While Conk is usually not considered the best fighting type in OU (he's pretty good, and is probably the best bulky attacker in OU, but I digress). Anyways, I don't see why you would use a bulky-attacking Gallade set when Conkeldurr has better stats for a Bulk Up set, with 105 HP / 140 Atk / 95 Def / 65 SpD to Gallade's 68 HP / 125 Atk / 65 Def / 115 SpD. Also, Conkeldurr resists Dark, so he can switch in on T-tar very easily. The speed issue isn't a huge deal because although slow as all hell, Conk has mach punch, and definitely can perform a late game sweep easier with STAB mach punch over Shadow Sneak. Conkeldurr also hits way harder because of Guts or Sheer Force. I don't see why I would want to use Bulk Up Gallade over Bulk Up Conkeldurr.Don't use this...
Conkeldurr@ Leftovers
Iron Fist
120 HP, 252 Atk, 136 SpDef
Brave Nature
-Bulk Up
-Mach Punch
-Ice Punch/Payback
-Drain Punch
Why its not good: On paper, Conkeldurr seems like an ok wallbreaker. He can beat Ghosts and Flyers, and he has a sweet movepool. However, than one sees the crippling flaws of Conkeldurr. Unlike Chunky Kong, Conkeldurr is not one hell of a guy, while still being about as slow as your grandmother during prune season, while looking the part to boot. Also, while Conkeldurr can beat Ghosts and Flyers, he cant beat both, and as a result can be easy to defeat. However, Conkeldurr's biggest flaw is his low special bulk, which in this Keldeo dominant era, is such a disappointment as any decent special attacker can ruin Conkeldurr, making him an easy target for the likes of Latios, Keldeo, Starmie, and other threats such as Rotom W in rain.
Gallade @ Leftovers
Justified
240 HP, 56 Def, 212 SpDef
Careful Nature
-Bulk Up
-Shadow Sneak
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
Why this is better: Gallade not only solves our issue of bulk and speed, but also of coverage. Looking at Gallade, the attractive qualities are his extra resistances and high Special defense make him an ideal tank. Gallade is much harder to revenge kill after a bulk up or two than Conk, as he can actually take a hit. Gallade also has the interesting Shadow Sneak, which is unique among fighters, allowing him to defeat the Ghosts and Psychics in ones way easily, while still having both priority and coverage. Justified also is a cool ability, as it gives one the occasional boost. Overall, Gallade is a better tanky bulk up user than conk due to his higher special bulk, useful resistances, and unique movepool...
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Don't use that, use this [OU Edition]
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
Gallade is one of those Pokemon that looks so much better on paper then it actually is in battle. People see its overall great bulk, power, and offensive typing, and think it's usable. Sadly, it's not THAT usable. Conk is good. I'm not a fan of BU Conk personally, but the LO and even the Status Orb sets are fun to use and I've found success with them.
I'm aware that the first set and Gastrodon itself have been posted before. Let me propose another alternative.
Don't use:
Gastrodon @ Leftovers | Storm Drain
Calm | 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
• Ice Beam / Earthquake
• Scald
• Recover
• Toxic
This set is the reason Gastrodon gets so much flak from the OU playerbase. It's easy to switch in and set up on this set, thanks to the lack of offensive prowess, and it really can't do much in return. Many common attackers can simply 2HKO this set, and it cannot threaten much other than defensive Politoed that opt not to use Toxic for some strange reason. Rain offense, which Gastrodon is supposed to beat, actually can turn the tables against it thanks to its inability to deal consistent damage without a Storm Drain boost.
Use:
Gastrodon @ Life Orb | Storm Drain
Modest | 160 HP / 36 Def / 252 SpA / 60 SpD
• Surf
• Earth Power
• Ice Beam
• Recover
This set can throw rain offense for a loop with the incredible power it holds. Many common Water resists are 2HKOed by a rain- and Storm Drain-boosted Surf. This Gastrodon can actually beat a slightly weakened Ferrothorn down thanks to the power vested behind its attacks, and it can stop most Starmie variants cold. Recover helps Gastrodon maintain its durability and negate Life Orb recoil. Of course, it still has to watch for Breloom, but unlike the other set, this Gastrodon can actually OHKO Breloom on the switch with Surf after one Storm Drain boost. This is a godsend for teams that are vulnerable to Water-type assaults. Try it out, and it won't disappoint (unless you use it like the other set).
Don't use:
Calm | 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
• Ice Beam / Earthquake
• Scald
• Recover
• Toxic
This set is the reason Gastrodon gets so much flak from the OU playerbase. It's easy to switch in and set up on this set, thanks to the lack of offensive prowess, and it really can't do much in return. Many common attackers can simply 2HKO this set, and it cannot threaten much other than defensive Politoed that opt not to use Toxic for some strange reason. Rain offense, which Gastrodon is supposed to beat, actually can turn the tables against it thanks to its inability to deal consistent damage without a Storm Drain boost.
