Froslass - Ice Queen

[Heysup]

So if we tested Froslass in isolation from Snover (i.e. test the current metagame with Snover removed), we could see if this really is the case. After all, in order for a strategy to be broken, it has to be 'abusable'. So in fact you are wrong here, Hail does indeed have to be a viable move in order to declare Froslass broken under it. It makes no sense to ban a Pokemon for a strategy that can't be used successfully.

Not really. It still fits the support characteristic under Hail for 5 turns. It does exactly what it does on a perma-hail team.

Look at it this way: Hail is used almost "only" with Froslass. Why is this? Because Froslass is broken, at least guaranteed under hail. It's not the same for Walrein, because Walrein isn't usable (effectively anyway) outside of Hail. Helping Froslass fulfill the support characteristic isn't a characteristic of BL, last I checked anyway.

Froslass is the Pokemon that is broken on a hail team. I don't even believe there is a reason to discuss whether or not Snover or Froslass should be banned, because Snover is not even remotely resembling any sort of BL characteristic.

 

[Stagnant]

Snover is not even remotely resembling any sort of BL characteristic.

Snover's ability starts Perma-Hail storm, yes, permanent Hail until another Pokemon changes it. So with that in mind... I couldn't image a few Pokemon who would benefit or not benefit from that.

 

[MagicMaster87]

It is meant to show how such reasoning can lead to one Pokemon being labelled BL over another as a result of the order in which they appear in the metagame, not just based on the state of the current metagame.

If Froslass suddenly enters the UU metagame, as it has, then the metagame would have exactly the same final state if it turned out that Snover was the one being introduced, with Froslass already there. Any other effects are psychological, not actual. If no Pokemon are broken in either case prior to the inclusions, then does it make sense that the recent inclusion is always the one branded BL? I don’t see why, as the metagame is exactly the same in either case, and herein lies the problem with such reasoning.

You can look at it as analogous to the mathematical concept known as commutativity. The question is this: should exactly the same conclusion always be drawn given a certain subset of variables that constitute the metagame (commutative), or should the order in which said variables happen to have assembled have a bearing on the conclusion reached (non-commutative)? To say that Hail isn’t broken without Froslass has nothing to do with the current issue, and cannot be used to justify the banishment of Froslass in particular, because the same statement would also be true in the opposite scenario with Snover.

Hmmm, I suppose you do have a point. I guess it just comes down to our personal opinion of whether Froslass is broken or not outside of Hail. If she is, then she's the one who needs to be banned. If not, then it ought to be Snover who is banned for providing her the necessary support to become broken.

 

[Heysup]

The "support" in question is not the same "support" as the "support characteristic" implies. That one of the biggest errors in this argument I think. The support characteristic talks about sweeping.

There is no BL characteristic stating "A Pokemon is BL if it supports another pokemon so that it can support another Pokemon to the point that it...etc" heh.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Most of what Froslass does in a Hail team is stall, however, at least the ones I've seen. Even though she does set up Spikes, I've rarely seen her switch out afterwards unless she dies. And as you said yourself (can't remember if it was in this thread or the Hail thread), those characteristics are more-so guidelines than flat-out rules that must be strictly adhered to 100%. So it shouldn't be so farfetched to say that "Snover is BL because the support it provides allows Froslass to stall out a majority of the metagame." Isn't its ability (i.e., the "support") one of the main reasons we banned Abomasnow? It would be the same thing here, even if Snover can't function as well on its own.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The "support" in question is not the same "support" as the "support characteristic" implies. That one of the biggest errors in this argument I think. The support characteristic talks about sweeping.

There is no BL characteristic stating "A Pokemon is BL if it supports another pokemon so that it can support another Pokemon to the point that it...etc" heh.

You are taking the wording of the Support Characteristic far too literally. A Pokemon can qualify for the Support Characteristic if the first-hand support that it provides is the direct cause of another Pokemon fitting one of the characteristics where they wouldn't otherwise. The exact wording is very awkward and misleading I admit, but I thought that everyone had the common sense to see through that and put it in the proper context. Apparently not.

Or are you deliberately exploiting that literal loophole in order to try and force your biased opinion across? Look at it this way; if it was just down to me, I'd sooner ban Froslass. But do I think I have the required experience and authority on this matter to make my single opinion absolute? Of course not! I have the decency to openly admit that at least some of my feelings towards the matter are not in-keeping with the required etiquette of the Suspect process; feelings such as "I hate that annoying bitch!" etc. You would do well to learn to apply the same level of discretion.

 

[Heysup]

It's not a matter of taking the support characteristic too literally. I was just trying to point out that Snover does not even remotely resemble any of these guidelines that we call characteristics. Just because they are guidelines, it does not mean we should completely and utterly ignore them.

The support it supplies for Froslass is minimal. It grants it 20% evasion, and weakens many of Froslass's non-hail counters very slightly. It's icing on the cake. Snover doesn't support Froslass to the point that it fulfills any of the characteristics it wasn't already fulfilling / almost fulfilling.

