I mentioned this earlier that I think it's strange we're suddenly trying to preserve stall and looking from a stall POV after being over a year into a decidedly offensive metagame. Maybe this is part of the "creating a metagame we want" sort of thing. I don't know. But, I think it's good we got a POV from an offensive player at least.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
- Status
Lavos
Banned deucer.
stall vs stall tends to be the most skill reliant matchup as opposed to bw2 ho vs ho which is almost 50/50 in terms of matchup/guesswork. "prediction" is not so much a thing and a long term plan often takes a backseat to impulsive plays in ho vs ho games. i believe the emphasis on preserving stall as a viable playstyle (besides the fact that it's been around for so long) stems from the idea that the primary goal of suspect testing is to maximize skill needed to win games, i.e. better player beats worse player 99.9% of the time (ideal scenario).
or we could all blame bkc
or we could all blame bkc
Based on my experiences with all of this, and after almost obtaining reqs, I guess I'll post my opinion on this.
During the Land-I phaze, I was really on the fence with Keldeo. It's very threatening in Rain, and when paired with U-Turn Landorus-I, which basically eliminated all of its counters on its own minus like Jellicent, it was one of if not arguably the best late game sweeper at the time. With Land-I gone, I've noticed Keldeo's presence is that similar to something like Terrakion. It's very powerful, checks a lot of things in the metagame, but has enough solid hard counters and checks that it isn't broken. It's definitely a good Pokemon (I'm glad a lot more people are using E-Belt Keldeo!), but I don't think it's broken.
Also, when doing the suspect tests, I went in with the Kyu-B meta thinking we needed to create a desirable metagame (I still think Kyu-B is stupid strong, but w/e). But when it comes down to it, all these do is determine whether Pokemon X or Pokemon Y is broken or if it's stable in the metagame. If you want to make stall, as someone already pointed out, you can still use mons that check Keldeo while still being solid on a stall team, like Jellicent, Latias, etc (Though I think CM + 3 attacks might run through stall unless like Psyshock Latias on stall or some shit), which is unlike Land-I, which ran through almost every single mon depending on its set.
Anyway, I will most likely be voting do not ban on Keldeo, unless something drastically changes in the near future.
During the Land-I phaze, I was really on the fence with Keldeo. It's very threatening in Rain, and when paired with U-Turn Landorus-I, which basically eliminated all of its counters on its own minus like Jellicent, it was one of if not arguably the best late game sweeper at the time. With Land-I gone, I've noticed Keldeo's presence is that similar to something like Terrakion. It's very powerful, checks a lot of things in the metagame, but has enough solid hard counters and checks that it isn't broken. It's definitely a good Pokemon (I'm glad a lot more people are using E-Belt Keldeo!), but I don't think it's broken.
Also, when doing the suspect tests, I went in with the Kyu-B meta thinking we needed to create a desirable metagame (I still think Kyu-B is stupid strong, but w/e). But when it comes down to it, all these do is determine whether Pokemon X or Pokemon Y is broken or if it's stable in the metagame. If you want to make stall, as someone already pointed out, you can still use mons that check Keldeo while still being solid on a stall team, like Jellicent, Latias, etc (Though I think CM + 3 attacks might run through stall unless like Psyshock Latias on stall or some shit), which is unlike Land-I, which ran through almost every single mon depending on its set.
Anyway, I will most likely be voting do not ban on Keldeo, unless something drastically changes in the near future.
HAHA stall vs stall is just as matchup reliant if not more. A stall team that doesn't have Toxic Spikes absorption is usually at the mercy of one that employs Toxic Spikes. Stall vs stall can even just come down to who has the more durable spinner. Or, as I've witnessed firsthand multiple times, some stall teams can have their momentum murdered by something as simple as a Taunt Skarmory. Or my FAVORITE, stall vs stall matches that are determined by whose Skarmory speed creeped more.
You're deluding yourself if you're thinking any of this is skill. So much of stall vs. stall comes down to strengths/weaknesses of your team that don't come up in 95/100 games against offense teams.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
from what i've seen of bw2 stall this is hardly the case, it's almost always a very skill-oriented contest to see who can put the most pressure on the opponent before one of their pokemon gives way. once the 6v6 turns into a 6v5 it's generally over, but this can take a really long time. yes it's true that extremely niche sets like fast taunt skarmory can tear other stall teams apart, but toxic spikes absorption is on a large percentage of stall teams nowadays (not to mention spinner + pursuit trapper), and speed on skarm hardly matters unless one is running taunt in which case they don't have an attack which in turn will affect other aspects of the game. it's the most complex type of pokemon game, and so much thinking goes into every play, whereas in offense v offense each turn is like "hmmm do i draco meteor expecting him to stay in or double to terrakion?"
as in any matchup, strengths and weaknesses of the respective teams are a relevant factor in determining the outcome, but it's safe to say that stall v stall is the current teamstyle matchup that requires the most thinking and overall skill.
and by the way, i'm not "deluding" myself. take your insults somewhere else.
as in any matchup, strengths and weaknesses of the respective teams are a relevant factor in determining the outcome, but it's safe to say that stall v stall is the current teamstyle matchup that requires the most thinking and overall skill.
and by the way, i'm not "deluding" myself. take your insults somewhere else.
i sort of agree with both sides in this stall v stall thing. i can attest to the fact that certain facets of stall teams which usually dont come into play against offense can be the gamebreaker against opposing stall (earth power on sdef heatran is probably the best example, as well as speed creep on things like jellicent/skarmory/cbtar) and that is a matchup issue. the whole 50/50 spin/attack scenario (which isnt as cut and dry as it may seem, i find the crunch/pursuit game to be a lot more frustrating) that is extremely important also comes into play a lot. however i think that dismissing the entire stall v stall game as matchup is untrue, and i certainly dont find it nearly as matchup based as risky archetypes like sun. smart playing and long term thinking both really go a long way, moreso than your average bw game, where youll more commonly see more popular brutal offensive teams that simply (try to) blitz through everything in sight just by virtue of how powerful they are (not that theres anything wrong with that of course). plus, and maybe this is just me, but i find playing my way out of a stall v stall game to be much more rewarding than repeatedly barraging my opponent with the strongest attacks available (although that is fun on occasion).
then again theres always rain stall v rain stall, in which case you better have a really good internet connection and a tolerance for scald burns.
then again theres always rain stall v rain stall, in which case you better have a really good internet connection and a tolerance for scald burns.
