np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]

[jpw234]

Okay, I've finally achieved suspect reqs so I'm going to make one last post in this thread. At this point I've resigned myself to the fact that Keldeo will be staying OU, but I'll give it one last go and explain why I think it should be sent to Ubers.

The first hurdle that I think needs to be overcome is explaining why Keldeo is in a class of its own as far as offensive threats go. There's been a lot of anti-ban people wondering why Keldeo is any different from other powerful threats like Terrakion, or other rain threats like Starmie or Specs Politoed. There are a couple of key attributes that Keldeo has that make it far better than the rest of OU:
- STAB boosted by weather. Water is already a fantastic attacking type, and Keldeo can boost its water STAB with the help of Politoed. This set it apart from most physical attackers like Terrakion and Dragonite by giving it an extra boost on its main attack which lets it 2HKO many specially defensive pokemon that might otherwise counter it. It also contributes to the mindlessness of Keldeo, as you are incentivized in rain to spam Hydro Pump because none of your other attacks are all that powerful or boosted by the weather.
- The ability to hit from both sides of the spectrum. This is a HUGE thing that I feel like the anti-ban side has not spoken to. Other than Specs Latios and maybe Alakazam with Psyshock, nothing puts pressure on special walls like Keldeo's Secret Sword. The additional fact that it's Fighting type (which is way better than Psychic as far as special attacking goes, because most good special walls aren't weak to or resist Psychic since it's a common special attacking type, while Fighting is almost exclusively physical) lets Keldeo easily bypass Blissey, Chansey, Ferrothorn and more. This also gives it the ability to break down great defensive cores like SkarmBliss or FerroCent, straining stall teams. This also specifically differentiates it from other rain abusers like Starmie.
- Lack of weakness to priority. Other powerful pokemon like Terrakion, Dragonite and Salamence are weak to common priority moves. This obviates the need for a scarfer and opens up a wide range of possible checks or revenge killers for them such as Breloom, Mamoswine, Scizor, etc. This is not the case for Keldeo. Keldeo resists Ice Shard and Bullet Punch and is neutrally hit by Mach Punch meaning to offensively check it, you must run a dedicated scarf set. This contributes to the narrowing of potential checks/counters that the pro-ban side is worried about. You can also tack on to this a lack of weakness to Stealth Rock, which means Keldeo can switch in and out many times over the course of a game without losing too much health or quickly putting it in KO range from a priority move.
- Complementary rather than redundant STABs. Water and Fighting cover each other's offensive weaknesses very well (in fact, every singular type is neutrally hit by Water or Fighting). This combined with Keldeo's overwhelming offensive power and ability to hit on both sides of the spectrum makes it pretty much necessary for any counter to resist both of its STABs or be immune to one. This is apparent in Keldeo's small list of counters - Jellicent, Latias, Amoonguss, Celebi, etc. Keldeo's fantastic coverage also allows it to neutrally hit most other threats which is what gives it the power to OHKO so much of the metagame. When you give it the additional ability to cover holes in its coverage with Icy Wind and a Hidden Power (generally Ice, Bug or Ghost) you make Keldeo very scary.
- A versatile list of sets that can put pressure on all of its counters while retaining utility. The standard Scarf/Specs sets are very powerful on their own merits and present a lot of trouble for stall and offense alike. The additional threat of Expert Belt Keldeo, CM Keldeo, or Rain Dance Keldeo makes playing against this musketeer even more difficult. Moves like Icy Wind and HP Bug can dent or destroy Keldeo's counters and make it very easy for Keldeo or a partner to sweep a weakened team. Keldeo's movepool in this regard may not be impressively expansive, but Keldeo doesn't need a big movepool - it can do pretty much all it needs to with Icy Wind and a Hidden Power. Sure, these moves aren't optimal, and Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Signal Beam would really make Keldeo happy, but it performs very well with what it has. This is distinct from threats like Starmie which is very one-dimensional, Garchomp, Volcarona, etc.
I'd like to make an aside and discuss the (rather silly IMO) argument that if you're losing to Expert Belt or CM Keldeo you "just got outplayed", or you "need to predict better", or you "lack game sense" and couldn't tell from Team Preview what the set was. These statements are all rather pretentious and don't seem warranted to me. The sheer power behind Keldeo's moves means that staying in on the thing with a sub-optimal pokemon in anticipation that it's going to try to Icy Wind your Latias could just as easily backfire when you take a Hydro Pump to the face. The decisionmaking here can't be called "prediction", it's just coin-flipping. It most cases you're going to lose something to Keldeo if you don't switch out when it comes in on you, so switching to a counter like Latias, Celebi or Jellicent is simply the most logical option. Sure, looking back you can say that you "should have predicted better" after you take a Specs HP Ghost to the face, or that you could have just "played around it", but if you had made the other decision and lost a pokemon to Hydro Pump spam you would have the exact same regrets. Putting the onus on the defender to make the right 50/50 call every time Keldeo comes into play is not balance, and the hypothetical ability to switch perfectly on every single one of its attacks doesn't really implicate Keldeo's brokenness.