At MagicMaster:

Froslass in now way stalls a good portion of the metagame. By your logic, we should ban Walrein, because Snover makes it stall a good portion of the metagame.

Snover, Walrein, and Hail for that matter aren't the reasons Froslass is broken in hail. Froslass is broken in hail because it helps it do what it does best slightly better.

And Lemmiwinks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assume_good_faith

 

[MagicMaster87]

At MagicMaster:

Froslass in now way stalls a good portion of the metagame. By your logic, we should ban Walrein, because Snover makes it stall a good portion of the metagame.

I don't see why she can't run a good stalling set. Sub/Spikes/Confuse Ray/Blizzard or Ice Beam @ Leftovers with at least Toxic Spikes support seems like a pretty potent set to me. She can afford to run Spikes, or possibly even Taunt, over Protect since unlike Walrein, Snow Cloak and confusion should give her plenty of free turns to set up further decimation of the opponent's team or hit them with a STAB attack to speed up the stalling process (I say should because there's always that small chance that all their attacks will land anyways). Her blistering Speed also ensures that she can attempt to start stalling against more Pokemon than Walrein can.

She doesn't have to continuously Sub/Protect and wait for Toxic Spikes to do all the work, and thanks to Snow Cloak she doesn't have any true 100% counters aside from Taunt/Encore users (which aren't a problem if you opt for Taunt over Spikes) which, in my opinion, makes her all the more dangerous. Or would this not be considered a stalling set?

 

[Heysup]

Why can't something just attack her 6 times and KO her without her being able to do anything back besides Sub?

Also, started a poll at request of BnE.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Why can't something just attack her 6 times and KO her without her being able to do anything back besides Sub?

Also, started a poll at request of BnE.

Did you not read my post? The chances of landing two hits in a row with a 100% accurate attack after Confuse Ray in the Hail is only 16%, let alone 6 (less than half a percent). That's not taking into consideration Confusion ending early, I admit, but I'm not enough of a math wizard to have the patience to figure that out.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Yeah sorry I had the poll closed. Discussion of the subject is allowed, but polling in a way like this is just completely nonsensical.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Yeah sorry I had the poll closed. Discussion of the subject is allowed, but polling in a way like this is just completely nonsensical.

Why exactly is it nonsensical? Just curious...

 

[Heysup]

Did you not read my post? The chances of landing two hits in a row with a 100% accurate attack after Confuse Ray in the Hail is only 16%, let alone 6 (less than half a percent). That's not taking into consideration Confusion ending early, I admit, but I'm not enough of a math wizard to have the patience to figure that out.

Why can't I just substitute and hit you with any Substitute sweeper (Raikou and Missy for example)? Why can't I just hit you with Slowbro? There are lots of Pokemon who are flat out not effected by this, plus you are completely left open to Roar and Foresight.

Even if that set is really good, it doesn't stall.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Why can't I just substitute and hit you with any Substitute sweeper (Raikou and Missy for example)? Why can't I just hit you with Slowbro? There are lots of Pokemon who are flat out not effected by this, plus you are completely left open to Roar and Foresight.

Even if that set is really good, it doesn't stall.

Froslass can outspeed Mismagius, I don't think it would need nearly as much bulk as Proslass when it's supposed to be dodging attacks. Also, Foresight doesn't affect Confusion and if Froslass has Taunt you won't be able to use it nor Roar. Slowbro is the only commonly used Pokemon that is immune to Confusion, and yes it does wall the set, but that's why I did mention Toxic Spikes support, to take care of stuff like this. Registeel is a problem as well, so you'd probably want to include something that can take care of it (Nidoqueen could do it, I suppose).

Also, if it doesn't stall, then what does it do? It seems more stallish than supporting to me (especially if you don't run Spikes), and it's definitely not a sweeper. I'm actually wondering what you would classify it as, not trying to argue this.

 

[Heysup]

Froslass can outspeed Mismagius, I don't think it would need nearly as much bulk as Proslass when it's supposed to be dodging attacks. Also, Foresight doesn't affect Confusion and if Froslass has Taunt you won't be able to use it nor Roar. Slowbro is the only commonly used Pokemon that is immune to Confusion, and yes it does wall the set, but that's why I did mention Toxic Spikes support, to take care of stuff like this. Registeel is a problem as well, so you'd probably want to include something that can take care of it (Nidoqueen could do it, I suppose).

I love when Pokemon learn 5 moves :/. Anyway, I'm not arguing against the viability of the set, I'm just saying that it isn't doing anything that another set would do.

Also, if it doesn't stall, then what does it do? It seems more stallish than supporting to me (especially if you don't run Spikes), and it's definitely not a sweeper. I'm actually wondering what you would classify it as, not trying to argue this.

