np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[franky]

If you guys really want a solid Sleep Talker in UU, I wrote an analysis long time ago about Rest Talk Arcanine (I believe its on site, but never got to place Venusaur's description), and it's probably the best Venusaur check at the moment. I play it with Stealth Rock and Spikes, and I use the movesets Rest / Sleep Talk / Flare Blitz / Roar. Its very difficult to bring down with Rapid Spin support, and Venusaur can't do much to it except deal 34% with Earthquake (without Intimidate). Besides, not many Venusaur will gabmle staying in to die from a possible Flare Blitz through Sleep Talk.

Also, getting back to the topic about Rotom, its pretty durable for the most part. I don't run Substitute though because I need to space in Shadow Ball to actually spin block and hit Donphan even though Assurance deals like 14%. What EV spread are you guys running? I think I'm running enough to outpace beneficial base 80's and placing 252 EVs on HP. The surplus is added on Defense to check Swellow and Honchkrow.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

Speaking of ResTalkers, ResTalk Altaria is amazing. Pair it up with Registeel and both of their weaknesses are perfectly covered. It also is a perfect counter to Venusaur, unless it runs Sludge Bomb, and in that case Registeel is even more valuable.

 

[Yuggles]

Yeah right. There IS a reason that Sleep Clause is standard: Sleep's being broken and all. But if a pokemon is already put to sleep, then the counter list SOARS.



To name a few Counters/checks:

• Miltank (Can outstall EQ/PW/Synthesis/SP Venusaur, which is pretty common)
• Restalk Regice (Which any one worth it's salt should be, IMO.)
• Primape + Dodrio/fast flying type.
• Ursaring.
• Fire Fang Arbok.
• Flamethrower/Fire Blast Seviper.
• Flamethrower/Fire Blast Dragonair.

I think I've made my point.

Aside from Miltank, all the Pokemon you listed are NU. I'm aware that not all NU Pokemon are inviable in this tier, but it does lower their credibility, and it also means they're rarely seen.

My point was that, in your team, you need to counter a Pokemon that has a 18% chance of being on your opponent's team, and it can easily incapacitate a Pokemon for several turns. All the Pokemon you listed (and I did too, but I used viable Pokemon) except Regice are only temporary counters. They can prevent *themselves* from being put to sleep, but the second you switch out, the new guy can easily be slept. Not to mention that Arbok, Seviper, and Dragonair can't really check Venasaur at all, but those are pretty ludicrous options in the first place.

I'm aware of sleep clause, my argument is not "Sleep is broken", it's that "Sleep is extremely common and the options you have to beat it are quite limited"

That Arcanine sounds like it could work, but I'm not sure how effective it would be outside of countering Venasaur. I'm sure most people would rather run Morning Sun. And this is IMO, but Altaria is junk, Toxic is really the only useful method of attacking it has (I'm aware of Dragon Pulse and Fire Blast, but coming of of base 70 SPA is brutal) and I doubt anyone is going to be using Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic/Fire Blast anytime soon. If you are indeed using ResTalk Altaria or Arcanine, my point about losing all momentum is mostly true.

 

[Stagnant]

Aside from Miltank, all the Pokemon you listed are NU. I'm aware that not all NU Pokemon are inviable in this tier, but it does lower their credibility, and it also means they're rarely seen.

I hate that mentality...

Anyways, yea UU has become stale but that always happens after the initial rush of using 'new' Pokemon in the tier.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I hate that mentality...

The arguement is perfectly valid though.

 

[M BLADE]

People don't use NU because they're accomodate using UU, that's all.
Hypno is one of the best Venusaur counters, plain and simple. It is only beaten if it switches in while Venusaur uses SD then Power Whip.
Drifblim uses Venusaur to set up if it has Sub(to avoid Leech Seed), resisting any attack Venusaur normally uses.
Glaceon is acceptable if it avoids Sleep Powder. The sheer power of Glaceon also means it's going to hurt pretty much anything switchng in.

