<reachzero> Heysup
<reachzero> feel free to post your Froslass paragraph in the Froslass thread
They aren't as good as Whistle's but here they are (warning, it is about 2400 words long :D):
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Froslass: BL
Bulky Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP/228 Def/32 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Ice Beam
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(I wouldn't dare use its other name)
Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond
- Ice Beam
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Obviously this is the most controversial Pokemon, since so many people have mixed feelings about it. I'm going to go through this as I went through it in my thread by answering a series of questions. I will focus more on the bulky set, but I will add a few points about how the Focus Sash set aids Froslass to become BL status.
I'm sure we both agree that if Froslass "easily" sets up Spikes, and if easy Spikes are proven to be broken, then Froslass is broken. So this means I need to answer these questions:
a) Can Froslass easily lay down Spikes?
ai) What makes Spikes easier to lay down for Froslass as opposed to other Spikers in UU.
b) Are Spikes easy to keep on the field?
bi) What does Froslass contribute to this?
c) Are easy Spikes "too good / broken"?
ci) Why are Spikes not broken / as good in OU?
If the answer to all of these questions are yes, then Froslass is clearly broken under the
support characteristic for letting other Pokemon sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little effort.
a) Can Froslass easily lay down Spikes?
Yes, I believe so. First, we need Froslass to be able to switch in, so lets see when Froslass can possibly switch in in the top 50.
Venusaur - On all defensive variants, and scarfers locked into Sludge Bomb or HP Ice.
Uxie
Ambipom - As long as it doesn't carry the uncommon move Payback
Gallade - As long as it doesn't carry Stone Edge
Registeel - isn't 2HKOed by Iron Head (45.48% - 54.23%). Stealth Rock is usually not up when Registeel is in because it is more often than not the team's Stealth Rocker.
Hitmontop
Spiritomb - without Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse
Donphan - Read: Registeel.
Clefable - without Fire Blast or Flamethrower
Azumarill - SubPunch variants or CB locked into any attack but Waterfall.
Claydol - Takes lol damage from Earthquake.
Chansey
Altaria
Toxicroak - without Stone Edge
Nidoqueen
Miltank
Tangrowth
Weezing - without Fire Blast or Flamethrower
This is 18 Pokemon out of the top 50. That's almost 40% of the most common Pokemon in the metagame, meaning Froslass will have ample opportunity to switch in, this is excluding revenge kills.
Let's look at the metagame again, and see which Pokemon Froslass sets up Spikes against. This means Froslass beats them, forces them out, or simply avoids a 2HKO. I'm making a case for an easy 2 Layers.
Bold means "Important"
Itallic means "prediction needed".
Red means it "sets up Spikes and beats".
Underlined means it can switch in and set up Spikes.
Altaria
Ambipom (Life Orb Pursuit does 49% max, and Froslass beats it with Pain Split + Ice Beam)
Azumarill (Locked into anything but Waterfall)
Blastoise
Chansey
Claydol
Clefable
Donphan
Drifblim
Dugtrio
Feraligatr
Gallade (Without Stone Edge)
Hitmontop
Honchkrow (pure prediction, I'll admit)
Lanturn
Ludicolo
Mesprit
Milotic
Miltank
Nidoqueen
Omastar
Registeel
Scyther
Slowbro
Spiritomb (As long as it isn't the Shadow Ball + Spooky Plate variant)
Tangrowth
Torterra
Umbreon
Uxie
Venusaur
Weezing
*note, I'm not considering less common sets unless I specify, for example I am not assuming Clefable is using Fire blast.
**I don't think I made any errors doing calcs with this list, but unless I miscalced at least half of these Pokemon, my point still stands.
Now, that's a hell of a lot of Pokemon to set up on, especially when it can set up Spikes and live to be a pseudo-Spinblocker. It also is important to note that there are basically zero Pokemon who can stop Froslass from switching out via Pursuit (Drapion can, I guess).
With this many Pokemon who can be set up on via revenge kill, or simply switching in, Froslass will easily get up Spikes.
ai) What makes Spikes easier to lay down for Froslass as opposed to other UU Spikers?
Well the most obvious difference is it's Speed, however I will address other aspects first.
IMO the most important thing that sets Froslass apart from other spikers is its typing, and consequently ability to switch in to incredibly important Pokemon. All of the other UU Spikers are part water-type, or have huge exploitable weakness. Froslass on the other hand easily switches into Pokemon such as #1 Venusaur, where as the other Spikers cannot. Most importantly, Froslass is able to switch into Rapid Spin, and just the Rapid Spinners in general. Being immune to Rapid Spin is absolutely the most important thing about Froslass, since the last thing you want is for your Spikes to be spun away as your setting them up. The fact that Froslass is immune to Rapid Spin allows it to set up Spikes on the Rapid Spinners. Froslass is also able to beat some of the Rapid Spinners once it switches in, due to not having as easily exploitable weaknesses (mainly to Ground, Grass, Fighting, and Electric).