You stated that it was running Spikes / CR / Sub / Blizzard. So that would definitely mean it isn't stalling, but attempting to buy extra turns to set Spikes up, and possibly take out other Pokemon before it faints. Essentially the same thing as any other Froslass, but slightly more risk/reward.

 

[MagicMaster87]

I love when Pokemon learn 5 moves :/. Anyway, I'm not arguing against the viability of the set, I'm just saying that it isn't doing anything that another set would do.

You stated that it was running Spikes / CR / Sub / Blizzard. So that would definitely mean it isn't stalling, but attempting to buy extra turns to set Spikes up, and possibly take out other Pokemon before it faints. Essentially the same thing as any other Froslass, but slightly more risk/reward.

I love it when people don't read entire posts. I said in the post mentioning the set that Taunt could be run over Spikes (well, Protect actually, but they're all the same moveslot). It doesn't seem to me that Spikes are as crucial to a Hail team as Toxic Spikes are (T. Spikes will actually let you stall out almost anything with Lefties or recovery, whereas Spikes only speed up the stalling process by a few turns), so if you want you can run a better stalling set than even Walrein has, imo. Of course, I've never actually used a Hail team (I've played against several, though, which is where I got this set from), so if I'm wrong about Spikes vs T.Spikes, then this entire post is pretty moot.

 

[Yuggles]

I agree with Froslass being ridiculous in Hail, outside of it she's annoying but not good enough to be banned.

Of course, I don't like to use Froslass, and I also don't like hail teams too much either, so the Snover vs. Froslass argument is a win-win situation for me if one of them gets banned (and I think one of them should be).

 

[Ero-Sennin]

I do think Froslass is broken.
Froslass has an incredible speed, being able to outspeed and revenge kill a lot of pokemon in UU. It also can use Taunt... with its speed he could taunt other leads easily. That makes a much better lead than the other spiker leads which are all slow. Also, Froslass has access to other amazing moves like trick and destiny bond. It's probably very easy to switch because of his resistance against bug and poison + his immunity against normal and fighting.

 

[Lite]

Frosslass is a decent spiker, and it's ability works well partnering with Abomasnow

 

[whistle]

<reachzero> whistle
<reachzero> I highly recommend that you post your Froslass paragraph in the Froslass thread

personally I don't think this is a "great paragraph", but I do think the ideas in it are good (and reachzero asked oh-so-nicely) so I'm posting it. if I procrastinated less when I wrote this I probably would have elaborated more on a few of my points with examples and refuted more counterarguments directly.

Froslass is still a suspect in the next testing round so maybe some discussion will come out of this!

(suggestions welcome)

---

Froslass: BL

Froslass @ Leftovers (Timid) – Snow Cloak
248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Pain Split

A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep.

I think the first question to answer when looking at a spiker is to determine how consistently spikes are on the opposite side of the field while the Pokemon in question is on a team. This includes determining how easily said Pokemon sets up spikes and how well it prevents spikes from getting spun away. This includes the Pokemon’s bulk and resistances (can it stick around to set up multiple layers?), speed and typing (how easily does it set up the first layer?), and typing and movepool (can it stop rapid spinners easily?).

I think the “obvious” second question of how well these spikes make it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep is not an additional burden. The reason is because if there was a Pokemon that had an ability that autostacked three layers of spikes whenever it came into play, it would probably get banned extremely quickly. Whether there are no layers or three (or any number in between) layers of spikes on the field at a given point in time is what determines how large of an impact the spikes have on the battle. This means the question of “how broken are spikes” is really just another way to rephrase the first question; how “broken” spikes are is a direct function of how easily the Pokemon setting up the spikes can get them onto the field and keep them there. Of course the question of “are spikes good” isn’t completely irrelevant, but I don’t think answering the question either way is helpful at all for a tiering discussion because either you’re saying “yeah man three layers kills everything” or “obviously one layer is better than nothing”.

The overarching reason I think Froslass is broken is that it works exceptionally well on offensive teams by setting up early spikes and keeping the momentum in the mid-game. It is distinctly different from other spikers like Omastar or Cloyster because of its high speed and typing. Its typing doesn’t give it too many resistances but also doesn’t give it many common weaknesses. When a Pokemon has a strong super-effective attack, it’s usually glaringly obvious, which gives Froslass more stability when setting up spikes. Omastars and Cloysters can’t always be sure whether Uxie, Mesprit, Arcanine, or even Ambipom are or are not carrying surprise Grass attacks. What the higher speed means in practice is that Froslass becomes a much better early game spiker for offensive teams because it can suicide its HP for extra layers when needed. The lost HP doesn’t matter too much because its access to Pain Split coupled with its high speed means 3HKO moves are setup bait. The speed just gives Froslass much more flexibility when setting up spikes since it means you partially have the ability to control how many layers you set up and it doesn’t all depend on what Pokemon your opponent has out. Its access to taunt is also invaluable for an offensive team, because it can stop a DD Feraligatr (for example) from setting up while the same Pokemon would love to take advantage of an Omastar.