Drifblim isn't NU, but it could probably fall to NU. The others are NU examples of good pokes that can counter Venusaur.

 

[Bluewind]

People don't use NU because they're accomodate using UU, that's all.
Hypno is one of the best Venusaur counters, plain and simple. It is only beaten if it switches in while Venusaur uses SD then Power Whip.
Drifblim uses Venusaur to set up if it has Sub(to avoid Leech Seed), resisting any attack Venusaur normally uses.
Glaceon is acceptable if it avoids Sleep Powder. The sheer power of Glaceon also means it's going to hurt pretty much anything switchng in.

Drifblim isn't NU, but it could probably fall to NU. The others are NU examples of good pokes that can counter Venusaur.

Beating Hypno ain't hard at all it seems, because simple prediction will get around that (or maybe that isn't even needed, as not everybody just fires off Sleep Powders on the 1st turn), Drifblim can't switch into Sleep Powder, unless it's holding Chesto Berry, and as you said, it's UU. Plus, it's not only Drifblim who can setup on Venusaur.
Regarding Glageon, take the same sentence, change Glaceon for Moltres and you have a much more effective "counter".
I'm not saying NUs are completely uneffective in this metagame, but there's a reason their tiering is such. Pokés like Tauros can and have worked in this metagame, but if we go as far as using Wormadam to counter stuff (like we did when Roserade was around), the metagame will be even more fucked up.

 

[M BLADE]

Beating Hypno ain't hard at all it seems, because simple prediction will get around that (or maybe that isn't even needed, as not everybody just fires off Sleep Powders on the 1st turn), Drifblim can't switch into Sleep Powder, unless it's holding Chesto Berry, and as you said, it's UU. Plus, it's not only Drifblim who can setup on Venusaur.
Regarding Glageon, take the same sentence, change Glaceon for Moltres and you have a much more effective "counter".
I'm not saying NUs are completely uneffective in this metagame, but there's a reason their tiering is such. Pokés like Tauros can and have worked in this metagame, but if we go as far as using Wormadam to counter stuff (like we did when Roserade was around), the metagame will be even more fucked up.

The thing is that Moltres and Glaceon can take different pokes out. Can Moltres take Altaria? Can Glaceon take Registeel?
Hypno can just paralize whatever switching in while Venusaur switches out(or stays to die).

A example of what i'm trying to say:
Skuntank can take out any Ghost and Psychic poke with ease, then Explode later to open the way to rapid spinners or sweepers. Also can't be killed by Duggie because of Sucker Punch. What else can do that in UU? If you try to make a "Drapion-like set" for Skuntank you're just making a outclassed poke. How i concluded that? Testing Skuntank.

Using NU pokes is to explore the metagame. You'll find many pokes that fit many roles in many teams. For example, i still use a Muk lead from 2 months ago with Gunk Shot/Brick Break/Shadow Sneak/Explosion. I use it because its good as a lead, taking out Ambipom and Froslass and avoiding being Tricked, while it can Explode on anything slower. How did i found that out? USING IT.
Same thing for lead Ampharos, which i found out to be quite good.

That's why i'm always posting some opinions about some "non used" pokes. I'm exploring the metagame, and finding many good things...

Oh yes: You can't use a poke just to do one single job(like using Wormadan to wall Roserade). That's... well, dumb to say at least.



Anyway: MERRY CHRISTIMAS TO EVERYONE LOL

 

[Bluewind]

The thing is that Moltres and Glaceon can take different pokes out. Can Moltres take Altaria? Can Glaceon take Registeel?
Hypno can just paralize whatever switching in while Venusaur switches out(or stays to die).

A example of what i'm trying to say:
Skuntank can take out any Ghost and Psychic poke with ease, then Explode later to open the way to rapid spinners or sweepers. Also can't be killed by Duggie because of Sucker Punch. What else can do that in UU? If you try to make a "Drapion-like set" for Skuntank you're just making a outclassed poke. How i concluded that? Testing Skuntank.

