np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[M BLADE]

@ M BLADE

mantine outclasses pelipper due to much higher spdef and water absorb.
losing roost sounds "meh" on paper but pelipper really barely gets any opportunities to roost anyways, and it has no good 4th option -- replacing those with rest and sleep talk actually lets mantine stay alive for quite a while since it has massive special bulk.

Mantine is better, there's no doubt.
But, on a lead position(it tends to be mostly physical), i still like Pelipper more. Mantine, for example, wouldn't survive Fake Out+Retun Ambipom whlie Pelipper can.
Outside of the lead position, i wouldn't use Pelipper over Mantine.
And no one would use a LO set with both lol, only me.

PS: There's Air Slash over Ice Beam for Pelipper too, and a also little more sp.atk, and Roost like you said.

 

[Jay the kid]

If your talking about which one is a better lead off poke it would be Mantine because its faster than Pelipper and better move pool, but Pelipper as a wall I've used it before and it worked out well

 

[FlareBlitz]

So I dunno if Swellow has been annoying the ever loving shit out of anyone else, but it's been annoying me, and I found an interesting and relatively undiscussed remedy for your team's potential swellow problems: defensive Rotom with its new HG/SS toy, Pain Split. I haven't had the chance to test it extensively yet, but from the few matches I've played against opposing Swellow, it works fantastically. It's not even 3hko'd by Jolly Swellow's Brave Bird and lols at Facade, which is something not a lot else in the tier can say. It also makes a surprisingly effective Honchkrow check, taking pathetic damage from Brave Bird and being able to switch in Superpowers. Just watch out for the random Night Slash (not very popular anymore). Defensive Rotom's primary problem before was that it could really only check these things once; once Swellow sees it, it just needs to u-turn out to something that can force Rotom out and boom, it's ready to sweep next time. But with Pain Split, rotom can keep itself healthy enough to check multiple threats multiple times. Definitely something that needs more love imo.

 

[A.P.]

Holy crap, that thing works. Annoying in general, I go so far as to say.

It is ridiculously effective at stalling. Unfortunately, in the wee hours of the monring, I had the misfortune to go up against this Rotom build multiple times, and every time, it succeeded in pissing the shit out of me.

That thing definitely works. It just keeps switching in on most Normal or Flying-types, and simply just stalls. Discharge's paralysis makes it even harder to break whatever Subs it may put up, and it's difficult to get a hit in, between the amount of hax it can provide, and its speed.

And just when you think you've got it, hello Pain Split, and oops, here we go again.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I've been using Magneton for Swellow, but Magneton suffers in the same way that Rotom does. They're both NFEs, so a lot of people just ignore them when team-building.

Magneton resists Flying (Brave Bird), Normal (Facade), Dark (Pursuit) and Bug (U-turn), so he does well against Swellow, being able to OHKO it with its insanely powerful Thunderbolt (it's stronger than even Raikou's), and he's quite easy to switch in, although Facade still does a lot of damage.

Infact, Magneton is quite easy to switch in, in general, what, with a whopping 13 resistances. :D

 

[Stagnant]

After I saw Flare using Rotom I figured that I would try my hand with it. Unfortunately, my luck sucked and after 5 matches and many many Charge Beams I only receive a single boost... So I dropped it and moved on.

 

[M BLADE]

Isn't easier to just use Aggron to wall Swellow? Granted, Aggron laughs at every attack Swellow has.
And can launch his powerful Head Smash on whatever while Swellow needs to U-Turn the hell out.
It's different form Rotom by being a more offensive wall to Swellow than Rotom.
Well, if you want a Pain Split poke that also walls Swellow, there's Probopass... although Rotom is better.

 

[Bluewind]

Being trapped by Dugtrio sucks at times though. Also, Rotom can act as a spinblocker and status spreader. I know Aggron has his own advantages, and is really tough to compare two pokés of completely different natures, but defensive wise I see Rotom performing better.

 

[A.P.]