I have to agree that Stall vs. Stall is very match up reliant. My Rain stall team has Ferrothorn / Politoed / Landorus-T / Jirachi / Tentacruel / Latias, and if I see I'm facing someone using a Jellicent? I generally have already won, because Jellicent can't stop Tentacruel from spinning (I'm running the Sub Toxic set). Once Jellicent has died from switching into hazards and what not I have no pressure on my team when switching, giving me a huge advantage just because I ran into someone using Jellicent, not because I even played better.
I'd also like to mention a topic that bothered me on the ladder (which I'm sure it bothered a lot of people). Scald. Oh my lord, Scald is on of the worst and best moves in the game (depending on whether you're burning people with it, or if you're the one getting burned). When there wasn't much team match up with Stall vs. Stall, it usually came down to who could burn their opponents Tentacruel first, which really stops you from playing how you'd like to play because you need to keep x Pokemon for whatever reason during the match, and can't risk switching it in to a Scald because of that 30% burn. Scald has sadly sometimes (more then I'd like it to) been the decider of whether I win or lose a certain game.
I'd also like to mention a topic that bothered me on the ladder (which I'm sure it bothered a lot of people). Scald. Oh my lord, Scald is on of the worst and best moves in the game (depending on whether you're burning people with it, or if you're the one getting burned). When there wasn't much team match up with Stall vs. Stall, it usually came down to who could burn their opponents Tentacruel first, which really stops you from playing how you'd like to play because you need to keep x Pokemon for whatever reason during the match, and can't risk switching it in to a Scald because of that 30% burn. Scald has sadly sometimes (more then I'd like it to) been the decider of whether I win or lose a certain game.
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Don't cry when I matchup you with Rest Jelli.
I'm laddering using a slight variant on Meru's Sand stall. I'm almost there...
And about the matchup thing, I mostly disagree. Particular movesets such as Taunt on a few pokemon, like Skarm, help against other stall teams, so I think it's mainly specific moves and items that help against opposing stall teams. However, Sun stall is dreadfully weak to sand stall, and is a piece of cake usually.
And about the matchup thing, I mostly disagree. Particular movesets such as Taunt on a few pokemon, like Skarm, help against other stall teams, so I think it's mainly specific moves and items that help against opposing stall teams. However, Sun stall is dreadfully weak to sand stall, and is a piece of cake usually.
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haunter
Banned deucer.
The deadline isn't going to be moved. You've been given 5 more days than the canonical 2 weeks also to confront potential server issues.
So after getting reqs, I've decided to give my .02 on the Starmie Keldeo test.
I'm pretty firmly pro-ban, simply because of how efficiently Keldeo beats pretty much all of its counters with minimal to no support. Hell, half of its "checks" die to hydro spam anyways. Lati@s and Celebi die to Icy Wind + HP bug, Jelli dies to HP ghost, not to mention that specdef Jelli is a hulking piece of shit to begin with. If you're packing the wrong Keldeo check relative to their hidden power you lose, and that's just not ok. The effect it has on building a team is overcentralizing, yes I realize that due to rain you have to pack water resists etc anyways but because of Keldeo you have to pack very specific counters since things that would otherwise be good against rain (Ferrothorn comes to mind) get pretty easily manhandled.
As an aside, Starmie is nowhere near as powerful or overbearing as pony. They almost aren't even comparable.
I'm pretty firmly pro-ban, simply because of how efficiently Keldeo beats pretty much all of its counters with minimal to no support. Hell, half of its "checks" die to hydro spam anyways. Lati@s and Celebi die to Icy Wind + HP bug, Jelli dies to HP ghost, not to mention that specdef Jelli is a hulking piece of shit to begin with. If you're packing the wrong Keldeo check relative to their hidden power you lose, and that's just not ok. The effect it has on building a team is overcentralizing, yes I realize that due to rain you have to pack water resists etc anyways but because of Keldeo you have to pack very specific counters since things that would otherwise be good against rain (Ferrothorn comes to mind) get pretty easily manhandled.
As an aside, Starmie is nowhere near as powerful or overbearing as pony. They almost aren't even comparable.
Alright, since the deadline for the test is coming to a close, I think I should give my final sentiments on Keldeo.
Keldeo is definitely a very strong Pokemon, but that does not mean it is directly broken. For the most part this thread has turned from its original cause in debating Keldeo to a lot more different discussions, but most of them relate to how Keldeo can break up those types of teams / styles. As I have noted multiple times, Keldeo does much better against offense, as have others. Keldeo struggles more against most stall teams, and definitely has its checks and counters. However, Keldeo can definitely work around its checks rather well. As Lord Of Bay's has noted Latios, Latias, and Starmie are checks, and not counters due to Keldeo's beautiful Icy Wind + Hidden Power Bug combo. Now prediction is a bit overrated quite often, as nobody has perfect prediction and can always come out on top in these situations through prediction. Prediction is very subjective as one person may not react the same way as somebody else, and you can never really 100% be sure you'll beat Keldeo's typical offensive checks. However, the actual "counters" Keldeo has are much more defensive and solid. As you have seen, Keldeo mostly does better against its more commonly offensive checks than defensive counters, which clearly shows how Keldeo preforms against offense v stall. Keldeo can't break through these Pokemon without some decent support, so it is unfair to say Keldeo is un-counterable, because its not. Amoonguss, Bulky Toxicroak, Tentacruel, and Jellicent (although Jellicent can be broken up very quickly, so maybe it is a more "check" than counter, but HP Ghost is not too dangerous). This is why I say Keldeo does much better against offense than stall, as the majority of its counters are indeed defensive, except for Toxicroak, who is usually seen on Rain Offense instead.
