Froslass - Ice Queen

[Heysup]

<Heysup> yea, so I forgot to ask for permission to post the Froslass thread
<reachzero> yeah
<reachzero> but it seems to be okay
<reachzero> so it's fine
<Heysup> :)
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I figured, who else would make a Froslass thread?

I didn't want to c/p the actual "Posts" into this thread, as these posts were much longer than the other Pokemon who have threads. However, there are quite a few important posts to read in the UU thread, mainly between myself and Lemmiwinks with a few others involved (Lee, Zarator, etc).

EDIT: I'll just add them here with

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I really cannot understand all this hype about Froslass. Ok, it is a good lead, but I fail to see how it can be considered so much better than others. The main argument I see here is "It grants you one layer of Spikes". While I will not question that a well played Froslass actually has this capability, it has it both in UU and in OU, and I fail to see why it is ok (probably even subpar) in OU and oh-so-broken in UU.

Let's analyze first the "It grants you one layer of Spikes thing". Basically, unless I'm wrong (correct me if so), it means that, thanks to the high speed and Focus Sash, unless it gets Taunted by something faster, Froslass will put the Spikes down no matter what. More precisely, it means that, unless you lead with something like Ambipom, Alakazam, Persian or Electrode and Taunt right away, Froslass will lay those Spikes. Amazing. And isn't it true that, unless Azelf or Aerodactyl Taunt right away, Froslass is guaranteed to lay those Spikes in OU too? It may be true that, if Ambipom, Alakazam and the others Taunt and get attacked by Ice Beam/Shadow Ball, they could find themselves in deep trouble. But doesn't hold the same for Azelf (Shadow Ball) and Aerodactyl (Ice Beam)? The only lead in OU which actually shuts down Froslass and is absent in UU I can think of is Scarf Jirachi and it's Iron Head's 60% flinch chance.

Now, it is true that Froslass fares in UU far better than it could in OU, but the reason it is called broken is total bullshit, really. Froslass can grant a layer of Spikes in UU as well as it can in OU, and much like Aerodactyl can grant a layer of Stealth Rock no matter what. Moreover, every decent Spiker can find their way to lay those Spikes without much trouble, both in OU and in UU. The only good thing about Froslass is the ability to lay them early in the game and block Rapid Spin with its Ghost type. But it is not enough at all to declare it BL. Not certainly on par with Gallade, Alakazam and especially Raikou.

If there is a lead which centralizes UU, I think it is Alakazam. It can grant both Screens thanks to Inner Focus preventing flinch from Fake Out, and it will against almost everything bar Spiritomb (there may be other answers, but as of now I cannot think of any viable against something else besides Alakazam). And with a metagame which offers fierce setup sweepers like Gallade and Raikou, it is an ability as threatening as (if not more than) Spikes support, especially right at the start of the match.

You obviously haven't used Froslass, or played against a good user. Firstly, if it finds itself against one of those Taunters, it can simply switch out. Easy. Ambipom should always run Pursuit over Taunt for that reason.

Second, the leads in OU completely and utterly destroy Froslass. You have Pokemon like Infernape, Metagross, Jirachi, Mamoswine, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Azelph....in fact, no common leads actually lose to Froslass besides possibly Roserade (who can probably survive 2 Ice Beams with some investment).

In UU, Froslass beats (beat meaning, gets at least a layer of Spikes and Destiny Bond, or two layers of Spikes) almost EVERY common lead. If you look at the stats before Froslass was here, you can see that clearly Froslass forces every team that was using those leads to either use a Froslass of their own or use a stupid over-centralized lead that would fail in every other situation (yes I know "ambipom is gud", but not every team can fit it in / should have to use it). It actually effects the metagame, unlike in OU.



Obviously it can't. I just explained that above. In UU Froslass is the only "decent" Spiker, and barely anything can stop it because of its speed and Ghost-typing. The ability to Spike early game and block Rapid Spin for itself is being severely underestimated. Do you realize how absurdly good that is? Not to mention you are forgetting that it beats almost every Spinner. Donphan? KO it with Ice Beam, easy. Hitmontop? Taunt its Foresight, then lol as it has to switch out and the next Pokemon has to take 37.5% just for switching out. Spikes are way to easy to keep up in this metagame, there is no Forry with amazing defenses and typing able to set up SR and Rapid Spin, or Starmie who is lightning fast and hits like a mach truck.


Wtf is Alakazam doing in there? Alakazam is terribly weak compared to Gallade, Raikou, and Froslass. And even Rhyperior.




This just shows complete lack of understanding and experience in the UU metagame. Alakazam is good, but it isn't anywhere near common enough to "over-centralize" the metagame, or even come close to being broken / BL. It gets absolutely ripped apart by priority, or just any strong move. DS alakazam is especially weak to Pokemon like SD Gallade, who can just Swords Dance and OHKO it with Shadow Sneak through Reflect before it can Encore.

Alakazam will have a time to shine, just not yet.

What does Infernape do to stop Froslass? But the others can beat her obviously.



The stats before Froslass are completely irrelevant to any discussion on Froslass herself. Besides, "stupid" and "over-centralized" leads are simply not used. Nobody uses Scarf Iron Head Tauros / Arcanine / Entei / Rampardos or whatever similar build. The leads that can beat Froslass that are used are much more useful than you give them credit for.

And once again, affecting the metagame =/= broken.



Another irrelevant point, and I've mentioned this before so you really should know better than this. Spinners will NOT be switching into Froslass, it will be the other way round if anything.

Also, I am of the opinion that spinning is a lot easier in this metagame than you're claiming. And my opinion is equally valid.

The same holds true in OU. And before you go out of you way, I have played against both Froslass and good players using Froslass, so I know what I'm talking about.



They destroy it, yes, but Froslass is more than capable of grant that layer of Spikes against most of those leads. Or switch out of predicted Taunts just like you outlined above. I'm not saying Froslass is as good in UU as it is in OU, but you claim she is broken for things she can do almost equally well in OU.



Destiny Bond is neuterized by U-turn, first of all. Secondly, if you think things like Spiritomb are overcentralized, you are wrong. Spiritomb does a number also to Ambipom and Alakazam, which are 2 very common leads at the moment. So, these kind of leads are absolutely not useless against non-Froslass leads if built well. Ok, Froslass affects heavily their usage, but just imagine if we took out of OU Azelf and then put it back in (supposing people never played against Azelf in OU). It would affect things heavily, because it is a very good lead. Does this makes Azelf broken? Absolutely not.





First of all, Rotom-H beats every spinner in OU besides Starmie. And Froslass has nowhere the durability yielded by Rotom in OU. 70/70/70 isn't that great, especially when you do not invest in them with EVs. But most importantly, Froslass does not have the gazillon of resistance that Rotom appliances can boost. Immunity to Normal and Fighting and resistance to Ice, Bug and Poison is good and all, but weakness to Fire, Dark, Steel, Ghost and Rock is a bit more than Rotom's Ghost and Dark (without even thinking to all the resistances of Ghost/Electric WITH Levitate). The fact is, Froslass cannot afford to switch into anything besides the five types listed above, and even about the Rapid Spinners, it cannot afford to switch into Donphan's Earthquake, it cannot withstand Hitmontop's Tech Bullet Punch and so on.

Rotom is so good at blocking Rapid Spin because the only spinner it really has to worry about switching in is Starmie (Forretress' Payback is a risky move in itself seeing how many thing can switch into it for free). Froslass, on the contrary, rely a lot on prediction at it's Spin blocking job. It would be as if I used Gengar as my OU Spinblocker (ok, Gengar is a bit weaker defensively, but not so much).



First of all, do not put words into my mouth. I never said Alakazam is broken. I said, rather, that Alakazam is a better lead thatn Froslass, unless you absolutely need Spikes support that early in the game. Alakazam is raped by priority? Froslass is too. Ok, it is immune to Fighting (which Alakazam resists anyway), and it can play a bit with Sucker Punch (Alakazam can too with Substitute BTW), but that's it. The only real advantage Froslass may have is the resistance to Ice Shard, but it cannot even afford to switch into its two main users (Donphan and Cloyster), which incidentally also carry Rapid Spin. Also, unless you lead with Gallade, Alakazam can always Taunt your SD attempt behind the Reflect. And don't bitch about prediction, because everything you said so far about Froslass implies a good amount of prediction on the Froslass user side (especially about blocking Rapid Spin).

Alakazam is already shining a lot, and its usage will prove it undeniably. I would not be surprised if Froslass gets less usage than Alakazam.

U-turn ignores Destiny Bond unless I'm mistaken (possibility).




They are leads that severely hinder people's teams. I figured this out just recently; leads are in fact the reason that it is so hard to build a remotely consistent team in this metagame. And by consistent I don't mean "can win most matches on the latter against worse players", I mean "I can win most matches against above average players". It's basically 5 Pokemon versus 5 Pokemon to be honest. Lead Spiritomb is terribly frail for example, it won't do shit to something like Gallade if it comes in on any attack minus Close Combat or Psycho Cut. And Spiritomb is supposed to counter Gallade. I'll admit things like Cloyster are decent leads, but they are really hard to build a team around, especially when Cloyster will be taking like 50% when it switches in.

And you are correct, affecting the metagame =/= broken. However, in common battle conditions, Frolsass can give Pokemon the ability to sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little / no effort. I'm sure you agree, that makes Froslass broken.



