np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]

[FrostFire]

Uhh..........it's about latias/[insert check/counter here] switching in and the keldeo user predicting on THAT TURN. That's when it's effective. Now what I've seen is that a lot of people glorify pursuit trapping as something easy to do. It's kind of funny. I'll list a few off the top of my head: reflect type has become a thing on latias, latios(shaky check to pony but still) can muscle through weakened and banded ttar, celebi just BP's, jellicent will-o's, slowking can decide to slack off stall in case of pursuit or fish for a scald burn on a switch(unreliable but so is ttar, which is what I'm trying to prove) and amoonguss just doesn't give a fuck. I'm not sure why this hasn't(to my knowledge) been brought before, but the metagame adapts to itself. This can be seen in HP bug ebelt keldeo, lures, blah blah blah, etc. As far as I can see after lando's banning, it has been doing that well with pony. I wasn't there during the tornadus-t and genesect era, so I won't bother with that, but I assume it could not adapt well and it just made it extremely unbalanced(correct me if i'm wrong). So overall, I don't see why keldeo should be banned. It has its checks and counters in place and imo the metagame is pretty good now, even if it isn't, we are talking about the pokemon in itself, and not a perfect metagame. Sooooooo no tl;drs, read through that.

Just a few things.

• Pursuit trapping isn't that hard if you're using ScarfTar, as it outspeeds Latias and Celebi; granted, because of the power loss, you start the whole 'Crunch-versus-Pursuit' mindgames, but it puts a lot of pressure on the defensive player regardless.
• Reflect-Type is only a 'thing' because of Pursuit in the first place, and it takes up a valuable moveslot that could've gone to HP Fire, Psyshock, Surf, or Sub depending on what set you're running. Soooo eh. I feel there are better ways of beating Keldeo + Ttar than Reflect Type in any case.
• Celebi can only reliably BP out of a CB Tar; It gets in a lot more trouble against Scarf Tar.
• Jellicent is good. The only comment I would make is that WoW is prone to missing at the worst times, but what can you do :/
• Slowking really isn't good in OU. If I felt that I had to run Slowking to beat Keldeo, then I'd be voting ban for sure. Fortunately I don't think that, but the whole Slowking thing should really be self-evident.
• Amoonguss is OK too, but it is unfortunately massive set-up fodder once Sleep Clause is activated. That's a problem in a meta that's so offensive; if you're going to run stall at all, you have to play it aggressively, if that makes sense. Amoonguss fails at that.

You're also correct in saying the metagame adapts, but you have to be careful what you mean by that exactly. Technically speaking, the metagame 'adapted' to Genesect by introducing the ridiculous Resttalk Shed Shell Heatran, as a means of getting around U-turn + Dugtrio trapping. The metagame will always adapt to deal with threats, but there's a difference between whether that is a good or bad adaptation, yeah?

And yes, Tornadus-T and Genesect were utterly stupid, and ridiculously easy to spam. I know I got reqs at least once pretty much by just spamming Hurricane on the ladder.

As for what this all means regarding Keldeo: the answer is kind of ehhhhhhh. It's pretty hard to handle at times, that's for sure, but I'm still not 100% convinced it's broken. Probably not going to go into all the detail too much, I think most things have been said by now.

 

[Kingler]

Just a few things.

• Pursuit trapping isn't that hard if you're using ScarfTar, as it outspeeds Latias and Celebi; granted, because of the power loss, you start the whole 'Crunch-versus-Pursuit' mindgames, but it puts a lot of pressure on the defensive player regardless.
• Reflect-Type is only a 'thing' because of Pursuit in the first place, and it takes up a valuable moveslot that could've gone to HP Fire, Psyshock, Surf, or Sub depending on what set you're running. Soooo eh. I feel there are better ways of beating Keldeo + Ttar than Reflect Type in any case.
• Celebi can only reliably BP out of a CB Tar; It gets in a lot more trouble against Scarf Tar.
• Jellicent is good. The only comment I would make is that WoW is prone to missing at the worst times, but what can you do :/
• Slowking really isn't good in OU. If I felt that I had to run Slowking to beat Keldeo, then I'd be voting ban for sure. Fortunately I don't think that, but the whole Slowking thing should really be self-evident.
• Amoonguss is OK too, but it is unfortunately massive set-up fodder once Sleep Clause is activated. That's a problem in a meta that's so offensive; if you're going to run stall at all, you have to play it aggressively, if that makes sense. Amoonguss fails at that.

You're also correct in saying the metagame adapts, but you have to be careful what you mean by that exactly. Technically speaking, the metagame 'adapted' to Genesect by introducing the ridiculous Resttalk Shed Shell Heatran, as a means of getting around U-turn + Dugtrio trapping. The metagame will always adapt to deal with threats, but there's a difference between whether that is a good or bad adaptation, yeah?

