np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[M BLADE]

Arcanine: I said one millions times in this thread how i feel about Arcanine, so to summarize:
It can do pretty much every role, from sweeping to tanking. Many counters for Arcanine falls to the Sunnybeam set. To me, the best UU right now.
It's incredible how a poke with a shallow movepool ca be so good...(its movepool IS shallow. Flare Blitz, Extremespeed... and? Thunder Fang is too weak. Iron Head is a steel attack... Reversal?)
Ok, one thing i didn't said about Arcanine is: it makes one of the best Swords Dance receivers in UU. Being immune to Will-o-Wisp(in fact, said move only boosts Arcanine power) and it has a strong priority priority move too.

Rhyperior: Easier to use in OU. In UU there's grass and water pokes everywhere. Sincerely,, i think the Rock Polish set is better bone by Aggron. It's too slow to use Swords Dance. I believe that the Su(b)perior and the CB set are the best uses for the attacking Rhyperior. Tanking Rhyperior is good since it takes physical attacks like no one.It can use Counter to get rid of physical pokes too.

Alakazam: The Specs set is difficult to wall once you take out the Pursuit users or Chansey. If not, probably Alakazam will fail.
Alakazam leads are good.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Heysup, offensive Milotic does not force Arcanine out. It's 2hko'd by CB Flare Blitz and takes likes 80% from a Flash Fire boosted one. I think the problem is that anything that can check Arcanine really well dies horribly to Venasaur...with the exception of other Arcanine. So you have a situation where people are using defensive Arcanine to check offensive Arcanine, leading to the sharp rise in usage. Also, yes, CM Missy is certainly viable, especially with the seeming lack of Registeel now. Edit: Although Umbreon is a hard counter, so pack something to deal with it.

 

[Heysup]

Heysup, offensive Milotic does not force Arcanine out. It's 2hko'd by CB Flare Blitz and takes likes 80% from a Flash Fire boosted one. I think the problem is that anything that can check Arcanine really well dies horribly to Venasaur...with the exception of other Arcanine. So you have a situation where people are using defensive Arcanine to check offensive Arcanine, leading to the sharp rise in usage. Also, yes, CM Missy is certainly viable, especially with the seeming lack of Registeel now. Edit: Although Umbreon is a hard counter, so pack something to deal with it.

Exactly, that it would be why it forces Arcanine out. Milotic OHKOes Arcanine, and Arcanine doesn't OHKO Milotic. Milotic's Ice Beam also takes a huge chunk out of Venusaur. As do Azumarill and Feraligatr's Ice Punch.

 

[M BLADE]

Heysup, offensive Milotic does not force Arcanine out. It's 2hko'd by CB Flare Blitz and takes likes 80% from a Flash Fire boosted one. I think the problem is that anything that can check Arcanine really well dies horribly to Venasaur...with the exception of other Arcanine. So you have a situation where people are using defensive Arcanine to check offensive Arcanine, leading to the sharp rise in usage. Also, yes, CM Missy is certainly viable, especially with the seeming lack of Registeel now. Edit: Although Umbreon is a hard counter, so pack something to deal with it.

Well, there's Altaria who can counter both of them. And can switch out of Will-o-Wisps and Toxics from Arcanine. Since little to no Arcanine runs HP Ice or Dragon Pulse...
Venusaur can do anything to Altaria too. The best thing is Sludge Bomb, which Altaria can take really well.

 

[Vrolok]

Exactly, that it would be why it forces Arcanine out. Milotic OHKOes Arcanine, and Arcanine doesn't OHKO Milotic.

Milotic doesn't outspeed Arcanine, so if it comes in on a CB FlareBlitz I don't see how it's winning...

 

[Heysup]

It's simple; it doesn't come in a Flare Blitz.

Being able to force something out =/= countering, they are different terms.

Though I actually think Milotic does counter most Arcanine as Arcanine rarely uses a Choice Band, never mind max Speed. I'm actually pretty sure Arcanine runs 136 Spe with a Jolly nature to outpace base 80s, so technically Milotic could outspeed Arcanine. Either way, against the common Arcanine I would actually say Milotic does counter Arcanine. I just didn't really say that / consider it before.

 

[Boingo]

Support Camerupt from the Analysis counters any Arcanine (without Toxic) just fine.

 

[Rolf]

I've been using a defensive DD Feraligatr to come in on Arcanine lately, and it's done very, very well.

For Venusaur, Honchkrow is always an easy switch.

Toxicroak makes a great switch into any water type except Azumarills with Return.