Froslass can switch in on anything but Foresight from Hitmontop, and practically anything from Donphan (especially with the proslass/bulky EVs).

Once Froslass is in, then it what I just applies. My argument isn't "irrelevent" just because you say so.



It would be if you backed your opinion up with facts, and didn't just say "my opinion is valid". For example, I said Spinning is harder because:

1) Froslass, a Spiker, blocks spin for itself.
a) Froslass can OHKO Donphan with Ice Beam, or survive multiple Earthquakes with the right EVs.
b) Froslass can Taunt Hitmontop's Foresight.
c) Cloyster takes 50% when it comes in with Spikes and SR up, making it hard to spin at all.

2) So many viable Ghosts. With Spiritomb's Gallade checking ability, Mismagius' awesome sweeping capabilities and immunities, and Rotom's decent defenses, awesome typing, and sweeping capabilities, it isn't hard to even fit two ghosts onto your team.

3) The offensive nature of Pokemon in this metagame. Try spinning when Pokemon are sending 120 BP STAB attacks at you off of 383 Atk (Honchkrow and Gallade, for example).

Where is your reasoning?



Yea, but in OU people don't have to mess with their team in order to get a good lead. Trust me, switching into an Alakazam, Electrode, or Persian is much much much easier than switching into Azelf or Aerodactyl. I'm not even including the other leads that "beat" Froslass, such as Metagross, Mamoswine, and Tyranitar. Have fun switching into those.


The huge flaw in your arguments is that you are missing what Froslass can actually do. Froslass can set up a layer AND KO the opponent against 95% of commonly used Pokemon in UU. The fact that it can only set up one Layer at best in OU makes it substantially worse than in UU.

No wonder you don't see it as broken when you only think of it as an "automatic 1 layer of spikes", when it can do so much more.


Spiritomb doesn't do shit against most leads, obviously minus defensively weak Froslass, Ambipom, and Alakazam. Froslass can be EV'd to be 5HKOed by Spiritomb actually as well.

Not to mention Spiritomb is so so shitty with Atk EVs needed to 2HKO min/min Froslass, it gets totally fucked by every threat it is supposed to counter.




Firstly, it can easily switch into Donphan's EQ with the right EVs (252 hp / 224 defense):

372 Atk vs 232 Def & 344 HP (100 Base Power): 172 - 204 (50.00% - 59.30%)

And it can even switch in without proper EVs (min/min), because stealth rock won't be up if Donphan is just coming out to attack:

372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 228 - 268 (81.14% - 95.37%)

While Froslass can just OHKO it:

259 Atk vs 156 Def & 368 HP (95 Base Power): 338 - 402 (91.85% - 109.24%)

Also, you are forgetting a major factor in OU.

One word: Pursuit. UU has nowhere near as effective Pursuiters as OU. Yes, Honchkrow is good, but it is OHKOed by Ice Beam because its so slow, where as Scizor and Tyranitar make up for their speed with insane bulk.

Froslass is not a main spin blocker, the point is you can't spin when Froslass is in play. Froslass + another Ghost is nearly impossible to spin against.

Rotom is so good at blocking Rapid Spin because the only spinner it really has to worry about switching in is Starmie (Forretress' Payback is a risky move in itself seeing how many thing can switch into it for free). Froslass, on the contrary, rely a lot on prediction at it's Spin blocking job. It would be as if I used Gengar as my OU Spinblocker (ok, Gengar is a bit weaker defensively, but not so much).

I don't feel the need to address your final paragraph as its filled with clearly flawed arguments.

372 Atk Ice Shard deals 31 - 36 to a min Def Froslass so even assuming you roll minimum damage twice, Froslass would still lose 228 + 31 = 259/282 HP by switching into Donphan. Average damage both times is enough to OHKO 4/0 Froslass (barely).

Your defensive variant can be 2HKO'd and can't OHKO Donphan in return - it should be obvious to a savvy opponent that a Froslass who takes Earthquake so well isn't going to have sufficient SpA investment to take him down in one hit without D-Bond. So really, neither sets can switch into Donphans Earthquake and expect to come out smelling of roses. And that's without me even questioning the cringeworthy justification for Stealth Rocks absence with 'because stealth rock won't be up if Donphan is just coming out to attack.'



Ignoring your obviously arbitrary 95% figure it should be noted Azelf in OU brings a similar promise with Spikes/Destiny Bond exchanged for the generally superior Stealth Rock/Explosion. Of course, things rarely work out that well for Azelf because it's the most common lead and people make sure they're prepared for it - why can't they do the same for Froslass?

Just to clarify, I have no opinion on Froslass just yet as I've only been playing UU for a few days now but your arguments are doing little to sway me because you're creating ideal situations for Froslass in each point you make.

- Of course Froslass is going to get Spikes down if your lead loses horribly to her.

- Sure she can function as an emergency spin blocker if you outpredict your opponents every move and only come in on Rapid Spins and Taunt every Foresight.

- I don't doubt that she does beat Hitmontop if Hitmontop doesn't use Bullet Punch (40.9%), Stone Edge (18.8%) or Pursuit (14.3%).

- And yeah, Froslass can just about come in on Donphans Earthquake if you use Max HP and almost Max Def AND make sure Stealth Rock isn't on the field.

But all of these scenarios can and often will have a very different outcome on the battlefield as I'm sure you're well aware and for that reason they come across very awkwardly as justification for the banishment of a Pokemon.

They are leads that don't severely hinder people's teams.

Look, I just made a statement that is completely contradictory to yours, how could this be? Because both of them are simply two different opinions based on our own experiences. You're not going to get anywhere trying to convince me (and others of a similar stance) if what you deem is a fact supporting your argument is in fact nothing more than an opinion I completely disagree with.

And Spiritomb can very easily run a setup that 2HKOs standard lead Froslass as well as comfortably survive a +2 LO Stone Edge from Gallade, his strongest option. That's all that matters, and is better in fact because then 'Tomb can hit back harder with Shadow Sneak. Besides, Spiritomb cannot reliably counter Gallade anyway, so your point is moot.



Froslass cannot give Pokemon the ability to easily sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little / no effort.

Once again, the mystery of two 'supposed' facts that completely contradict each other.



If I agreed with your mentality here, then I wouldn't feel the need to address your points either. Confused? Well let me help you out:



If Froslass is the one putting the Spikes down to begin with, what the hell makes it a given that she is in tip-top shape after doing so? In my experience, Froslass never gets Spikes up for free, and in fact is often left at 1 HP after one layer. The assumption that Froslass can easily get Spikes up while taking little to no damage is flawed and way too convenient. it simply doesn't happen very often in practice.



I didn't just "say so", I gave my reasoning as to why. Your argument doesn't become any more relevant the more you keep repeatedly spouting it while putting your fingers in your ears.



Backing up an opinion with facts? That doesn't make any sense. An opinion is an opinion because it is subjective; all the reasoning in the world won't turn it into a fact.

Cloyster takes 50% upon coming in? That's assuming SR and all three layers of Spikes are down, which is clearly so easy to do. It is a pointless statement because it already assumes far more than what you're trying to justify.

I already know what the Ghosts in UU can do thank you very much, and I also know that they're far from indestructible.

And again, if Froslass is broken because it makes offense too easy, somebody better go and demonstrate it, because I have seen nothing of the sort so far.



Again, not a fact, merely your opinion. And a dubious one at that.



So Froslass is running 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, and 224 Defense? That's 218 EVs more than the maximum allocation, and you haven't even touched the Speed yet, one of Froslass' most prized assets. I have bolded a key word here so that you can't get out of it by saying "I meant two separate spreads". You can't assume two separate sets in one argument, it is too convenient. And that is enough reason why this is yet another flawed argument. Don't even get me started on the idea that Donphan has to be the team's SR user just because it can learn it.

Now don't get me wrong, Froslass is definitely a Pokemon that is hanging near the edge of BL. However, your arguments are so pathetic and poorly thought out right now that you must be deluded if you think that they are going to convince me that Froslass actually does make it over the edge. And remember, the burden of proof is always on the anti-Froslass side (i.e. people like you), not the neutral or pro-Froslass side. If you're going to continue with the same shitty arguments over and over again and keep pretending that they are good, then there really is no reason to keep responding to you as it would be a complete and utter waste of time.

Donphan doesn't always run Ice Shard, but if you're going to be technical here I might as well just say that it won't even matter if it has Ice Shard as Earthquake will only do (73.67% - 86.83%) maximum damage with an Impish nature, which is Donphan's most used nature. Not to mention, only 43% of Donphan run Max Attack. I think it would only be fair to give Froslass the win there.


Again, being technical most Donphan can't even 2HKO this Froslass because of the lack of max attack + nature. But anyway Froslass can OHKO Donphan with spike damage. Before you say "don't assume Spikes are on the field", answer this question "if there were no Spikes on the field, what is Donphan trying to spin? And with Froslass out Spikes will definitely be on the field if you haven't managed to spin them away (which I'm arguing is harder to do that most people think).


Spikes are actually quite superior to Stealth Rock on a lead in UU, because honestly every other defensive Pokemon can learn Stealth Rock. Explosion and Destiny Bond are also debatable, because while Explosion would help a ton, Destiny Bond helps Froslass force the opponent out and gets more spikes up.