So these are the reasons why Keldeo is distinct in terms of its offensive abilities. There isn't another pokemon in OU that can boast all of these attributes, and saying that something like Starmie will just fill in for Keldeo when it's gone ignores the unique capabilities that Keldeo possesses.

Now we should look at why these things make Keldeo broken. Coming at banning from a teambuilder's perspective (shameless promotion: here is the post that explains this in detail), Keldeo appears quite obviously too strong for OU. The centralization caused by Keldeo is, in my opinion, fairly apparent (given the arguments above about how Keldeo is unique in terms of the stresses it puts on opposing teams). For stall teams, it is required to run at least one counter and one check, if not two counters, to Keldeo in order to break even against a Keldeo user (for me, personally, it's Celebi and Gyarados, although several combinations are viable). Given how small the pool of checks and counters to Keldeo is, this is quite restrictive in teambuilding and IMO harmful. On the offensive side of things, you either need to outspeed it with a large majority of your team to be safe, or pack two of (few) offensive checks to Keldeo. Otherwise you're pretty much accepting at least one pokemon lost if you don't predict perfectly. The necessity of these check/counters to be safe from Keldeo is, IMO, too much for the metagame and justifies a ban.

I'd like to finish this post off by addressing another popular stance/argument from the anti-ban side here. Namely, the argument that "my team is safe from Keldeo, therefore, no big deal", which is also framed as "Keldeo's checks/counters are good pokemon so suck it up" or "standard play doesn't have too much trouble with Keldeo". I have gripes with the validity of each of these statements, but those are mostly addressed above, so let's assume that they are true. These statements fundamentally miss the point of our banning process. Arguing about the ability of common, "Standard Play" to handle Keldeo ignores the fact that we, the battlers and controllers of banning policy, create and define "Standard Play". To say "the metagame we have shaped to this point is fine with Keldeo therefore there's no need for a ban" is silly, because we could have just as easily created a metagame that got totally steamrolled by Keldeo and banned it without a second thought. We can always choose to shape the OU metagame to support the existence of broken pokemon - we did it, in fact, for long periods of time with Excadrill, Landorus-I, Deoxys-S, etc. (and are currently doing it with Kyurem-B and Drizzle/Drought). But this forecloses the possibility of creating an even better metagame by banning these powerful threats. To say that "something can be handled --> leave it be" is essentially a willful settling for a worse metagame when we could do better. There's no rules set in stone that prohibit banning something that isn't an insta-win button. We have the opportunity to create a healthier metagame by banning Keldeo, and we should do it, even if the current metagame isn't completely abhorrent to you (although it is to me and many others). In other words (and I will put this in big bright letters):

Stop making the perfect the enemy of the good and look at banning as what it is, not some godly hammer handed down from on high which we use to scientifically and precisely determine a perfect brightline for brokenness, but a policy tool that we can utilize to make the metagame better for everybody. Don't succumb to some masochistic impulse to put up with Keldeo simply because you think it isn't "quite Uber enough", or "quite broken enough", or bad but not "quite bad enough": take the tool that is given to you for the purposes of making a healthy metagame and USE IT.​

 

[Shurtugal]

OK before I comment on that I had to put my zoom at 70 just to read that make the font smaller my comp. screen exploded! @_@

 

[Haruno]

You know, something I've never understood is how people literally say

"Hey, look at this calc:

attacker vs defender under conditions: x-y"

and then pronounce that they've just proved that attacker is broken and expect us all to pat them on the back and give them a few badges to acknowledge their services to Smogon. Showing us a few calcs proves absolutely nothing (in fact all the above calc proves is that Latias can check even the strongest Keldeo set??????). I mean come on guys, if Keldeo is actually broken you should be able to make a better case than "it can do 60% to Latias LOL".

I don't actually have a strong opinion on whether Keldeo should be banned (which is why I didn't bother getting reqs), but whenever I read one of these threads I'm astounded by how people think that a handful of calcs and a couple of paragraphs of vague generalities that achieve the goal of making it sound like they know what they're talking about when they actually don't constitutes a sound argument for banning something.

It's more astounding at how people run 7-10 different sets all at once in their arguments to prove that keldeo can break past all it's checks/counters bar none and thus declare it as broken. Can keldeo use hp psychic to fuck croak well croak? Sure. Can it run hp ghost to kill latias/jelli? Sure. Can it run hp bug to fuck celebi? Sure. Can it run hp elec to fuck gyara? Sure again. However it can't run all hp's in any given scenario and stuck with one and that's disregarding how the majority of them need specs/ebelt to 2hko.