Froslass’s main advantage over every other spiker in UU is its Ghost subtype, which allows it to function as a spinblocker even though it’s not even close to the bulkiest Ghost in UU. Froslass fits best on offensive teams that set up layers early in the game; because of the fast-paced nature of these games, spinners usually don’t have enough HP to come in more than once or twice (due to attacks and residual damage). This means Froslass doesn’t *need* to stay alive the entire match—it just needs to stay alive until the spinner is under 50%. Even with a bulky spread, Froslass plays suicidally—it uses its “bulk” to set up a few layers, perhaps at the expense of 50% of its HP, then sacrifices itself later to ensure spinners can’t spin. The Ghost typing also means offensive teams have an “extra” space when it comes to choosing team members.

So Froslass has more control over how spikes go up and stay up than other spikers. Why does that matter? The majority of the UU metagame is grounded which makes spikes inherently more dangerous than in the OU metagame which is littered with Fliers and Levitators. More specifically, there are a few Pokemon with counters which are almost all grounded—like Raikou or Swellow—which means spikes support helps them wear their counters down extremely easily.

There’s no single quality about Froslass that really jumps out as “broken”; however, a combination of its early game flexibility and momentum setting ability and the inherent danger of spikes makes it BL.

 

[Heysup]

<reachzero> Heysup
<reachzero> feel free to post your Froslass paragraph in the Froslass thread

They aren't as good as Whistle's but here they are (warning, it is about 2400 words long :D):
_________________________________________________________________________
Froslass: BL

Bulky Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP/228 Def/32 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Ice Beam
---
(I wouldn't dare use its other name)

Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond
- Ice Beam
---

Obviously this is the most controversial Pokemon, since so many people have mixed feelings about it. I'm going to go through this as I went through it in my thread by answering a series of questions. I will focus more on the bulky set, but I will add a few points about how the Focus Sash set aids Froslass to become BL status.

I'm sure we both agree that if Froslass "easily" sets up Spikes, and if easy Spikes are proven to be broken, then Froslass is broken. So this means I need to answer these questions:

a) Can Froslass easily lay down Spikes?

ai) What makes Spikes easier to lay down for Froslass as opposed to other Spikers in UU.

b) Are Spikes easy to keep on the field?

bi) What does Froslass contribute to this?

c) Are easy Spikes "too good / broken"?

ci) Why are Spikes not broken / as good in OU?

If the answer to all of these questions are yes, then Froslass is clearly broken under the support characteristic for letting other Pokemon sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little effort.

a) Can Froslass easily lay down Spikes?

Yes, I believe so. First, we need Froslass to be able to switch in, so lets see when Froslass can possibly switch in in the top 50.

Venusaur - On all defensive variants, and scarfers locked into Sludge Bomb or HP Ice.
Uxie
Ambipom - As long as it doesn't carry the uncommon move Payback
Gallade - As long as it doesn't carry Stone Edge
Registeel - isn't 2HKOed by Iron Head (45.48% - 54.23%). Stealth Rock is usually not up when Registeel is in because it is more often than not the team's Stealth Rocker.
Hitmontop
Spiritomb - without Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse
Donphan - Read: Registeel.
Clefable - without Fire Blast or Flamethrower
Azumarill - SubPunch variants or CB locked into any attack but Waterfall.
Claydol - Takes lol damage from Earthquake.
Chansey
Altaria
Toxicroak - without Stone Edge
Nidoqueen
Miltank
Tangrowth
Weezing - without Fire Blast or Flamethrower

This is 18 Pokemon out of the top 50. That's almost 40% of the most common Pokemon in the metagame, meaning Froslass will have ample opportunity to switch in, this is excluding revenge kills.

Let's look at the metagame again, and see which Pokemon Froslass sets up Spikes against. This means Froslass beats them, forces them out, or simply avoids a 2HKO. I'm making a case for an easy 2 Layers.

Bold means "Important"
Itallic means "prediction needed".
Red means it "sets up Spikes and beats".
Underlined means it can switch in and set up Spikes.

Altaria
Ambipom (Life Orb Pursuit does 49% max, and Froslass beats it with Pain Split + Ice Beam)
Azumarill (Locked into anything but Waterfall)
Blastoise
Chansey
Claydol
Clefable
Donphan
Drifblim
Dugtrio
Feraligatr
Gallade (Without Stone Edge)
Hitmontop
Honchkrow (pure prediction, I'll admit)
Lanturn
Ludicolo
Mesprit
Milotic
Miltank
Nidoqueen
Omastar
Registeel
Scyther
Slowbro
Spiritomb (As long as it isn't the Shadow Ball + Spooky Plate variant)
Tangrowth
Torterra
Umbreon
Uxie
Venusaur
Weezing

*note, I'm not considering less common sets unless I specify, for example I am not assuming Clefable is using Fire blast.