Using NU pokes is to explore the metagame. You'll find many pokes that fit many roles in many teams. For example, i still use a Muk lead from 2 months ago with Gunk Shot/Brick Break/Shadow Sneak/Explosion. I use it because its good as a lead, taking out Ambipom and Froslass and avoiding being Tricked, while it can Explode on anything slower. How did i found that out? USING IT.
Same thing for lead Ampharos, which i found out to be quite good.

That's why i'm always posting some opinions about some "non used" pokes. I'm exploring the metagame, and finding many good things...

Oh yes: You can't use a poke just to do one single job(like using Wormadan to wall Roserade). That's... well, dumb to say at least.



Anyway: MERRY CHRISTIMAS TO EVERYONE LOL

One thinging is being able to hit Altaria, who'll need some good defensive investment and has a 2x SR weaknessm with a 75 base attack STAB for neutral damage, and the other is hitting Registeel, a natually bulky pokémon with SR resistance for 10% of damgae, What I mean with this is that, as an overall sweeper, Moltres outclasses Glaceon because he's able to sweep a much greater part of the metagame.
Regarding Skuntank yes, it's an awesome poké, and even though it's inferior in many aspects, it has Explosion, more bulk (IIRC) and Aftermath; but these are two completely different cases. Skuntank has a whole set of factors going on his favor, while Glaceon has little to none, and that's what I'm trying to prove with my arguments.

Well, as you reminded me, Merry Xmas to all of you =)

 

[M BLADE]

One thinging is being able to hit Altaria, who'll need some good defensive investment and has a 2x SR weaknessm with a 75 base attack STAB for neutral damage, and the other is hitting Registeel, a natually bulky pokémon with SR resistance for 10% of damgae, What I mean with this is that, as an overall sweeper, Moltres outclasses Glaceon because he's able to sweep a much greater part of the metagame.
Regarding Skuntank yes, it's an awesome poké, and even though it's inferior in many aspects, it has Explosion, more bulk (IIRC) and Aftermath; but these are two completely different cases. Skuntank has a whole set of factors going on his favor, while Glaceon has little to none, and that's what I'm trying to prove with my arguments.

Well, as you reminded me, Merry Xmas to all of you =)

I don't see Glaceon as a sweeper... it's too slow for that. I see just a "hit and run" kind of poke, or a supporting one with Wish, Fake Tears, Barrier BP passing... and Moltres has a good defensive typing, while Glaceon is a... Ice type...
Glaceon looks more like Heatran/Magnezone... has a great sp.atk and good defensive stats, while being slow. But Heatran and Magnezone has really good typings with plenty of resists... and Glaceon fails hard in that regard.

Largely outclassed by Moltres(and many special sweepers with at least decent speed) if you try to use it as a sweeper, just like Skuntank is outclassed by Drapion on the sweeping side.

 

[Thund91]

Ahhh the good old days when Staraptor was around and I used a defensive Glaceon. I miss it. And weirdly enough the Glaceon was actually effective. *shrug*

And it's nice to see some less common pokemon being talked about in this topic. I love Hypno and when I used him (though it was like 2 months ago) he was really effective. Was always a good answer to Venusaur and lots of special based pokes. Though I think now with Honchkrow he's probably worse, the banhammer might change that. :)
He's really versatile too, I mean sure his most common/best set is a special sponge that uses Wish, but NP sweeper, NP pass, and Belly Drum were all cool sets to experiment with.

 

[A.P.]

Anyways, on an unrelated note, who here has seen the massive Swellow rise in recent weeks?

I'm glad in a way that more and more people are finally beginning to respect and understand the sheer power that Swellow brings. Though it relies a good deal on support, Swellow, with its Rock/Steel enemies gone, and bulky defenders weakened, has the potential to rip straight through a team. In particular, offensive teams are wrecked by Swellow (realistically, the only common Offense Pokes able to stop Swellow are either Rhyperior or Aggron, and the former still takes a good deal from Facade on its offensive sets).