After I saw Flare using Rotom I figured that I would try my hand with it. Unfortunately, my luck sucked and after 5 matches and many many Charge Beams I only receive a single boost... So I dropped it and moved on.

The set should be Discharge/Shadow Ball/Substitute/Pain Split. With a good deal of defensive EVs.

 

[Bluewind]

The set should be Discharge/Shadow Ball/Substitute/Pain Split. With a good deal of defensive EVs.

Shouldn't WoW go somewhere, maybe over Shadow Ball? I know double status might backsifre sometimes, but it's too good to pass IMHO.

 

[Heysup]

Ghosts get trapped by Pursuiters. Aggron and Magneton are Dugtrio bait. It is a very common tactic to use these Pokemon in tandem with Swellow.

If you want the most reliable Swellow counter, simply use Rhyperior. Rhyperior absolutely annihilates Dugtrio, since it merely 3-4HKOes with a CB Earthquake.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Ghosts get trapped by Pursuiters. Aggron and Magneton are Dugtrio bait. It is a very common tactic to use these Pokemon in tandem with Swellow.

If you want the most reliable Swellow counter, simply use Rhyperior. Rhyperior absolutely annihilates Dugtrio, since it merely 3-4HKOes with a CB Earthquake.

Magneton | Move | Substitute | 76.6
Magneton | Move | Magnet Rise | 71.5

Dugtrio won't be able to defeat Magneton unless Dugtrio both has no Substitute and no Magnet Rise, so it's not exactly "Dugtrio bait", at least not all of the time. Also, the few Magneton that run HP Ice (only about 24%, granted) will OHKO Dugtrio IIRC, so even if it only has Sub and not Magnet Rise it can still win.

 

[Heysup]

Magneton | Move | Substitute | 76.6
Magneton | Move | Magnet Rise | 71.5

Dugtrio won't be able to defeat Magneton unless Dugtrio both has no Substitute and no Magnet Rise, so it's not exactly "Dugtrio bait", at least not all of the time. Also, the few Magneton that run HP Ice (only about 24%, granted) will OHKO Dugtrio IIRC, so even if it only has Sub and not Magnet Rise it can still win.

I was considering the fact that Swellow has U-turn. Swellow doesn't usually start off by spamming Facade when U-turn is great for avoiding status damage and scouting.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Just to clarify, the Rotom set I was using previously was an offensive SubCharge set. I dropped it and went back to my old SubCharge Magneton (and holy shit at how popular it is now) and converted Rotom into the defensive set 031ap posted. The EVs are funky (I made this thing at 3 in the morning) but the general purpose is to maximize offensive ability and physical defense while running enough speed to outrun some of the faster defensive Pokemon (like Uxie). I wouldn't recommend dropping Shadow Ball or Discharge for WoW, since then you're screwed against Ground and Normal types, respectively. If you want, you can drop Substitute for Reflect or WoW, but I like it with Sub so it can pull off a pseduo SubRoost strategy with Pain Split while waiting for paralysis to kick in (an extremely effective and sadistic strategy, I might add)

 

[M BLADE]

If there's any problems for anything being Dugtrio bait, use Shed Shell... or Porygon 2 to turn Dugtrio into a bait. Or both, and laugh at Duggie while it accomplishes nothing.

Being trapped by Dugtrio sucks at times though. Also, Rotom can act as a spinblocker and status spreader. I know Aggron has his own advantages, and is really tough to compare two pokés of completely different natures, but defensive wise I see Rotom performing better.

Well, Rotom still has the ghost/electric type. And Pain Split. Aggron has its gigantic 180 defense and nothing else defensively. So Rotom is the better choice logically. But both serves as a Swellow counter(Aggron is much more threatening offensively and takes much less from Swollow attacks, Rotom is MUCH more reliable against its switch ins).

 

[BurtonEarny]

If there's any problems for anything being Dugtrio bait, use Shed Shell... or Porygon 2 to turn Dugtrio into a bait. Or both, and laugh at Duggie while it accomplishes nothing.