 

[tab]

I know what you mean tab, but I think the point some of them are trying to make is "Hey, this top tier special wall is taking over 50% from an attack under fairly common conditions from this Pokemon, how the hell does it make any sense that we keep such a powerful Pokemon?"

I mean come on guys, if Keldeo is actually broken you should be able to make a better case than "it can do 60% to Latias LOL".

 

[Spinda]

The first hurdle that I think needs to be overcome is explaining why Starmie is in a class of its own as far as offensive threats go. There's been a lot of anti-ban people wondering why Starmie is any different from other powerful threats like Terrakion, or other rain threats like Keldeo or Specs Politoed. There are a couple of key attributes that Starmie has that make it far better than the rest of OU:
- STAB boosted by weather. Water is already a fantastic attacking type, and Starmie can boost its water STAB with the help of Politoed. This set it apart from most physical attackers like Terrakion and Dragonite by giving it an extra boost on its main attack which lets it 2HKO many specially defensive pokemon that might otherwise counter it. It also contributes to the mindlessness of Keldeo, as you are incentivized in rain to spam Hydro Pump because none of your other attacks are all that powerful or boosted by the weather.
- The ability to hit from both sides of the spectrum. This is a HUGE thing that I feel like the anti-ban side has not spoken to. Other than Specs Latios and maybeAlakazam with Psyshock, nothing puts pressure on special walls like Analytic Starmie's Psyshock. The additional fact that it's Psychic type (which is way better than Fighting as far as Water type attacking goes, as its Analytic rain boosted Hydro Pump hits everything hard, and it's free to spam STABs as none of the water immunities in OU are resistant or immune to Psychic, unlike Fighting, as Jellicent and Toxicroak see frequent use in the OU metagame.
- Lack of weakness to priority. Other powerful pokemon like Terrakion, Dragonite and Salamence are weak to common priority moves. This obviates the need for a scarfer and opens up a wide range of possible checks or revenge killers for them such as Breloom, Mamoswine, Scizor, etc. This is not the case for Starmie. Starmie resists Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, and Mach Punch, meaning to offensively check it, you must run a dedicated scarf set. This is especially true, consider Starmie is the fastest pokemon in OU bar Jolteon, Alakazam, and Dugtrio, unlike pokemon like Keldeo, who get naturally outsped by Lati@s, Espeon, Gengar, and Starmie, while being forced to speed tie with many more pokemon than Starmie is. This contributes to the narrowing of potential checks/counters that the pro-ban side is worried about. You can also tack on to this an ability to Rapid Spin, allowing it to support it's team and making sure both Starmie and Starmie's team won't be worn down as easily.
- Complementary rather than redundant STABs. Water and Psychic cover each other's offensive weaknesses very well (in fact, every singular type is neutrally hit by Water or Psychic). This combined with Starmie's overwhelming offensive power and ability to hit on both sides of the spectrum makes it pretty much necessary for any counter to resist both of its STABs or be immune to one. This is apparent in Keldeo's small list of counters - Chansey, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, etc. Starmies fantastic coverage also allows it to neutrally hit most other threats which is what gives it the power to OHKO so much of the metagame. It actually has a really wide movepool and doesn't have to rely on hidden power.
- A versatile list of sets that can put pressure on all of its counters while retaining utility. The standard LO sets are very powerful on their own merits and present a lot of trouble for stall and offense alike. The additional threat of Analytic LO, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Support or Rain Dance Starmie makes playing against this starfish even more difficult. Moves like Ice Beam, Signal Beam and Thunder can dent or destroy Keldeo's counters and make it very easy for Starmie or a partner to sweep a weakened team. Starmie's movepool is amazing, and it can do whatever it needs with it. These moves are optimal. This is distinct from threats like Keldeo which is very one-dimensional, Garchomp, Volcarona, etc.
I'd like to make an aside and discuss the (rather silly IMO) argument that if you're losing to Specs or Scarf Starmie you "just got outplayed", or you "need to predict better", or you "lack game sense" and couldn't tell from Team Preview what the set was. These statements are all rather pretentious and don't seem warranted to me. The sheer power behind Starmie's moves means that staying in on the thing with a sub-optimal pokemon in anticipation that it's going to try to Ice Beam your Latias could just as easily backfire when you take a Hydro Pump to the face. The decisionmaking here can't be called "prediction", it's just coin-flipping. It most cases you're going to lose something to Starmie if you don't switch out when it comes in on you, so switching to a counter like Latias, Celebi or Jellicent is simply the most logical option. Sure, looking back you can say that you "should have predicted better" after you take a Specs Signal Beam to the face, or that you could have just "played around it", but if you had made the other decision and lost a pokemon to Hydro Pump spam you would have the exact same regrets. Putting the onus on the defender to make the right 50/50 call every time Keldeo comes into play is not balance, and the hypothetical ability to switch perfectly on every single one of its attacks doesn't really implicate Keldeo's brokenness.