I've personally used Swellow to great effect, as, contrary to popular belief, is not only an extremely potent and powerful clean-up Poke, it's a reliable early- to mid-game scout, even outside of the lead position. Unlike many sweepers a la SD Lucario or DD Salamence, Swellow doesn't even require something similar to it that lures out the counters, it can perform the job itself with U-turn. And oftentimes, if your opponent has a threatening sweeper raring to bullrush through your team, Swellow, if you've played smart with it (IMO, it's very beneficial to make risky plays and come in on things like predicted Donphan/Rhyperior EQs), can easily take that Pokemon out.

In more specialized instances, rare varieties of Swellow carrying Pursuit can catch many things on the switch, though the sheer surprise of this can be your demise; trying to catch something like Missy as it goes to switch almost fails, simply because the team won't have anything else to take a hit from Swellow, and you'll likely be met with a decisive Thunderbolt.

Swellow's usefulness in this metagame is more primarily against offensive teams, which it checks to no end. Between a ridiculously powerful Facade, a good backup in Brave Bird, and a nice aside in Quick Attack, few teams can stop Swellow in the endgame.

Offensive teams in particular are decimated by Swellow, but balanced and defensive teams usually carry hard counters to Swellow in the form of Rock/Steels. Offensive teams do have priority, but any smart Swellow user should know to conserve the Swellow, and go to something that can absorb the hit with ease.

Good partners to Swellow, apart from ones that can absorb priority (really, here it's only the attacker in question that matters, resists are useful). Honchkrow is great for breaking into them with Superpower, and especially on stall, where Swellow often doesn't get the chance to come in, Honchkrow typically lures out its checks/counters. Dugtrio is obvious for obvious reasons. Typically, most powerful Fighting or Ground-types work here, though things like Moltres and Blaziken should be noted.

Opinions?

 

[Mike Legend]

Swellow is a beast, no doubt. I have to make sure I keep my Regirock alive it will tear my team apart. The only other member on my team who can even think about taking a hit from Swellow is Blastoise and even he can't switch in.

The easiest way to beat Swellow is keep your rocks up. Flame/Toxic Orb damage and damage from Stealth Rocks is it's second best counter after Aggron, Regis, etc.

I'm dissapointed to see people still running Protect on Swellow. It really is a waste of a moveslot. Predicting an Earthquake or a Shadow Ball doesn't require much effort and it allows room for Quick Attack which allows Swellow to beat Honchkrow.

 

[M BLADE]

First: It's only me, or i'm not getting "dislogged" everytime now?

Well, about Swellow: yes, Swellow is used to check many offensive threats. Mainly because it's the second fastest UU poke, with the right ability(Guts) and two powerful attacks(Facade and Brave Bird).
But Swellow life is normally short, especially if it uses Brave Bird. Being completely walled by two types isn't nice(at least there's not many steels in UU... though there are plenty of rock types...).
Like you said, Aggron is the main problem for Swellow, since Swellow does nothing agaisnt it and Head Smash hurts anything switching in. And like you said, Dugtrio is a good partner for Swellow.
It is also really frail, and can't take many priority attacks(Aqua Jet from a CB Azumarill is a OHKO with Stealth Rock fro example... and after a SD ,Aqua Jet from Feraligatr is also a OHKO... just showing some examples)
Swellow is one of the best pokes to check offensive teams, that's for sure.

 

[Erazor]

Allright, just when is voting going to take place?

 

[reachzero]

We should have the final voter list today or tomorrowish, and voting should be not long after that.

 

[capefeather]

Sweet. I can't wait for people to stop complaining (more than before the dropdown) about UU. Oh yes, and broken UUs going to BL will be great too.

 

[M BLADE]

So that means the "broken" ones going to BL, huh? Nice...





Okay, let's "revive" this topic a little...

I'm using a mono normal team now that is strangely ripping teams apart.
For a mono team, 15 consecutive wins without a single loss is difficult. That means normal is a really good type in UU?