It is also an option to just not use Destiny Bond and use Rest, Pain Split, Protect, Light Screen, etc.


Just because they are ideal, does not mean they aren't common. In fact that's my point, these situations are quite common, and Froslass has very little to lose.


We're sort of passed this, but the main argument I'm making is "why should you be forced to use leads X, Y, and Z, which do very little for your team just because you don't want to lose the match right away from 3 layers of Spikes and any sort of offense / stall."


You don't need to outpredict every move. You can always switch into Donphan, and you can almost always switch into Rapid Spin. Hitmontop can't do anything besides Foresight versus Froslass, otherwise I wouldn't be making this argument.


It doesn't. It would be seriously stupid for Hitmontop to run any of those attacks (minus Pursuit) on the Rapid Spin set. Because if you do, you should really be using Donphan. Those stats are from the "Technitop set". As ridiculous as this may sound, those stats are really irrelevant to this argument, because they don't exist on the set (standard Rapid Spin set is Foresight / Rapid Spin / Close Combat / [Rest / Sucker Punch], btw).


How would Stealth Rock be on the field if Donphan hasn't come out yet? Even the standard Froslass can come in on Donphan's EQ safely over half the time because most Donphan are Impish or don't invest in max Attack.



If that was the case I would have no argument. But unfortunately for Froslass it really is the case. These scenarios are quite common, and I've been really abusing it lately and I can't see how it's even fair to the opponent if he doesn't get some serious hax to even the match up.

Didn't see this before.



Lemmiwinks please stop ignoring my reasoning and then telling me I'm not supporting my arguments, especially when you are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of.

So once again, I posted reasoning for this. Here is a summary:

1) Spiritomb. Spiritomb being forced to run at least 176 Atk EVs with an Adamant nature to KO Froslass makes it a very very shitty Pokemon outside of leading. It is now always OHKOed by Gallades +2 Stone Edge. You know the calcs I'm sure. It also gives Pokemon like Arcanine, Blaziken, and <insert fire type> free attacks early in the game, which is always bad since they are so hard to switch into, regardless of how good your team is, not much can take attacks from Blaziken, as we all know.

Spiritomb has been my prime example for a while, but I've been noticing some others lately.

2) Kabutops. While Kabutops is an effective lead, it must cut down its effectiveness overall by being in the lead position. Instead of taking advantage of nice bulk and offensive stats, it needs to slap a Focus Sash on itself incase Froslass has Thunderbolt, or it's against a lead that isn't Froslass. Kabutops outside of a lead position is an extremely effective Spinner. It is one of the only spinners that can OHKO Froslass reliably on the switch.

3) Cloyster. While not as much as the other two, Cloyster's reasoning is the same as Kabutops, just toned down a notch since it is still a great lead. The point is that it isn't as effective as it could be not being forced to be in a lead position.

Those are some examples of Pokemon that hinder the team and overall effectiveness because of the fact that they are forced to lead because of Froslass.

And, again, "where is your reasoning"?



Really? Spiritomb needs 289 Atk (172 Atk EVs and an Adamant nature) to always 2HKO Froslass with Shadow Sneak/Pursuit.

This means that in order to get maximum physical defensiveness, it will need to use a spread of 252 HP / 172 Atk / 84 Def (it does better against Stone Edge than 84 HP / 252 Def). With this spread, it gets 304 HP and 273 defense. Now lets see how that fares against a +2 Life Orb Stone Edge from Gallade:

766 Atk vs 273 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 261 - 308 (85.86% - 101.32%)

That's an 87% OHKO with Stealth Rock, guaranteed with 1 Layer of Spikes + SR.

Am I missing something?



We can get into this discussion after we get pass the fact that Froslass can easily set up spikes, and that it's easy to keep them there. Otherwise, what's the point of looking at how easy spikes are broken?



Good point, but I was referring to what happens if you don't over-centralize and happen to lose a match up against Froslass. I should have clarified that, you're right. Even in the situation with 1 HP left, it still stalls out spinning for 1 turn at the very least. That's why I like the defensive variant.



You didn't give any valid reasoning as to why spinning is easier than I'm saying at all. I don't even think you posted any invalid reasoning....you could at least start with that.


Why can't you back up your opinion with facts? If I say "I think froslass is BL because of facts X, Y, and Z", that would be me backing up my opinion with facts. What you are doing is "I don't think Froslass is BL, and since it is an opinion I don't need to back it up and your arguments and facts are irrelevant".


Alright ok, Cloyster comes in with 75% HP after Stealth Rock, and at a whopping 158 Speed. It is hard to spin with Cloyster, even for just Stealth Rock. Add Spikes into the mix...good luck. Trust me, I tried Cloyster out for a while, and it just took too much damage.

They aren't indestructible, it is just hard to actually KO them before getting completely worn out by residual damage. And where is your reasoning? Show me how it is easy to KO a Ghost type or two before getting dominated by residual damage.



I didn't actually say "offense" is too easy. I said it was possible to simply not "allow" your opponent time to spin. It's quite a hard concept to understand for a top battler I know.


"I meant two seperate spreads." It's as clear as glass that I was referring to the second spread with the calcs for Ice Beam because the defensive EV'd Froslass doesn't need to OHKO Donphan since Donphan doesn't 2HKO it most of the time (especially considering Froslass can Pain Split + KO with Ice Beam, always surviving Earthquake a second time after Pain Split, and even more so since Donphan is usually Impish).



I don't want to get into this "pissing match" that we get into so often over Pokemon like Froslass, but I think you need to reconsider your approach to this argument. How is it fair in an argument when I say "froslass is broken because it does X (explanation of X), Y (explanation of Y) and Z (explanation of Z)" and you just say "No, irrelevant. Convince me better."? That isn't how it works, even if you say so. You need to disprove my reasoning, regardless of what side your on. Hopefully we can get passed this and have an actual fruitful discussion.

Essentially if you want to be successful in this metagame you are going to have to use some...not "as" good Pokemon as you might want to, which is what I've been blabbing about for a while.

Try out Pokemon like Cloyster and Kabuto. They deal with Froslass and still function well outside of leading, well, at least more so than other Pokemon.

EDIT: Lol I forgot Ambipom....fail.

Spiritomb and Ambipom are the best leads for Froslass, as is Cloyster. However, due to a glitch, I believe that Cloyster is beaten by Fake out + low Kick from Ambipom.

I think one thing has been overlooked in the Froslass debate - to all of you saying that "X lead beats it"(whether or not X is overspecialized), you have to remember that Froslass can just take you down with her. Sure, you might not get more than 1 layer of spikes, but still, going 5-5 with Spikes on your side is good.

On another note...I really, really, hate my net. I'm having a really tough time qualifying this time around, simply because I "lose" to random n00bs on the ladder.

I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion that any heated discussion that we do have is always going to end up fruitless. We are simply arguing from two separate intellectual standpoints, and when that happens nothing will ever come from it. I have explained time and time again why dozens of your arguments have little relevance to the main issue, yet you keep coming back and defending your indefensible statements, topping it off with a bit of twisted rhetoric to make it look like I am the one being ridiculous. I'm sorry, but I can't be doing with that, and it seems that no matter what I say, you will never change this mentality of yours, so why should I bother? You also don't seem to get that, being the accuser, the burden of proof is on you, not me. It is unreasonable to expect me to have to provide equal and opposite counter-arguments to every one of yours, when simply refuting or explaining the flaws in your arguments suffices. Innocent until proven guilty, so similarly, if it can't be proven that Froslass is BL material, it is UU.

I think we can both agree that this argument between us isn't going to go anywhere, ever, and therefore it is sensible to just recognize that and stop now. For the sake of our sanity if anything lol.

Here are the two most common and viable sets from my experience:

Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP/228 Def/32 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Pain Split
---

Is 4-5HKOed by Spiritomb depending on Damage rolls. It beats Donphan reliably, switching in on Earthquake and being able to simply Pain Split enough HP to survive another Earthquake and putting Donphan in KO range. It's damn bulky....survives a Honchkrow Night Slash!


Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Destiny Bond
---

"Guaranteed Spikes". What isn't there to like about this set. You almost always get 1 Layer of spikes and a KO, which is fantastic.

As a community, lets discuss this in the correct order:

a) Are Spikes too easy to set up?

b) Are Spikes too easy to keep on the field?

c) If the answer to the above questions are both "Yes", or at least "pretty close", then we can ask: Are easy Spikes broken? That is, does it support Pokemon to the extent that they can sweep with little effort? If yes, which Pokemon?

Discuss!

 

[panamaxis]

Are spikes too easy to set up?

Hmm, yes and no. What I find is that you don't just lead with froslass for spikes, but to keep other hazards off the field. To get 'easy spikes' you need to predict well imo.

Are spikes too easy to keep on the field?

Well I started playing with a hyper offense-ish team and I don't really give them time to set up hazards or get rid of mine, but I guess it really depends on your team. In my experience, yeah, it's not too hard, but then again you can run anti-ghost stuff which I don't see that often.

Are spikes broken?
Nah, good but not broken. Froslass is good, but not broken in my eyes anyway. P.S. why don't people run shadow ball on the lead so you can do better vs other froslasses? Most of the time your spiking taunt or dbonding anyway...

Anyway as a point of interest I've found most players go for the extra layer rather then play the dbond guessing game.