I actually think Starmie is a more threatening pokemon than Keldeo btw, mostly due to its superior speed and superior initial power on the switch due to analytic. That, along with more powerful coverage moves.
Can we stop acting like Keldeo is such a flawless pokemon, please? That pitiful movepool is a way bigger deal than you make it out to be.


Just to clarify: no I don't want Starmie banned, but I can list any pokemon and act like their flaws are no big deal and make it out to be broken.
OH NO MY STANDARD FERROTHORN WHICH IS SUCH A PERFECT STARMIE COUNTER HAS A CHANCE OF BEING 2HKO'D BY RAINBOOSTED ANALYTIC SPECS HYDRO PUMP AFTER ROCKS. ( and yes this is counting 1 of the pumps not being analytic boosted )

 

[Plus]

Actually, I think the first hurdle that needs to be overcome is talking strictly Keldeo in a thread pertaining to Keldeo, and not Starmie :x

 

[Shurtugal]

Quick ipod mention: Heavy offense hates Starmie more than Keldeo since stopping it from spinning is near impossible, it's speed tier is higher than 110s, and almost nothing is switching into Analytical LO Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, or Psyshock.

Not saying Keldeo ISN'T threatening offense, only that I personally find Starmie more restricting to offense teambuilding since I find things like Scarf Scizir necessary to keep it from spinning.

Also Keldeo wishes it got Ice Beam or Shadow Ball imo, although its move pool isnt that shabby.

 

[jpw234]

@Spinda - if you think Starmie should also be banned, cool. Starmie is still different from Keldeo though - Psychic is a much worse special STAB than Fighting, its SpA is way lower, and its primary role is to Rapid Spin. It's also Pursuit weak and far more frail than Keldeo is, combined with lower survivability as it has to run LO on its offensive sets.. Also, I specifically addressed Keldeo's movepool, and I don't see why its worse than what I made it out to be. I'm not pretending that Keldeo auto-wins against any one of its counters or anything.

Just to clarify: no I don't want Starmie banned, but I can list any pokemon and act like their flaws are no big deal and make it out to be broken.
OH NO MY STANDARD FERROTHORN WHICH IS SUCH A PERFECT STARMIE COUNTER HAS A CHANCE OF BEING 2HKO'D BY RAINBOOSTED ANALYTIC SPECS HYDRO PUMP AFTER ROCKS. ( and yes this is counting 1 of the pumps not being analytic boosted )

I didn't do that at all, nor did you actually answer any of the arguments. You just tried to shoehorn them onto another pokemon. Even if the situations are the same (which I don't think they are for reasons above) that's just a reason to ban both.

 

[Spinda]

@Spinda - if you think Starmie should also be banned, cool. Starmie is still different from Keldeo though - Psychic is a much worse special STAB than Fighting, its SpA is way lower, and its primary role is to Rapid Spin. Also, I specifically addressed Keldeo's movepool, and I don't see why its worse than what I made it out to be. I'm not pretending that Keldeo auto-wins against any one of its counters or anything.

As I said, I don't think Starmie should be banned, nor do I think Keldeo should. Ofc Starmie is different from Keldeo, they're not the same pokemon. "Primary roles" are irrelevant if they can perform another role just as well, which Specs Starmie can. Psychic is honestly not that damn bad, as the only pokes immune to it that get used in OU are pretty damn afraid to take a hydro pump ( reference: 252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon in rain: 260-306 (79.75 - 93.86%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock ), I feel Starmie is a lot more free to just spam STABs than Keldeo is, and even then Starmie has BETTER coverage options.. Abilities do make up for loss of power also ( Before you tell me about how Keldeo has a better physical attack stat than Azumarill, also ), keldeo's ability being useless on any good set. My point being, if Specs Keldeo predicts your jellicent to come in or whatever and uses hp ghost, you can still switch out, if Specs Starmie predicts your switch in, you're dead. Keldeo would kill for those coverage options and those coverage options are part of what makes Starmie a better (obviously subjective ) pokemon than Keldeo in general from my experience, both for supporting the team and just breaking holes. When it comes to hydro spamming, breaking water immunities easier is the more important thing, honestly.
Your post implied Keldeo was in another league of Starmie, which I respectfully disagree with, as I believe quite the opposite.
I am not implying Starmie is broken, and I could've used other pokemon for my example too, my point is that Keldeo isn't broken, it's at the power level of the tier and it wouldn't have been a top tier OU if it was worse than it currently is.

