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np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Just so you guys know, SEXP is based on suspects you face as well as suspects you use.
Even if that is the case, you probably aren't going to get enough SEXP voting rights if you don't use the suspects. You shouldn't anyway...
Incorrect. It has already been established that although you may gain more SEXP from using the suspect, there is an integral part of playing against the suspect that gets counted in the formula. After all, both parties (the user and the opponent) experience opinions about whether the suspect is broken or not, and therefore both matter in the formula calculation. Just because one is perceived to be more important than the other doesn't mean you cannot gain voting rights playing against the suspect moreso than using it yourself.
One aspect isn't perceived to be more important, they should be both equally weighed. People should not be able to vote without using the suspect, and similarly they should not be able to vote without facing the suspect (if we can avoid it at least).
They should both be required, imo. Is it possible to add diminishing returns to this formula? Maybe I'm over-analyzing it, but I don't think it's fair to give people who are highly likely to be biased the right to vote.
As a general argument against "You must use a Pokemon to tell if it's broken", remember that in order to vote, you must maintain a somewhat high rating, play a lot of battles, and have faced or used the suspect a certain amount of times. There is no actual reason that even if you have all that exposure to the suspect that you would actually have to use him in order to formulate a valid opinion.
Second, if you notice that the suspect sweeps when you use it, but not when it's not used against you, you could, you know, not use the Suspect. The metagame in which a Pokemon isn't allowed and the metagame in which a Pokemon isn't used are identical. This is obviously hyperbolic, but picture an OU in which Mr. Mime is banned. Is it any different to what we currently have? Simply put, it's never been broken when used against you, you have absolutely no incentive to ban it. You gain nothing by banning a Pokemon that people can't sweep you with. And if you really are using it to sweep people, then those people you face will be wanting it banned so your vote doesn't even make a difference.
Also consider Pokemon like Agility Empoleon in OU. Obviously not a broken Pokemon, but most people know how easily it can sweep given the opportunity. People have based teams around it and gotten very easy, consistent sweeps, but it's obviously not a broken Pokemon.
Second, if you've noticed broken Pokemon running rampant, vote them BL. I've never said you can't, in fact I've said that's exactly why you should vote a Pokemon BL. But if you've been sweeping easily with a Pokemon, that shouldn't tell you anything new that your other experiences haven't.
Second, if you notice that the suspect sweeps when you use it, but not when it's not used against you, you could, you know, not use the Suspect. The metagame in which a Pokemon isn't allowed and the metagame in which a Pokemon isn't used are identical. This is obviously hyperbolic, but picture an OU in which Mr. Mime is banned. Is it any different to what we currently have? Simply put, it's never been broken when used against you, you have absolutely no incentive to ban it. You gain nothing by banning a Pokemon that people can't sweep you with. And if you really are using it to sweep people, then those people you face will be wanting it banned so your vote doesn't even make a difference.
What the fuck. Swellow and Shiftry are obviously not broken. Saying that they could be claimed to be broken doesn't support your argument, it undermines it.
Also consider Pokemon like Agility Empoleon in OU. Obviously not a broken Pokemon, but most people know how easily it can sweep given the opportunity. People have based teams around it and gotten very easy, consistent sweeps, but it's obviously not a broken Pokemon.
Define overprepared. Generally, it means one of two things. Either one, it becomes so prepared for one threat that it becomes vulnerable to other threats, in which case that is clearly not a competitive team and not one that would bring consistent success. No one would continue a team that consistently fails like that, so they wouldn't base their suspect experience off of that. Or two, you mean the threat has become "overcentralized", which is not a characteristic.
In which case, who gives a shit if it's allowed or not? If no one uses it it makes no difference.
If it's broken and one person is abusing, why wouldn't others be abusing it? You would have to actually justify that before you can go into these hypothetical "oh but what if..." scenarios. Second, if one person really is dominating the ladder with that Pokemon, then surely all those other battlers will vote it BL, and the one vote won't make a difference.
That definition is completely circular. "Banning broken Pokemon is good because it leads to a balanced metagame, which is a metagame without broken Pokemon."
Second, if you've noticed broken Pokemon running rampant, vote them BL. I've never said you can't, in fact I've said that's exactly why you should vote a Pokemon BL. But if you've been sweeping easily with a Pokemon, that shouldn't tell you anything new that your other experiences haven't.
You need to consider both sides of the suspect (when you use or when it's used against you) in order for your paragraphs to be accepted (ideally, that is).
Also, I think it's ironic that you are now saying you would have "had to" played the suspect a good amount of times when that completely dismisses your next argument:
Why would you not use the suspect when you're winning with it? Where is the logic behind that?umbarsc said:
And your analogy makes absolutely no sense. A Pokemon that doesn't sweep you =/= a Pokemon that isn't used. If that was the case, no one would use Honchkrow because 031ap doesn't lose to it.
Anyway, remember when we agreed that Honchkrow is being used?