Use:
Modest | 160 HP / 36 Def / 252 SpA / 60 SpD
• Surf
• Earth Power
• Ice Beam
• Recover
This set can throw rain offense for a loop with the incredible power it holds. Many common Water resists are 2HKOed by a rain- and Storm Drain-boosted Surf. This Gastrodon can actually beat a slightly weakened Ferrothorn down thanks to the power vested behind its attacks, and it can stop most Starmie variants cold. Recover helps Gastrodon maintain its durability and negate Life Orb recoil. Of course, it still has to watch for Breloom, but unlike the other set, this Gastrodon can actually OHKO Breloom on the switch with Surf after one Storm Drain boost. This is a godsend for teams that are vulnerable to Water-type assaults. Try it out, and it won't disappoint (unless you use it like the other set).
Last edited:
I know what you mean, but at the same time even SubSalac has done me jack all because I always face teams with multiple answers to Terrakion like Scarf Latios AND Breloom or Scarf Keldeo AND Scizor. It's gotten to the point where I've just given up trying to set up with Terrakion, and the Choice Band set (and to an extent the Choice Scarf set) is so good and there's plenty of other powerful boosters that don't suffer the same problems that using a boosting Terrakion set just isn't worth it, but you're not suffering for it. Does that make any sense?
SR Jirachi was already offered as an alternative to SR Metagross, but I'd like to offer another alternative that can overcome some of Metagross's downfalls that Jirachi can't, while also being a better analogue to Metagross's old role rather than being something completely different.
Don't use this:
Metagross @ Leftovers
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Pursuit
- Earthquake / Hammer Arm
Why it's bad: Metagross has a ton of issues that prevent it from being ideal in the current metagame, the two main ones being that it's easily worn down and that its coverage is very awkward, always leaving more to be desired. For example, the set above (listed on site) has trouble with bulky waters, Thundurus-T, Skarm, and Volcarona. Sure you can swap out one of your current coverage moves for ice punch, thunder punch, or rock slide to help cover those threats, but just needing all of those options on top of what it already has shows how bad Metagross is as an offensive SR setter. I won't knock Agiligross or other offensive Metagross sets, but there are so many better offensive and defensive mons you can fit rocks onto. If you really need a steel type to set up rocks and check dragons that's not weak to fighting, you can
Use this:
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 2 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake / Toxic
Why it's better: With levitate, Bronzong cannot be worn down by spikes, increasing its survivability a ton. Its ground immunity lets it handle dragons much better, allowing it to switch into physical dragons not locked into outrage directly, unlike Metagross. And on top of that, you are no longer Lando-T's bitch; you make it yours quite easily. Gyro ball and HP ice allow Bronzong to check a number of offensive threats effectively, and earthquake is there to hit your opponent's steels. I prefer toxic in the last slot though, as even with earthquake, Bronzong fares poorly against Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. Toxic is great for luring and dealing with your opponent's bulky waters as they try to burn you. By changing your SR setter from Metagross to Bronzong, you essentially trade crappy coverage for more specialized (still not great) coverage and much more utility, which is well worth it in my opinion.
I loved using bronzong at the start of BW2 meta game. Honestly, it's lost a lot of clout with torn-t getting banned, and then Lando-I too. My biggest problem with bronzong is that, when building, I want to use it as my main Latios check-- which it does well; but then, it's total set up bate for Latias. Generally, I want my check for one to beat the other as well. Having to get a different check for Latias is inefficient.
Bronzong is kinda underwhelming with all those steels : Jirachi got wish and U-turn, Skarmory got Spikes and Roar, Forretress got rapid spinn, spikes and volt switch, Ferrothorn got a much better typing and spikes / twave / leech seed, and with explosion's nerf, he's not even a viable TR LO attacker. Without Landorus-I / Tornadus, he doesn't have anything to really be considered as a good steel pokemon sadly.
Bronzong has lost some of its use with Lando-I gone, but I still think it's a good steel in this metagame. Its versatility as a dragon check is unrivaled imo. Jirachi falls to physical dragons with earthquake, Skarm and Forry fall to special attacks, and Ferro falls to fighting and fire type attacks. Bronzong handles all of these. It's still weak to fire, but it has enough bulk to take a fire blast/hp fire, unlike the 4x weak steels. It can even check Kyurem-B behind a sub.
252 SpAtk Kyurem-B (+SpAtk) Earth Power vs 252 HP/88 SpDef Bronzong (+SpDef) : 44.97% - 53.25% (2-3 hits to KO)
Unless it's sub life orb (lol) or just life orb and predicts the switch, it needs to roll max damage twice to kill.
I don't really agree that Bronzong is setup bait for Latias, as you can definitely land a toxic once it decides to roost/recover; it can't sub forever. It's not a perfect check, but it doesn't automatically lose to Latias. I don't think it's a far-fetched idea to have more than one check to sub CM Latias anyway. You can easily pair Bronzong with one of the blobs to help alleviate its problem of not having reliable recovery, or you can pack an offensive check (such as Tyranitar or Scizor).
In terms of doing other things, yeah it might be a bit underwhelming, but it does have some advantages over common steel types in the tier that make it worth using. The main reason I chose to recommend it over Metagross as a stealth rocker is because I see it as a nearly straight upgrade, rather than a side-grade like Jirachi.