And I keep mentioning specs starmie ( which is a good set ), but you say it has to run LO if it's offensive, Starmie can run E-belt and choice items efficiently too, that doesn't change just by you ignoring it.

 

[hard]

I will vote to keep Keldeo unbanned, because I got the impression that the metagame is varied and healthy enough to deal with the massive amount of very powerful offensive Pokemon.
It is obviously not easy to deal with them by having a counter, but thats not only a fault of sheer offense and versatility, but also the predictability that came with team preview.
Defensive countering becomes a lot harder if you can predict the check to come in, not only because of coverage, but because doubleswitching, chip damage and so on happens.
I can understand the ban position but most of the comments would only lead me to ban rain (which I still don´t want) instead of Keldeo on his own.

Another point I want to bring up, is the level of difficulty to reach the suspect voter requirements.
I´d like to see an improvement in the next suspect test, because its too easy to get the requirements. The current solution would work much better, if successful players would not only battle until they reach the requirements, but also to get rid of players that don´t deserve to get them. It should work more like a competition, to make sure that only qualified persons take part in the decision. I, for example, had a completely silly team that was easy to counter, but still got the requirements, while only having like 10 matches against Keldeo and never using it even once in this time.
Maybe you would only need a high amount of played matches to ensure a deep knowledge. This could hopefully get more good players to ladder for a longer time.

I´m not a native speaker so correct my post whenever you feel it is necessary (:

 

[Terraquaza]

Gonna vote for OU, Ojamas post was perfect and I think its the nature of BW that hardcountering doesn't work anymore

 

[Stone RG]

It's more astounding at how people run 7-10 different sets all at once in their arguments to prove that keldeo can break past all it's checks/counters bar none and thus declare it as broken. Can keldeo use hp psychic to fuck croak well croak? Sure. Can it run hp ghost to kill latias/jelli? Sure. Can it run hp bug to fuck celebi? Sure. Can it run hp elec to fuck gyara? Sure again. However it can't run all hp's in any given scenario and stuck with one and that's disregarding how the majority of them need specs/ebelt to 2hko.

This. SO. Much.
Everybody tries to prove that keldeo can run past its supposedly foolproof counters, but they dont realize its impossible for it to get past all of them at the same time, hell, its impossible for him to get past any single one but celebi w/o serious prediction skills, unless youre running something idiotic like hp psychic. Hidden Power's damage output is pathetic, even for a great special attacker like keldeo.

Imo, thats the main reason the ebelt set is so overrated, it may lure stuff or get you a surprise kill here and there, but (i hope this doesnt get misunderstood) in the higher stages of the ladder its much easier to see when pony is ebelt or not, and its supposedly its most dangerous set? Im dead scared of the specs set, not even in rain, well more than the ebelt one. And of course, we know the main problem with choice users.

For the other 2 sets, calm mind requires set up, which often wastes a valuable turn in this fast paced meta, and is shit scared of lati@s, or scarfers in general, not to mention it still suffers from the main wall issues the ebelt set has.

Im pretty sure i already said this, but i dont think were banning keld for his revenge killing potential, while it IS imo the best set due to its role late game, its quite weak compared to other sets, and to pull off the sweep you need quite a lot of support.

Btw, i agree completely with tab, calcs generally only work for a specific set in specific conditions, it serves for jack when taking into account a counter/check, since, in practice, those calcs will more often than not not come into play. Also, 4 hp latias?

 

[Schpoonman]

Keldeo not being able to run every Hidden Power goes both ways. Are YOU carrying Jellicent AND Celebi AND Toxicroak? Then you've just devoted half your team to checking one Pokemon which is not the hallmark of a non-broken Pokemon. I suppose the argument is still in favor of "Keldeo is not broken" but it's not as though every time you have HP Ghost you face Toxicroak, then you switch to Bug and it's Jellicent, then to Psychic and it's Latias.

 

[Haruno]

Keldeo not being able to run every Hidden Power goes both ways. Are YOU carrying Jellicent AND Celebi AND Toxicroak? Then you've just devoted half your team to checking one Pokemon which is not the hallmark of a non-broken Pokemon. I suppose the argument is still in favor of "Keldeo is not broken" but it's not as though every time you have HP Ghost you face Toxicroak, then you switch to Bug and it's Jellicent, then to Psychic and it's Latias.