Now of course this will bring up the issue of "limiting teambuilding" for offense, as stall has less problems than offense with Keldeo, and doesn't need to worry nearly as much. Now I will be the first to say I DO think Keldeo does limit teambuilding quite a bit for offense, and maybe even a little for stall. But to be honest this isn't really a definite argument to ban Keldeo. Quite a lot of things "limit teambuilding" and to be honest, I don't think Keldeo is the #1 Pokemon in that regard. A lot of today's top threats limit teambuilding, and although Keldeo definitely is very powerful and does certainly pose a huge threat to most standard offensive teams, I don't think this is enough to warrant a ban. However, I do respect how Keldeo is very well one of offenses biggest problems, and Scarf versions can tear it apart pretty badly, much worse than the average Pokemon in the metagame. It is harder to wear Keldeo down through passive damage, and overall it has what it needs to combat offense effectively. This is where I kind of differ, as this does raise the question that Keldeo is unhealthy for the metagame. This test has been pretty conflicting, especially because of how Landorus-I was basically being discussed for banning on the same grounds. If Keldeo did get a momentum gaining move like U-Turn, then I would definitely be voting ban as it ultimately results in an even better way of defeating its counters with ease, but thankfully it doesn't.
We basically have two sides to this problem, one saying Keldeo limits offensive (and sometimes defensive) teambuilding especially, is unhealthy for the metagame, and basically can handle the majority of its common offensive checks by itself given proper prediction. Then we have the side saying Keldeo is not broken and shouldn't be banned because it is handled and not too hard to defeat, it just needs adjustment and is not as horrible as everybody thinks it is. As undisputed noted, both Specs and Scarf Keldeo can be easily exploited. It may even be good for the metagame as it can additionally balance and revenge some of the metagame's top threats. Its counters are very solid and all have a way to Recover, which makes it easy for them to continuosly switch in and beat Keldeo consistently.
At this point, I agree with undisputed and Ojama. It looks like Keldeo isn't being banned, and it has pretty good reasoning behind it. Pursuiting is a much harder game to play without U-Turn to aid you, and double switching it a much harder practice to do. Keldeo may actually aid the metagame in bringing out some more variety in the metagame such as Amoonguss and Slowking, who are rather interesting in the metagame right now. People seem to be using these two a little more recently as they have discovered they do a good job in defeating a much wider variety of threats than just Keldeo.
Keldeo is definitely a very strong Pokemon, but that does not mean it is directly broken. For the most part this thread has turned from its original cause in debating Keldeo to a lot more different discussions, but most of them relate to how Keldeo can break up those types of teams / styles. As I have noted multiple times, Keldeo does much better against offense, as have others. Keldeo struggles more against most stall teams, and definitely has its checks and counters. However, Keldeo can definitely work around its checks rather well. As Lord Of Bay's has noted Latios, Latias, and Starmie are checks, and not counters due to Keldeo's beautiful Icy Wind + Hidden Power Bug combo. Now prediction is a bit overrated quite often, as nobody has perfect prediction and can always come out on top in these situations through prediction. Prediction is very subjective as one person may not react the same way as somebody else, and you can never really 100% be sure you'll beat Keldeo's typical offensive checks. However, the actual "counters" Keldeo has are much more defensive and solid. As you have seen, Keldeo mostly does better against its more commonly offensive checks than defensive counters, which clearly shows how Keldeo preforms against offense v stall. Keldeo can't break through these Pokemon without some decent support, so it is unfair to say Keldeo is un-counterable, because its not. Amoonguss, Bulky Toxicroak, Tentacruel, and Jellicent (although Jellicent can be broken up very quickly, so maybe it is a more "check" than counter, but HP Ghost is not too dangerous). This is why I say Keldeo does much better against offense than stall, as the majority of its counters are indeed defensive, except for Toxicroak, who is usually seen on Rain Offense instead.
Now of course this will bring up the issue of "limiting teambuilding" for offense, as stall has less problems than offense with Keldeo, and doesn't need to worry nearly as much. Now I will be the first to say I DO think Keldeo does limit teambuilding quite a bit for offense, and maybe even a little for stall. But to be honest this isn't really a definite argument to ban Keldeo. Quite a lot of things "limit teambuilding" and to be honest, I don't think Keldeo is the #1 Pokemon in that regard. A lot of today's top threats limit teambuilding, and although Keldeo definitely is very powerful and does certainly pose a huge threat to most standard offensive teams, I don't think this is enough to warrant a ban. However, I do respect how Keldeo is very well one of offenses biggest problems, and Scarf versions can tear it apart pretty badly, much worse than the average Pokemon in the metagame. It is harder to wear Keldeo down through passive damage, and overall it has what it needs to combat offense effectively. This is where I kind of differ, as this does raise the question that Keldeo is unhealthy for the metagame. This test has been pretty conflicting, especially because of how Landorus-I was basically being discussed for banning on the same grounds. If Keldeo did get a momentum gaining move like U-Turn, then I would definitely be voting ban as it ultimately results in an even better way of defeating its counters with ease, but thankfully it doesn't.
We basically have two sides to this problem, one saying Keldeo limits offensive (and sometimes defensive) teambuilding especially, is unhealthy for the metagame, and basically can handle the majority of its common offensive checks by itself given proper prediction. Then we have the side saying Keldeo is not broken and shouldn't be banned because it is handled and not too hard to defeat, it just needs adjustment and is not as horrible as everybody thinks it is. As undisputed noted, both Specs and Scarf Keldeo can be easily exploited. It may even be good for the metagame as it can additionally balance and revenge some of the metagame's top threats. Its counters are very solid and all have a way to Recover, which makes it easy for them to continuosly switch in and beat Keldeo consistently.
At this point, I agree with undisputed and Ojama. It looks like Keldeo isn't being banned, and it has pretty good reasoning behind it. Pursuiting is a much harder game to play without U-Turn to aid you, and double switching it a much harder practice to do. Keldeo may actually aid the metagame in bringing out some more variety in the metagame such as Amoonguss and Slowking, who are rather interesting in the metagame right now. People seem to be using these two a little more recently as they have discovered they do a good job in defeating a much wider variety of threats than just Keldeo.