Your hypothetical analogies are all irrelevant.
There is obviously a varying degree of "sweeping easily" then. For example, Shiftry and Honchkrow clearly have different degrees of successful sweeping / destroying teams. While they do the same thing, Honchkrow is simply better at it.umbarsc said:
Because the metagame isn't balanced. We've been over this.umbarsc said:
Really...umbarsc said:
Your whole argument is one big hypothetical "oh but what if". You have been saying "oh but what if your opponent's all suck" and "oh but what if Honchkrow is never used against you" and the like. They are all irrelevant to what is actually happening.
Also, You say "if it's broken and one person is abusing it, why wouldn't others be abusing it"....what does it matter if people use it? Usually people will use a broken, Pokemon, but that doesn't matter since usage =/= power. Look at Wobbuffet. There are broken Pokemon that simply aren't used for "whatever" reason; not everyone uses the bulky Froslass that I, Xianglongfa, and others used and abused to easily get ~top 5-10. Why? I don't know. All that matters is that it happens, and there is clear evidence that usage =/= power.
It will. Trusting your opponent's to have used it to its utmost highest potential is silly, while at the same time, assuming your opponent's all suck is also silly. You gain a whole new perspective when you personally use it, and it eliminates any biases you may have. That's like, for example, if my whole family hated/doesn't eat bacon, by your logic I wouldn't gain anything by trying it. Good thing I don't follow your logic, otherwise I would be missing out on the awesomeness of bacon!umbarsc said:
EDIT: Well I'm not even going to bother responding to you distorting my argument for the nth time. And on top of that it seems you can't grasp even my simple points.
At this point you're ignoring the real arguments in favor of making one giant strawman. You're not even being self-consistent, and what you're arguing against isn't even what I'm trying to get at.
A few things I found particularly ironic, though.
A few things I found particularly ironic, though.
I thought you needed to have used a Pokemon to tell how broken it is?
Isn't that your argument? "Maybe your opponents suck at using it", "maybe you haven't been facing people who have been using it".
I do think this argue is taking the whole thread nowhere, but I really couldn't let this pass. I know I'm not Heysup and that I'm not the one that should be answering to this as well, but it'd be good if you stopped to distort all arguments in and retain yourself to your own, and from there try to prove your point; like Ap did for example. I believe everybody got the point of what he meant and you did as well, so unless you think we should elevate Magikarp to a suspect's level, as nobody has tested it so far, better leave it alone.
Sorry if this sounds rude, as I don't mean to insult anybody with this post.
Sorry if this sounds rude, as I don't mean to insult anybody with this post.
Ok, sure.
Who also thinks Arcanine is possibly the most useful pokemon in the metagame, being able to do like, anything. Its flexibility reminds me a lot of Gyarados in OU.
Added to that, no dual typing, thus no 4x weakness, instant recovery move, priority, 120 Base STAB, access to WoW, all that on a less agressive metagame.... yeah Arcanine is da pokémon nowadays.
Arcanine doesn't need to sweep. It's other useful qualities definitely out weigh it. It's just a great support pokemon on almost any team.
Nas
Banned deucer.
No dual typing also means it has no 4x resistances, and its recovery move has low pp and is near useless against hail/sand/rain. Add to that a SR weakness and it doesn't seem as great, does it?
...not to say that Arcanine isn't a useful pokemon, but you make it out to be like BL material or something.
Talking about Arcanine, he owns....I recently started triying him out, and i just love him, he is just one reliable dog that is able to pwn hard, and when he is about to give his last breath, he can poke the other poke(lolzz...) with E-speed before it dies, Who knows? maybe he gets a crit and lives another day?
I don't want to talk about Arcanine, we already know it's utterly sexy. Let's talk about what the best sets for Rhyperior/Alakazam are and how to make them suck less.
I beg to differ, Quilfish is the most useful Pokemon. Why? Arcanine, Water-Types, Fighting/Ice/Water Resist, and of course movepool. I could go on and on about how damn useful he is but I'm feeling lazy.
Lead off with Zam. All offensive set with a Focus Sash. Anything else is rubbish.
Rhyperior is a beastly Baton Pass Target however, if you do not want to dedicate team members to Baton Passing I would suggest a 252hp/252def+. He still hits like a Mac Truck and can now take a fair share of SE (physical) hits.
Edit:
A little side section... this is my "Expectations of UU Pokemon". Overlooking over the top few Pokemon and essentially the thoughts that go through my noggin when they switch in for the first time.