I've also had lots of success with Scarf Sharpedo, who is able to outspeed most of the threatening pokes in todays metagame and KO with a great dual STAB and EQ, along with priority if needed.

 

[LoveHate]

Two Sets that I found to work relatively well;

Kangaskhan @ Life Orb
Jolly
Scrappy
82 Hp 252 Atk 176 Speed
Return
Fake Out
Sucker Punch
Earthquake

Outspeeds base =80s , Maximize attack and adds to already natural bulk

Kingler @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Adamant
Hyper Cutter
204 HP 252 Atk 54 Speed
Agility
Sword Dance / Substitute / Whatever Move you want
Waterfall / Crabhammer
Return

After agility out speeds swellow by a couple points, evs maximize attack while adding bulk to hp as Def is already solid

 

[d2m]

It's simple; it doesn't come in a Flare Blitz.

Then what the hell kinda move is Arcanine going to use if he's got a CB?

Extremespeed is the only other move he really needs to use and that's a rarity because he outspeeds a significant amount of the tier. Even that will dent Milotic and let him switch out anyway.

Unless you're bringing in Arcanine on a Honchkrow or other priority user with low health or a scarfer at low health, he's gonna use Flare Blitz.

 

[LonelyNess]

The problem I find with using DD Feraligatr / CB Azumarill / even Rhyperior as my Arcanine switch-ins is that it's REALLY annoying for them to be nailed with a burn, and WoW is becoming an increasingly popular 3rd move on Arcanine. It's easily just as viable as Hidden Power Grass / Toxic, and when these three Pokemon switch in to a Burn, it's pretty much gg for them the rest of the match, as they're going to be pretty much dead weight (except maybe Azumarill who still boasts 300+ Atk after the burn drop, which is "usable").

I'm easily finding Arcanine, most specifically the bulkier Legacy Raider versions (with Flare Blitz / Extreme Speed / Will-O-Wisp / Morning Sun), to be the most difficult / annoying Pokemon to take out in the tier... It's just so annoying and it seemingly never dies.

 

[Heysup]

That's the number one reason why I think Milotic is the best candidate for countering Arcanine. The major issue with Milotic though is the fact that it's hard finding the right EV balance between "fire-type counter" and "Hard-hitter". I think sacrificing some Speed (maybe outspeeding Honchkrow would even be enough) for bulk would be very beneficial when dealing with Pokemon like Arcanine.

It should be noted, however, that max Speed Timid Milotic outspeeds the "standard" Jolly 136 Spe Arcanine by 1 point. The issue with that is that arcanine can easily run a little bit more Speed.

I've been thinking about running a Sleep Talk Aggron, Rhyperior, or Azumarill to deal with Arcanine too, but I don't think Arcanine is that annoying that I want to overspecialize for it.

Arcanine is like Crobat, but it isn't Crobat. Crobat is much more broken than Arcanine will ever be with it's weakness to Stealth Rock (as long as Spikes are easy to set up anyway).

EDIT: I'm also looking at Pokemon such as Torkoal who could easily be an Arcanine counter as long as it doesn't run HP water (which I think is up there for the best 4th move slot, nearly OHKOing Rhyperior, hitting Moltres and other Arcanine (fire-types in general)). The issue here is that it then becomes a "Raikou-like" issue, where there are paper counters for specific movesets.

 

[FlareBlitz]

So I was testing out a Substitute oriented Magmortar set today, and I was extremely surprised at how effective it was. It massively screws with the Grass/Fire/Water core that's so common these days, ohkoing venasaur, 2hkoing Milotic (with an expert belt boost) and 2hkoing Arcanine with an SE hidden power (water is preferred, although Ground is fine if you're paranoid about Lanturn). So if you find yourself having trouble with that sort of core, or if you want something to lure in and kill bulky waters, use Magmortar.

 

[Mike Legend]

I can also vouch for Magmortar's usefulness in the current metagame. I've been using it as an antilead and , Venusaur, Milo, and Arcanine are all 2HKOd at least. Arcanine via Hidden Power. Not to mention his fanatastic base 93 speed. Allowing it to outspeed most of the tier. I can't believe it doesn't see more usage.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

For people who are having big problems with Arcanine or any other Fire Pokemon right now, I would recommend trying out a balanced custom Miltank set I made a few months back. I can't guarantee you'll like it or that it will fit your style, but it has worked really well for me many times before:

Miltank @ Leftovers
Jolly
Thick Fat
212 HP / 76 Atk / 220 Spe

~ Double Edge
~ Rock Slide / Heal Bell
~ Toxic / Heal Bell
~ Milk Drink

Works great against most Fire types to the point that they become almost a non-issue for the rest of the team. It can also stall out a number of bulky Pokemon lacking Rest easily, and STAB Double Edge really hurts most frail Pokemon that don't resist.

