Nas
Banned deucer.
Yeah I wrote them for Froslass as well, only realizing it wasn't even a suspect until right after I finished. =/
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Froslass - Ice Queen
- Thread starter Heysup
- Start date
Just a thought, maybe you should have nominated Froslass before writing your suspect paragraphs????
But really, it's a simply copy/paste.
Anyway now that I'm over (well I'll at least pretend to be) Froslass staying, what do you think is going to change for Froslass assuming at least Cresselia is banned? Is it going to take a turn for the worse?
But really, it's a simply copy/paste.
Anyway now that I'm over (well I'll at least pretend to be) Froslass staying, what do you think is going to change for Froslass assuming at least Cresselia is banned? Is it going to take a turn for the worse?
I think we'll see a lot more of those Froslass + roar Raikou/Rhyperior/Arcanine/etc. teams, especially if Damp Rock gets banned, since it would otherwise several as a decent deterrent.
On the bright side if Raikou doesn't go my end-of-last-period-I'm-pretty-sure-Honch-and-Gallade-are-fucked team will be legal and metagame relevant again so that'd be kinda convenient at least...
On the bright side if Raikou doesn't go my end-of-last-period-I'm-pretty-sure-Honch-and-Gallade-are-fucked team will be legal and metagame relevant again so that'd be kinda convenient at least...
I think Froslass will have more of an effect on the UU metagame if / when Cress leaves, not because it would make it indirectly easier for her to lay Spikes, but because it would be the departure of the only major defensive threat that doesn't give a fuck. There are so many offensive Pokemon right now that are constantly frustrated by the presence of a giant space duck that can't be worn down easily on the switch-in..
Interesting point there. Part the reason I haven't noticed Froslass's Spikes taking its toll on my walls is that I've been using Cress for the majority of this round, who's just about twice the wall anything else in UU can hope to be. Once Cress is banned, people may start realizing the importance of Spikes and how easily Froslass can set them up.
But for now, better luck next time, guys.
But for now, better luck next time, guys.
I actually think Cresselia really helped because of Froslass's ability to completely shut down every variant. Being able to set up on the most popular Pokemon is a good thing.
You still haven't explained this, and it really puzzles me. When Froslass' "best" set can't break her Substitute and can be 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock, it makes for not just one hell of a shaky counter, but quite the liability.
Well I guess I regret saying "completely shut down every variant", however it is not far from the truth.
For starters, let's make it clear that most Cresselia don't 2HKO Froslass ever, even with SR (does 35% max):
Second, Cresselia rarely runs Substitute:
So my statement is true for almost every Cresselia variant.
Anyway, for your wannabe Raikou Cresselia set, Froslass can still check it. If it comes in on a <not Substitute> (or revenge kill), Froslass will be able to Taunt, Pain Split, and set up a layer of Spikes before switching out. This will allow Pokemon like Absol, Drapion, or Houndoom (etc) to come in with impunity and absolutely destroy the Cresselia users team with +2 Atk / SpA, Stealth Rock (since we're assuming Stealth Rock for Froslass), and Spikes.
So no, Froslass doesn't completely counter these rare variants of Cresselia, however it can still check + set up on it and consequently set up your team for a sweep.
Worst case scenario: Froslass Taunts, switches out, and Pain Splits later to heal up.
For starters, let's make it clear that most Cresselia don't 2HKO Froslass ever, even with SR (does 35% max):
Code:
| Cresselia | SpAttack EV | None | 56.9 |
| Cresselia | SpAttack EV | Max | 21.0 |
| Cresselia | SpAttack EV | Other (5) | < 5.7 |
Code:
| Cresselia | Move | Substitute | 20.7 |Anyway, for your wannabe Raikou Cresselia set, Froslass can still check it. If it comes in on a <not Substitute> (or revenge kill), Froslass will be able to Taunt, Pain Split, and set up a layer of Spikes before switching out. This will allow Pokemon like Absol, Drapion, or Houndoom (etc) to come in with impunity and absolutely destroy the Cresselia users team with +2 Atk / SpA, Stealth Rock (since we're assuming Stealth Rock for Froslass), and Spikes.