**I don't think I made any errors doing calcs with this list, but unless I miscalced at least half of these Pokemon, my point still stands.

Now, that's a hell of a lot of Pokemon to set up on, especially when it can set up Spikes and live to be a pseudo-Spinblocker. It also is important to note that there are basically zero Pokemon who can stop Froslass from switching out via Pursuit (Drapion can, I guess).

With this many Pokemon who can be set up on via revenge kill, or simply switching in, Froslass will easily get up Spikes.
ai) What makes Spikes easier to lay down for Froslass as opposed to other UU Spikers?

Well the most obvious difference is it's Speed, however I will address other aspects first.

IMO the most important thing that sets Froslass apart from other spikers is its typing, and consequently ability to switch in to incredibly important Pokemon. All of the other UU Spikers are part water-type, or have huge exploitable weakness. Froslass on the other hand easily switches into Pokemon such as #1 Venusaur, where as the other Spikers cannot. Most importantly, Froslass is able to switch into Rapid Spin, and just the Rapid Spinners in general. Being immune to Rapid Spin is absolutely the most important thing about Froslass, since the last thing you want is for your Spikes to be spun away as your setting them up. The fact that Froslass is immune to Rapid Spin allows it to set up Spikes on the Rapid Spinners. Froslass is also able to beat some of the Rapid Spinners once it switches in, due to not having as easily exploitable weaknesses (mainly to Ground, Grass, Fighting, and Electric).

The Speed difference is also impotant. A lot is outrun from base 55 (Omastar) and 70 (Cloyster) up to outspeeding neutral base 90s. This means Froslass will get an extra turn to set up Spikes against most Pokemon. For example, lets say a Omastar and Froslass need to switch into something like Venusaur who is using Sludge Bomb. Froslass could Taunt, Ice Beam, or whatever before Venusaur attacks again, while Omastar is completely forked. This is why the Speed is an important factor.

b) Are Spikes easy to keep on the field?

Again, I believe the answer to be yes. Let's take a look at our Rapid Spinners, Spin Blockers, and "Anti-Spin Pokemon". Anti-Spin Pokemon are what I like to call Pokemon such as Honchkrow, Moltres, Blaziken, etc. who absolutely destroy teams if they try to take a turn to use Rapid Spin.

Common Rapid Spinners:

Kabutops
Blastoise
Donphan
Hitmontop
Claydol

Ghosts:

Rotom
Mismagius
Spiritomb
Dusklops
Froslass

Anti-Spin Pokemon (again, Pokemon who just won't give you time to Spin against):

Blaziken - 2HKOes all of the Rapid Spinners easily.
Gallade - give it a turn to set up and gg. It forces all Spinners out in this way.
Honchkrow - we all know what happens when Honchkrow is given a free turn to attack.
Mismagius - Yes, a Spin Blocker that is dangerous as hell to give a turn to set up. Nasty Plot Shadow Ball OHKOes all of the Spinners except Blastoise who is OHKOed by Thunderbolt.
Moltres - 2HKOes all of the Spinners.
Nidoking - 2HKOes all of the Spinners.
Sceptile - - 2HKOes all of the Spinners.
Venusaur - 2HKOes all of the Spinners
Etc.......

Now, even if you let Froslass die for some reason, you as long as you carry an anti-Spin Pokemon (it's common to carry a couple; they are actually good Pokemon), you shouldn't have trouble with your opponent's Rapid Spinners.

In addition to this, what's stopping you from using another Ghost? I found that Double Ghost strategies were incredibly useful. I used a bunch of them, and they fit right into any type of team (for example, bulky Taunt WoW Misdreavus is unbelievable on balance or stall, while Specs or NP Misdreavus is awesome on Offense).

bi) What does Froslass contribute to this?

In the possible situation that Froslass is weakened, it can still be used as a "Block Rapid Spin-Free" card. What I mean by this, is that it has a one-time use for Spin Blocking (at least) if it is weakened. Since Froslass is fast, it can actually heal back up, Taunt, Ice Beam, or set up another layer of Spikes if your opponent decides to actually Rapid Spin instead of using an attack to KO the weakened Froslass.

If Froslass isn't weakened, it actually beats 3 out of the 5 common rapid spinners due to Taunt, Pain Split, and it's STAB Ice Beam (it takes 59% max from Donphan's Earthquake, meaning it can Pain Split to survive another Earthquake and put Donphan in Ice Beam's OHKO range even with Stealth Rock).

All in all, if you don't want Spikes to be removed from the field, they usually won't be, and Froslass definitely helps with this.


c) Are easy Spikes "too good"?