My thoughts on the two ladders now that I have reqs:
The main team I use is a Rain team with Scarf Keldeo on it, so that's what I used on Current. On Suspect, I used essentially the same team, but with Scarf Analytic Starmie (with Surf, Ice Beam, Thunder and Hydro Pump) instead. Gotta say, it functioned almost exactly the same. I had to get a little more damage on the opposing team before I went for the Surf cleanup, but it was basically just as good of a revenge killer, actually gave alternate cleanup win conditions with its coverage moves, and hit really hard thanks to Analytic. Yes, my team became a little weaker to Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B, but it also now had an easier time with Jellicent. There were also the advantages of surprise value (Scarf Starmie is really rare), outspeeding Scarf Latios and not having to speed tie against Scarf Terrakion, and just the presence of Starmie on my team discouraging the opponent to lay hazards to an extent (they don't know I don't have Rapid Spin).
All of that said, Keldeo was better for the team, obviously (otherwise I'd be using Starmie on the regular team). The extra power, and resistances to Stealth Rock, U-Turn and Pursuit (as opposed to weakness to the latter two) were the main reasons for that (as well as Secret Sword to an extent, but that was basically a coverage trade-off). But the point is that it was replaceable, and that its replacement, though not quite as effective, was in the same league as far as revenge killing and lategame cleaning was concerned.
I don't have experience using the Specs or Expert Belt sets, so I won't theorymon about them. I'll talk about what I do know, which is fighting against them, as well as against the Scarf set:
The main team I use only has Toxicroak for a Keldeo counter, and it performs just fine. Because I use a variation of Swords Dance Toxicroak, it's true that it is 2HKOed by Specs HP Ghost (or Ice or Electric) after Stealth Rock (Bulk Up sets aren't, by the way), but that's a lot easier to do on paper than in practice. For one thing, they have to predict the switch (not all that hard, admittedly), and for another, I'll just switch out to Ferrothorn or Jirachi. Toxicroak is still alive, which discourages Hydro Pump or Surf spam, and it's a lot riskier for the opponent to use Hidden Power next time, since I now know the set, and might not switch. Also, because of Dry Skin and Drain Punch, and beating common Keldeo partners (Tentacruel, most Politoed, most Tyranitar), Toxicroak has a good chance of coming in later and gaining back the health it lost anyway.
And as far as Scarf, E-Belt and Calm Mind sets are concerned, Toxicroak counters them fully, which means that as long as I play intelligently with Toxicroak, I never have much trouble with Keldeo unless the opponent legitimately outplays me. And I use a balance team, so I disagree with people who say that Keldeo is awful for balance to fight.
I know that these are very specific examples of using/replacing/dealing with Keldeo, and obviously don't apply to everyone. I'm not advising everyone to replace Keldeo with Starmie on the Suspect ladder, or to use Toxicroak as their Keldeo counter, I'm just giving my experiences about it. Other people have given their experiences about how they use Jellicent or Latias to beat it, and collectively, these experiences give much better insight about using/dealing with Keldeo than a bunch of theorymoning does.
But yeah, I'm very much convinced that Keldeo is not broken. It has hard counters that are both common and have access to recovery, and though many are Pursuit-weak, most have a way around it, and even for ones that don't, it's not like Keldeo has U-Turn, so risk and skill are needed to trap and beat them. And the stuff about Keldeo beating its own counters is bullshit, because even though it can 2hko a lot of them with the correct item and Hidden Power, they won't stay in to take the second hit, and can come back and recover later, as well as discourage water spam simply by still being alive. A Keldeo-less metagame (a real one, not the Suspect Test one, since most people would have used existing Keldeo-less teams or found a replacement like I did) wouldn't look that different to the metagame with Keldeo. Most of its counters would still be used to counter rain. One of the only significant changes would be a probable rise in Ferrothorn usage, since it would become a much better rain counter. I think a lot of the people who believe that Keldeo is broken are still thinking of Keldeo in the context of the LandKeldTar metagame, where there was a much better case for its brokenness, with it and Landorus overloading their shared counters, and Landorus U-Turning into Tyranitar to trap and kill them.
Also, just a nitpick: E-Belt Icy Wind + HP Bug even with Stealth Rock and Sandstorm can't 2hko Latias. Some residual damage is needed on top of that. Not a big deal, but I think that needed clarifying. And things like Latias to an E-Belt set and Jellicent to a Specs set can serve as checks even when they're weakened to the point that they can't counter, and then Recover so they can counter again next time. And since Keldeo's counters are much easier to bring in than Keldeo is (obviously, since they're defensive and it's offensive), getting them in and getting health back isn't too difficult a task.
PS. I feel like with the 2-1 ratio requirement gone, it's way too easy for people to get reqs, since the ladder is ridiculously inflated. It would be difficult not to be at 2000±60 after playing enough games.
The main team I use is a Rain team with Scarf Keldeo on it, so that's what I used on Current. On Suspect, I used essentially the same team, but with Scarf Analytic Starmie (with Surf, Ice Beam, Thunder and Hydro Pump) instead. Gotta say, it functioned almost exactly the same. I had to get a little more damage on the opposing team before I went for the Surf cleanup, but it was basically just as good of a revenge killer, actually gave alternate cleanup win conditions with its coverage moves, and hit really hard thanks to Analytic. Yes, my team became a little weaker to Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B, but it also now had an easier time with Jellicent. There were also the advantages of surprise value (Scarf Starmie is really rare), outspeeding Scarf Latios and not having to speed tie against Scarf Terrakion, and just the presence of Starmie on my team discouraging the opponent to lay hazards to an extent (they don't know I don't have Rapid Spin).
All of that said, Keldeo was better for the team, obviously (otherwise I'd be using Starmie on the regular team). The extra power, and resistances to Stealth Rock, U-Turn and Pursuit (as opposed to weakness to the latter two) were the main reasons for that (as well as Secret Sword to an extent, but that was basically a coverage trade-off). But the point is that it was replaceable, and that its replacement, though not quite as effective, was in the same league as far as revenge killing and lategame cleaning was concerned.