252 SpAtk Kyurem-B (+SpAtk) Earth Power vs 252 HP/88 SpDef Bronzong (+SpDef) : 44.97% - 53.25% (2-3 hits to KO)
Unless it's sub life orb (lol) or just life orb and predicts the switch, it needs to roll max damage twice to kill.
I don't really agree that Bronzong is setup bait for Latias, as you can definitely land a toxic once it decides to roost/recover; it can't sub forever. It's not a perfect check, but it doesn't automatically lose to Latias. I don't think it's a far-fetched idea to have more than one check to sub CM Latias anyway. You can easily pair Bronzong with one of the blobs to help alleviate its problem of not having reliable recovery, or you can pack an offensive check (such as Tyranitar or Scizor).
In terms of doing other things, yeah it might be a bit underwhelming, but it does have some advantages over common steel types in the tier that make it worth using. The main reason I chose to recommend it over Metagross as a stealth rocker is because I see it as a nearly straight upgrade, rather than a side-grade like Jirachi.
...
@Goutland
Brongzong should be using Levitate. :/
edit: oops, I feel silly now
I agree though, Brongzong still has decent use, in particular countering Kyurem-B, Gliscor, and Landorus-T, even checking Latios, all while being not Magnezone bait thanks to Earthquake. Is it a niche Pokemon? Yes, still a ton better than Metagross.
I feel like for the example given though, Jirachi is a better replacement for Metagrosss.
@Goutland
Brongzong should be using Levitate. :/
edit: oops, I feel silly now
I agree though, Brongzong still has decent use, in particular countering Kyurem-B, Gliscor, and Landorus-T, even checking Latios, all while being not Magnezone bait thanks to Earthquake. Is it a niche Pokemon? Yes, still a ton better than Metagross.
I feel like for the example given though, Jirachi is a better replacement for Metagrosss.
Last edited:
Wynaut, Kyube has Teravolt, which negates Levitate.
Don't use this
Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 240 Def / 252 HP / 16 Spd
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Toxic Spikes
I never really liked Toxic Spikes for Stall or balance teams tbh. I think the two turns you use setting them up aren't worth it. First there's so many Pokemon that are immune to Toxic Spikes, namely every Flying type, every Steel type, every Poison type, and every Pokemon with the ability Levitate. This are all common sights in the OU tier, and they can even be Rapid Spinned away, and the most common spinners (Starmie, Tentacruel, and Forre) don't care about Toxic Spikes / are immune to them. Tentacruel's main niche in OU is being a great defensive Rapid Spinner, but what's the point if you can't get past Jellicent anyway? Sure Toxic Spikes can beat Jellicent, but for the reasons listed above they are pretty unreliable imo.
Use this
Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 240 Def / 252 HP / 16 Spd
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Substitute
- Toxic
This Tentacruel set is so much better in my personal experience from using both sets. The number one selling point for this set is that it beats Jellicent one on one. Substitute is like Protect, but imo a bit better on Tentacruel. With 12% recovery every turn in rain, you're health isn't going to be chipped away easily by making substitutes. Substitutes also beat Leech Seed Ferrothorn, and protects you from Scald burns, while also letting you beat Ferrothorn more easily. This Tentacruel can also Toxic more Pokemon than Toxic Spikes (like Zapdos, Latios, and Rotom-W), and you don't have to waste two turns setting up Toxic Spikes. Obviously Toxic Spikes do have advantages, but this set is just so much better 90% of the time.
Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 240 Def / 252 HP / 16 Spd
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Toxic Spikes
I never really liked Toxic Spikes for Stall or balance teams tbh. I think the two turns you use setting them up aren't worth it. First there's so many Pokemon that are immune to Toxic Spikes, namely every Flying type, every Steel type, every Poison type, and every Pokemon with the ability Levitate. This are all common sights in the OU tier, and they can even be Rapid Spinned away, and the most common spinners (Starmie, Tentacruel, and Forre) don't care about Toxic Spikes / are immune to them. Tentacruel's main niche in OU is being a great defensive Rapid Spinner, but what's the point if you can't get past Jellicent anyway? Sure Toxic Spikes can beat Jellicent, but for the reasons listed above they are pretty unreliable imo.
Use this
Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 240 Def / 252 HP / 16 Spd
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Substitute
- Toxic
This Tentacruel set is so much better in my personal experience from using both sets. The number one selling point for this set is that it beats Jellicent one on one. Substitute is like Protect, but imo a bit better on Tentacruel. With 12% recovery every turn in rain, you're health isn't going to be chipped away easily by making substitutes. Substitutes also beat Leech Seed Ferrothorn, and protects you from Scald burns, while also letting you beat Ferrothorn more easily. This Tentacruel can also Toxic more Pokemon than Toxic Spikes (like Zapdos, Latios, and Rotom-W), and you don't have to waste two turns setting up Toxic Spikes. Obviously Toxic Spikes do have advantages, but this set is just so much better 90% of the time.