 

[reachzero]

Deadline for paragraphs is the 22nd.

I'm reminding everyone of this because we're now three days away from the deadline, yet we've only received two essays. If you want to be able to vote on the Suspects, now would be a good time to hurry up on your writing!

 

[M BLADE]

So I was testing out a Substitute oriented Magmortar set today, and I was extremely surprised at how effective it was. It massively screws with the Grass/Fire/Water core that's so common these days, ohkoing venasaur, 2hkoing Milotic (with an expert belt boost) and 2hkoing Arcanine with an SE hidden power (water is preferred, although Ground is fine if you're paranoid about Lanturn). So if you find yourself having trouble with that sort of core, or if you want something to lure in and kill bulky waters, use Magmortar.

Magmortar is really good and difficult to wall. But i prefer it with a LO all out attacker with HP Ice to hit Altaria(with Stealth Rock, even Milotic can't take a LO Fire Blast followed by Thunderbolt).
But, with a sub oriented poke, i like Houndoom myself. Sub, then attack or NP if you want. It has more opportunities to switch in(and grab the Flash Fire boost), and Dark Pulse has good coverage with Fire Blast, with only Blaziken/Poliwrath/Hariyama/Sharpedo and Crawdaunt resisting both.

 

[Erazor]

I'm reminding everyone of this because we're now three days away from the deadline, yet we've only received two essays. If you want to be able to vote on the Suspects, now would be a good time to hurry up on your writing!

Still working on mine, will send it in by Sunday max.

 

[A.P.]

Meh, I don't think I'll vote.

Since I haven't used Raikou or Froslass, and barely used Gallade, by what everyone else says, I don't think I'll have required SEXP for them just by playing against them.

And as for Honchkrow, my vote isn't going to count for shit, seeing as how everyone else hates it.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Oh shiz! Gotta get 'em done! I want them bitches gone! I PMed Jabba to get the details on how to write the paragraphs, but I got no response. REach, wanna help? lol Ap, vote! Every vote counts and you've played enough to meet the requirements, just do it!!

 

[LoveHate]

Yea I am not voting for the same reasons as AP

 

[M BLADE]

Does anyone tried to use Sticky Barb on Clefable?
If i remember, Sticky Barb does 12% on the holder... Magic Guard bocks that right?
And if a contact move hits the holder of Sticky Barb the one who attacked loses 12%.
If someone Tricks Clefable, it will get Sticky Barb, who means 12,5% of it's health every turn.
I'm lazy to see if it works.



Once i used a LO Pelliper as a lead just for lolz, just to find out it's not half bad. It can survive Fake Out+Return from Ambipom, can do some damage to Uxie and wins against Moltres/Arcanine leads. It also does decent damage to Registeel(only thing Registeel can do is Explode on Pelipper... unless it has Thunderpunch).
It's not the greatest lead in the world, but it surprised me by being somewhat good.

 

[Yuggles]

Does anyone tried to use Sticky Barb on Clefable?
If i remember, Sticky Barb does 12% on the holder... Magic Guard bocks that right?
And if a contact move hits the holder of Sticky Barb the one who attacked loses 12%.
If someone Tricks Clefable, it will get Sticky Barb, who means 12,5% of it's health every turn.
I'm lazy to see if it works.



Once i used a LO Pelliper as a lead just for lolz, just to find out it's not half bad. It can survive Fake Out+Return from Ambipom, can do some damage to Uxie and wins against Moltres/Arcanine leads. It also does decent damage to Registeel(only thing Registeel can do is Explode on Pelipper... unless it has Thunderpunch).
It's not the greatest lead in the world, but it surprised me by being somewhat good.

It doesn't say anything about Sticky Barb on Magic Guard's page. So it either goes under 'recoil damage' or still does damage to Clefable. I'm leaning towards the former.

 

[Sheshi]

I imagine it would go under item damage (with Life Orb which doesn't do any damage to Clefable either)

 

[whistle]

@ M BLADE

mantine outclasses pelipper due to much higher spdef and water absorb.
losing roost sounds "meh" on paper but pelipper really barely gets any opportunities to roost anyways, and it has no good 4th option -- replacing those with rest and sleep talk actually lets mantine stay alive for quite a while since it has massive special bulk.