So no, Froslass doesn't completely counter these rare variants of Cresselia, however it can still check + set up on it and consequently set up your team for a sweep.
Worst case scenario: Froslass Taunts, switches out, and Pain Splits later to heal up.
I agree with Heysup in that Froslass was a usually a great switch in to Cresselia to taunt her and then set up some spikes, while Cressy couldn't do much of anything back without a Calm Mind or two. Even if Cressy had a Calm Mind or two and could beat Froslass one on one, Froslass could just taunt her and switch out to something that can handle Cressy, practically forcing her to switch. However, I think Froslass is going to be abused next test, with or without Cresselia. People haven't realized how dangerous Froslass really is because they have been busy with the newest additions to UU (Cressy and PZ), but once they're gone (hopefully), Froslass is going to be on nearly every team.
Um, what? Froslass can't come in on Cress and expect to get any Spikes up, it's just going to come in on Calm Mind or Substitute, both of which will pose a major problem for her. You don't get three free turns to Taunt, Pain Split, and Spikes, because you're getting hit every turn and Pain Split only heals so much. If you keep using Pain Split until you're comfortable enough to set up Spikes, you won't be able to set them up at all, save for one layer if you give up trying to stall it out and just take the hit.
That sounds more like every case scenario.
Except you're always coming in on Calm Mind. If Froslass is forced out, it's not setting up Spikes and the momentum of the match shifts in my favor.
Way to not read anything I posted. Another reason I would really stop using the max SpA Cresselia as an argument is because Froslass is about as likely to run Shadow Ball as Cresselia is to run Sub max SpA. With the worse-case scenario still being Cresselia Taunted with its almighty 240 SpA, allowing "anything" to come and set up, I don't see why it's such a big deal to acknowledge that made a great Pokemon to set up Spikes against.This is only "if" all of the "ifs" happen. They won't; they never do.
Also keep in mind that Cresselia has shifted the metagame in favor of stall teams, which Froslass is built to destroy with Taunt, Spikes, and Pain Split.
lol, Cresselia's a wall, why would you max out Sp. Att? I assumed no Sp. Att for Cress (though I really wanted to assume 88 EVs, since that's the set I've been using for this entire UU phase), and Froslass at max HP, Timid nature. Froslass still lost. You come in on CM, I keep hitting you with Psychic until you switch or take the KO. Froslass isn't getting Spikes if she comes in on Cresselia.
Or should we start assuming max Sp. Def Calm for Froslass now?
So if it runs min SpA then it never 2HKOes. 12+ 35 - 6.25 + 35 - 6.25 = never 2HKOes ever. Math is your friend.
Backtracking time!
We were talking about Froslass switching into a Substitute since that's the best situation for Cress. Changing it to Calm Mind isn't a great plan since it leaves you open to Pain Split.
If it switches into a not Substitute, it can comfortably Taunt the next Calm Mind/Substitute and proceed to set up 2 layers of Spikes, then Pain Split, and then switch out with Cress at around 60%.
Rawr scary +1 Cress with like 270 SpA that's been Taunted and is at 60% HP....
If it switches into a not Substitute, it can comfortably Taunt the next Calm Mind/Substitute and proceed to set up 2 layers of Spikes, then Pain Split, and then switch out with Cress at around 60%.
Rawr scary +1 Cress with like 270 SpA that's been Taunted and is at 60% HP....
Heysup, were you even paying attention? He said "Except you're always coming in on Calm Mind"; like three times. Where did he mention anything about a Substitute, except in passing during one part of one post? Anyway, to cut this pissing contest short, Froslass loses if it comes in on CM or Thunderwave and wins if it comes in on Substitute or something. So it can sometimes set up on Cresselia, but Cresselia's ability to ignore spikes, and it being the best wall in the tier, negates that and then some. Okay?
I did miss that actually, my bad, however if you read the posts before you'll see Lemmiwinks suggested Substitute, and with good reason (it's better).