1. Venusaur: Max Speed, Sleep Powder, Swords Dance
2. Arcanine: Max Speed, Toxic, Hp Grass
3. Honchkrow:
4. Uxie: Stealth Rock, Trick Scarf
5. Mismagius: Substitute, Nasty Plot, Taunt
6. Raikou: Calm Mind, Hp Grass
7. Ambipom: If no LO expect Taunt
8. Gallade:
9. Registeel: Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock
10. Froslass: Spikes, Taunt
11. Hitmontop: Rapid Spin
12. Milotic: Max Speed, Life Orb
13. Spiritomb: Will O Wisp, Calm Mind
14. Donphan: Stealth Rock, Roar
15. Alakazam: Encore, Substitute
16. Rhyperior: Rock Polish
21. Azumaril: Focus Punch
24. Feraligator: Dragon Dance, Swords Dance
Essentially the moves listed are in order of the threat level. Honchkrow and Gallade are left unmark for two different reasons. Honchkrow always uses the same set, barring Choice item (even then), with the exception of it's last slot that is usually Hp Grass or Roost. Gallade is as predictable as he is unpredictable.
Arcanine is that it's one of those Pokemon who you have on your team for 1000 different reasons. However the main reasons are that it checks a shit-ton of Pokmeon + it can sweep late game. Does that remind you of anyone in particular (hint: Crobat)?
Imo Arcanine is essentially pulling into a roll similar to Crobat's former roll (I SAID IT O:O:O:O), but I think to a lesser extent.
However, Arcanine doesn't have that godly Speed and immunity to Spikes that Crobat has, as well as being able to remove it's only prominent weaknesses (Ice and Rock mostly, since Electric was pretty rare at the time). It's definitely one of those always amazingly useful Pokemon.
Once Froslass is gone (will happen eventually, if not this round (I hope it does this round)), Arcanine will have a much easier time functioning. I really rarely have problems with Arcanine just because I spam Spikes with my Froslass, so it switches in with 50% after Spikes + SR.
Arcanine definitely has a possibility of being broken, but it definitely isn't yet.
Imo Arcanine is essentially pulling into a roll similar to Crobat's former roll (I SAID IT O:O:O:O), but I think to a lesser extent.
However, Arcanine doesn't have that godly Speed and immunity to Spikes that Crobat has, as well as being able to remove it's only prominent weaknesses (Ice and Rock mostly, since Electric was pretty rare at the time). It's definitely one of those always amazingly useful Pokemon.
Once Froslass is gone (will happen eventually, if not this round (I hope it does this round)), Arcanine will have a much easier time functioning. I really rarely have problems with Arcanine just because I spam Spikes with my Froslass, so it switches in with 50% after Spikes + SR.
Arcanine definitely has a possibility of being broken, but it definitely isn't yet.
Venusaur probably has something to do with it.
However I think people just simply stopped using Water-types for some reason (probably Venusaur...again. Maybe Raikou too). I mean, you can cover all of water's resistances by using a Grass + Fire Pokemon, the Water Pokemon only resists Water (covered by Grass), Ice, (covered by Fire) and Fire (covered by Fire).
I think Azumarill is always a good choice though. People should start using more offensive Water-types just for the sake of Arcanine and Venusaur being so common. LO Milotic, Feraligatr, and Azumarill can all get passed Venusaur quite easily, and they force Arcanine out.
However I think people just simply stopped using Water-types for some reason (probably Venusaur...again. Maybe Raikou too). I mean, you can cover all of water's resistances by using a Grass + Fire Pokemon, the Water Pokemon only resists Water (covered by Grass), Ice, (covered by Fire) and Fire (covered by Fire).
I think Azumarill is always a good choice though. People should start using more offensive Water-types just for the sake of Arcanine and Venusaur being so common. LO Milotic, Feraligatr, and Azumarill can all get passed Venusaur quite easily, and they force Arcanine out.
The sexy fire-water-grass core is possibly the reason behind Arcanine's no.2 spot. He has good enough bulk, intimidate, and can hit hard, with priority to boot. Why NOT use him?
I was thinking of trying out a howl sweeper when I get my comp fixed. However, apart from Flare blitz and XSpeed,what other options does he have? Morning sun, Iron Head, Thunder Fang?
There's a difference between offensive waters and bulky waters- the Bulky waters get murdered by Raikou, Gallade, Venusaur, and Leafeon. However, the offensive ones(Azumarill and Feraligatr specifically, maybe Lapras) don't care, they just hit hard before your opponent does.
I was thinking, is the old Calm Mind Mismagius still viable? I mean, for setting up in an opponent's face, Calm Mind is certainly better than NP...
I was thinking of trying out a howl sweeper when I get my comp fixed. However, apart from Flare blitz and XSpeed,what other options does he have? Morning sun, Iron Head, Thunder Fang?
There's a difference between offensive waters and bulky waters- the Bulky waters get murdered by Raikou, Gallade, Venusaur, and Leafeon. However, the offensive ones(Azumarill and Feraligatr specifically, maybe Lapras) don't care, they just hit hard before your opponent does.
I was thinking, is the old Calm Mind Mismagius still viable? I mean, for setting up in an opponent's face, Calm Mind is certainly better than NP...
I still back up what I've been saying for the last two months, Su(b)perior and Sub Offensive Alakazam are very effective when given the right support.
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