jamashawalker said:
lol actually after playing with frosslass and playing against Uxie leads I have NEVER taunted on the first turn and when i use my Uxie lead many oppenents never taunt on the first turn they immediately set up spikes. And this already tells me whether the opponent is an experienced player with frosslass or if they are just adding a frosslass on a random team. For what reason, Trick Uxie. And many ppl trick on the first turn with Uxie(in my opinion is a bad idea, but let them do them) If i get tricked on taunt, then i'm really screwed over big time which gives my opponent the early lead on me...and whoever said double ghosting isn't an option for spin blocking...Most teams I have seen run frosslass+spiritomb combo..which has been working out really well for them as getting rid of spikes seemed like a huge hassel for them, but this is where hyper-offense teams really shine though by just hard pounding
EDIT: O and if your not careful with your pursuiter you can be Destiny Bonded leaving you 5 vs 5 at the start of the match and you with at least 2 layers of spikes on your side of the field
Well Froslass can't have Taunt, Destiny Bond, Pain Split, Spikes and Ice Beam at the same time. Also I think this deserves mention: Uxie and Ambipom are, together with Froslass, some of the most common leads in UU. If Froslass has to switch out of both Uxie and Ambipom that's hardly an argument for Froslass being BL.
Running two Ghosts is good for spin blocking of course but then you'd be changing your team quite a bit to achieve that spin blocking. It's like running two Dual Screeners. If you have two Dual Screeners then it's only fair you get screens up much more reliably right? If someone is so intent on keeping spikes / SR on the field and runs two ghosts to do it, he should be able to achieve his aim more reliably. Although of course Pursuit can still eliminate the ghosts ...
Finally I think it's only fair to say that Absol vs. Froslass is very uncomfortable for the Froslass user. Froslass can switch out, Taunt, Spikes or Ice Beam; against that Absol can Pursuit, Night Slash, Swords Dance or even Sucker Punch. In any case Absol wins and Froslass loses, and Absol will have chances to switch in (since Froslass is laying spikes), so yeah.
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Consider the following cases:
Case A: Froslass is in and laying spikes, other team switches in Hitmontop. Froslass can Taunt or switch out or even lay more spikes, although it's risky. Hitmontop can Stone Edge, Foresight, Rapid Spin, even Pursuit (although it's unconventional).
Froslass uses Taunt + Hitmontop uses Stone Edge -> too bad for Froslass.
Froslass uses Taunt + Hitmontop uses Foresight -> great for Froslass.
Froslass uses Taunt + Hitmontop uses Rapid Spin -> great for Froslass.
Froslass switches out + Hitmontop uses Stone Edge -> Hitmontop gets free hit.
Froslass switches out + Hitmontop uses Foresight -> Froslass escapes unscathed.
Froslass switches out + Hitmontop uses Rapid Spin -> too bad for Froslass.
Just counting the possible cases it's about 50/50 here.
Case B: Hitmontop is in and threatening to Rapid Spin. Froslass can switch in or stay out.
Froslass switches in + Hitmontop uses Rapid Spin -> good for Froslass.
Froslass switches in + Hitmontop uses Foresight -> too bad for Froslass.
Froslass switches in + Hitmontop uses Stone Edge -> too bad for Froslass.
Froslass stays out + Hitmontop uses Rapid Spin -> too bad for Froslass.
Froslass stays out + Hitmontop uses Foresight -> great for Froslass.
Froslass stays out + Hitmontop uses Stone Edge -> good for Hitmontop.
Hitmontop clearly has the advantage in this case (if Froslass switches into SR then it takes damage regardless of what Hitmontop does).
There's nothing really that unique about Hitmontop; Blastoise can do the same if we substitute Surf for Stone Edge. Donphan can't use Foresight, but Assurance hits Froslass for SE damage. Other spinners: Kabutops will thump Froslass with Stone Edge + Aqua Jet; Claydol has Shadow Claw.
So what is so BL-esque about Froslass? You can spin against her, or at least inflict major damage on her if she stays in to spin block. If you don't carry Rapid Spin then there's nothing special about Froslass - there are other Pokemon that can lay Spikes, and they will get chances to do so. Arguing that Froslass "centralizes the metagame around having Rapid Spin" is just unreasonable. It's not Froslass's fault that entry hazards are so effective and that there are so few Rapid Spinners around. If this is really problematic then someone should propose banning Stealth Rock / Spikes under the Support Clause.
Frankly all the arguments that Froslass is broken seem based on the other team having no counters to Froslass.
Some other arguments for Froslass being UU:
1. Froslass does not have reliable recovery (Pain Split isn't reliable), so her switch ins are liminted - especially if SR is on the field.
2. There are plenty of dangerous Pokemon that can set up on Froslass. Mismagius, Raikou and Alakazam, to name a few.
3. Froslass can be eliminated by Pursuit since she's weak to it and can't threaten most Pursuit users.
4. Froslass takes time to put up Spikes. This allows the other team to do some nasty things of their own, e.g. get Raikou behind a Sub, put up screens, put up SR. Two of the most common Pokemon cited as being overpowered with Spikes support, namely Swellow and Moltres, are both weak to SR (not to mention Froslass herself).
5. Destiny Bond is beaten by a priority move, and if Froslass switches out, by having entry hazards.
I think Rain is a lot (as in a
lot) more threatening than Froslass.