With the hp argument the vast majority of the time it'll be the hp that you don't need. As for it's common list of checks/counters you have; latias, jelli, toxicroak, celebi, gyarados, amoongus. You could probably toss up some other shit that I can't be assed to remember but keldeo is not breaking through any of these without the proper hp and in jelli/amoongus' case it has to run specs as well. So let's see

hp ghost: toxi, gyara. and amoongus and possibly jelli if it's the specially defensive set.
hp elec: toxi, latias, amoongus, celebi and jelli if it's the specially defensive set.
hp bug: toxi, gyara, amoongus, jelli
hp psychic: gyara, jelli, celebi, and latias

so regardless of what hp you use there are at the minimum 3 mons and possibly 4 if you're running ebelt/scarf. So no matter what there will be several mons that hard wall keldeo. Even if you just so happen to use a keldeo check and keldeo is carrying the respective hp needed to bypass it, that mon is far from deadweight as opposed to what many seem to argue. In that just case you just revenge keldeo and be done with it. Unlike lando-i, torn-t, gene and the likes, keldeo has no surefire way of overpowering its checks/counters hence why it's nowhere near as broken. Is it a good mon? Sure but it's hardly breaking the metagame since rain or w/e the hell you use keldeo on will function just as fine without it.

 

[Myzozoa]

Gonna vote for OU, Ojamas post was perfect and I think its the nature of BW that hardcountering doesn't work anymore

Neither side is discussing the merits of a Keldeo ban based on whether or not it has counters, we know it has counters. The issue is whether those counters and checks are reliable enough to handle Keldeo 100%, and viable for common play styles.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Neither side is discussing the merits of a Keldeo ban based on whether or not it has counters, we know it has counters. The issue is whether those counters and checks are reliable enough to handle Keldeo 100%, and viable for common play styles.

And the answer to that would be yes.

 

[X5Dragon]

Looks like I'm going to use that one post per day after all. After I finished my reqs in the 11th hour, and seeing how nobody here is questioning the strength of defensive playstyles against Keldeos, my answer is also yes for offensive teams. When it comes to facing Keldeo, it's a matter of either outspeeding it as a check and killing it, revenge kill it after you sack a depleted (read: useless) mon or boost at some point in game in which case Keldeo can't do anything anyway without any priorities or speed boosts. It relies on play skill and strategy, and if Keldeo's master managed to outplay the other offensive team and support it well, then he won fair and square, ain't nothin broken about dat pony I say..

 

[FrostFire]

Neither side is discussing the merits of a Keldeo ban based on whether or not it has counters, we know it has counters. The issue is whether those counters and checks are reliable enough to handle Keldeo 100%, and viable for common play styles.

Agree with this point.

As I've been thinking about Keldeo, part of the problem I have with it is that, for defensive teams, often you just don't know what set it's running until it's too late. Celebi is just a great example of this; it hard counters almost every Keldeo set - unless it has HP bug. Often when I use my sand stall team, I face the really tough decision of whether I should switch in Celebi or not when Keldeo shows up; and it always feels like such a coin toss. What's more, if I guess wrong, then I lose my special wall, and stall teams really struggle to come back from that kind of loss (because your defensive core/ synergy has been broken).

Each individual Keldeo set absolutely has counters. However those counters do differ a bit depending on the set, and the set that Keldeo is running is not always self-evident at team preview, or even after it's taken some damage in battle (Choice specs, choice scarf, and E-belt don't reveal themselves; you pretty much have to guess based on damage output, meaning that something is taking a hit when you scout it).

Don't read this the wrong way though. I'm entirely sold on a Keldeo ban (partially because, ironically, I feel I didn't see it much on the ladder). Also, I'm aware of Keldeo's shortcomings (specs is easier to revenge; scarf isn't particularly strong; E-belt really functions more as a lure, and isn't as effective as a straight-up life orb if the opposing team doesn't have Celebi). Also, while I was playing on the ladder, I was just never aware of Keldeo being particularly troublesome - maybe if I'd played some better players who spammed Keldeo I would feel differently but eh. Still, if there was a reason to ban it, then in my mind, the reason would be because Keldeo can get around nearly all of it's counters depending on the set it's running - and you don't necessarily know what set that is. (also, factor in Tyranitar support, and then even Latias isn't really a problem).

 

[MikeDawg]

Just a note,
"The pro ban side thinks it can run x sets at the same time" is, bar none, the stupidest, most unproductive common argument in any suspect thread.

Reason being that doing so completely ignores the good posts (that don't do this) and target the couple of users who clearly don't have a grasp on the suspect anyway and are unlikely to receive reqs in the first place who come to the thread to make posts like "Jelli, hp ghost. Gyara, hp electric. Toxi, hp psychic"

On both sides, if you aren't targetting a good post (ojama, for example, for the pro- ban side), chances are you are not only arguing for the sake of arguing but are also instituting a complete strawman argument, irrelevant to the consensus reached by the respective party.