Although tbh, I haven't tried "prolass" yet so I'll be sure to give that a go and see how it fares.

 

[MagicMaster87]

a) Are Spikes too easy to set up?

This one is a tough one to answer, although the question is a bit misleading since the subject at hand is Froslass, not Spikes. Yes, they're easy to set up, but so is Stealth Rocks, and Dual Screens, and other such supportive moves. If the question is more asking if Froslass makes setting them up too easy in comparison to these other moves or in comparison to other Spikers, I would say no. From my experience, non-bulky Froslass (the only one I've seen so far and the one I use) is lucky to get up more than one or two layers before kicking the bucket. However, any lead Spiker can get up at least one layer guaranteed when carrying a Focus Sash, so this in and of itself isn't really anything special. I don't have much experience with bulky Froslass, but the drop in Speed does mean more things can get a hit on her than before, so even though she can take more hits, she still has to be careful about what she switches into if she doesn't want her Spiking career cut short. Other Spikers such as Omastar and Roserade (when it was UU) have MUCH more natural bulk on either side, so they can afford to switch in on attacks that even bulky Froslass can't, allowing more setup opportunities.

b) Are Spikes too easy to keep on the field?

Again, this is sort of a trick question (not that you intended it that way), since Spikes are just as easy to keep on the field as Stealth Rocks. Froslass, however, does make things somewhat easier since she can spinblock as well as setup, which no other Spiker in any tier can boast. This means you don't have to commit another team slot or two to spin blocking if you don't want to. An added bonus is that Froslass can hit two of the most common spinners, Claydol and Donphan, for SE damage with STAB Ice Beam, and is immune to Hitmontop's STAB (often his only attacking move on Rapid Spin sets IIRC). Blastoise can put the pressure on Froslass with STAB Surf, but the next item Froslass has over other Spikers, Destiny Bond, can remove Blastoise from the equation if it isn't careful and thus prevent it from spinning anyway. However, Froslass's frailty comes into play here again, even if using the bulky set. Since it's extremely unlikely that Froslass will be able to set up Spikes completely unscathed, it's likely that if the opponent predicts the switch-in, even a light hit could stop her from blocking anything.

c) Are easy Spikes broken?

Again, if by easy Spikes you mean the ability to set up at least one layer guaranteed, then no, because as said before, every Spiker can set up at least one layer guaranteed. If this was truly broken, it would have been abused even during Froslass's absence from UU. Does Froslass's other abilities to set up and retain Spikes make her broken? I'm inclined to say no; she's very useful, but her general frailty and rather average SAtk means it's not that hard to take her out before she can do much.

 

[Sock Monster]

The difference of Froslass to the other Spikers in UU is it's incredible speed, being able to outspeed and revenge kill Mismagius. It also has a fast Taunt so it makes a much different alternative(i'm not going to say better) lead than the other spiker leads which are all slow and moderately bulky. Also, Froslass has access to tricky moves like Trick and Destiny Bond, coupled with it's great speed, resistances and average defences. This, therefore does not limit it's duty to just setting up entry hazards themselves unlike other leads (Omastar) although truth to be told, Froslass seems to be always played just to put 1 layer of Spikes and die...


However, Froslass does have its faults. Its "average" Defences and HP does not allow it to stay around for long. Also it has a weakness to Stealth Rock which banishes it to "nearly" always being a lead.

I am divided on whether Froslass is too overpowered as i see it as just another alternative Spiker lead in the current Metagame. Maybe if it just filled some other niche's in a more convincing way then i'd be fully swayed that it deserves a fully BL vote.

 

[d2m]

A) No. There are several viable leads faster than Froslass, there are quite a few Taunters or scarf leads that limit it to 1 layer if that. The defensive set is interesting, but you lose so much speed that if the opposing lead is packing Taunt, you'll get 0 instead of 1.

B) Again no. Froslass is a suicide lead no matter which set you're running. Try switching even that defensive set into anything it's not immune to + SR. Spinners are commonplace, it's not that hard to Spin with the #1 Spin Blocker (Spiritomb) being forced to check so many things that it gets worn down very fast by quick offense.

C) No. In theory, if they got down and stayed down and there were at least 2 layers, it could allow things like Honchkrow, Raikou, NP Missy, Houndoom, and hell, even Low Kick Ambipom to sweep, but the fact remains they aren't. 1 Layer of spikes for a few turns of the round (till they're spun away) isn't broken in the least.

Forgive the lack of elaboration, but I explained this in detail in several posts already (you accidently linked the same one about 10 times so I don't know if you were trying to link one of mine) and this would be the 3rd or 4th time I've made this argument.


Conclusion: Spikes aren't too easy to get down thanks to faster taunts, but even if they do get down are easily spun away, and any team that doesn't have a spinner or lead that can handle Froslass and/or a powerful sweeper like the ones listed really deserves what's coming to them.

 

[Heysup]

While I wanted to respect everyone's arguments and opinions, the reasoning for these arguments is really invalid, let me explain why:

A) No. There are several viable leads faster than Froslass, there are quite a few Taunters or scarf leads that limit it to 1 layer if that. The defensive set is interesting, but you lose so much speed that if the opposing lead is packing Taunt, you'll get 0 instead of 1.

What leads are faster than Froslass that can Taunt? Ambipom? Alakazam? What else? Froslass can just switch out versus Taunt, it isn't a good way to counter Froslass, Pursuit is arguably the best way. The defensive set isn't OHKOed by pretty well any unboosted neutral attack. You really underestimate it, look at the calcs provided in the UU thread. I have a hard time believing you've even used Froslass.

B) Again no. Froslass is a suicide lead no matter which set you're running. Try switching even that defensive set into anything it's not immune to + SR. Spinners are commonplace, it's not that hard to Spin with the #1 Spin Blocker (Spiritomb) being forced to check so many things that it gets worn down very fast by quick offense.

You are again misinformed, Froslass is not ALWAYS a suicide lead, in fact the most effective Froslass strategy is to not sacrifice itself until it has to. And again, you underestimate the defensive set, which can switch into a Donphan Earthquake AND beat it. (Do the calcs, factor in Pain Split first turn, and Ice beam Second turn, I'm in class so I can't do them at the moment).

C) No. In theory, if they got down and stayed down and there were at least 2 layers, it could allow things like Honchkrow, Raikou, NP Missy, Houndoom, and hell, even Low Kick Ambipom to sweep, but the fact remains they aren't. 1 Layer of spikes for a few turns of the round (till they're spun away) isn't broken in the least.

Please answer the actual question instead of saying "it doesn't matter". Are multiple layers of Spikes broken, regardless of how they got up? Judging by the fact that you list so many Pokemon that can easily sweep, I'm assuming you do think they are broken.

Forgive the lack of elaboration, but I explained this in detail in several posts already (you accidently linked the same one about 10 times so I don't know if you were trying to link one of mine) and this would be the 3rd or 4th time I've made this argument.

Yea I messed that up, I thought I could just c/p it and change the post # but apparently it's not that simple. I'll grab some more later.

 

[d2m]

While I wanted to respect everyone's arguments and opinions, the reasoning for these arguments is really invalid, let me explain why:



What leads are faster than Froslass that can Taunt? Ambipom? Alakazam? What else? Froslass can just switch out versus Taunt, it isn't a good way to counter Froslass, Pursuit is arguably the best way. The defensive set isn't OHKOed by pretty well any unboosted neutral attack. You really underestimate it, look at the calcs provided in the UU thread. I have a hard time believing you've even used Froslass.

You are again misinformed, Froslass is not ALWAYS a suicide lead, in fact the most effective Froslass strategy is to not sacrifice itself until it has to. And again, you underestimate the defensive set, which can switch into a Donphan Earthquake AND beat it. (Do the calcs, factor in Pain Split first turn, and Ice beam Second turn, I'm in class so I can't do them at the moment).


Please answer the actual question instead of saying "it doesn't matter". Are multiple layers of Spikes broken, regardless of how they got up? Judging by the fact that you list so many Pokemon that can easily sweep, I'm assuming you do think they are broken.


Yea I messed that up, I thought I could just c/p it and change the post # but apparently it's not that simple. I'll grab some more later.

Max attack Donphan EQ does ~50% (appx median) and Assurance does ~65% (median) + 25% from SR = even if it Pain Splits it'll die to the next attack, but it CAN OHKO with Ice Beam so Donphan should switch out.

That's not including Armaldo (who I started seeing with increasing frequency) who isn't 3HKO'd by Froslass, can 2HKO the defensive set with Rock Blast (assuming it hits 3 or more times both times) and can Rapid Spin if she switches.

3 Common faster taunts = Ambipom, Electrode, Alakazam. Ambipom also carries Technician boosted Pursuit that can still 2HKO Froslass (assuming Max atk LO), then you consider Armaldo mentioned above, plus the myriad of leads that 2HKO it or set up along side it (for instance Omastar means either 1 layer of spikes on your side (Taunt + Spikes vs 2 HP Rocks) or 3 layers on your side + 2 layers of spikes and SR on his side, depending on prediction of course).

If multiple layers of spikes are up and a team has no way to deal with that, they played the team incorrectly or it is a badly formed team. Every team needs to either have a spinner, enough offense to power through spikes, hard counters to common sweepers that can still check through spikes, or a way to prevent spikes from ever happening (i.e. a lead mentioned above). My point is that, yes, Spikes allow some pokemon to sweep easily, however, if the circumstance arrives for them to utilize said chance to sweep, it was due to one or more misplays on the other player's part, not the inherent brokenness of spikes or Froslass.