I don't have experience using the Specs or Expert Belt sets, so I won't theorymon about them. I'll talk about what I do know, which is fighting against them, as well as against the Scarf set:
The main team I use only has Toxicroak for a Keldeo counter, and it performs just fine. Because I use a variation of Swords Dance Toxicroak, it's true that it is 2HKOed by Specs HP Ghost (or Ice or Electric) after Stealth Rock (Bulk Up sets aren't, by the way), but that's a lot easier to do on paper than in practice. For one thing, they have to predict the switch (not all that hard, admittedly), and for another, I'll just switch out to Ferrothorn or Jirachi. Toxicroak is still alive, which discourages Hydro Pump or Surf spam, and it's a lot riskier for the opponent to use Hidden Power next time, since I now know the set, and might not switch. Also, because of Dry Skin and Drain Punch, and beating common Keldeo partners (Tentacruel, most Politoed, most Tyranitar), Toxicroak has a good chance of coming in later and gaining back the health it lost anyway.
And as far as Scarf, E-Belt and Calm Mind sets are concerned, Toxicroak counters them fully, which means that as long as I play intelligently with Toxicroak, I never have much trouble with Keldeo unless the opponent legitimately outplays me. And I use a balance team, so I disagree with people who say that Keldeo is awful for balance to fight.
I know that these are very specific examples of using/replacing/dealing with Keldeo, and obviously don't apply to everyone. I'm not advising everyone to replace Keldeo with Starmie on the Suspect ladder, or to use Toxicroak as their Keldeo counter, I'm just giving my experiences about it. Other people have given their experiences about how they use Jellicent or Latias to beat it, and collectively, these experiences give much better insight about using/dealing with Keldeo than a bunch of theorymoning does.
But yeah, I'm very much convinced that Keldeo is not broken. It has hard counters that are both common and have access to recovery, and though many are Pursuit-weak, most have a way around it, and even for ones that don't, it's not like Keldeo has U-Turn, so risk and skill are needed to trap and beat them. And the stuff about Keldeo beating its own counters is bullshit, because even though it can 2hko a lot of them with the correct item and Hidden Power, they won't stay in to take the second hit, and can come back and recover later, as well as discourage water spam simply by still being alive. A Keldeo-less metagame (a real one, not the Suspect Test one, since most people would have used existing Keldeo-less teams or found a replacement like I did) wouldn't look that different to the metagame with Keldeo. Most of its counters would still be used to counter rain. One of the only significant changes would be a probable rise in Ferrothorn usage, since it would become a much better rain counter. I think a lot of the people who believe that Keldeo is broken are still thinking of Keldeo in the context of the LandKeldTar metagame, where there was a much better case for its brokenness, with it and Landorus overloading their shared counters, and Landorus U-Turning into Tyranitar to trap and kill them.
Also, just a nitpick: E-Belt Icy Wind + HP Bug even with Stealth Rock and Sandstorm can't 2hko Latias. Some residual damage is needed on top of that. Not a big deal, but I think that needed clarifying. And things like Latias to an E-Belt set and Jellicent to a Specs set can serve as checks even when they're weakened to the point that they can't counter, and then Recover so they can counter again next time. And since Keldeo's counters are much easier to bring in than Keldeo is (obviously, since they're defensive and it's offensive), getting them in and getting health back isn't too difficult a task.
PS. I feel like with the 2-1 ratio requirement gone, it's way too easy for people to get reqs, since the ladder is ridiculously inflated. It would be difficult not to be at 2000±60 after playing enough games.
I just got the reqs a few hours ago and the current ladder is just fucking inflated. That still didn't make it easier as my stupic deviation refused to drop(i was at 2500+ glicko2 once after 20 matches) and i didn't think that by repeatedly forfeiting my deviation would drop enough and i would go below 2000 glicko2. Since I am a dumbshit, I didn't really use keldeo much; i laddered with ben's TR team on suspect(go ahead, laugh at me) and shuffled between that and a team I made up, which consisted of keldeo and was meh b/c i didn't put much thought into it. Imo keldeo just isn't broken. It can get around its checks and counters, but predicting stuff like that, easy as it seems, turns out to be hard. Most of the time, I just spam rain-boosted hydro pump to hope for the 2HKO; however, as hydro pimp said keldeo and starmie are similar as late game sweepers. Being the genius that I am, I ran both on the same team and found myself lategame sweeping with starmie a lot more. Granted, it was due to starmie running surf and keldeo running hydro pump and i love accuracy, but starmie also didn't need to be locked into moves and analytic was an amazingly good ability turning it from an offensive spinner with a decent(100 special attack is lower than INFERNAPE for god's sake) special attack and great speed to a fearsome late game sweeper. Also outspeeding lati's was sexy for
So all in all, keldeo is one of the best OU pokemon, no doubt, but also in a way it has helped check threats like scizor, heatran, volcarona and lucario(survives a +2 espeed, not very well but still) as well as revenge killing a slew of threats. Has it changed the metagame? No doubt. But it doesn't break the metagame like landorus-i did(FRIZY IT WAS BROKEN OK?).
tl;dr gonna vote not ban XD
Also, I think that keldeo easily won't be banned and it's not as much of a discussion as landorus was(like seriously landorus discussions were like everywhere). So yeah, Keldeo gonna stay OU(i laddered in suspect with an alt called KeldeoforOU XD)
EDIT- Yeah jukain, you're right I guess. The ratio was probably better.
So all in all, keldeo is one of the best OU pokemon, no doubt, but also in a way it has helped check threats like scizor, heatran, volcarona and lucario(survives a +2 espeed, not very well but still) as well as revenge killing a slew of threats. Has it changed the metagame? No doubt. But it doesn't break the metagame like landorus-i did(FRIZY IT WAS BROKEN OK?).
tl;dr gonna vote not ban XD
Also, I think that keldeo easily won't be banned and it's not as much of a discussion as landorus was(like seriously landorus discussions were like everywhere). So yeah, Keldeo gonna stay OU(i laddered in suspect with an alt called KeldeoforOU XD)
EDIT- Yeah jukain, you're right I guess. The ratio was probably better.
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Stone RG
Megas are broke
So after laddering through the **** that is the ladder, getting umbreon teams in the 2500, i can pretty much say pony isnt broken. Most people overestimate the power of the ebelt set, saying it scores 2-3 kills easily, or that it turns fool proof counters to dust, which could not be farther from the truth. Of course, if you're playing the percentage of the ladder that i just mentioned, its common for keldeo to sweep team that easily.