 

[Romances]

I don't think Keldeo deserves to be banned. It's an incredibly good offensive Pokemon, but doesn't particularly restrict team building, since in the current meta, you're already forced to run specific rain checks, or strategies to beat rain teams. Keldeo just happens to be the best rain abuser, due to its high special attack and solid dual STAB. Starmie is also a great rain abuser, and it hits especially hard if it has the ability Analytic, but since it has the dual Psychic typing, it's not as good. Fighting in particular is a great type as it can hit many other types for super effective damage and only has two weaknesses alone ( Fighting and Flying ), while Psychic has 3 weaknesses, and hit's a few pokemon for super effective damage, but it does helps with Fighting and Poison types. They both have their uses. Since Rain is the most dominant weather, you're already forced run checks/ counters, so it's your fault that you forgot to think about a counter to Keldeo when building your team :(, and when you face it in combat you let it tear you into shreds since you weren't prepared for that cute little pony <3.

 

[Curtains]

Alright I just complete the requirements to vote by doing the requirements needed for the OU suspect ladder. I must say and this cannot be ignored... The amount of starmie on the ladder was just something I have never seen before. On the OUcurrent ladder I ran into about 3 keldeo, but on the suspect ladder it was literally 95% of teams had starmie. Starmie showed up for good reason. It picks up where keldeo left off as far as the ability to hit hard with solid coverage. The difference between keldeo and starmie is that starmie is actually better... it can recover, rapid spin, run LO effectively and has analytic. It resist mach punch meaning it can check breloom in the right conditions. Starmie is faster than lati@s which is huge because SR analytic + ice beam deals with them without the need for a silly HP or icy wind. So the story of the suspect ladder without keldeo ,whether we like it or not is starmie. As far as my opinion on keldeo goes I still think keldeo probably shouldnt be banned... HO is just so good without keldeo. Most matches were just trying to remove my opponents starmie before they kill mine. Literally autopilot.

 

[MilkyWay]

While Keldeo certainly is a good pokemon, especially in the rain, I don't think it's broken. In the ou, with or without keldeo, you are going to be forced to run rain checks, that's just how it is. Keldeo doesn't restrict team building anymore than other ou superstars such as scizor, breloom, tyranitar, ect. When you build a team you have to take into account popular pokemon and strategies and design your team to get around them. Keldeo (or rain in general) is in that category of popular strategies that you have to be ready to face and have a method of dealing with. For example, you may have noticed that a lot of special attackers either run hidden power ice, or ice beam as one of their coverage moves. And although ice is a great offensive typing, the main reason they run it is to hit dragons. Doesn't this restrict team building by forcing them to add hp ice just to deal with dragons? So by this logic shouldn't we ban all dragons because they are restricting team building? Another common critism for keldo is that it can "attack from both ends of the spectrum", via secret sword. However, don't most keldeo sets in the ou either run scarf or specs? So if you try spamming hydro pump in the rain and your opponent switches in blissey to tank it, you can't just use secret sword the next turn because your choiced. Now I understand with correct prediction you could hit blissey on the switch in, which isn't too hard, but it requires a level of skill and experience. A lot of people have been saying that you can just spam hydropump with specs or scarf keldeo in the rain and wrec shit, but clearly there is some level of skill like there has always been in pokemon. So, but what if you use a life orb or a calm mind set so you can get around being stuck to one move while still having a bit of power? Then you could surely hit from both sides of the spectrum. While I must point out that not only are these two sets used far less than scarf and specs, but they are simply inferior. Calm mind takes a turn to set up on every switch and once you use it its dead obvious what your running. Specs and scarf are partially so dangerous because its hard to tell which one your doing, especially so early in the game where you don't want to make dumb mistakes. As for life orb, not only is it dead obvious what your doing, but keldeo just simply doesn't last from the recoil. With life orb faster threats such as the lati twins know they can easily revenge kill it not having to fear the scarf, and the life orb recoil in tandem with attacks from faster threats wear keldeo down too fast, not to memtion that keldeo isnt all that bulky in the first place, although to be fair its far from frail too. Finally, I hate to break it to you people, but a pokemon can only run one hidden power per set. So keldeo can't magically take down its checks and counters with hidden power ice, bug ghost, and electric. "But I don't know which hidden power it's running, what if I switch in my Gyarados and it has hp electric, this stupid thing should go to ubers." Well I'm sorry, but you don't know which move any pokemon on your opponents team is running until they use it, that's the same for all pokemon, even the "all mighty" keldeo. Besides, even if you switch in your celebi and they are running hidden power bug, I guarantee you their choiced, meaning they'd have to get you on the switch with it. And if they aren't choiced, then I wouldn't even take them as much of a threat. Like I said before, life orb keldeo sucks, and calm mind keldeo is just inferior to scarf and specs. While it may be hard to figure out if keldeo is running specs or scarf, the difference between a choiced set and a non choiced set shouldn't be that hard. So if a keldeo spams hydro pump one turn and you know it's choiced, you could safely switch in your jellicent the next, even if keldeo does have hp ghost. While keldeo is a great pokemon, if not one of the best in the ou, its certainly far from broken. Like Aldaron said, the suspect test is not used to determine which metagame you like better, but if the suspects is broken, and in this case keldeo is not broken.