And yes, Tornadus-T and Genesect were utterly stupid, and ridiculously easy to spam. I know I got reqs at least once pretty much by just spamming Hurricane on the ladder.

As for what this all means regarding Keldeo: the answer is kind of ehhhhhhh. It's pretty hard to handle at times, that's for sure, but I'm still not 100% convinced it's broken. Probably not going to go into all the detail too much, I think most things have been said by now.

Hmm.....you raise good points. I suck at arguing at a stretch, but all I'd like to point out is:

• Pursuit trapping IS hard. Most jellicent will-o if the trainer sees ttar in team preview. Essentially two will-o's which will usually not miss twice in a row.
• Agreed, but it still IS a thing, so no pursuit trap 4 u ttar
• Celebi can still BP; I'm pretty sure crunch from a petty scarftar isn't an OHKO and it finds opportunities to recover.
• Look above; 2 will-o's still ain't gud 4 ttar lel
• Yeah, slowking sucks, but I could say the same thing in UU, where it is just basically a kingdra counter, and its big brother is usually preferred. It's essentially just a foolproof counter to keldeo and a good rain check anyway, so eh. Scarf ttar will STILL have problems pursuittrapping, js.
• Amoonguss imo is p cool though i haven't used it. So woo hoo.

The rest of the stuff I won't comment on since I was too dumb to figure out how to go on a pokemon simulator early on. Soooooo yeah i suck XD

Keldeo: I laddered for suspect under "KeldeoforOU". Banning it for sure

 

[Spinda]

Keldeo: I laddered for suspect under "KeldeoforOU". Banning it for sure

It's funny cuz I laddered for lando-i suspect under "Fuck Lando-I" and I voted no ban.

Anyway, the only reason people even use reflect type is because of pursuit ( though reflect typing a scizor when they had a scarf kyurem-b that could've revenged you otherwise is fun ), but it's not because of Keldeo, it's just because of pursuit. Now if we were suspecting Pursuit ( I wish we were, I'd ban that so hard ), I'd actually think that's a valid argument. But this isn't even an overcentralisation Keldeo is causing.

 

[Kingler]

It's funny cuz I laddered for lando-i suspect under "Fuck Lando-I" and I voted no ban.

Anyway, the only reason people even use reflect type is because of pursuit ( though reflect typing a scizor when they had a kyurem-b that could've revenged you otherwise is fun ), but it's not because of Keldeo, it's just because of pursuit. Now if we were suspecting Pursuit ( I wish we were, I'd ban that so hard ), I'd actually think that's a valid argument. But this isn't even an overcentralisation Keldeo is causing.

I'm just arguing against all those people who think it's just easy to slap on a ttar and pony and be broken on the ladder. Reflect type is just an example that most keldeo checks can get around ttar in their own devious ways.

 

[Bughouse]

And if KeldTar didn't exist as a core, do you really think Latias would ever be running Reflect Type?

This is a classic example of a strategy being so powerful that even checks/counters might want to do silly things... like Shed Shell Rest Talk Heatran to beat Genesect + Dugtrio. This isn't as silly and specialized as that, but it is still pretty silly. Just because it CAN use Reflect Type doesn't mean we should desire a metagame where it has to.

 

[haunter]

Reflect type Latias\Starmie existed even before Keldeo was released as Tyranitar and Scizor were already extremely popular. Let's not make it look like people started to run gimmicks specifically to counter Keldeo.

 

[Kingler]

And if KeldTar didn't exist as a core, do you really think Latias would ever be running Reflect Type?

This is a classic example of a strategy being so powerful that even checks/counters might want to do silly things... like Shed Shell Rest Talk Heatran to beat Genesect + Dugtrio. This isn't as silly and specialized as that, but it is still pretty silly. Just because it CAN use Reflect Type doesn't mean we should desire a metagame where it has to.

Ok. Quoting haunter's post here:

Reflect type Latias\Starmie existed even before Keldeo was released as Tyranitar and Scizor were already extremely popular. Let's not make it look like people started to run gimmicks specifically to counter Keldeo.

Also, I was stating a bunch of things preventing keldtar from being this perfect broken piece of crap people like you make it out to be(no offence). I am tired of tl;drs so I won't bother you with one, but aldaron's proposal stated that the suspect test was to figure out if the pokemon was broken or not, not desire for a perfect metagame in a suspecttest, so please don't go out of context as you did with your last line.

 

[Jukain]

And if KeldTar didn't exist as a core, do you really think Latias would ever be running Reflect Type?