MCBarrett
i love it when you call me big hoppa
You should probably run a Timid Nature on that set to outspeed things like Jolly Breloom and set up a Sub. Maybe even mention somewhere that you can opt to run 96 speed EV and a Timid Nature to outspeed Jolly Mamo and take it out with a rain boosted Scald.Don't use this
Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 240 Def / 252 HP / 16 Spd
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Toxic Spikes
I never really liked Toxic Spikes for Stall or balance teams tbh. I think the two turns you use setting them up aren't worth it. First there's so many Pokemon that are immune to Toxic Spikes, namely every Flying type, every Steel type, every Poison type, and every Pokemon with the ability Levitate. This are all common sights in the OU tier, and they can even be Rapid Spinned away, and the most common spinners (Starmie, Tentacruel, and Forre) don't care about Toxic Spikes / are immune to them. Tentacruel's main niche in OU is being a great defensive Rapid Spinner, but what's the point if you can't get past Jellicent anyway? Sure Toxic Spikes can beat Jellicent, but for the reasons listed above they are pretty unreliable imo.
Use this
Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 240 Def / 252 HP / 16 Spd
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Substitute
- Toxic
This Tentacruel set is so much better in my personal experience from using both sets. The number one selling point for this set is that it beats Jellicent one on one. Substitute is like Protect, but imo a bit better on Tentacruel. With 12% recovery every turn in rain, you're health isn't going to be chipped away easily by making substitutes. Substitutes also beat Leech Seed Ferrothorn, and protects you from Scald burns, while also letting you beat Ferrothorn more easily. This Tentacruel can also Toxic more Pokemon than Toxic Spikes (like Zapdos, Latios, and Rotom-W), and you don't have to waste two turns setting up Toxic Spikes. Obviously Toxic Spikes do have advantages, but this set is just so much better 90% of the time.
OK this might sound very stupid but I've seen lots of new people using this set. Just don't.
Don't use
Charizard@Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spd/4 HP
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Air Slash
- HP Grass
Seriously. It might just be because I'm a terrible player, but I see a lot of these sets on my side of the ladder(which kinda sucks but anyways)
There is utterly no reason why you'd use Charizard. A 50% drop in health with SR doesn't help. 109 SpA in a meta dominated by monsters like Latios doesn't cut it. Next to no bulk isn't nice either. And lastly, being choice-locked in Fire Blast with rain everywhere isn't too good either.
If you really want an unconventional sun abuser(not Venusaur), use this!
ROFL.
No, that was a joke.
Use this:
Lilligant@Life Orb
EVs: 60 Def/252 SpA/196 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Giga Drain
- HP Ice
With Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance, Lilligant can easily be the answer to problematic issues for your sun team. 110 SpA seems bad but after a boost or two it can hit very hard. Lilligant also fares well against rain and sand teams because of sleep powder on the switch as well as HP Ice which acts as a good coverage option.
Any comments?
Don't use
Charizard@Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spd/4 HP
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Air Slash
- HP Grass
Seriously. It might just be because I'm a terrible player, but I see a lot of these sets on my side of the ladder(which kinda sucks but anyways)
There is utterly no reason why you'd use Charizard. A 50% drop in health with SR doesn't help. 109 SpA in a meta dominated by monsters like Latios doesn't cut it. Next to no bulk isn't nice either. And lastly, being choice-locked in Fire Blast with rain everywhere isn't too good either.
If you really want an unconventional sun abuser(not Venusaur), use this!
ROFL.
No, that was a joke.
Use this:
Lilligant@Life Orb
EVs: 60 Def/252 SpA/196 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Giga Drain
- HP Ice
With Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance, Lilligant can easily be the answer to problematic issues for your sun team. 110 SpA seems bad but after a boost or two it can hit very hard. Lilligant also fares well against rain and sand teams because of sleep powder on the switch as well as HP Ice which acts as a good coverage option.
Any comments?
Charizard should only ever be compared to Volcarona. Lilligant and Charizard are nothing alike, so I don't know why you're saying "use this instead." Charizard just so happens to hit harder than any other sun Pokémon, and makes a pretty great wall breaker for sun teams with the right support. It's just outclassed by Volcarona in almost every way you can imagine, so that's why it isn't worth a team slot. Not saying Lilligant is bad, it's not, but it shouldn't be compared to Charizard at all.OK this might sound very stupid but I've seen lots of new people using this set. Just don't.
Don't use
Charizard@Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spd/4 HP
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Air Slash
- HP Grass
Seriously. It might just be because I'm a terrible player, but I see a lot of these sets on my side of the ladder(which kinda sucks but anyways)
There is utterly no reason why you'd use Charizard. A 50% drop in health with SR doesn't help. 109 SpA in a meta dominated by monsters like Latios doesn't cut it. Next to no bulk isn't nice either. And lastly, being choice-locked in Fire Blast with rain everywhere isn't too good either.
If you really want an unconventional sun abuser(not Venusaur), use this!
ROFL.
No, that was a joke.
Use this:
Lilligant@Life Orb
EVs: 60 Def/252 SpA/196 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Giga Drain
- HP Ice
With Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance, Lilligant can easily be the answer to problematic issues for your sun team. 110 SpA seems bad but after a boost or two it can hit very hard. Lilligant also fares well against rain and sand teams because of sleep powder on the switch as well as HP Ice which acts as a good coverage option.
Any comments?