Again, the answer (imo) is yes. There are so many Pokemon that are simply near impossible to stop once Spikes are on the field. Pokemon sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little effort in common battle conditions (easy spikes = creating a common battle condition, where as not "easy" spikes aren't as common). For example, Moltres, Honchkrow, Blaziken, Venusaur, Magmortar, Swellow, Gallade, Raikou, Drapion, Mismagius, Azumarill and Sceptile, anything with Rock Polish, etc (I could list every sweeper in UU I guess :D) are near-impossible to reliably stop. Essentially, anything that's fast and hits decently hard, anything with strong priority, or anything that can boost it's speed and hit hard.

Lets start by looking at Moltres:

Initially, Moltres has quite a few solid and reliable switch ins (as in, they can switch in and force Moltres out) to it. Lets take a look at those Pokemon in the top 50 + Regirock (#51):

1. Arcanine
2. Raikou
3. Milotic
4. Umbreon
5. Clefable
6. Azumarill
7. Feraligatr
8. Blastoise
9. Chansey
10. Altaria
11. Regirock

11 reliable switch-ins with just SR. Not bad. Now let's see how many of them can switch into an Air Slash or Fire Blast with Spikes:

1. Azumarill*
2. Altaria**
3. Chansey***

*Azumarill loses when it switches into HP Grass: (63.34% - 74.81%). 63% minimum + 25 Spikes + 12.5 Stealth Rock = 100.5% = OHKOed 100% of the time when it switches into HP Grass.

**Altaria can't do shit to Moltres.

***Chansey barely survives.

Fire Blast vs Chansey: 31.98% average damage (I rounded to 32%)

32 (Fire Blast) + 25 (Spikes) + 12.5 (Stealth Rock) - 6.25 = 63.25% HP. This means Chansey will survive with at most 6.75% (30% min from Fire Blast) which is basically a Stealth Rock switch in.

This removed a ridiculous amount of counters, and the counters that are left are shaky at best. Very shaky. Moltres can essentially sweep with little to no effort with Spikes in play.

Lets look at Swellow next, because it is another common sweeper.

Let's look at the Pokemon who survive a Facade or a Brave Bird without SR/Spikes:

1. Aggron
2. Altaria
3. Arcanine
4. Azumarill
5. Blastoise
6. Claydol
7. Donphan
8. Drapion (with some investment)
9. Kabutops
10. Nidoqueen
11. Mesprit
12. Milotic
13. Miltank
14. Moltres
15. Omastar
16. Regirock
17. Registeel
18. Rhyperior
19. Rotom
20. Slowbro
21. Spiritomb
22. Steelix
23. Umbreon
24. Weezing

That's a fair amount of checks, making it difficult to sweep with Swellow (especially when compared to Moltres). However, let's add Spikes and Stealth Rock into the mix.

1. Aggron
2. Claydol
3. Donphan (Survives with 10% assuming min damage)
4. Kabutops
5. Mesprit (bulky variants)
6. Milotic (Survives with 10% assuming min damage)
7. Miltank
8. Omastar
9. Regirock
10. Registeel
11. Rhyperior
12. Rotom
13. Steelix
14. Slowbro
15. Weezing

Now that durastically reduced Swellows 1-time counters, but worse yet, Swellow has U-turn.

It is unrealistic to think that these Pokemon can survive 1-2 U-turns while taking up to 37.5% every time they switch in and wall Swellow. Lets look at which Pokemon are alright enough to switch into U-turn once, and Facade after that (meaning they need to survive Facade after losing HP from 2 rounds of residual damage (6.5%, 53.125-75% (depending on Stealth Rock damage and Spike damage)) + U-turn damage:

1. Aggron
2. Registeel
3. Rotom
4. Weezing

Four Pokemon are left from 24 original counters, who would still otherwise be standing after residual damage + U-turn.

Yes, Swellow will be at 50% from Stealth Rock damage, but we all know that Swellow can easily sweep with that little health since it won't be taking any hits.

Now, these sweepers 'sweeping with little effort' would be situational of Froslass didn't provide "easy Spikes". The fact that Froslass reliably, and easily will set up Spikes means that Swellow and Moltres are by definition sweeping with little effort in common battle conditions.

This is why "easy" Spikes aren't merely "annoying", they are broken.

ci) How is this different from OU?

Well this is purely logic and theory, since I don't actually play OU much, however it is quite easy to see the difference when looking at the two above Pokemon's counters list. The difference between a counter list for a Pokemon such as Swellow or Moltres as opposed to something like DD Mence, Metagross, or SD Lucario, is that the UU sweepers' counters are grounded, while the OU sweepers' counters are often not at all.

For example, OU has Pokemon such as Skarmory (the big one), Bronzong, Zapdos, Gyarados, etc as defensive checks, while UU's only Levitating defensive checks are...Altaria, Uxie, and Claydol, and none of which are any bit as good in UU as the above OU Pokemon are in OU.