 

[Heysup]

Max attack Donphan EQ does ~50% (appx median) and Assurance does ~65% (median) + 25% from SR = even if it Pain Splits it'll die to the next attack, but it CAN OHKO with Ice Beam so Donphan should switch out.

Assurance can't do more than Earthquake, it has less power until it hits the second time. Anyway, Froslass easily switches in and beats Donphan. That was my point.

3 Common faster taunts = Ambipom, Electrode, Alakazam. Ambipom also carries Technician boosted Pursuit that can still 2HKO Froslass (assuming Max atk LO), then you consider Armaldo mentioned above, plus the myriad of leads that 2HKO it or set up along side it (for instance Omastar means either 1 layer of spikes on your side (Taunt + Spikes vs 2 HP Rocks) or 3 layers on your side + 2 layers of spikes and SR on his side, depending on prediction of course).

Pursuit can't 2HKO in my experience, and why would you use Taunt AND Pursuit. Using both is pointless.

If multiple layers of spikes are up and a team has no way to deal with that, they played the team incorrectly or it is a badly formed team. Every team needs to either have a spinner, enough offense to power through spikes, hard counters to common sweepers that can still check through spikes, or a way to prevent spikes from ever happening (i.e. a lead mentioned above). My point is that, yes, Spikes allow some pokemon to sweep easily, however, if the circumstance arrives for them to utilize said chance to sweep, it was due to one or more misplays on the other player's part, not the inherent brokenness of spikes or Froslass.

Again, dancing around the question instead of giving a straight answer. The question isn't "is froslass broken?", it's "Are multiple layers of "easy" spikes broken regardless of whether you think they are easy or not?".

Since you really can't seem to answer the question, I'll assume you still think that "easy" Spikes would be broken.

 

[d2m]

Assurance can't do more than Earthquake, it has less power until it hits the second time. Anyway, Froslass easily switches in and beats Donphan. That was my point.



Pursuit can't 2HKO in my experience, and why would you use Taunt AND Pursuit. Using both is pointless.




Again, dancing around the question instead of giving a straight answer. The question isn't "is froslass broken?", it's "Are multiple layers of "easy" spikes broken regardless of whether you think they are easy or not?".

Since you really can't seem to answer the question, I'll assume you still think that "easy" Spikes would be broken.

1) Switching into SR. And all this is assuming no prior damage on Froslass despite the fact it got spikes up which is inconceivable.

2) Taunt beats Uxie leads as well, which Pursuit doesn't. I ran Fake Out/Return/Pursuit/Taunt on my old team, I'll admit I haven't used it since Froslass came about, though.

3) My point is that your question is both flawed and loaded. There's absolutely no possible way you can answer the question "no" but it's asking about an improbable (at best) situation. It's like saying "If you let a known thief into your house then left him alone, would he steal things?" YES, of course he would, because YOU LET HIM. In your situation, you're asking if a player LET his opponent get up 2 or more layers of spikes, then LET a powerful sweeper come in, would he lose? YES, OF COURSE HE WOULD. But it would be his damn fault for allowing the situation to occur. If we determined whether something was "broken" or not by looking at bad people play, the BL would be a mile long.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Assurance can't do more than Earthquake, it has less power until it hits the second time. Anyway, Froslass easily switches in and beats Donphan. That was my point.

You misunderstand how Assurance works. If the targeted Pokemon takes damage on the turn you use Assurance (whether from switching into Spikes/SR, a teammate's attack, possibly LO recoil, etc.), then Assurance has double base power. NOT if it has damage from previous turns. So if a previously-max-health Froslass switches into Donphan's Assurance while SR are on the field (meaning she takes 25% damage) then that Assurance would have double base power. However, if Frolass doesn't take any damage the next turn and Donphan uses Assurance, Assurance will only have 50 base power.

Again, dancing around the question instead of giving a straight answer. The question isn't "is froslass broken?", it's "Are multiple layers of "easy" spikes broken regardless of whether you think they are easy or not?".

But the discussion is supposed to be about whether Froslass is BL or not, not whether Spikes, "easy" or not, are broken. How would this be any different from the "Is Stealth Rocks broken?" debates that were going on not too long ago?

 

[Heysup]

1) Switching into SR. And all this is assuming no prior damage on Froslass despite the fact it got spikes up which is inconceivable.

I was under the impression that Assurance only mattered if they were hit by Assurance previously. In any event, Donphan is almost always the team's Stealth Rocker, meaning it likely won't be switching into Stealth Rock.

All it needs is over like 60% or whatever HP it needs to survive and Earthquake / Assurance, so than it can Pain Split and KO with Ice Beam.

You misunderstand how Assurance works. If the targeted Pokemon takes damage on the turn you use Assurance (whether from switching into Spikes/SR, a teammate's attack, possibly LO recoil, etc.), then Assurance has double base power. NOT if it has damage from previous turns. So if a previously-max-health Froslass switches into Donphan's Assurance while SR are on the field (meaning she takes 25% damage) then that Assurance would have double base power. However, if Frolass doesn't take any damage the next turn and Donphan uses Assurance, Assurance will only have 50 base power.

It doesn't matter if Froslass is at maximum Health, but I was under the impression that Assurance had to hit before to get double damage. In any event, I don't think it matters because Froslass coming into Donphan usually means that Stealth Rock hasn't been used yet, because Donphan is usually a team's Stealth Rock user.

But the discussion is supposed to be about whether Froslass is BL or not, not whether Spikes, "easy" or not, are broken. How would this be any different from the "Is Stealth Rocks broken?" debates that were going on not too long ago?

The point of finding out if easy Spikes are broken are not is because that's what Froslass does. It sets up easy spikes. If easy Spikes aren't "too good", then it doesn't matter that Froslass can set them up. That's the point of the third question. If the answer to the 3rd question, then the answers to the first two questions decide whether Froslass is BL or not.

 

[d2m]

I was under the impression that Assurance only mattered if they were hit by Assurance previously. In any event, Donphan is almost always the team's Stealth Rocker, meaning it likely won't be switching into Stealth Rock.

All it needs is over like 60% or whatever HP it needs to survive and Earthquake / Assurance, so than it can Pain Split and KO with Ice Beam.

Actually, leads normally use SR, and Donphan makes a shitty lead. Usually teams with Donphan utilize Omastar or Uxie/Mespirit as their SR lead (at least in my observation).

Well have fun being utterly destroyed by Rhyperior and Aggron.

True enough, he is quite the setup bait (or free switch in for CB versions) for them, which is why I haven't used him in the new meta, but to be fair: until he's scouted your entire moveset, the threat of Low Kick is enough to prevent them from coming in.

That's the purpose of the other questions. It's quite simple, while we are discussing if Froslass can get these spikes up easily, does it even matter because easy Spikes might not be broken. However, obviously easy Spikes are broken (well you think so) based on your reaction.

So if (by my answers) Froslass cannot get spikes up easily, cannot get spikes up consistently, and cannot protect the spikes, it IS BL because 3 layers of spikes = good ground for sweepers. That's the worst logic I've ever seen.

It doesn't matter if Froslass is at maximum Health, but I was under the impression that Assurance had to hit before to get double damage. In any event, I don't think it matters because Froslass coming into Donphan usually means that Stealth Rock hasn't been used yet, because Donphan is usually a team's Stealth Rock user.

See 1.

The point of finding out if easy Spikes are broken are not is because that's what Froslass does. It sets up easy spikes. If easy Spikes aren't "too good", then it doesn't matter that Froslass can set them up. That's the point of the third question. If the answer to the 3rd question, then the answers to the first two questions decide whether Froslass is BL or not.

See 3.

Let's reiterate your argument:

Premise 1: Froslass gets spikes up easily.
Premise 2: In addition to getting Spikes up easily, it is a good spin blocker.
Premise 3: Several layers of Spikes fits the Support Characteristic by allowing others to sweep easily.
Conclusion: Froslass is BL.

Premise 1 is false.

Premise 2 is shaky, the defensive set you listed is a highly situational spin blocker and it requires them to have not damaged it in the lead slot which is virtually impossible. I can't in good conscience say it is completely false, but it is shaky at best.

Premise 3 is an obvious yes, you can't deny it in any meta, but it has no meaning without 1 or 2.

Thus, without 1 and 2, your argument cannot stand and the conclusion is false.

That's my response.

 

[Heysup]

I don't know how much more simple I can make this. You don't seem to understand the most simple statements, I don't really know what else to say, so let's try this one more time.

Actually, leads normally use SR, and Donphan makes a shitty lead. Usually teams with Donphan utilize Omastar or Uxie/Mespirit as their SR lead (at least in my observation).

| Donphan    | Move         | Stealth Rock     |    67.1 |

For what it's worth. I know, you probably will just ignore this, but whatever.

True enough, he is quite the setup bait (or free switch in for CB versions) for them, which is why I haven't used him in the new meta, but to be fair: until he's scouted your entire moveset, the threat of Low Kick is enough to prevent them from coming in.

Well if you Taunt, then Pursuit Froslass, they will know that you are missing Low Kick and absolutely destroy your face.