Long story short, yes I'm a Charizard fanboy.
OK this might sound very stupid but I've seen lots of new people using this set. Just don't.
Don't use
Charizard@Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spd/4 HP
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Air Slash
- HP Grass
Seriously. It might just be because I'm a terrible player, but I see a lot of these sets on my side of the ladder(which kinda sucks but anyways)
There is utterly no reason why you'd use Charizard. A 50% drop in health with SR doesn't help. 109 SpA in a meta dominated by monsters like Latios doesn't cut it. Next to no bulk isn't nice either. And lastly, being choice-locked in Fire Blast with rain everywhere isn't too good either.
If you really want an unconventional sun abuser(not Venusaur), use this!
ROFL.
No, that was a joke.
Use this:
Lilligant@Life Orb
EVs: 60 Def/252 SpA/196 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Giga Drain
- HP Ice
With Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance, Lilligant can easily be the answer to problematic issues for your sun team. 110 SpA seems bad but after a boost or two it can hit very hard. Lilligant also fares well against rain and sand teams because of sleep powder on the switch as well as HP Ice which acts as a good coverage option.
Any comments?
No no no. Halcyon is right. You can't compare a wall breaker to a sweeper. I think you're missing the point of this thread. Here's a better comparison:
Don't use this....
Charizard @ Choice Specs
Trait: Solar Power
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- SolarBeam
- Focus Blast
- Air Slash
First off, this whole anti sun Charizard mentality should be abolished. Although outside of sun Charizard is extremely obselete, Charizard is a huge force to be reckoned with in the sun, and anyone using it on a sun team along with a spinner shouldn't be labeled a noob. Specs Zard is THE best sun wallbreaker in the game, because it can even break through shit like Blissey, Chansey, Tentacruel, Jellicent, Jirachi, etc. Nothing is safe from a Specs Fire Blast nor a Specs Solarbeam, and Charizard's decent 100 base speed lets it outpace everything that sun would normally want to break through. Also, the argument that 109 SpA sucks in this metagame doesn't apply at ALL to Charizard, because Solar Power + Specs gives it a free NP boost, surpassing Latios in power by a long shot. Your moveset is also wrong, because why the fuck would Zard run HP Grass when it learns Solar Beam? Still, Charizard's huge SR weakness and SolarPower giving it LO recoil every turn keeps this thing from being a huge threat the entire battle. It requires too much team support to effectively find a niche on every sun team.
(Also note that you shouldn't invest 4 HP EVs like you did in your set, because it needs an odd number of HP so it can switch into SR three times.)
Use this instead:
Heatran @ Choice Specs
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- SolarBeam
- Dragon Pulse
- Earth Power
This is a MUCH better comparison. Heatran is sun's most reliable wall breaker that doesn't mind SR and absolutely nukes anything in its path. It can still nab the 2HKO on Blissey after SR sometimes, and in the sun it can even beat Jellicent, Tentacruel, and of course any Steel-type that decides to walk in front of its sun boosted Fire Blast. Dragon Pulse is nice for Dragon-types, and it's an all around better move then HP Ice because of how many things it can hit for neutral damage. Earth Power is for opposing Heatran and most importantly Tentacruel. Overall, Heatran is a much better choice because it's a very bulky, very powerful Pokemon in the sun that can KO pretty much everything that Charizard can. It's typing lets it switch into Grass, Ice, and Dragon-type moves with little effort, and then proceed to dish out massive pain to anything that decides to switch in.
tl;dr Don't bash Solar Power Charizard, but use Specs Heatran. Lilligant isn't comparable to either of them.
Last edited:
FOR HYPEROFFENSIVE TEAMS
Don't use this:
Scolipede @ Life Orb
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
Why it sucks: Scolipede will probably set up one layer of spikes for hyperoffensive teams, but those kinds of teams require as many layers of Spikes as possible, and Scolipede's bulk isn't that great, considering its terrible HP stat, which sits at a laughable 60. Of course Scolipede has a high speed stat, but that doesn't prevent it from being revenge killed by choice scarf users, which might OHKO it or limit it to just one layer of spikes. Also, hyperoffensive teams don't need Toxic Spikes. Sure, Megahorn OHKOes Lati@s and does a lot of damage to everything that does not resist it and also beats both Magic Bounce users. Sure, Earthquake OHKOes Heatran. Scolipede is not a very bad Pokemon, it's just that...
Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Trait: Unburden
EVs: 88 HP / 232 SpA / 188 Spe
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
Modest Nature
- Spikes
- Bug Buzz
- Focus Miss
- Final Gambit
...it's outclassed by Accelgor imo. With a blazing 145 base Speed stat, it can simply use a Modest nature to hit as hard as possible, but not only that. When combining Focus Sash with Accelgor's low bulk and unburden, it can suddenly outpace anything that exists (without a priority move) and set up a second layer of Spikes, which can prove crucial for hyperoffensive teams as Terrakion, for example, can fail to ohko that Jellicent without a second layer of Spikes, which can assure the OHKO. Also, Accelgor has Final Gambit if the user sees that Spikes don't affect the opposing team that much (because of Levitate, flying-types or stuff with magic guard), which when combined with 88 HP EVs can allow accelgor to bring down 4 HP Keldeo and anything with less HP than that. It can also use Final Gambit to prevent a Rapid Spinner such as forretress to use Rapid Spin, which might allow you to bring a Fire-type pokemon or Gengar. Focus Blast takes care of Tyranitar (unless it decides to miss, hence focus miss) and Heatran, although it doesn't ohko the latter. Bug Buzz can also take care of those pesky Espeon and Xatu that try to show up.