Anyway, why would he suggest Calm Mind? It is a worse option. If I come in on a Calm Mind on a no SpA Cresselia, it still has to watch as I set up two layers and Pain Split. In fact, it also sets up against Thunder Wave variants. You have it backwards really, since the only time Cresselia really "stops" Froslass from setting up a layer without fainting is when you use Substitute with the max SpA variant. The slow variant is bait and not going to stop Froslass regardless. It's not like saying something subjective here; look at the numbers.
And if I'm "always coming in on Calm Mind", as he stated, then great. I get 2 free layers of Spikes and can make it out in time for dinner.
tl;dr Froslass will stop any variant and set up on any min SpA variant. Max SpA variants can only really stop Froslass from Spiking if they use Substitute.
Also, the main reason Cresselia helps Froslass so much is because of the metagame shift it causes (stall is more prominent apparently).
You're not getting two free layers if you come in on CM and get hit by Psychic while you Taunt, especially considering you'll lose 25% coming in most of the time. In fact, I really haven't seen anyone try to use Froslass to come in on Cress, even when using the bulky spread, probably because everyone and their mother realizes it's a bad idea. Froslass isn't some invincible spike machine that auto-wins games, it still requires strategy and proper technique to get and actually keep those spikes up.
Hence why it's not BL.
/thread
Joking (on that being a complete argument, it's still true IMO) of course.
I'm serious about one thing, though, this discussion is getting more and more played out as it goes along, perhaps we should wait till we see who falls down this month and who gets voted out this test phase then re-evaluate Froslass because she isn't going anywhere.
While I clearly disagree with the first half of your post I do agree with the second. This is starting to resemble one of those "well if it does this and this and this then Froslass can/can't do this and this and this" arguments. Let's just wait and find out to see if Froslass is better or worse off without Cresselia?
I would LOVE for Cresselia to stay UU though, it would be perfect revenge against all of you people who didn't nom Froslass :D
Who on earth would want Cress to stay UU and that Froslass set I've been trying out made 3 people ragequit in a row.
I agree with Heysup in that there really isn't much more worth discussing about Froslass now until the next test. However, I would like to finish off with a point about Cresselia that is at least partially on-topic here.
Some people have talked about how oddball a SubCM Cress with max special attack is, but I can only interpret its rarity as either due to stubborn ignorance or the fact that most people haven't experimented with Cresselia as much as I have. Not only is it a viable set, it is one of the best, if not the best, set for Cresselia in the current metagame. The vast majority of Stall and Offensive teams alike have real trouble dealing with it. The former often relies on something silly like a healthy Haze Milotic to try and PP stall it, whilst ~95% of good offensive Pokemon are 1-2HKO'd without any boosts using Psychic and HP Ground, at least those that aren't otherwise setup bait. That's very impressive when you consider that very few Pokemon can so much as 2HKO Cress in the first place. So I certainly wouldn't pass off such a set as 'specialized' or whatever else.
Some people have talked about how oddball a SubCM Cress with max special attack is, but I can only interpret its rarity as either due to stubborn ignorance or the fact that most people haven't experimented with Cresselia as much as I have. Not only is it a viable set, it is one of the best, if not the best, set for Cresselia in the current metagame. The vast majority of Stall and Offensive teams alike have real trouble dealing with it. The former often relies on something silly like a healthy Haze Milotic to try and PP stall it, whilst ~95% of good offensive Pokemon are 1-2HKO'd without any boosts using Psychic and HP Ground, at least those that aren't otherwise setup bait. That's very impressive when you consider that very few Pokemon can so much as 2HKO Cress in the first place. So I certainly wouldn't pass off such a set as 'specialized' or whatever else.
Curious, why HP ground over Fighting? I guess it's the trade off between Drapion and Absol, then?
Drapion, Skuntank, Houndoom, Raikou and Spiritomb (I can hit it!!) mainly. Absol is one of the very few that I do worse against, but it also happens to be the frailest and shortest lasting of the lot. Even HP Ground does a good 35% unboosted. Also, every little helps in the stats department...