This is a classic example of a strategy being so powerful that even checks/counters might want to do silly things... like Shed Shell Rest Talk Heatran to beat Genesect + Dugtrio. This isn't as silly and specialized as that, but it is still pretty silly. Just because it CAN use Reflect Type doesn't mean we should desire a metagame where it has to.

Genesect wasn't banned for its partnership with Dugtrio. It was banned for being nigh impossible to stop, its versatility, and ability to gain momentum in a heartbeat. While I can't see I'd ever seen Reflect Type Latias before Keldeo/Landorus + Tyranitar became so prevalent, I don't think sacrificing a moveslot is an obscene price to pay for beating one of your most dangerous enemies.

 

[rachet67]

A lot of people sat keldeo makes stall teams unviable, because of its "mixed" set. However, people can't acknowledge that some playstyles simply work better in a specific metagame than others. There's no way to have a metagame where every single play style is equally viable. I could make the argument that skarmory makes baton pass teams unviable because of its so easy just to spam whirlwind. Keldeo is a force that has to be taken into account when team building. But so are so many other pokemon, such as volcorona, sweeper venesaur, or dd dragonite. At some point by saying 'X pokemon makes me factor it in while team building, it must be banned!' you actually unnecisarily reduce the number viable pokemon to chose from in ou.

 

[FrostFire]

A lot of people sat keldeo makes stall teams unviable, because of its "mixed" set. However, people can't acknowledge that some playstyles simply work better in a specific metagame than others. There's no way to have a metagame where every single play style is equally viable. I could make the argument that skarmory makes baton pass teams unviable because of its so easy just to spam whirlwind. Keldeo is a force that has to be taken into account when team building. But so are so many other pokemon, such as volcorona, sweeper venesaur, or dd dragonite. At some point by saying 'X pokemon makes me factor it in while team building, it must be banned!' you actually unnecisarily reduce the number viable pokemon to chose from in ou.

Ehhh, I don't like how some of this is worded. I mean, I might be reading your post wrong, but I just wanted to clarify; there's a difference between specific playstyles, and the broader notion of whether a team is more defensive or offensive. If a theoretical pokemon severely hinders, say, the capability of 'defensive' team types, then the effect of that would be (theoretically) to cut down the number of viable, specific playstyles by about half (because one poke is raping one side of the offense-defense spectrum). This is actually quite important to understand, I think, because of the inherent nature of how pokemon battles work. That is, if the game is ultra-offensive, then that reduces both players' ability to switch at any point, turns every match in to a OHKO-2HKO-fest, and ultimately takes a lot of skill out of the game. Conversely, if the game is ultra-defensive, then it becomes almost impossible to play as battles can last over 100 turns (I played rain stall v. rain stall one time, the battle was over 200 turns long - no joke). Battles tend to be won and lost on bits of hax that go your way at just the right time (like getting that Scald burn on Tentacruel @_@), and they're just flat-out frustrating matches that aren't fun to play.

Those are absolute extremes of course, and I'm not saying that Keldeo does this to the meta (Read: It doesn't). It's just that when people complain about defensive teams being less viable this gen, I feel that this complaint is in the broader sense I outlined above, not a specific sense (i.e. stall alone). That is to say, I feel that gen 5 went too far towards the offense end of the spectrum, and needs to come back a bit towards the middle for gen 6. This would result in a much better metagame, I think.

So that was a bit off topic (sorry!), but it was just something that I was contemplating when I read rachet's post.

So to make this a bit more relevant to the thread: I think Keldeo is pretty unique in that it can actually threaten a broad array of offensive and defensive threats, between Scarf, Specs and E-belt. But is it broken? I've been asking myself that the whole test, and to my mind it really is right on the edge. For that reason alone, I think it probably shouldn't be banned just because 'when in doubt, don't ban' seems to be the thing to do when you're unsure. It wouldn't be unlike me to change my mind at the eleventh hour though :3

 

[rachet67]

Yeah I agree I could've worded that better. I guess I wanted to also mention that keldeo really can't make stall unviable by itself, but that, like what you said, this generation is simply much more offensive and makes stall much more difficult, even without keldeo.

 

[MilkyWay]

When are they going to post the voting thread? I thought it would be posted between the 2nd and 8th of September but they still haven't put it up yet...

 

[Subject 18]

 

[Ashura Areson]

Wouldn't separating Keldeo from Keldeo-Resolution Form help neuter Keldeo's power? Seeing as how normal form can't have Secret Sword without going into Resolution, it would make sense to ban the form rather than both states. Without Secret Sword, Keldeo's sweeping power drops as the number of things that can wall it grow.