In reality, and by that i mean going against players that know what they're doing, its pretty easy to know when keld is scarf or ebelt, the most used sets, albeit not the most outright dangerous imo, since half of its moveset reveals the set: icy wind/hidden power ice and surf/hidden power bug. Also, watching the teammates and how people play the keldeo is a pretty easy way to figure out the set early game, since both sets have completely different purposes. For example in the current ladder, whenever i saw keldeo at first i thought it was scarf, however i saw an increase in the use of scarf lando t, and imo, if you see another scarfer, chances that pony is scarf himself are slim to none.
Well, if your opponent just doesnt give hints of keld's set and you're in a bad situation, then, is he really gonna sweep you with the surprise factor? Guys, we're talking about a pokemon that has 5 usable moves, 8 if you count in the number of viable hidden powers. Yes, i agree that pony uses hidden power to its advantage extremely well, but, if you realize, it has a pathetic damage output. Celebi is the only counter that realistically can fall to expert belt keldeo, others like Latias, Amoongus, Jellicent, Toxicroak (unless HP psychic of course) and Jirachi to an extent, cannot be passed over by keldeo in any way without significant prior damage. Im not saying the set is bad at all, its good as a lure, and at late game sweeping, but is overrated in the former.
I dont want to post calcs, put actually, keldeo doesnt have the damage output usually to get past teams with his counters without some real help from his partners, and even the scarf set, imo the best late game sweeper in the current meta, needs the opposing common threats or checks away or severely weakened for him, namely latios, dragonite, rotom w, etc.
When it comes to the rain subject, while keld does put extreme pressure to the opponent, its just another rain abuser, suffering from the common rain nuke problems, toxicroak, celebi, tentacruel, need i go further? Rain doesn't inherently go with pony (which is the reason i rather having something that cooperates in eliminating his counters, aka ttar).
Yes, keldeo changed a lot of the sets in the ou tier, it also forces us to use a rain counter, not exactly for the weather itself, but for the pony, so? A lot of pokemon have forced us into specific sets, there's a reason lando t is used so much, or sp defensive jirachi.
TL; DR: Keldeo doesnt have the damage output by himself to push past foolproof counters; the ebelt set is incredibly overrated when taking out counters, and generally needs support to function well as the late game sweeper. I dont think we're banning pony just for his revenge killing potential.
In reality, and by that i mean going against players that know what they're doing, its pretty easy to know when keld is scarf or ebelt, the most used sets, albeit not the most outright dangerous imo, since half of its moveset reveals the set: icy wind/hidden power ice and surf/hidden power bug. Also, watching the teammates and how people play the keldeo is a pretty easy way to figure out the set early game, since both sets have completely different purposes. For example in the current ladder, whenever i saw keldeo at first i thought it was scarf, however i saw an increase in the use of scarf lando t, and imo, if you see another scarfer, chances that pony is scarf himself are slim to none.
Well, if your opponent just doesnt give hints of keld's set and you're in a bad situation, then, is he really gonna sweep you with the surprise factor? Guys, we're talking about a pokemon that has 5 usable moves, 8 if you count in the number of viable hidden powers. Yes, i agree that pony uses hidden power to its advantage extremely well, but, if you realize, it has a pathetic damage output. Celebi is the only counter that realistically can fall to expert belt keldeo, others like Latias, Amoongus, Jellicent, Toxicroak (unless HP psychic of course) and Jirachi to an extent, cannot be passed over by keldeo in any way without significant prior damage. Im not saying the set is bad at all, its good as a lure, and at late game sweeping, but is overrated in the former.
I dont want to post calcs, put actually, keldeo doesnt have the damage output usually to get past teams with his counters without some real help from his partners, and even the scarf set, imo the best late game sweeper in the current meta, needs the opposing common threats or checks away or severely weakened for him, namely latios, dragonite, rotom w, etc.
When it comes to the rain subject, while keld does put extreme pressure to the opponent, its just another rain abuser, suffering from the common rain nuke problems, toxicroak, celebi, tentacruel, need i go further? Rain doesn't inherently go with pony (which is the reason i rather having something that cooperates in eliminating his counters, aka ttar).
Yes, keldeo changed a lot of the sets in the ou tier, it also forces us to use a rain counter, not exactly for the weather itself, but for the pony, so? A lot of pokemon have forced us into specific sets, there's a reason lando t is used so much, or sp defensive jirachi.
TL; DR: Keldeo doesnt have the damage output by himself to push past foolproof counters; the ebelt set is incredibly overrated when taking out counters, and generally needs support to function well as the late game sweeper. I dont think we're banning pony just for his revenge killing potential.
@Kingler12345
The 2-1 ratio ensures that voters have a bare minimum level of competency. Let's face it -- a player with a 2-1 ratio on the ladder is not an extremely good player. It does not take so much work, particularly with the lower skill on the OU Current ladder, to achieve such a ratio. A typical decently knowledgeable battler can easily get reqs given he/she is willing to play the battles. The 2-1 ratio combats ladder inflation in ensuring that players win and don't just piggyback off the inflation.
Note that I will not make a long, drawn out argument about this -- I am illustrating why the 2-1 ratio can work. We don't have it now, but it isn't bad as a concept. As for your issues with the ladder, I assure you that work is being done to fix the problems.
I've already posted tl;dr paragraphs on Keldeo, so I'll spare you all that this time. And again, sorry if I came off as abrasive or rude.
Sorry if this comes off as rude, but reasoning like this disgusts me. You play 60-70 battles to get your deviation down. That does not qualify as "a fuckload of time". That qualifies as "playing the game so you actually know what the hell you're talking about". Forfeiting inherently takes no skill. You shouldn't be voting if your honest perspective is that you are reducing the voter quality. In order to be a good player/voter, you have to WIN.