Another thing is that OU has much much more reliable Pursuiters and Rapid Spinners, thus OU teams have a much easier time getting rid of Spikes. For example, Rotom-A and Gengar are both easily demolished by Pokemon such as Scizor and Tyranitar with Pursuit. Starmie is also an incredible asset to OU, because of its excellent Speed and ability to KO every Ghost in the game (unlike Donphan, UU's 'best' spinner, who can't 2HKO Froslass, Spiritomb, Dusclops, etc).

And finally, I don't think it is remotely as easy to set up Spikes in OU as it is in UU. There are not many Pokemon in OU who are actually slower than the Spikers. Froslass and Qwilfish are both excellent quick Spikers in UU, and Skarmory and Forey are slow. The reasons Froslass and Qwilfish only function well in UU are because they (a) are actually faster than most of the Pokemon in the metagame and (b) actually have decent defenses to Spike against Pokemon in UU.
_________________________________________________________________________

Fuck Froslass :(

 

[FlareBlitz]

Heysup, I also want to add that if Froslass is in hail, it becomes substantially more difficult to stop, to the point where it is almost guaranteed to set up full spikes and probably paralyze some shit too. See this set:

Froslass @ Leftovers/Brightpowder
Timid/Bold nature
248 HP/Enough speed to outrun +base 80s or 90s/Rest into DEF
-Substitute
-Thunder Wave/Blizzard
-Spikes
-Pain Split/Taunt/Blizzard

The way this works is simple. Froslass needs to come in, scare something out (easy with all the Venu running around) and set up a sub. It then either paralyzes whatever comes in and just sets up subs until the opponent misses (high chance). At this point, even 100% accurate now drop to having a mere 60% chance of hitting it, and if you're trying to hit it with Stone Edge, you might as well resign (48% chance of hitting it). With Brighpowder these %s drop even lower. Froslass can then set up spikes in relative safety. This set becomes even scarier if you decide to utilize Pain Split in the final slot, as it can keep doing this pretty much forever with a pseudo subRoost strategy (sub down, and then use Pain Split to get more health for subs), not fearing spinners due to its Ghost typing (unlike skarmory/foretress) and being able to hax pretty much everything else to death.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

The other side of the argument...

Froslass:

Froslass does not fit the Defensive Characteristic; weakness to Stealth Rock, only average defenses, and unreliable healing ensure this. In terms of its offensive traits, Froslass has excellent type coverage, but its offensive stats are not quite up to par, especially when factoring in its primary attacks' relatively (compared to 120 BP moves) low Base Power; furthermore, there are a number of solid counters (Registeel, Chansey, Arcanine, etc.) to Froslass. The only outstanding issue is the level of support Froslass provides to a team.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Spikes is undeniably Froslass's main contribution to most teams. When addressing the Support Characteristic in the context of Spikes, one must ask, "Do Spikes make it too substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep?" If the answer to the question is "no", then Froslass fails to meet the Support Characteristic, as the rest of its support options are far from gamebreaking. If the answer is "yes", then another question must be asked: "What characteristics does Froslass have that makes it broken that other Spikers lack?" Ergo, if Froslass is broken, then it is because of how it sets up Spikes.

The most notable traits that separate Froslass from other Spikers are higher Speed, Taunt, and Destiny Bond (suicide lead) and somewhat reliable recovery (bulky Froslass). The suicide lead and the bulky set must be looked at separately, as they are played slightly differently.

Of the top 10 leads of this phase in UU, three are faster than and will Taunt Froslass (Ambipom, Alakazam, Electrode) and three will KO Froslass before it gets more than one layer of Spikes up (Cloyster, Spiritomb, Moltres). The remaining four Pokemon are Froslass, Uxie, Arcanine, and Snover. Against other Froslass, one must chance a speed tie in order to set up; against Uxie, Froslass can potentially be stopped from setting up if it Taunts on Uxie's U-Turn or Spikes on Yawn or Thunder Wave; against Arcanine, Froslass can get two layers of Spikes or a layer and a KO if it Taunts its Toxic or Destiny Bonds on its second Flare Blitz; against most Snover, Froslass easily wins. From this, a conclusion can be drawn: Froslass does not perform consistently well against common leads. Other Spikers, such as Cloyster and Omastar, perform well against about the same number of common leads that Froslass does.

"Is Froslass forcing leads to overspecialize in order to beat it?" No, it is not. Each lead can run a set that effectively deals with Froslass while still managing to perform key tasks and handle other threats. Rock Blast Cloyster and Pursuit Spiritomb are the closest things to overspecialization; yet, their "gimmicky" moves serve other purposes: Rock Blast enables Cloyster to deal with Azumarill and Fire-types (without splitting attacking EVs to run Surf) and Pursuit Spiritomb excels at countering Uxie and Ambipom leads.

A fast Taunt + Destiny Bond must also be taken into account. Directly KOing other Spikers is standard fare; when dealing with Froslass, one must be more careful as to not tread on Destiny Bond. Taunt worsens matters by preventing opponents from defeating it with status. However, in many cases, prediction is required to successfully pull off Taunt + Destiny Bond (ie; against Arcanine, does Froslass Taunt, expecting Toxic, or Destiny Bond, expecting Flare Blitz?), meaning that this threat is far from consistent.