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but I wasn't sure where else to post this.

 

[Halcyon.]

Both forms can have Secret Sword.

 

[Arcticblast]

To expand on that, Keldeo-Resolution MUST have Secret Sword, while Keldeo can have it but is not forced to have it.

 

[Meaty Man]

To expand on that, Keldeo-Resolution MUST have Secret Sword, while Keldeo can have it but is not forced to have it.

That's how the Rotom forms work with their respective moves too, right? They cannot function without them?
As for Keldeo (I haven't posted anywhere here yet on this matter) I feel like in my time playing OU, Keldeo was a major problem under the ever-OP Drizzle. However, that said it was not the major problem under Drizzle. Contrary to other messages of mine in support of or arguing against certain Pokemon, you won't find any calcs here. I simply believe that while I understand that there will almsot always be one or two cetain counters for most sets (a rising star in OU has been getting a lot of publicity for being one) I think Keldeo would still function as an above-average threat even in Ubers, unlike the versatile, devastating rain sucker it has been shown to be.

 

[Kingler]

That's how the Rotom forms work with their respective moves too, right? They cannot function without them?
As for Keldeo (I haven't posted anywhere here yet on this matter) I feel like in my time playing OU, Keldeo was a major problem under the ever-OP Drizzle. However, that said it was not the major problem under Drizzle. Contrary to other messages of mine in support of or arguing against certain Pokemon, you won't find any calcs here. I simply believe that while I understand that there will almsot always be one or two cetain counters for most sets (a rising star in OU has been getting a lot of publicity for being one) I think Keldeo would still function as an above-average threat even in Ubers, unlike the versatile, devastating rain sucker it has been shown to be.

What are you saying? The suspecttest does not count how well the Pokemon does in Ubers, but how well it does in OU. Don't base your argument on the assumption that it will be above average(which it will not, with plakia and kyogre) in Ubers. Devastating rain sucker? You're making it look like it has no counters, despite you acknowledging it.
Base your arguments properly at least.

 

[Hydro Pimp]

I find it strange that people talk about how something would function in Ubers if it were banned, since it's not like it can't be used there until it's banned from OU...

And yeah, how something would perform in Ubers is in no way indicative of whether it should be banned from OU, or even of how good it is in OU. There are Pokemon like Forretress that are arguably better in Ubers than in OU.

 

[Yuy]

before I wasn't sure about Keldeo but now I think it's kind of obvious: anything that does 70% or so to about the entire meta is bad for the game, especially at 108 base speed. specs keldeo is bad for the game.

 

[Kingler]

before I wasn't sure about Keldeo but now I think it's kind of obvious: anything that does 70% or so to about the entire meta is bad for the game, especially at 108 base speed. specs keldeo is bad for the game.

Latias, Celebi, Latios, Rotom-W, Slowking, Amoonguss and Tentacruel exist, you know -_-
That's just to name a handful

 

[haunter]

Voting thread is up in Policy Review.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

before I wasn't sure about Keldeo but now I think it's kind of obvious: anything that does 70% or so to about the entire meta is bad for the game, especially at 108 base speed. specs keldeo is bad for the game.

By your definition of whats broken, a lot of Pokemon in BW2 are broken. Starmie, Terrakion, Venusaur, Volc, Landorus-T, and many others are broken. While you're free to think this, being able to do 70% to the majority of the metagame (with the best conditions, because you're already assuming this for Keldeo) doesn't make a Pokemon broken.

 

[haunter]

We're still missing 36 votes. Hurry up if you haven't voted yet, I'm going to close the voting thread in 24 hours.

 

[tehy]

Terrakion was already considered for a ban at some point, and although I understand all the reasons it's not relevant, it's still worth mentioning. Also...Landorus-T, main STAB having an immunity...*shrugs*

Starmie is that analytic set, which sacrifices what is a swagged-out ability for starmie in a scald and bulkytran-filled metagame, plus it still has to actually PREDICT.

Venusaur always has hard or near-hard counters, and needs to set up. Same goes for Volcarona.

...Landorus-T? Gravity set, maybe, but that still has counters AND needs to set up.

I played a good battler with rain specs Keldeo and it basically trashed my team with a little damage on SpDlebi if i didn't sac something. The first time I did, the second time I didn't. Can you guess which time I lost and which time I won?

Of course i abstained so w/e but you get the idea:keldeo can power through basically everything with its first STAB move, and with a little assist from coverage moves, can trash the stuff it can't just hydro pump

Edit:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.78%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

Substitute 'any 12% damage' for 'spikes' and get SR down (or just get spikes too) and SpDlebi can't take two. So...yes. Yes, it can.