capefeather
toot
lol. Who gave this thread two stars? Also, I'm pretty sure at this point that we're going to have the same banlist this month.
Whats wrong with losing to an Aggron? At least Aggron isn't weak to fire (unlike Steelix...) so it's not AS embarassing.Running Air Slash on Toxistall Moltres just to beat Heracross is utterly retarded, you lose to Registeel and Steelix and AGGRON for god's sake. No moltres should ever lose to an aggron >_> This is one of the examples of ridiculous overcentralization that I was referring to earlier.
:(edit: rofl did you really mention curse slowking as a viable option? could you do us all a favor and think before you post? could you please contribute something useful instead of crap like curse slowking pelliper and whatever else your gimmick of the day is? and trick room doesnt really work since a) its switching out after leaf storm and b) it needs healing because of life orb + sr
QFT. While I might be over-emphasising that Heracross in not THAT broken (He most likely is, but not to the extent that people make him out to be), he should deserve a test just like every other Suspect. Remember Alakazam?? Remember Rhyperior?? Remember how they were overhyped by theorymon to break UU when they just fitted in nicely??I don't mean to chime in the conversation about potential sets, but in regards to the Heracross talk, I believe it could be broken but we should at least give it a chance to see how the metagame adapts. If we get the unwavering vibe about Heracross shifting the metagame in an unhealthy manner, rather than a positive one, then the consensus of the players would obviously vote it BL. There's obviously going to be a major centralization with Heracross dropping but I think FlareBlitz raises a good point about "unhealthy" centralization. This is when people resort to running Hidden Power Flying on their Mismagius, Rotoms, and Luxrays, ultimately making the metagame not balanced.
When Porygon-Z was first introduced, we were already theorizing how it can break stall easily and how t it should receive the quick boot. However, in practice, it was indeed broken, albeit not that broken that it deserved the quick boot discussion. I predict the same thing would happen with Heracross - its going to be a powerful threat, but it deserves one full test rather than a quick ban. Afterall, Heracross does have some viable checks, which I can name a few, though it depends entirely on the set ran. In short, Heracross deserves one full test like the other guys.
edit: bad ass, my eggy set aka roserade 2.0 was supposed to be a secret!
I'm saying it cannot be used conclusively as a reaon for banning a Pokemon. Every Pokemon does differently against different teams. If a playstyle suffers because of a Pokemon, it does not mean it is automatically broken, this is what I'm saying. It's like saying a tumour is a malignant cancer when it might not be. Yes, Pokemon X makes playstyle Y difficult is an effect, what you could say a symptom, but not a cause. It's like saying "Oh I got chest pains, that means I have a heart attack" when a whole lot other things can be going on (Asthma, pneumonia, etc). So, basically, Heracross makes Stall difficult, but that does automatically mean it is broken.I will say that one part of your post made no sense; if stallbreaking is an effect of a broken Pokemon, why can that not be used as evidence that a Pokemon is broken? That's like saying "sweeping is an effect of a broken pokemon there it can't be used as evidence that a pokemon is broken". It makes no sense. If defensive teams constitute "a significant portion of the metagame" and if Heracross obliterates defensive teams with little support then it is BL. That's it. Don't try to complicate the discussion, particularly not with incorrect arguments.
You need to think about a Pokemon's tiering status from both sides. For example, lets compare polar opposites: Chansey and Gallade. Chansey walls a very significant portion of the metagame. Gallade sweeps through a significant portion of the metagame. Are both broken? No. Chansey is essentially a liability against any physical attacker and is easily removed via Pursuit, Dugtrio, or even just lolspikes. Gallade is never a liability because it has decent special bulk and it beats Ghosts, Dugtrio, and Psychic-types before they can even think about revenge killing.First, before you turn on your beautiful caps lock to talk about things that weren't said by myself read my previous posts. Gallade was banned because it broke stall way too easily. It wasn't me who said that, as I didn't even vote that round, the majority of the voters did. Heracross' assets allow it to undeniably break stall much more easily.
So why would Moltres do this? To beat Heracross? The same Heracross that is outsped and OHKOed by 44 SpA Flamethrower (89.7% - 105.6%)?????????????????????????????Running Air Slash on Toxistall Moltres just to beat Heracross is utterly retarded, you lose to Registeel and Steelix and AGGRON for god's sake. No moltres should ever lose to an aggron >_> This is one of the examples of ridiculous overcentralization that I was referring to earlier.
It can be used as evidence, but again, you need to consider both sides. Yanmega and Gallade both destroyed offense and stall respectively. However, Yanmega was also exceptionally effective against stall, while Gallade functioned decently against offense. If Heracross is not any better than, for example, SD Blaziken against stall, then sorry it should not be banned. I have a hunch that it won't be the case, but you can't being to think that it's justified to ban it while its being a liability versus offense. If we set the bar that low, goodbye Chansey, goodbye Blaziken, etc.No one with any knowledge of the tier theorymon'd Kazam or Rhyperior to be broken, just very effective (which they are). Additionally, no one here is saying "let's autoban Heracross"; if you look at my first post, I mention the quick boot, and I've mentioned it in pretty much every other post I've made. The idea is that we would not want a metagame where stall just doesn't exist for 2 months (well, I would, but you know what I mean) and that there needs to be a clearly defined process for quickly voting on suspects which are perceived to be blatantly overpowered. I will say that one part of your post made no sense; if stallbreaking is an effect of a broken Pokemon, why can that not be used as evidence that a Pokemon is broken? That's like saying "sweeping is an effect of a broken pokemon there it can't be used as evidence that a pokemon is broken". It makes no sense. If defensive teams constitute "a significant portion of the metagame" and if Heracross obliterates defensive teams with little support then it is BL. That's it. Don't try to complicate the discussion, particularly not with incorrect arguments.
Chansey is only 2HKOed with full Spikes + Stealth Rock using Modest Fire Blast, not Timid. That's the main difference.Anyway, on another topic, I'm currently updating my Offensive SubRoost Moltres set to go with the new format, and have come to the bit to discuss Modest vs Timid Moltres. I do think Timid is the way to go, otherwise stuff like Venusaur would just Sleep Powder you, Hitmonlee and stuff would just revenge you as well. Are there any merits to running Modest?? Don't tell me the obvious that Modest brings more power, what might you 2HKO or OHKO with Modest that you can't with Timid (Include entry hazards in as well, up to something like 2 layers of Spikes or one layer of SR and one layer of Spikes, I don't want anything that takes way too long to set up).