The bulky lead plays more like other Spikers, although it is gifted with non-Rest recovery. While Pain Split can act as a great asset, enabling it to survive neutral hits from more defensive-oriented Pokemon, like Milotic, it does not change the fact that Froslass is still KOed by most super effective moves, especially from Fire-types. There is nothing particularly gamebreaking about this Froslass; like other Spikers, it can easily switch into certain Pokemon and cannot switch into others.

Rapid Spin immunity plays a small part in Froslass's Spiking ability, but when one considers that most Rapid Spinners cannot safely switch into other Spikers anyway, this characteristic becomes less significant.

Finally, some have said that Froslass is broken in Hail. More specifically, that "Hail [pushes] Froslass over the edge if it wasn't BL in the first place." If Froslass outside of Hail was not broken in the first place, as this statement assumes, then a completely independent scenario should have no bearing on whether or not Froslass outside of Hail is broken. As for whether or not Froslass is broken inside of Hail, there are two main benefits that Froslass gains from Hail: 100% accurate Blizzard and activation of Snow Cloak. Blizzard has little bearing on Froslass's supporting abilities, and Snow Cloak's evasion rate is not "consistent", and heightened evasion is not a trait unique to only Froslass.

Conclusively, because the manner in which Froslass sets up Spikes is not overly consistent, Froslass is UU.

 

[Heysup]

Responding to d2m's post from the superthread:

I've never had a problem with Froslass...always 1 set of spikes tops and/or I get to set up a sweeper that destroys the other team. The slow set is terribad when you carry things like Taunt/Plot missy that acts as a 100% counter to it.

Sorry but the reason Froslass is so good is because you can't just "counter it". You are still going to give it a chance to set up Spikes. Then something like Raikou or Swellow comes in on Missy and easily breaks through your team with the stacked entry hazards.

In fact, hell, if you're running the slow set, Omastar is better, it can take more hits from more things and has a much higher SpA to work with.

This is quite obviously false. Let's look at the main differences between the two:

Slow Omastar: 146ish Spe
Slow Froslass: 290ish Spe

This is huge. Especially when considering that Froslass has Taunt. Taunt allows Froslass to completely stop set up, and most importantly, stop Hitmontop from Spinning.

Now last, but definitely not least, Froslass is immune to Rapid Spin. NO other Spiker has this quality. Froslass being immune to Rapid Spin is absolutely key since it allows it to Spin Block while being a Spiker. It also prevents things from Rapid Spinning on Froslass like they would on Omastar. Blastoise and Hitmontop can just switch into Omastar relatively easily, and simply use Rapid Spin. Against Froslass, they allow it to get 3 layers before they threaten to faint it.

 

[Ekanselttar]

(Cut from my response in the megathread, may be somewhat dissonant as far as the flow of the thread goes)

I can't vote, as I haven't pulled myself together to be a true contender (and I like my HO team), but I oppose voting Froslass BL partially because that means more Ambipom and more Uxie. Those pokes have the most annoying (Fake Out) and runner-up most annoying (Trick) moves in the game. This is somewhat biased by the fact that I think that Ambipom is the most annoying pokémon ever with its taunting grin and sheer ugliness and the fact that it gets 90 BP Fame Out. Stupid Ambipom, thinking he's all cool.

Anyways, Froslass, while also annoying, is only really good at setting up spikes. I have seen bulkier sets (I even fought a hail team recently!), but they're just too frail. Ice and ghost aren't bad offensive types, but Froslass still doesn't really get much done. It's also pretty easy to stop it from setting up spikes with a dedicated antilead. My antilead Sharpedo, for example, uses Crunch + Aqua Jet to ensure a single layer of spikes and no Destiny Bond. After that, they're down a poke, and Sharpedo can still do some damage, so I start with a 6-5 advantage. Donphan can then walk in on a t-wave or something that fears ground and get in the spin, if I feel it's necessary or if rocks go up. All in all, it is not a problem to counter Froslass, because it does not require any special adaptation. Any pokémon specifically designed to be an antilead (and thus counter many other pokes) counters Froslass, and the fact that it spin blocks for itself is almost irrelevant because in the hands of 95% of players, it will die rather than be switched out. Under common battle conditions, Froslass cannot consistently set up a situation that makes it substantially easier for other pokémon to sweep.

Important words are underlined. This said, Froslass is a dominant spiker in UU, and should remain a dominant spiker in UU. It is true that it is nigh impossible to stop it from setting up one layer of spikes, but it is easy to stop it from setting up two. If it could consistently get up 2 or 3 layers or stay around long enough to actually block most spins, it would be BL material, but as it stands, there are too many ways to stop it.

Edit: Fake Out is indeed 90 BP. Still one annoying monkey.