The Speed difference is also impotant. A lot is outrun from base 55 (Omastar) and 70 (Cloyster) up to outspeeding neutral base 90s. This means Froslass will get an extra turn to set up Spikes against most Pokemon. For example, lets say a Omastar and Froslass need to switch into something like Venusaur who is using Sludge Bomb. Froslass could Taunt, Ice Beam, or whatever before Venusaur attacks again, while Omastar is completely forked. This is why the Speed is an important factor.
b) Are Spikes easy to keep on the field?
Again, I believe the answer to be yes. Let's take a look at our Rapid Spinners, Spin Blockers, and "Anti-Spin Pokemon". Anti-Spin Pokemon are what I like to call Pokemon such as Honchkrow, Moltres, Blaziken, etc. who absolutely destroy teams if they try to take a turn to use Rapid Spin.
Common Rapid Spinners:
Kabutops
Blastoise
Donphan
Hitmontop
Claydol
Ghosts:
Rotom
Mismagius
Spiritomb
Dusklops
Froslass
Anti-Spin Pokemon (again, Pokemon who just won't give you time to Spin against):
Blaziken - 2HKOes all of the Rapid Spinners easily.
Gallade - give it a turn to set up and gg. It forces all Spinners out in this way.
Honchkrow - we all know what happens when Honchkrow is given a free turn to attack.
Mismagius - Yes, a Spin Blocker that is dangerous as hell to give a turn to set up. Nasty Plot Shadow Ball OHKOes all of the Spinners except Blastoise who is OHKOed by Thunderbolt.
Moltres - 2HKOes all of the Spinners.
Nidoking - 2HKOes all of the Spinners.
Sceptile - - 2HKOes all of the Spinners.
Venusaur - 2HKOes all of the Spinners
Etc.......
Now, even if you let Froslass die for some reason, you as long as you carry an anti-Spin Pokemon (it's common to carry a couple; they are actually good Pokemon), you shouldn't have trouble with your opponent's Rapid Spinners.
In addition to this, what's stopping you from using another Ghost? I found that Double Ghost strategies were incredibly useful. I used a bunch of them, and they fit right into any type of team (for example, bulky Taunt WoW Misdreavus is unbelievable on balance or stall, while Specs or NP Misdreavus is awesome on Offense).
bi) What does Froslass contribute to this?
In the possible situation that Froslass is weakened, it can still be used as a "Block Rapid Spin-Free" card. What I mean by this, is that it has a one-time use for Spin Blocking (at least) if it is weakened. Since Froslass is fast, it can actually heal back up, Taunt, Ice Beam, or set up another layer of Spikes if your opponent decides to actually Rapid Spin instead of using an attack to KO the weakened Froslass.
If Froslass isn't weakened, it actually beats 3 out of the 5 common rapid spinners due to Taunt, Pain Split, and it's STAB Ice Beam (it takes 59% max from Donphan's Earthquake, meaning it can Pain Split to survive another Earthquake and put Donphan in Ice Beam's OHKO range even with Stealth Rock).
All in all, if you don't want Spikes to be removed from the field, they usually won't be, and Froslass definitely helps with this.
c) Are easy Spikes "too good"?
Again, the answer (imo) is yes. There are so many Pokemon that are simply near impossible to stop once Spikes are on the field. Pokemon sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little effort in common battle conditions (easy spikes = creating a common battle condition, where as not "easy" spikes aren't as common). For example, Moltres, Honchkrow, Blaziken, Venusaur, Magmortar, Swellow, Gallade, Raikou, Drapion, Mismagius, Azumarill and Sceptile, anything with Rock Polish, etc (I could list every sweeper in UU I guess :D) are near-impossible to reliably stop. Essentially, anything that's fast and hits decently hard, anything with strong priority, or anything that can boost it's speed and hit hard.
Lets start by looking at Moltres:
Initially, Moltres has quite a few solid and reliable switch ins (as in, they can switch in and force Moltres out) to it. Lets take a look at those Pokemon in the top 50 + Regirock (#51):
- Arcanine
- Raikou
- Milotic
- Umbreon
- Clefable
- Azumarill
- Feraligatr
- Blastoise
- Chansey
- Altaria
- Regirock
11 reliable switch-ins with just SR. Not bad. Now let's see how many of them can switch into an Air Slash or Fire Blast with Spikes:
- Azumarill*
- Altaria**
- Chansey***
*Azumarill loses when it switches into HP Grass: (63.34% - 74.81%). 63% minimum + 25 Spikes + 12.5 Stealth Rock = 100.5% = OHKOed 100% of the time when it switches into HP Grass.