The team consists of:

-Lead Ambipom with Payback over Low Kick
-Nasty Plot Persian with Hypnosis
-Scarf Zangoose with Double Edge
-Focus Sash Clefable with Counter(the best i could do against fighting pokes... since Clefable doesn't take SR/Spikes/Toxic/Burn damage, Clefable is free to counter fighting pokes without many problems)
-CB Tauros
-Flame Orb Swellow

Yes, this one is a fast team. Mostly walled by Miltank though.
I really, really don't know why i'm winning so much with that team

 

[Erazor]

Didn't you meet at least one Regirock/Steelix? Not to mention that Rotom, Mismagius, Spiritomb, and maybe Swellow can rape this team...

 

[capefeather]

Well, we do have the heavy offense team style, whose members aim to be defensively countered by the same things. Maybe being offensively countered by the same things has some kind of undiscovered merit? :) Or maybe your opponents just sucked or were taken by surprise. :(

 

[Stagnant]

Anyone up for some Theorymoning?

Lets say that all current suspects will be removed to BL. How drastic will the metagame change? The only alteration I can foresee is a small jump in Mismag and Moltres usage and a handful more of stall teams. Even if one suspect leaves I don't really see any drastic changes to the meta. Whether this could be a good or bad thing... I don't know.

 

[Smurf.]

Anyone up for some Theorymoning?

Lets say that all current suspects will be removed to BL. How drastic will the metagame change? The only alteration I can foresee is a small jump in Mismag and Moltres usage and a handful more of stall teams. Even if one suspect leaves I don't really see any drastic changes to the meta. Whether this could be a good or bad thing... I don't know.

For one, I can see stall having a massive resurgence. A well made stall team i.e. trickroom's. can wall all the significant threats without much trouble. To take away the likes of Gallade and Honch would simply add to the solidity of stall teams. If anything, i would rather see some offensive pokes to drop down from OU to UU, in order to break the rather monotonous metagame we have at present. In particular, i could see jolteon or electivire come down and really make things interesting. It wouldn't be ridiculously overpowered i would think, anyone care to discuss?

 

[Heysup]

While I don't like to "theorymon" much, this is sort of different.

Anyone up for some Theorymoning?

Lets say that all current suspects will be removed to BL. How drastic will the metagame change? The only alteration I can foresee is a small jump in Mismag and Moltres usage and a handful more of stall teams. Even if one suspect leaves I don't really see any drastic changes to the meta. Whether this could be a good or bad thing... I don't know.

It would be a step in the right direction. We would be closer to a balanced metagame.

If you have a broken metagame, and take the broken Pokemon out of this metagame, you should get (at least relatively close to) a balanced metagame. We would be back where we were a couple months ago, right after Yanmega was banned....

 

[reachzero]

The voting threads are now up! Congratulations to all the eligible voters!

 

[M BLADE]

Didn't you meet at least one Regirock/Steelix? Not to mention that Rotom, Mismagius, Spiritomb, and maybe Swellow can rape this team...

I met Slowbro and Miltank... who easily walled me lol.
I lost 3 times because of them.
Spiritomb, Rotom and Mismagius are't that much of a problem(since i have many speedy pokes and Swellow can take Spiritomb out).
Regirock and Steelix needs to watch out for repeated SE hits. Slowbro and Miltank doesn't because it can recover their health. The only hope to get past both is Persian.
Oh well, maybe i just faced many unprepared people lol. Even me couldn't believe how many times i was winning with this simple team...




Theorymon now: I believe that Registeel will go back to the top 3. Regirock will also be more used. Also Hitmonlee.
Maybe Cloyster will go back to NU(it's NU now, but it's pretty clear it's going to be UU this month).
Theorymon, but maybe Arcanine usage will fall due to no
Gallade/Honchrow... or it's going to rise even more(taking Venusaur place) depending of what happens to the metagame after the "suspect" thing.

We can also see Heracross falling down to UU... i believe it shouldn't even be tested, since it's even better than Gallade, not to mention it resists two of the most used priorities in UU(Sucker Punch and Mach Punch). Heracross IS too much for UU, not even worth of discussing. I believe it's even more difficult to wall than Honchrow.