You can all go screw yourselves with a telephone poll.

Yeah, it's walled by a ghost, but it doesn't make it any less annoying.

Also, only a Max/Max Abomasnow is keeping a sub on Uxie's U-turn (with 0 atk investment), and no one ever runs that set. Moltres uses U-turn to scout on the choice set, but there's really not a situation in which he'll hit Abomasnow with it, I was just thinking of most common users of the move.

All the pokemon listed easily survive a Blizzard or Wood Hammer even with no defensive investment, so attacking isn't a problem. Not to mention other subseeders can set up in the same way as Abomasnow and all of them are faster...the 6.25% Hail damage is a plus, but the stalling ability is essentially the same.

Oh, and on Zam: Your point is that he sub/seeds to stall people, is he really going to scout his switch in by attacking and wasting the chance to sub/seed?

 

[Thund91]

I haven't read any other posts in this thread yet, but what isn't mentioned in the op but should be is the fact that hail severely limits the ammount of pokemon you can use effectively. Ground, Rock, and Steel types are immune to the effects of Sandstorm, while only Ice types are immune to the effects of Hail. I think the pokemon pool for a sandstorm team is much more diverse then that of hail. Hail teams are pretty predictable. Like 99% of them are stall. You can be very sure that they have a Walrein and most likely a Frosslass (not like anythings going to help you with that crazy evasion anyway). Another thing is that Hail is much weaker to the most common entry hazard, while a good ammount of pokemon on a SS team resist it. Just a little observation that i've made.

Not like i'm saying Hail is unuseable or weaker then SS, it's just that it takes a lot more skill to pull off. I'm actually interested in making an offensive Hail team considering they're non-existant. It could be fun. (:

 

[Leman]

I haven't read any other posts in this thread yet, but what isn't mentioned in the op but should be is the fact that hail severely limits the ammount of pokemon you can use effectively. Ground, Rock, and Steel types are immune to the effects of Sandstorm, while only Ice types are immune to the effects of Hail. I think the pokemon pool for a sandstorm team is much more diverse then that of hail. Hail teams are pretty predictable. Like 99% of them are stall. You can be very sure that they have a Walrein and most likely a Frosslass (not like anythings going to help you with that crazy evasion anyway). Another thing is that Hail is much weaker to the most common entry hazard, while a good ammount of pokemon on a SS team resist it. Just a little observation that i've made.

Not like i'm saying Hail is unuseable or weaker then SS, it's just that it takes a lot more skill to pull off. I'm actually interested in making an offensive Hail team considering they're non-existant. It could be fun. (:

Ive made a semi-offensive team that tries to go for a Scarf-Glaceon sweep. Its been working pretty well.