Well, Rotom still has the ghost/electric type. And Pain Split. Aggron has its gigantic 180 defense and nothing else defensively. So Rotom is the better choice logically. But both serves as a Swellow counter(Aggron is much more threatening offensively and takes much less from Swollow attacks, Rotom is MUCH more reliable against its switch ins).

in all honestly... porygon 2 doesn't have enough uses to warrant a spot on the team imo. Sure he has some relatively obscure ones, but for the most part standard uu doesn't really allow him to shine.

 

[M BLADE]

in all honestly... porygon 2 doesn't have enough uses to warrant a spot on the team imo. Sure he has some relatively obscure ones, but for the most part standard uu doesn't really allow him to shine.

So just use Shed Shell and switch to something that can take attacks from Dugtrio. No need for Porygon 2 unless you want to have one. I just mentioned him because he's a surefire counter to Duggie since it traps it and can take its Earthquakes.

 

[Nas]

Honestly Dugtrio isn't even used enough to warrant the use of Shed Shell, Leftovers will be the better choice 99% of the time.

On a totally random and unrelated note, SubCharge Rotom > Subcharge Magneton.

 

[Mattman324]

No, that's kinda related. Magnaton's uses are somewhat few (Steel trapping really), but oddly enough, while it is not as good as Rotom as a Swellow counter, it... makes a good team mate, the same way Old UU's Probopass did.

 

[Diesel]

When does the voting occur?

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Honestly Dugtrio isn't even used enough to warrant the use of Shed Shell, Leftovers will be the better choice 99% of the time.

On a totally random and unrelated note, SubCharge Rotom > Subcharge Magneton.

It's not totally random and unrelated, as we've been discussing those two Pokemon for the past few posts. :)

Last month, Rotom got 3,416 usages, whilst Magneton got 3,251 usages, so they're both getting used a similar amount.

16% of Rotom have Substitute, and 12% have Charge Beam.

77% of Magneton have Substitute, and 19% have Charge Beam.

So I'd assume that more people are using Magneton for SubCharge than Rotom, although that doesn't mean SubCharge Magneton is better.

Magneton's 13 resistances make it very easy to switch in, I find, and since there's only 4 types it doesn't resist, I often find that there's many Pokemon I can switch Magneton into without having to think. Rotom's also quite easy to switch-in though, and he can switch in on Earthquakes, whilst Magneton can't be immune to Earthquake until it uses Magnet Rise. However, with Magneton, I can randomly explode and take out an opponent.

I don't really know which is better. In general, I prefer Magneton, (it's Thunderbolt is so strong, it's not even funny!) but I don't use SubCharge much, and Rotom can burn things, which is cool. However, with Magneton, there's the whole "What Hidden Power does it have?" issue that the opponent experiences. I can use HP Fire on Magneton, and my opponent will often not risk switching in their Rhyperior, because they know a lot of Magneton have HP Grass, HP Ice or HP Ground. It's hard to call.

 

[Yuggles]

Is anyone else finding the metagame really stale lately? For example:

The rise in Scyther/Swellow/generic physical normal types lately means I pretty much have to use Registeel/Uxie on my team, or in odd cases, Regirock or Rhyperior. In addition, the grass-fire-water combo is just too good to pass up, which really limits the kind of Pokemon you can use. Not in the Water category perhaps, but the only truly good Grass type is Venasaur, and Fire types are limited to Arcanine and Moltres. So by now your team looks like this:

Registeel or a rock type, perhaps Rotom
Venasaur
Bulky water
Arcanine/Moltres

Oh, but if you're using Moltres, or Arcanine + any other SR weak Pokemon, you want a spinner too. And out of those 4 spots already reserved on your team, the only one who can spin is Blastoise, who's set up bait and doesn't even have recovery on him, which is increasingly important on water types. Your only other good spinner options are Hitmontop and Donphan. Hitmontop has to run Foresight + RS to be effective, so he's also set up bait. Donphan is, admittedly, a fantastic mon to use, but now you've only got one spot left to fill in the resistance gaps you have left, which could be a few of: Ground, Psychic, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Flying. Also keeping in mind you'll probably want at least 2 resists for Fire, Grass, Water, Ice, Electric, Ground, and Fighting. Suddenly that last spot isn't nearly as customizable as you want, plus if your team is indeed Venasaur/Milotic/Arcanine/Donphan + Steel/Rock/Uxie, you'll want that last member to either be really fast, or operate well using a Scarf, since currently your team is slow as hell! Also keep other stuff in mind for your already stressed team:

-The most used Pokemon in UU can put you to sleep on a whim. Your choices to counter it are limited to: Honchkrow (soon to be banned), Swellow, and on a limb, Hypno. Restalkers too of course but by using them you lose all momentum you had going.
-Spike stacking is fairly common so make sure you really do need one of those 3 good spinners!
-You'll want an immunity to T-wave and Toxic in there somewhere, no doubt.
-You need someone with Roar/Whirlwind, or Trick, or Encore in there to stop setup sweepers.
-and so on and so forth

Now I'm sure there's a lot of holes in that argument, but that's just my opinion and I want to see if anyone shares it with me. Thank goodness a bit of a tier change could be upon us (although since it's likely getting rid of an Insomnia user, that's not quite as good as people may think)

To clear this up quickly, this is just my opinion and how I see UU nowadays. imo that is a solid outline of how balanced teams work these days. I didn't talk about other types of play since Stall is dead, 'Bulky offense' pretty much goes by the same rules as Balance, havent seen Hyper offense in days and I find it to be even less viable than Balance, and Rain/Sun/Hail teams are all exactly the same save one or two personal choices, and although they can be effective, they're even more boring than balance.

Again, this is all my opinion but I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same??

 

[MagicMaster87]

I wouldn't call Blastoise setup bait, not when it has access to Yawn and Roar to foil any attempts to set up on it.

Also, Arcanine, slow? 95 base Speed isn't slow at all, especially when most of the tier is base 80 Speed or lower (Gallade, Blaziken, Venusaur, Registeel, Honchkrow, etc.).

I've had good success using Claydol as a Rapid Spinner. Immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes and a resistance to Stealth Rocks has always made it my favorite Spinner, even back when I played in OU. It also is immune to Thunder Wave if you're worried about that.

 

[Yuggles]

Yeah, you can tweak movesets, but you're still using the same bog Pokemon. The tactics you outlined aren't really that common, either:

Unfortunately, Roar is only used on 25% of Blastoise, and Yawn, only 22%. Perhaps he can stop setup sweepers early on, but wearing him down is very easy, and Rapid Spin + Roar/Yawn means you only have room for Surf and Ice beam, which is the main way you'll get set up on.

Half of Arcanines use Adamant as their nature, and over 50% use less than 150 Speed EVs. So Arcanine's large Speed isn't really abused too much. And when I meant you want someone fast, I meant someone with a Scarf, or at least 110 base speed. 95 doesn't really cut it if that's the fastest guy you have.

I will admit I forgot about Claydol, but being 27th in usage, you kind of forget about him, heh.

 

[Mattman324]

-The most used Pokemon in UU can put you to sleep on a whim. Your choices to counter it are limited to: Honchkrow (soon to be banned), Swellow, and on a limb, Hypno. Restalkers too of course but by using them you lose all momentum you had going.

Yeah right. There IS a reason that Sleep Clause is standard: Sleep's being broken and all. But if a pokemon is already put to sleep, then the counter list SOARS.



To name a few Counters/checks:

• Miltank (Can outstall EQ/PW/Synthesis/SP Venusaur, which is pretty common)
• Restalk Regice (Which any one worth it's salt should be, IMO.)
• Primape + Dodrio/fast flying type.
• Ursaring.
• Fire Fang Arbok.
• Flamethrower/Fire Blast Seviper.
• Flamethrower/Fire Blast Dragonair.

I think I've made my point.