So, in my opinion, Scolipede should not be used on hyperoffensive teams. Balance teams and stall teams that need fast Toxic Spikes can depend on Scolipede, however, so it's not a complete waste.
Don't use this:
Scolipede @ Life Orb
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
Why it sucks: Scolipede will probably set up one layer of spikes for hyperoffensive teams, but those kinds of teams require as many layers of Spikes as possible, and Scolipede's bulk isn't that great, considering its terrible HP stat, which sits at a laughable 60. Of course Scolipede has a high speed stat, but that doesn't prevent it from being revenge killed by choice scarf users, which might OHKO it or limit it to just one layer of spikes. Also, hyperoffensive teams don't need Toxic Spikes. Sure, Megahorn OHKOes Lati@s and does a lot of damage to everything that does not resist it and also beats both Magic Bounce users. Sure, Earthquake OHKOes Heatran. Scolipede is not a very bad Pokemon, it's just that...
Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Trait: Unburden
EVs: 88 HP / 232 SpA / 188 Spe
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
Modest Nature
- Spikes
- Bug Buzz
- Focus Miss
- Final Gambit
...it's outclassed by Accelgor imo. With a blazing 145 base Speed stat, it can simply use a Modest nature to hit as hard as possible, but not only that. When combining Focus Sash with Accelgor's low bulk and unburden, it can suddenly outpace anything that exists (without a priority move) and set up a second layer of Spikes, which can prove crucial for hyperoffensive teams as Terrakion, for example, can fail to ohko that Jellicent without a second layer of Spikes, which can assure the OHKO. Also, Accelgor has Final Gambit if the user sees that Spikes don't affect the opposing team that much (because of Levitate, flying-types or stuff with magic guard), which when combined with 88 HP EVs can allow accelgor to bring down 4 HP Keldeo and anything with less HP than that. It can also use Final Gambit to prevent a Rapid Spinner such as forretress to use Rapid Spin, which might allow you to bring a Fire-type pokemon or Gengar. Focus Blast takes care of Tyranitar (unless it decides to miss, hence focus miss) and Heatran, although it doesn't ohko the latter. Bug Buzz can also take care of those pesky Espeon and Xatu that try to show up.
So, in my opinion, Scolipede should not be used on hyperoffensive teams. Balance teams and stall teams that need fast Toxic Spikes can depend on Scolipede, however, so it's not a complete waste.
Scolipede's main niche was back when Deoxys-D was still around. It could OHKO it with a Bug Gem Megahorn and set up its own hazards. But since it was banned, that niche has disappeared. I haven't used either since then, so I'm theorymonning right now, but I have to assume your comparison is spot on. It seems that way on paper at least.
Don't use:
Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Fire Fang / Aqua Tail
Yache Berry Chomp is not a bad set-- however is is INCREDIBLY overrated. My personal theory is that this "fear of the mighty Yache-Chomp" is a remnant of how this set single-handedly broke DP OU. Garchomp was incredibly good (easily #1), but manageable-- until Yache Chomp was discovered. That's when it starting killing Cresselias and jumped to gain almost double the usage of #2 (which became Tyranitar in the Yache-Chomp meta...).
All that said, BW is NOT early DP-- where practically nothing could revenge Yache-Chomp's combination of bulk and speed. Lati@s is unbanned (which is huge), and the increase of faster Pokemon like Terrakion, Keldeo, and Alakazam really put a damper on Yache Chomp. Choice Scarf users are in abundance, and better priority in Scizor, Breloom, and D-Nite as well as the very common Mamoswine all make Yache Chomp far less intimidating.
If you NEED that third coverage move in Aqua Tail or Fire Fang it's ok, but this set is a lot more dangerous overall:
Use:
Garchomp @ Salac Berry
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute
Salac Chomp wins games. Period. It's still got that "holy shit it's Garchomp behind a substitute" scare factor, power, and Speed to mess up the opponent in the early game-- but Salac adds an entire new level of terror to this mon. As mentioned, the metagame's SPEED is the biggest thing keeping Garchomp in check. Salac eliminates this problem almost completely. Blitzing past Lati@s and Scarf Mence completely changes the threat level this Pokemon represents. The fact that it can beat Scarf Terrakioni one-on-one, and that every faster scarfer is pursuit bait make this Pokemon incredibly difficult to stop with the few Pokes that can reliably outspeed it. Tyranitar's pursuit doesn't help the situation either.
Garchomp is already an almost flawless Pokemon, and a top metagame threat-- but add on the dual-threat of SD Wall Breaking / Sweeping, as WELL as a potential boosted speed Sweep/Clean-- or even BOTH (+2 / +1 is not that hard to get and sweep with), and you are facing down a beast that is incredibly hard to handle. All of Garchomp's sets are quite dangerous, but this is probably the most dangerous.
Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Fire Fang / Aqua Tail
Yache Berry Chomp is not a bad set-- however is is INCREDIBLY overrated. My personal theory is that this "fear of the mighty Yache-Chomp" is a remnant of how this set single-handedly broke DP OU. Garchomp was incredibly good (easily #1), but manageable-- until Yache Chomp was discovered. That's when it starting killing Cresselias and jumped to gain almost double the usage of #2 (which became Tyranitar in the Yache-Chomp meta...).
All that said, BW is NOT early DP-- where practically nothing could revenge Yache-Chomp's combination of bulk and speed. Lati@s is unbanned (which is huge), and the increase of faster Pokemon like Terrakion, Keldeo, and Alakazam really put a damper on Yache Chomp. Choice Scarf users are in abundance, and better priority in Scizor, Breloom, and D-Nite as well as the very common Mamoswine all make Yache Chomp far less intimidating.
If you NEED that third coverage move in Aqua Tail or Fire Fang it's ok, but this set is a lot more dangerous overall:
Use:
Garchomp @ Salac Berry
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute
Salac Chomp wins games. Period. It's still got that "holy shit it's Garchomp behind a substitute" scare factor, power, and Speed to mess up the opponent in the early game-- but Salac adds an entire new level of terror to this mon. As mentioned, the metagame's SPEED is the biggest thing keeping Garchomp in check. Salac eliminates this problem almost completely. Blitzing past Lati@s and Scarf Mence completely changes the threat level this Pokemon represents. The fact that it can beat Scarf Terrakioni one-on-one, and that every faster scarfer is pursuit bait make this Pokemon incredibly difficult to stop with the few Pokes that can reliably outspeed it. Tyranitar's pursuit doesn't help the situation either.
Garchomp is already an almost flawless Pokemon, and a top metagame threat-- but add on the dual-threat of SD Wall Breaking / Sweeping, as WELL as a potential boosted speed Sweep/Clean-- or even BOTH (+2 / +1 is not that hard to get and sweep with), and you are facing down a beast that is incredibly hard to handle. All of Garchomp's sets are quite dangerous, but this is probably the most dangerous.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Don't be dissin the charizard. With solar power, charizard doesn't have 109 spatt... it has 190 spatt. And it really isn't that bad. Give it the spin and dug support that is so desperately needed by all sun teams anyway and you have a real asshole on your hands, albeit a high maintanence one. Specs Fblast 2hkos kingdra...OK this might sound very stupid but I've seen lots of new people using this set. Just don't.
Don't use
Charizard@Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spd/4 HP
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Air Slash
- HP Grass
Seriously. It might just be because I'm a terrible player, but I see a lot of these sets on my side of the ladder(which kinda sucks but anyways)
There is utterly no reason why you'd use Charizard. A 50% drop in health with SR doesn't help. 109 SpA in a meta dominated by monsters like Latios doesn't cut it. Next to no bulk isn't nice either. And lastly, being choice-locked in Fire Blast with rain everywhere isn't too good either.
If you really want an unconventional sun abuser(not Venusaur), use this!
ROFL.
No, that was a joke.
Use this:
Lilligant@Life Orb
EVs: 60 Def/252 SpA/196 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Giga Drain
- HP Ice
With Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance, Lilligant can easily be the answer to problematic issues for your sun team. 110 SpA seems bad but after a boost or two it can hit very hard. Lilligant also fares well against rain and sand teams because of sleep powder on the switch as well as HP Ice which acts as a good coverage option.
Any comments?
But aside from that, the two have no similarities. Compare it to darmanitan or volc
And Quiver dance lilligant is absolutely godawful lol
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dwarfstar
mindless philosopher
A lack of power isn't the issue. Charizard has low defenses and weaknesses to very common attacks. This wouldn't be such a big problem if he had a decent Speed stat, but base 100 is decidedly subpar for a frail attacker. The biggest offensive threats in the tier can either outrun Charizard or just tank its attacks before wiping it off the field, and every halfway-decent Scarfer does colossal damage to Charizard.
It's only common weakness is Water...which is taken away in the sun. All this blind hate for Charizard really gets on my nerves. It's not a bad Pokémon, it's just outclassed by Volcarona in almost every way. But if you WANTED to, you could easily make a sun team around Charizard. Sun teams keep rocks off the field and deal with Terrakion anyway, why not take that opportunity to use an insane wall breaker that benefits from these things being gone? I wonder, has anyone who disses Charizard actually used Charizard before? Because I have, and I can assure you it does serious work when given the proper support (which is not that much more support than Volcarona gets). And I know this shouldn't be taken into account when judging a Pokémon's effectiveness, but the sheer surprise factor is enough to win you games sometimes. People will automatically assume that you are a noob the instant they see Charizard in Team Preview, which gives you a huge advantage right off the bat. I had a guy try to set up a Terrakion in front of my Charizard, only to be swiftly OHKO'd by Fire Blast.
TL;DR: Charizard isn't bad, it's outclassed. It's not its fault that noobs use it wrong.