So if (by my answers) Froslass cannot get spikes up easily, cannot get spikes up consistently, and cannot protect the spikes, it IS BL because 3 layers of spikes = good ground for sweepers. That's the worst logic I've ever seen.

Oh right because that is exactly what I said. I always have to baby you with arguments because you can't grasp simple concepts. So here:

Purpose of question one: If we agree that Froslass can set up Spikes relatively easily, then that means Spikes will be up at some point in the game, but that alone doesn't mean it's BL. If spikes aren't easy to set up, and Froslass doesn't do its job well, then it clearly isn't BL.

If we agree Froslass can set up Spikes relatively easily, then we need to ask: "Are spikes going to be up for the whole/most of the match?"

Purpose of question two: If we agree that Froslass sets up Spikes easily, we need to know if these Spikes are staying or not. If they are staying, that increases Froslass's overall "power", if they can be removed easily, then Froslass's isn't really that impressive.

If we agree that it isn't easy to get rid of Spikes, then we need to ask: "Are Spikes really a big deal?"

Purpose of question three: If Spikes are set up relatively easily, and are relatively easy to keep on the field, why does that matter? Are easy Spikes "too good" or not?

Premise 1: Froslass gets spikes up easily.
Premise 2: In addition to getting Spikes up easily, it is a good spin blocker.
Premise 3: Several layers of Spikes fits the Support Characteristic by allowing others to sweep easily.
Conclusion: Froslass is BL.

No that wasn't premise 2, premise 2 was that spikes are easy to keep on the field in general. Froslass being a decent Spin Blocker is just a small part of that argument. You haven't even addressed it actually.

Premise 1 is false.

Premise 1 is correct.

(You need proof / reasoning if you want to prove me wrong, as I already stated mine, otherwise it's just your word against mine).

Premise 2 is shaky, the defensive set you listed is a highly situational spin blocker and it requires them to have not damaged it in the lead slot which is virtually impossible. I can't in good conscience say it is completely false, but it is shaky at best.

"highly situational", no. Slightly situational, maybe. That isn't even half of the argument though, Froslass isn't the only way to keep Spikes on the field.

Premise 3 is an obvious yes, you can't deny it in any meta, but it has no meaning without 1 or 2.

Yes! An answer!

Thus, without 1 and 2, your argument cannot stand and the conclusion is false.

Right, that's the point of asking those questions in order. However, if 1 and 2 are answered "yes", then Froslass is BL material.

I'll try to track down some of the posts to put in the OP.

 

[zarator]

a) Are Spikes too easy to set up?

No, actually. The lead set has an hard time getting in those Spikes against a lot of leads like Ambipom, Cloyster, Spiritomb, Alakazam and Electrode. The faster ones can 2HKO Froslass with ease, the slower ones can 2HKO with priority, leaving her with only three choices:

1) Lay Spikes one time and switch. This scenario is hardly a good one for the Froslass user, since you still face a 100% health lead, and if the opponent set up Stealth Rock before Froslass manage to get back in, your only hope is Rapid Spin support (unless the opponent's Lead was Ambipom or Electrode, whose attacks bring her in the 30% region only).

2) Hurt the opponent and come back later. Again, this is not a great scenario from the Froslass user's point of view for the reasons outlined above.

3) Outright switch. Not an exalting opening move from any point of view, especially because, when not used as a lead, 252SpA/252 Spd Froslass is generally outclassed by the bulkier spread.

About the bulky set, yes, it can get Spikes easy if you use it well, but not better (heck, maybe actually worse) than other Spikes users like Omastar (i.e. come in and force a switch, something Omastar does better thanks to resistances IMO). Certainly not in a broken way.

b) Are Spikes too easy to keep on the field?

Yes and no. As a standalone Spin blocker, Froslass sucks. Period. Even with a bulky spread, Donphan can 2HKO it, as well as Cloyster. Stealth Rock weakness only makes things worse, especially when you are not immune to Spikes. What make Froslass tricky is the possibility to pair it with another Ghost, letting the probably bulkier one (Rotom, Spiritomb or Dusclops generally) cripple the opposing Spinners and leaving Froslass itself as a last resort stop. However, the dual-ghost strategy is not something which work only with Froslass. I'll admit Froslass makes a damn good partner for another Ghost because of Spikes (freeing a slot on your team for something else), but again not to the point of being broken. Most hyper-offensive teams out there can overwhelm two ghosts with no less problems than one (and generally Froslass is the lesser of the problems aside from Spikes). Probably this strategy hurt a lot Bulky offense and balanced teams, but this fact alone (making one style unviable) does not make Froslass broken. Otherwise we would ban almost every sweeper in LC!

c) If the answer to the above questions are both "Yes", or at least "pretty close", then we can ask: Are easy Spikes broken? That is, does it support Pokemon to the extent that they can sweep with little effort? If yes, which Pokemon?

The only style of play I can see Froslass broken is the dual-ghost outlined above, especially with ferocious sweepers like Raikou lurking in the tier. To sum it up, I'm skeptical as of now about her, but I think she deserve another chance in an environment with other more offensive suspects banned. If we still note that some sweepers (the first one which comes to my mind is Mismagius - triple-ghost?!? - but there are other possibilities) still are too difficult to handle, then yes, we will have to ban Froslass. But if the only effect Froslass have on the metagame is making some leads like Uxie less effective (a debatable point, but keep with my reasoning for now) and giving a great Spiker to the UU tier, then I'd say it's not enough to deserve Borderline status.

 

[Heysup]

a) Are Spikes too easy to set up?

No, actually. The lead set has an hard time getting in those Spikes against a lot of leads like Ambipom, Cloyster, Spiritomb, Alakazam and Electrode. The faster ones can 2HKO Froslass with ease, the slower ones can 2HKO with priority, leaving her with only three choices:

1) Lay Spikes one time and switch. This scenario is hardly a good one for the Froslass user, since you still face a 100% health lead, and if the opponent set up Stealth Rock before Froslass manage to get back in, your only hope is Rapid Spin support (unless the opponent's Lead was Ambipom or Electrode, whose attacks bring her in the 30% region only).

2) Hurt the opponent and come back later. Again, this is not a great scenario from the Froslass user's point of view for the reasons outlined above.

3) Outright switch. Not an exalting opening move from any point of view, especially because, when not used as a lead, 252SpA/252 Spd Froslass is generally outclassed by the bulkier spread.

There are only a handful of leads that do this. And keep in mind, Froslass isn't always a lead. The other leads are easily dispatched of with Taunt, Spikes, and Destiny Bond.

About the bulky set, yes, it can get Spikes easy if you use it well, but not better (heck, maybe actually worse) than other Spikes users like Omastar (i.e. come in and force a switch, something Omastar does better thanks to resistances IMO). Certainly not in a broken way.

Omastar doesn't hit 290 Speed or have Taunt, and has a horrible 4x grass weakness. What's stopping a Spinner from just coming in and using Rapid Spin on Omastar while it sets up? Nothing.

b) Are Spikes too easy to keep on the field?

Yes and no. As a standalone Spin blocker, Froslass sucks. Period. Even with a bulky spread, Donphan can 2HKO it, as well as Cloyster. Stealth Rock weakness only makes things worse, especially when you are not immune to Spikes. What make Froslass tricky is the possibility to pair it with another Ghost, letting the probably bulkier one (Rotom, Spiritomb or Dusclops generally) cripple the opposing Spinners and leaving Froslass itself as a last resort stop. However, the dual-ghost strategy is not something which work only with Froslass. I'll admit Froslass makes a damn good partner for another Ghost because of Spikes (freeing a slot on your team for something else), but again not to the point of being broken. Most hyper-offensive teams out there can overwhelm two ghosts with no less problems than one (and generally Froslass is the lesser of the problems aside from Spikes). Probably this strategy hurt a lot Bulky offense and balanced teams, but this fact alone (making one style unviable) does not make Froslass broken. Otherwise we would ban almost every sweeper in LC!

Firstly, Froslass beats Donphan 100% of the time. Even if it uses a max attack + Adamant spread, it will always beat Donphan.

252+ Atk Donphan's Earthquake vs Bulky Froslass:
372 Atk vs 232 Def & 344 HP (100 Base Power): 172 - 204 (50.00% - 59.30%)

This means that Froslass can use Pain Split and easily get to around 60% (even with Stealth Rock in play), bringing Donphan into Ice Beam KO range. Keep in mind, according to the semi-accurate (in Donphan's case) stats, Donphan will usually be Impish anyway.

c) If the answer to the above questions are both "Yes", or at least "pretty close", then we can ask: Are easy Spikes broken? That is, does it support Pokemon to the extent that they can sweep with little effort? If yes, which Pokemon?

The only style of play I can see Froslass broken is the dual-ghost outlined above, especially with ferocious sweepers like Raikou lurking in the tier. To sum it up, I'm skeptical as of now about her, but I think she deserve another chance in an environment with other more offensive suspects banned. If we still note that some sweepers (the first one which comes to my mind is Mismagius - triple-ghost?!? - but there are other possibilities) still are too difficult to handle, then yes, we will have to ban Froslass. But if the only effect Froslass have on the metagame is making some leads like Uxie less effective (a debatable point, but keep with my reasoning for now) and giving a great Spiker to the UU tier, then I'd say it's not enough to deserve Borderline status.