The 2-1 ratio ensures that voters have a bare minimum level of competency. Let's face it -- a player with a 2-1 ratio on the ladder is not an extremely good player. It does not take so much work, particularly with the lower skill on the OU Current ladder, to achieve such a ratio. A typical decently knowledgeable battler can easily get reqs given he/she is willing to play the battles. The 2-1 ratio combats ladder inflation in ensuring that players win and don't just piggyback off the inflation.
Note that I will not make a long, drawn out argument about this -- I am illustrating why the 2-1 ratio can work. We don't have it now, but it isn't bad as a concept. As for your issues with the ladder, I assure you that work is being done to fix the problems.
I've already posted tl;dr paragraphs on Keldeo, so I'll spare you all that this time. And again, sorry if I came off as abrasive or rude.
Hmm.....I read your paragraph and understand the reasoning, combatting deviation with the ratio seems good. The lando-i ladder wasn't nearly as inflated, so I see why it's being implemented now. Thanks for the reply, and no, you didn't come off as rude :)
Edited that out, it DID sound pretty dumb. Also, anyone who has gotten reqs imo has had an experience with pony(i didn't use it much now but i still used it and know its capabilities)
Also, the reason I was so tired is because I laddered for like 5+ hours in a row when my deviation was 100 or so. After that, it became 70 o.0
That was on suspect. Current imo should have been the exact same but with 2200 glicko2 requirement so forfeiting could still be kept to a minimum.
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Er, maybe if you play HO you will get thru it fast.
If you play balanced/stall and match up with other balanced/stall teams, matches can easily take 15-20mins. 60 x 15mins is over half a day sitting and your computer doing nothing but showdown, something that isn't fun when you are trying to get reqs.
I don't know about everyone else, but I work 45+ hrs a week, and 60 matches takes a fair while to complete.
Everyone will trend towards 1:1 ratio if they consistently match up with players around their skill level.
To get 2:1 you need ladder luck, and not getting a haxxed streak. I had quite a few RN-GGs while laddering, while matching into players like Ben Gay and Water Tribe pretty much every other match.
This is why rating is a lot more telling than ratio, but unfortunately very messed up when ladders reset.
After getting reqs on the current ladder I've almost completed them on the suspect one so I thought I'd add my 2 cents.
While I do believe that Keldeo is an extremely powerful Pokemon under its favored weather condition and it does have some ways to bypass its counters / checks, it simply isn't overpowered. Keldeo not only possesses a vulnerability to Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sandstorm, Hail and status damage but also suffers from its inability to vary much in its standard sets. As mentioned, Keldeo pretty much has five usable moves and there is no exception to the fact that every single set that it can run does have a counter. Furthermore, Keldeo's shortcomings are compounded when you take into account the number of offensive checks that can also scare it out or rather simply OHKO it. Rotom-Wash, Latias, Latios, Venusaur, etc. can all target Keldeo super-effectively for a simple revenge kill. Or, in the latter's case, take advantage of the switch and begin a sweep with a Growth boost.
While each Choice Keldeo set has a unique power which it holds over other water abusers, these bonuses must not be thought of as one but rather separately. People mention that Keldeo's brokenness derives from its ability to reach unchasable speeds with a Choice Scarf or damage any switch-in with the Specs Set; however, these sets are both locked into single moves (which is easily taken advantage of) and lack the speed of the former or power of the latter.
The Ebelt set is grossly overestimated in its ability to deal damage. Expert Belt leaves Keldeo with both reduced power and reduced speed in comparison to the Choice sets and, because Keldeo is limited to one Hidden Power, it is pretty simple to stop. Of course, many may argue that the difficulty of facing Keldeo dwells under the fact that you 'never know what set it's going to use'. This is a poor argument as, because many sets can be identified from team preview or a tiny bit of scouting, it's not like you'll never find out. Besides: it's an expert belt set! It's meant to pull a bluff in the trade off of other advantages which, for some reason, are the only things that pro-ban people are looking at simultaneously rather than separately.
Moreover, Keldeo is often portrayed as being able to simply bypass its counters through the use of Hidden Powers or Pursuit support for Tyranitar. It must be considered that if Keldeo opts to gain Tyranitar support, it lacks the power of rain boosts. If Keldeo opts to choose one Hidden Power, it misses out hitting another one of its checks / counters. For example, if you choose HP Bug to nail Celebi: congrats. Now you're even more walled by Jellicent and his friends. This isn't to say that Pursuit support is limited to Tyranitar (as there are other viable Pursuit users like Scizor) but instead to highlight that people shouldn't merge the 'ridiculous power of Keldeo + Ttar' and the power of Keldeo's water moves under Drizzle. It must also be noted that there are many Pokemon (such as Lucario) can take great advantage of Choice-locked Pursuit users.
Finally, it is often discussed that Keldeo is a massive strain on team building due to the fact that it forces you to run Pokemon that you wouldn't typically run or add an extra water resist; however, this is simply not a solid reason to ban Keldeo. This pony is no outlier which causes you to run one or two checks - there are plenty of (arguably more threatening) Pokemon that can cause you to run counter/checks. Also, many of the Pokemon that can check/counter Keldeo have a myriad of other uses. For example, Celebi is a great all-around Pokemon for taking specially offensive attacks from many teams. Latias is another example of a Pokemon that also pulls its weight very well but can also be a strong asset to a team. Adding water-resists to your team isn't anything new; if you didn't have a water resist in the first place your team was doomed anyway. There are many other Pokemon such as Starmie which force people to run Water-resists, too. Banning Keldeo won't solve the problem of the metagame being too 'offensively-minded'. That is simply not something that can be changed from the banning of one (or two) Pokemon.
These are just my opinions, though. I'm most likely going to be voting for Keldeo to stay in OU unless I'm swayed otherwise by significant evidence.
While I do believe that Keldeo is an extremely powerful Pokemon under its favored weather condition and it does have some ways to bypass its counters / checks, it simply isn't overpowered. Keldeo not only possesses a vulnerability to Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sandstorm, Hail and status damage but also suffers from its inability to vary much in its standard sets. As mentioned, Keldeo pretty much has five usable moves and there is no exception to the fact that every single set that it can run does have a counter. Furthermore, Keldeo's shortcomings are compounded when you take into account the number of offensive checks that can also scare it out or rather simply OHKO it. Rotom-Wash, Latias, Latios, Venusaur, etc. can all target Keldeo super-effectively for a simple revenge kill. Or, in the latter's case, take advantage of the switch and begin a sweep with a Growth boost.