TL;DR: Charizard isn't bad, it's outclassed. It's not its fault that noobs use it wrong.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
It's the same thing as infernape+metagross+donphan+everything: bandwagoning
I recall someone doing very well with a sub sd acrobatics/flare blitz zard
And I feel people need to be extra careful to not fall subject to that in this thread since it is so incredibly subjective
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Yeah I'm actually surprised it took this long for someone to whine about the stereotypical "bad" OU Pokemon. I'm REALLY surprised that no one has brought up Infernape, who is supposedly outclassed in every way, shape, and form according to a decent portion of the OU community. It's funny, because Infernape isn't even THAT bad.
Think before you post guys. Make sure your comparisons make sense. I don't want to see something like Keldeo > Infernape when they play almost entirely different. If you think that Charizard is a bad wall breaker in sun, make sure to recommend a better WALL BREAKER, not a sweeper. You can't tell someone not to use something, but then give them a completely different recommendation that fills a completely different role on a team. That's like telling your friend not to go to McDonalds, but to instead go to Jersey Mikes. Like, there's no comparison.
Definitely going in the OP. Sub Salac is amazing, and it's one of my favorite Chomp sets to use. The Yache set is so situational for me, and if the opponent lacks either a Mamoswine or a revenge killer with HP Ice, I feel like the item was more of a waste then anything else. The Salac set is easy to activate, especially on defensive threats.Don't use:
Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Fire Fang / Aqua Tail
Yache Berry Chomp is not a bad set-- however is is INCREDIBLY overrated. My personal theory is that this "fear of the mighty Yache-Chomp" is a remnant of how this set single-handedly broke DP OU. Garchomp was incredibly good (easily #1), but manageable-- until Yache Chomp was discovered. That's when it starting killing Cresselias and jumped to gain almost double the usage of #2 (which became Tyranitar in the Yache-Chomp meta...).
All that said, BW is NOT early DP-- where practically nothing could revenge Yache-Chomp's combination of bulk and speed. Lati@s is unbanned (which is huge), and the increase of faster Pokemon like Terrakion, Keldeo, and Alakazam really put a damper on Yache Chomp. Choice Scarf users are in abundance, and better priority in Scizor, Breloom, and D-Nite as well as the very common Mamoswine all make Yache Chomp far less intimidating.
If you NEED that third coverage move in Aqua Tail or Fire Fang it's ok, but this set is a lot more dangerous overall:
Use:
Garchomp @ Salac Berry
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute
Salac Chomp wins games. Period. It's still got that "holy shit it's Garchomp behind a substitute" scare factor, power, and Speed to mess up the opponent in the early game-- but Salac adds an entire new level of terror to this mon. As mentioned, the metagame's SPEED is the biggest thing keeping Garchomp in check. Salac eliminates this problem almost completely. Blitzing past Lati@s and Scarf Mence completely changes the threat level this Pokemon represents. The fact that it can beat Scarf Terrakioni one-on-one, and that every faster scarfer is pursuit bait make this Pokemon incredibly difficult to stop with the few Pokes that can reliably outspeed it. Tyranitar's pursuit doesn't help the situation either.
Garchomp is already an almost flawless Pokemon, and a top metagame threat-- but add on the dual-threat of SD Wall Breaking / Sweeping, as WELL as a potential boosted speed Sweep/Clean-- or even BOTH (+2 / +1 is not that hard to get and sweep with), and you are facing down a beast that is incredibly hard to handle. All of Garchomp's sets are quite dangerous, but this is probably the most dangerous.
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What would be the point of Timid to sub against Jolly Breloom? If he's using Mach Punch he'll outspeed anyway-- if he's Bullet Seeding he'll break the sub and hit you too. I guess it can protect you from Low Sweep... O.o
Include Dual Chop as an option because it allows you to blow right through Focus Sash Alakazam and helps sometimes against substitute users while having the same BP as Dragon Claw. The 90% miss might be a little off putting but it's reliable enough especially since you're gonna be using Earthquake's 100% more often against most Pokemon.
Garchomp @ Salac Berry
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage / Dual Chop
- Earthquake
- Substitute
Salac Chomp wins games. Period. It's still got that "holy shit it's Garchomp behind a substitute" scare factor, power, and Speed to mess up the opponent in the early game-- but Salac adds an entire new level of terror to this mon. As mentioned, the metagame's SPEED is the biggest thing keeping Garchomp in check. Salac eliminates this problem almost completely. Blitzing past Lati@s and Scarf Mence completely changes the threat level this Pokemon represents. The fact that it can beat Scarf Terrakioni one-on-one, and that every faster scarfer is pursuit bait make this Pokemon incredibly difficult to stop with the few Pokes that can reliably outspeed it. Tyranitar's pursuit doesn't help the situation either.
Garchomp is already an almost flawless Pokemon, and a top metagame threat-- but add on the dual-threat of SD Wall Breaking / Sweeping, as WELL as a potential boosted speed Sweep/Clean-- or even BOTH (+2 / +1 is not that hard to get and sweep with), and you are facing down a beast that is incredibly hard to handle. All of Garchomp's sets are quite dangerous, but this is probably the most dangerous.