Very understandable opinion, one that isn't too far off from my own. The major difference is that I think the answer to 1 and 2 are "yes". Thanks for making sense of the questions :)

 

[Bologo]

Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 HP/224 Def/32 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Pain Split

Just a nitpick on your bulky EV spread, but shouldn't this be 248 HP/236 Def? 252 HP EVs on Froslass is a bad idea, because 344 HP is divisible by 4, making it a Stealth Rock number for Froslass. Since this isn't a lead, it can be assumed that it has a chance of being affected by Stealth Rock, so the EV spread should be changed to 248 HP/236 Def.

edit: oops lol I'm a blindie

 

[Heysup]

Just a nitpick on your bulky EV spread, but shouldn't this be 248 HP/236 Def? 252 HP EVs on Froslass is a bad idea, because 344 HP is divisible by 4, making it a Stealth Rock number for Froslass. Since this isn't a lead, it can be assumed that it has a chance of being affected by Stealth Rock, so the EV spread should be changed to 248 HP/236 Def.

Good point, though it should be 248 HP / 228 Def, you added too many Def EVs.

 

[zarator]

There are only a handful of leads that do this. And keep in mind, Froslass isn't always a lead. The other leads are easily dispatched of with Taunt, Spikes, and Destiny Bond.

I was discussing the lead set here, so I fail to understand the "Froslass isn't always a lead" remark. Besides, the fact that other leads lose handily to Froslass is of little significance to me when I still see enough variety in the leads on the ladder to not justify an argument of "overcentralization" about froslass herself. But I guess that november's statistics will prove whether I am right or not.

Omastar doesn't hit 290 Speed or have Taunt, and has a horrible 4x grass weakness. What's stopping a Spinner from just coming in and using Rapid Spin on Omastar while it sets up? Nothing.

Of course Froslass does have some points over Omastar, but the whole "come in on something which cannot threaten you and set up Spikes" isn't anything new. And while standard spinners like Donphan cannot afford to switch in, others like Cloyster (often Froslass carry Ice Beam as its only attack) stand a good chance. So I think Froslass is a good Spiker, but not to the point you are hyping it in my opinion.

Firstly, Froslass beats Donphan 100% of the time. Even if it uses a max attack + Adamant spread, it will always beat Donphan.

252+ Atk Donphan's Earthquake vs Bulky Froslass:
372 Atk vs 232 Def & 344 HP (100 Base Power): 172 - 204 (50.00% - 59.30%)

This means that Froslass can use Pain Split and easily get to around 60% (even with Stealth Rock in play), bringing Donphan into Ice Beam KO range. Keep in mind, according to the semi-accurate (in Donphan's case) stats, Donphan will usually be Impish anyway.

1) No way I'm gonna keep Donphan in against a Froslass
2) If spinning is so hard in this metagame as you point out, we could assume Froslass has to deal with entry hazards to (and oddly, with Stealth Rock and Spikes up, that Earthquake is a OHKO - ok, maybe I deserve it if I manage all that set up, but it shows nonetheless that Froslass is not as bulky as you think she is) Pain Split is still annoying though if you do not play correctly.

Very understandable opinion, one that isn't too far off from my own. The major difference is that I think the answer to 1 and 2 are "yes". Thanks for making sense of the questions :)

I'm glad we agree with something^^

Just a minor nitpick. Since the first post of yours linked in the OP under the "Hide" tag is a response to a post of mine, could you add my post too please? It would make more sense out of both our positions I think.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Are Spikes too easy to set up?

A difficult question to assess objectively on the face of it, but one that I would have to give a tentative ‘No’ to at this point in time.

To get at least one layer up is easy, but that applies to just about any good Spiker you can think of, whether it be something with great bulk like Omastar, or something like Qwilfish that relies on a mixture of speed and resistances. I take it that the question is asking whether 2 or perhaps 3 layers can be set up with ease, in which case it is a much more difficult one to get right. In Froslass’ case, she cannot rely on getting up Spikes bit by bit throughout a match the way say Omastar can by utilizing its impressive bulk and typing. In the majority of cases, Froslass will not be able to brave more than the odd hit with such low defenses, especially if not running a large amount of bulk, which in turn leaves her open to a much wider speed range.

It is common for Froslass to get around her inability to last the majority of a match by specializing as a suicide Spiker in the lead spot, trying to get up Spikes as early and as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, most people have got Froslass almost completely sussed out by now from this perspective, and this strategy is therefore far from reliable. The prevalence of Ambipom on the lead scene is a particular hindrance to her. Between 115 base speed, Taunt and Payback or Pursuit, Ambipom in general doesn’t provide Froslass a guarantee of anything, and can actually make leading with her a big risk. She would have to be lucky to even escape without taking heavy damage, never mind getting up 1 layer of Spikes.

From a non-lead perspective however, is where I find Froslass to do her best work, and from a less risky standpoint. By abusing a slightly unorthodox setup, in a similar vein to Heysup’s build, during the first test I, perhaps rashly, came to the conclusion that Froslass was indeed worthy of the Support Characteristic. I have to admit though that Froslass’ greatly enhanced potential in what was then an extremely viable Hail stall strategy may have somewhat biased my judgment slightly. Froslass was certainly insanely good alongside Abomasnow in Hail (the question answered with a resounding Yes in this scenario), but now it seems that Froslass wasn’t the guilty party after all. It is here, at this point in time, where I face the greatest uncertainty in trying to answer this question. Part of it is due to the fact that I have only used Froslass on a handful of occasions so far, with so much new to test and having limited amounts of time online. But it is mostly due to the niggling idea that most people simply aren’t using Froslass to her full potential. Indeed, out of many matches in this new phase, I have yet to be the victim of an easy sweep as a result of Froslass’ support, but many times I wonder if my opponents are being incredibly naïve with their use of Froslass. Things like “I wouldn’t waste Froslass like that!” and “She would be doing much better in this scenario!” often pop into my mind.

From this point of view, you can see why I am struggling to make a concrete statement to this question when applied to Froslass. I definitely need more time to test her, but I also need to see more ’smart’ use in general. Otherwise the answer would have to remain ’No’. All I can say so far is that I have never seen a realistic situation in which Froslass could set up more than one layer without risk of being killed in the process. She simply doesn’t have the right attributes to do so.

Are Spikes too easy to keep on the field?

They can be somewhat easy, but to keep to the issue at hand, it is important to focus the question specifically on Froslass and her ability to support the team in a possibly broken fashion. To do this, she would naturally have to be the one providing the Spikes in the first place. But to follow on from my answer to the first question, under common conditions Froslass will not be able to set up any layers without taking a huge hit in the process. Therefore at the point where her spin-blocking abilities become useful in the case of her own Spikes, she is already weakened to the point where said role is already heavily compromised, even when ignoring possible and probable hazards on her side, none of which she likes taking.

After all, as far as spin-blockers go, Froslass is the worst of the lot. Base stats / typing not meant for taking hits aside, she also doesn’t Levitate and is as weak to entry hazards as can possibly be. Conjuring up daft situations such as between Froslass and Donphan is just that; daft. Notwithstanding the very ideal scenario of getting multiple Spikes up almost completely unscathed, the assumption of a non-standard custom set automatically grants the assumption of various non-standard Donphan builds, whether it be the use of moves like Stone Edge and Assurance with hazards down, or the possibility of a spread more focused on taking special hits; options that do not necessarily hinder Donphan’s main objective in general at all.

All in all, whilst Froslass’ ability to block spin by herself is a definite plus, in common conditions against decent opponents, Froslass’ ability to do this is generally incompatible with the scenario that begs the question to begin with. And in the case of a very probable double Ghost strategy with Froslass, the opponent’s job with respect to penetrating the anti-spin threat is almost half done already by the time said question becomes relevant. At this point, the contribution of Froslass herself with regards to spin-blocking is marginalized. The situation is not all that separated from one in which you are facing a team with a Ghost and any given Spiker has done the job prior. From this perspective, the question can be answered according to how hard you find spinning in general, with little consideration as to whether Froslass herself was responsible for the hazards or not.

Of course, a significant part of any answer to this question is directly related to the first, and I have already admitted that a lot of uncertainty remains for me on that first question, for reasons already outlined. But the incompatibility argument holds to a reasonable degree regardless of the extent to which question 1 can be true in the case of Froslass. For these reasons I am saying ‘No’ right now, but perhaps a conclusion arrived at in a more roundabout way than expected.

Are easy Spikes broken? That is, does it support Pokemon to the extent that they can sweep with little effort? If yes, which Pokemon?

This is by far the most difficult question to answer, with so many interchanging variables involved. In fact, I would go so far as saying that no reasonably accurate answer can be given through paper reasoning alone, and that actual experience in battle must go a long way to dictating the overall ‘extent’ that the question asks.

One thing’s for sure is that it definitely varies wildly from Pokemon to Pokemon. If we consider a top threat like Raikou for example, it is clear that Spikes can have a huge effect on its ability to sweep, what with almost every decent check to it being affected by Spikes. Raikou doesn’t care much for Flying types, and most Levitators aren’t a particular threat to it either, with the possible exception of Claydol. However, if we look at another top threat like Gallade, we see that it has a number of good checks (Weezing, Golbat, Moltres, Mesprit, Honchkrow, Uxie etc) that are airborne, and Spikes makes no difference to them. Therefore Spikes has much less of a general effect in supporting a Pokemon like Gallade than it does when supporting a threat like Raikou. The big trouble is in assessing the overall threat level combined with the extent to which they are supported by Spikes, in order to assess how helpful Spikes can be in general for UU offense as a whole, and this is a big ask.