While each Choice Keldeo set has a unique power which it holds over other water abusers, these bonuses must not be thought of as one but rather separately. People mention that Keldeo's brokenness derives from its ability to reach unchasable speeds with a Choice Scarf or damage any switch-in with the Specs Set; however, these sets are both locked into single moves (which is easily taken advantage of) and lack the speed of the former or power of the latter.
The Ebelt set is grossly overestimated in its ability to deal damage. Expert Belt leaves Keldeo with both reduced power and reduced speed in comparison to the Choice sets and, because Keldeo is limited to one Hidden Power, it is pretty simple to stop. Of course, many may argue that the difficulty of facing Keldeo dwells under the fact that you 'never know what set it's going to use'. This is a poor argument as, because many sets can be identified from team preview or a tiny bit of scouting, it's not like you'll never find out. Besides: it's an expert belt set! It's meant to pull a bluff in the trade off of other advantages which, for some reason, are the only things that pro-ban people are looking at simultaneously rather than separately.
Moreover, Keldeo is often portrayed as being able to simply bypass its counters through the use of Hidden Powers or Pursuit support for Tyranitar. It must be considered that if Keldeo opts to gain Tyranitar support, it lacks the power of rain boosts. If Keldeo opts to choose one Hidden Power, it misses out hitting another one of its checks / counters. For example, if you choose HP Bug to nail Celebi: congrats. Now you're even more walled by Jellicent and his friends. This isn't to say that Pursuit support is limited to Tyranitar (as there are other viable Pursuit users like Scizor) but instead to highlight that people shouldn't merge the 'ridiculous power of Keldeo + Ttar' and the power of Keldeo's water moves under Drizzle. It must also be noted that there are many Pokemon (such as Lucario) can take great advantage of Choice-locked Pursuit users.
Finally, it is often discussed that Keldeo is a massive strain on team building due to the fact that it forces you to run Pokemon that you wouldn't typically run or add an extra water resist; however, this is simply not a solid reason to ban Keldeo. This pony is no outlier which causes you to run one or two checks - there are plenty of (arguably more threatening) Pokemon that can cause you to run counter/checks. Also, many of the Pokemon that can check/counter Keldeo have a myriad of other uses. For example, Celebi is a great all-around Pokemon for taking specially offensive attacks from many teams. Latias is another example of a Pokemon that also pulls its weight very well but can also be a strong asset to a team. Adding water-resists to your team isn't anything new; if you didn't have a water resist in the first place your team was doomed anyway. There are many other Pokemon such as Starmie which force people to run Water-resists, too. Banning Keldeo won't solve the problem of the metagame being too 'offensively-minded'. That is simply not something that can be changed from the banning of one (or two) Pokemon.
These are just my opinions, though. I'm most likely going to be voting for Keldeo to stay in OU unless I'm swayed otherwise by significant evidence.
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I disagree with you. Let's assume we are talking about Mewtwo and GSC OU. Mewtwo can pretty much break through any wall in GSC OU. If we were to leave it in OU, then the viability of offense would go much higher, as Mewtwo would be running everywhere, oliberating everything in sight. This is obviously theorymonning, but I am only addressing that a metagame can be drastically changes by simply banning one or two Pokemon.
Sure, banning Keldeo will not single-handedly change the metagame's offensive nature. However, I do think it is broken. Choice Scarf and Expert Belt are just the two most-common sets available. There are other less seen, yet effective sets that will send you to hell and back. I am a personal fan of the Calm Mind + 3 Attacks, as it often puts a lot of pressure on the opponent's team should it lack a faster Psyshock user, especially in the rain:
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 175-207 (57.94 - 68.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now you do struggle a bit more with Celebi if you don't run Life Orb, but that is not the point. Keldeo itself causes too many Pokemon problems to not ban it. The Expert Belt and Choice Scarf sets are not the only sets out there, and Keldeo can do all sorts of things to beat out its checks and counters. If Landorus gets the ban, so should Keldeo.
You know, something I've never understood is how people literally say
"Hey, look at this calc:
attacker vs defender under conditions: x-y"
and then pronounce that they've just proved that attacker is broken and expect us all to pat them on the back and give them a few badges to acknowledge their services to Smogon. Showing us a few calcs proves absolutely nothing (in fact all the above calc proves is that Latias can check even the strongest Keldeo set??????). I mean come on guys, if Keldeo is actually broken you should be able to make a better case than "it can do 60% to Latias LOL".
I don't actually have a strong opinion on whether Keldeo should be banned (which is why I didn't bother getting reqs), but whenever I read one of these threads I'm astounded by how people think that a handful of calcs and a couple of paragraphs of vague generalities that achieve the goal of making it sound like they know what they're talking about when they actually don't constitutes a sound argument for banning something.
"Hey, look at this calc:
attacker vs defender under conditions: x-y"
and then pronounce that they've just proved that attacker is broken and expect us all to pat them on the back and give them a few badges to acknowledge their services to Smogon. Showing us a few calcs proves absolutely nothing (in fact all the above calc proves is that Latias can check even the strongest Keldeo set??????). I mean come on guys, if Keldeo is actually broken you should be able to make a better case than "it can do 60% to Latias LOL".
I don't actually have a strong opinion on whether Keldeo should be banned (which is why I didn't bother getting reqs), but whenever I read one of these threads I'm astounded by how people think that a handful of calcs and a couple of paragraphs of vague generalities that achieve the goal of making it sound like they know what they're talking about when they actually don't constitutes a sound argument for banning something.
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I know what you mean tab, but I think the point some of them are trying to make is "Hey, this top tier special wall is taking over 50% from an attack under fairly common conditions from this Pokemon, how the hell does it make any sense that we keep such a powerful Pokemon?" Now, that particular calculation is flawed in that Latias has zero defensive investment, and even with several super effective attacks (Icy Wind, HP Ghost/Bug) Keldeo struggles to 2HKO Latias, but that's the point I THINK they're trying to make.
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