**Altaria can't do shit to Moltres.
***Chansey
barely survives.
Fire Blast vs Chansey: 31.98% average damage (I rounded to 32%)
32 (Fire Blast) + 25 (Spikes) + 12.5 (Stealth Rock) - 6.25 = 63.25% HP. This means Chansey will survive with at most 6.75% (30% min from Fire Blast) which is basically a Stealth Rock switch in.
This removed a ridiculous amount of counters, and the counters that are left are shaky at best. Very shaky. Moltres can essentially sweep with little to no effort with Spikes in play.
Lets look at Swellow next, because it is another common sweeper.
Let's look at the Pokemon who survive a Facade or a Brave Bird without SR/Spikes:
- Aggron
- Altaria
- Arcanine
- Azumarill
- Blastoise
- Claydol
- Donphan
- Drapion (with some investment)
- Kabutops
- Nidoqueen
- Mesprit
- Milotic
- Miltank
- Moltres
- Omastar
- Regirock
- Registeel
- Rhyperior
- Rotom
- Slowbro
- Spiritomb
- Steelix
- Umbreon
- Weezing
That's a fair amount of checks, making it difficult to sweep with Swellow (especially when compared to Moltres). However, let's add Spikes and Stealth Rock into the mix.
- Aggron
- Claydol
- Donphan (Survives with 10% assuming min damage)
- Kabutops
- Mesprit (bulky variants)
- Milotic (Survives with 10% assuming min damage)
- Miltank
- Omastar
- Regirock
- Registeel
- Rhyperior
- Rotom
- Steelix
- Slowbro
- Weezing
Now that durastically reduced Swellows 1-time counters, but worse yet, Swellow has U-turn.
It is unrealistic to think that these Pokemon can survive 1-2 U-turns while taking up to 37.5% every time they switch in and wall Swellow. Lets look at which Pokemon are alright enough to switch into U-turn once, and Facade after that (meaning they need to survive Facade after losing HP from 2 rounds of residual damage (6.5%, 53.125-75% (depending on Stealth Rock damage and Spike damage)) + U-turn damage:
- Aggron
- Registeel
- Rotom
- Weezing
Four Pokemon are left from 24 original counters, who would still otherwise be standing after residual damage + U-turn.
Yes, Swellow will be at 50% from Stealth Rock damage, but we all know that Swellow can easily sweep with that little health since it won't be taking any hits.
Now, these sweepers 'sweeping with little effort' would be situational of Froslass didn't provide "easy Spikes". The fact that Froslass reliably, and easily will set up Spikes means that Swellow and Moltres are by definition sweeping with little effort in common battle conditions.
This is why "easy" Spikes aren't merely "annoying", they are broken.
ci) How is this different from OU?
Well this is purely logic and theory, since I don't actually play OU much, however it is quite easy to see the difference when looking at the two above Pokemon's counters list. The difference between a counter list for a Pokemon such as Swellow or Moltres as opposed to something like DD Mence, Metagross, or SD Lucario, is that the UU sweepers' counters are grounded, while the OU sweepers' counters are often not at all.
For example, OU has Pokemon such as Skarmory (the big one), Bronzong, Zapdos, Gyarados, etc as defensive checks, while UU's only Levitating defensive checks are...Altaria, Uxie, and Claydol, and none of which are any bit as good in UU as the above OU Pokemon are in OU.
Another thing is that OU has much much more reliable Pursuiters and Rapid Spinners, thus OU teams have a much easier time getting rid of Spikes. For example, Rotom-A and Gengar are both easily demolished by Pokemon such as Scizor and Tyranitar with Pursuit. Starmie is also an incredible asset to OU, because of its excellent Speed and ability to KO every Ghost in the game (unlike Donphan, UU's 'best' spinner, who can't 2HKO Froslass, Spiritomb, Dusclops, etc).
And finally, I don't think it is remotely as easy to set up Spikes in OU as it is in UU. There are not many Pokemon in OU who are actually slower than the Spikers. Froslass and Qwilfish are both excellent quick Spikers in UU, and Skarmory and Forey are slow. The reasons Froslass and Qwilfish only function well in UU are because they (a) are actually faster than most of the Pokemon in the metagame and (b) actually have decent defenses to Spike against Pokemon in UU.
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Fuck Froslass :(