 

[Bughouse]

I would like to bring up what I think was one of the best posts of the thread, quite a few pages back, and it didn't get a single direct response that I noticed. Cutting it down to a shorter post, but you can go back and read it all. I'm not going to attempt to speak for Myzozoa, because Myzozoa put it better than I could and can continue to make better points than I can if people choose to respond this time around. But I will add my two cents below.

The main difference I see between Keldeo and every other pokemon in the tier, is that Keldeo requires unique preparation in team construction unless you want it to destroy you. Amoongus, Sp. d Celebi, Jellicent, etc. These are not pokemon that most teams really want to be using, and I don't think they'd enjoy as much usage in a Keldeo-less metagame (see bw 1 usage). I'm not saying every team has to have these pokemon (I would not argue this at all), but the reason Weatherless and Sand are weak to Keldeo is because they have no room to run answers to Keldeo better than Starmie or Latias. They cannot afford to lose the utility that these pokemon have and Celebi/Jelli/Amoongus can't replicate it.

......

The point I'm trying to show is that Keldeo has a restrictive affect on the diversity and competitiveness of the metagame. Think of every Rain team that runs Celebi instead of Ferrothorn, they're doing that to check Keldeo. I think that Keldeo is unique (with the exception of weather) in the metagame in forcing such trade offs, and these trade-offs are bad because they increase the importance of team match-up over skilled play.

......

Think about a sand team: Ttar, Ferro, Land-t, Latias, Scizor, Terrakion

and another sand team: Ttar, Skarmory, Amoongus, Land-t, Scizor, Terrakion

The first team is significantly better than the second one against teams of any kind that don't have Keldeo. The second faces slightly worse to much worse match-ups against sun, rain, and weatherless teams, but may be preferred to the first team specifically because it has Amoongus to handle Keldeo. Whichever version you choose, you are choosing to lose some matches before they're played.

This argument is I think the most relevant one to be having. Not some abstraction about Starmie. This is a test about Keldeo and whether it is overly restrictive in teambuilding such to the point it merits a ban. I am of the opinion that it does. It is significantly easier to win with a team not carrying one of these counters in a metagame without Keldeo than in one with it. This is tautological. Of course it's easier when Keldeo's gone, if you're not carrying an explicit counter. The same could be said for anything. Kyurem-B, Terrakion, etc. But it is MUCH easier. So much so that I find it ban-worthy.

THIS is the argument that really should be going on: Is Keldeo overly restrictive? Did you use the same team on both ladders? If so, what experience did you have in matches where you faced a Keldeo, versus ones where you didn't?

 

[hyperbeem]

During this very enlightening round I made some interesting discoveries. By achieving OU current reqs with RU Pride, I learned that keldeo can be checked even within the RU tier. Then, for OU Suspect Test I formulated my team by putting together 5 keldeo checks/counters and a hazard user to demonstrate the viability of such pokemon outside of checking/countering keldeo. Both were easy af

 

[jpw234]

No, that's not the argument we should be having here. Whether something is broken or not depends on the pokemon's ability to nullify its checks without compromising its ability to function against everything else. Keldeo does not posses this ability due to its shallow movepool. Jellicent, Celebi, Toxicroak, Gyarados, Starmie and Latias are all common pokemon in OU and Keldeo simply doesn't have the ability to get past all of them at the same time.
More specifically, lack of Ice Beam and overreliance on HP are what limit Kedelo's potential.

Mhm, so I guess we should unban Deoxys-D, right? It could run HP Fire to get around Forretress, or Magic Coat to get around faster Taunt leads, or Psycho Boost to get past Tentacruel, or Skill Swap to beat Espeon/Xatu...but it can't "get past all of them at the same time" so who cares? We should probably unban Excadrill, who was hard countered by several common pokemon in OU including Hippowdon, Skarmory and Air Balloon Terrakion Gliscor.

There are counters for everything. The standard you have outlined is impossible to the extent you appear to be applying it. Saying that something must be able to get past ALL of its checks while retaining utility is a ridiculous standard that would never ban anything. Keldeo can run four different sets "without compromising its ability to function against everything else" (as all it needs for that is Hydro Pump and Secret Sword) and then pick the checks it wants to defeat. It can also nullify other counters with simple team support. What more do you want? What would Keldeo have to do to deserve a ban in your eyes?