However, the situation can be simplified if it could be shown that multiple Spikes, by themselves, give one particular Pokemon an advantage significant enough that they are truly deemed to be broken (whilst not being at all broken without it) under this situation. If such a condition is met, then it wouldn't matter if it wasn't at all helpful for anything else. Raikou is perhaps the most probable candidate right now, but I personally remain unconvinced on this assertion. If the ’one Pokemon’ condition cannot be met, then it can still be met by the ’several Pokemon’ condition, but then it becomes a much more complicated function to decipher. One that is not only near impossible to assess objectively outside of battle, but one that is much more prone to subjective opinion based on individual experience.

That’s all I have to say on the three questions so far. Now I need to go test her more whenever I can, and hope more people start making more intelligent use of her.

 

[Bluewind]

a) Are Spikes too easy to set up?
As said before, it's really hard to answer to this kind of question because there are teams and teams, but I'd say no. Froslass might have the hell of an easy time against some leads and feel free to do whatever it wants, but doesn't the same happen to pokés like Cloyster or Omastar for instance? The moment they see an Uxie Lead (NonTrickScarf) or an Spiritomb, it's pretty obvious that at least one layer is going down; and when you add that to the fact they got the bulk to sponge some attacks during the match and find opportunities to setup, Froslass doesn't seem broken at all. The difference is that it's got speed instead of bulk (of course Frossy has more to offer than spikes, like the capacity to work as Spin Blocker on her own unefficient way and Destiny Bond, but Cloyster and Omastar have their own assets as well, like Rock Blast on the former and access to both hazards on the last).

b) Are Spikes too easy to keep on the field?
Again I'd say no for very simple reasons, and my arguments will also make reference to the current metagame, as I believe that's enough to explain my point:
Usable pursuiters - Honchrow is a blessing, whether you use him to pursuit ghosts or just to wreck havoc. Spiritomb and Absol also worth mentioning as being pretty useful outside of these situations.
Usable Spinners - You don't need to add something to your team to ONLY spin. Donphan can cover many weakness with its typing and bulk, Hitmontop got Intimidate and nice defenses to help you soothen physical blows, also being usable on a more offensive way. Consider all that, add pokes like Cloyster, and see that you're likely to face a spinblocker on most games.
Froslass as blocker - Froslass really shouldn't be considered a spinblocker at all, except maybe for Heysup's proslass set, which unhappily I didn't have the chance to face yet, because outside of this set Froslass isn't likely even to have a second chance of stepping on the battlefield, due to SR and the need of perfect prediction only to bring her in.

As I answered No for both questions I won't be answering C because I would go way too off-topic to do so, not attaining my argument to Froslass.

 

[Cuiv]

Just to throw something out there, an alternative Froslass lead:

Froslass@Choice Specs
Modest
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Ice Beam
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt
Trick

Sure, you don't get Spikes up, but this Froslass beats pretty much every other lead and can cripple something else with TrickSpecs. Every common lead except Arcanine, Spiritomb, Electrode and Ambipom is hit for supereffective damage. Electrode will (probably) Taunt before you can Trick it Specs, but you can hit it hard with Ice Beam, and it can't hit you with Explosion. The other three hate being Tricked Choice Specs.

 

[Alaka]

If your tricking Ambipom your doing it wrong.

But yeah Specs Froslass makes an excellent lead, I used it heavily before the merger, and then again since Froslass got added back in this time. Its real selling point is how the increase in power allows it to beat common counters who don't expect it to hit that hard. For instance the 2hko on some Spiritomb and most clefable as well as Steelix, and Milotic can come as quite the suprise and throughly screw over a team. Also Claydol and Donphan are generally 1hko'd.

Also Specslass doesn't have to lead is quite effective outside of that (ask ipl).

 

[Heysup]

a) Are Spikes too easy to set up?
As said before, it's really hard to answer to this kind of question because there are teams and teams, but I'd say no. Froslass might have the hell of an easy time against some leads and feel free to do whatever it wants, but doesn't the same happen to pokés like Cloyster or Omastar for instance? The moment they see an Uxie Lead (NonTrickScarf) or an Spiritomb, it's pretty obvious that at least one layer is going down; and when you add that to the fact they got the bulk to sponge some attacks during the match and find opportunities to setup, Froslass doesn't seem broken at all. The difference is that it's got speed instead of bulk (of course Frossy has more to offer than spikes, like the capacity to work as Spin Blocker on her own unefficient way and Destiny Bond, but Cloyster and Omastar have their own assets as well, like Rock Blast on the former and access to both hazards on the last)

It's not just the speed. It's the fact that Froslass can't be spun on, and the fact that it OHKOes the most common Spinner. I mean, when people see Cloyster or Omastar, they can just go to Blastoise and Rapid Spin away, while versus Froslass they can't do much of anything really, besides 3HKOing the bulky variant with Surf, and even then it can Pain Split before it's KOed to put Blastoise at barely manageable HP.

b) Are Spikes too easy to keep on the field?
Again I'd say no for very simple reasons, and my arguments will also make reference to the current metagame, as I believe that's enough to explain my point:
Usable pursuiters - Honchrow is a blessing, whether you use him to pursuit ghosts or just to wreck havoc. Spiritomb and Absol also worth mentioning as being pretty useful outside of these situations.

Honckrow is out step and OHKOed by Ice Beam, not to mention Pursuit doesn't even OHKO the bulky Froslass.

Spiritomb doesn't even 4HKO the bulky Froslass, and in order to 2HKO the min/min defense Froslass it needs 172 Atk Evs and an Adamant nature (meaning its OHKOed by Gallade and other stuff).

This is just on Froslass, the least bulky of all the Ghosts in the metagame. Rotom, Missy, Dusclops, and Spiritomb will easily beat all of these Pursuiters with WoW.

Usable Spinners - You don't need to add something to your team to ONLY spin. Donphan can cover many weakness with its typing and bulk, Hitmontop got Intimidate and nice defenses to help you soothen physical blows, also being usable on a more offensive way. Consider all that, add pokes like Cloyster, and see that you're likely to face a spinblocker on most games.

Right, but how are Donphan, Hitmontop, or Cloyster going to spin against a Combo of Froslass and another Ghost? It's almost impossible without incredible prediction...I've tried it and it doesn't take a skilled player to just switch around and burn you while you frantically try to predict right.

Froslass as blocker - Froslass really shouldn't be considered a spinblocker at all, except maybe for Heysup's proslass set, which unhappily I didn't have the chance to face yet, because outside of this set Froslass isn't likely even to have a second chance of stepping on the battlefield, due to SR and the need of perfect prediction only to bring her in.

I do agree that the non-defensive Froslass isn't a good "blocker", but that it still has that absolutely key ghost typing which stops people from spinning while its setting up. I think this is the major thing people overlook.

 

[Scoopapa]

I switch Hitmontop in on the Froslass leads, and pursuit them to death. The damage rolls generally work out that 2 pursuit's + rapid spin leaves it with a sliver of health and all it's hard work for naught. When it's Destiny Bond time, I switch in Cloyster and start spiking. As soon as it uses Taunt or Spikes on Cloyster, I Ice Shard for the KO.

It's really elaborate and complicated, but it usually works and it's a solution I found without having to change my team. If Hitmontop gets Taunted, I just kill Froslass and spin later. I usually find he doesn't get Taunted, though. I would generally agree that Froslass gets it's spikes up way too easily, but Hitmontop is with Pursuit might be a decent consideration for some teams (teams that make up for having a lame Hitmontop by using pokemon that are only UU because of 4x SR weakness, for instance). Pursuit on a spinning Hitmontop isn't really overspecialized considering that it's designed to stop the ghosts that stop it from doing it's job. Over all I would say Froslass fits the support characteristic though. There really isn't much that can stop it from spiking in your face while you try not to die horribly to Destiny Bond.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I switch Hitmontop in on the Froslass leads, and pursuit them to death. The damage rolls generally work out that 2 pursuit's + rapid spin leaves it with a sliver of health and all it's hard work for naught. When it's Destiny Bond time, I switch in Cloyster and start spiking. As soon as it uses Taunt or Spikes on Cloyster, I Ice Shard for the KO.

It's really elaborate and complicated, but it usually works and it's a solution I found without having to change my team. If Hitmontop gets Taunted, I just kill Froslass and spin later. I usually find he doesn't get Taunted, though. I would generally agree that Froslass gets it's spikes up way too easily, but Hitmontop is with Pursuit might be a decent consideration for some teams (teams that make up for having a lame Hitmontop by using pokemon that are only UU because of 4x SR weakness, for instance). Pursuit on a spinning Hitmontop isn't really overspecialized considering that it's designed to stop the ghosts that stop it from doing it's job. Over all I would say Froslass fits the support characteristic though. There really isn't much that can stop it from spiking in your face while you try not to die horribly to Destiny Bond.

I have to say, that is an absolutely dreadful way of dealing with Froslass. Froslass is immune to Rapid Spin, and all good Froslass users will be Taunting Hitmontop on first sight. I don't really care for what worse players do tbh.

I do like Pursuit on spinner 'Top though, but good Froslass counter it ain't.