Don't use that, use this [OU Edition]

[Shurtugal]

I addressed that argument in the OP. Please re-read it.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Shurtugal
@Chou Toshio : I've found U-turn to be incredibly useful if using Psychic, since it does a decent chunk to Dark-types. I do agree that its inferior if using Giga Drain, however.

I'm not sure who they are, these "Dark types" that you speak of? Tyranitar is the ONLY Dark-type really common in OU, and U-Turn does jack shit to it. I guess there's hydreigon too, but it's pretty bulky too, and there's no way in hell I'd leave Celebi in on it (U-Turn). I'm not going to make myself super Pursuit weak just to maybe hit Weavile on the switch-in.

Besides, the damage U-turn can potentially get is just not worth the risk from Pursuit Baton Pass gets around-- especially when you have 0 atk evs and Calm.

edit: Just to be clear, I think I said this a little too dick-- Magcargo's point is certainly valid; I just have my doubts to U-turn's usefulness even there.

 

[Gary]

Here's another Pokemon that I feel is a bit overrated in the wall breaking department.

Salamence @ Life Orb
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake

Why it's bad: Like many other Pokemon, MixMence isn't neccesarily a bad Pokemon, it just faces so much competition from other wall breakers. Besides, wall breakers are rather uncommon in OU because of most of them are rather susceptible to being revenge killed. This set faces competition from even Hydreigon, who has an even wider range of coverage. I guess it's still a decent addition to teams that have trouble breaking through walls such as Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Heatran, and Skarmory, but other than that, there's one thing that gives this set so much competition that MixMence almost seems obsolete.

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earth Power / Roost / Draco Meteor

Why this is better: Kyurem-B is easily the greatest wall breaker in the OU tier, and it's no surprise. Nothing in OU can rival it's massive 170 base attack and even its above average 120 base SpA. This set is simple, because it breaks through all the common OU walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Rotom-W, and Landorus-T, then proceeds to rape everything with Outrage. If you want Kyurem-B to act like MixMence, it can even run both Outrage and Draco Meteor on the same set in order to give it an alternative STAB move that won't lock itself in. Although it's slower then Salamence and posses more weaknesses, it's coverage and sheer power gives it that much more of a reason to use it over Salamence. It's bulky, powerful, and extremely versatile. I don't see why you would ever use MixMence over Kyurem-B to be quite honest. KyuB is just too cool for school.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Don't use this

Donphan @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard

Donphan is really out classed by Forretress in the utility role. Donphan's only niche in OU is that it's a "decent" rapid spinner while providing SR for Sun teams. Forretress is even used sometimes on Sun teams over Donphan. Donphan also has Ice Shard I guess, but Forretress deals with Physical Dragon's anyway. It's only really used in Sun teams because it's water weakness is reduced, but I think some people forget that it also becomes weaker to Fire type attacks (obviously). Donphan also faces competition on a Sun team with Dugtrio. Dugtrio can trap Tyranitar and Jirachi very well, as well as providing SR for Sun teams.

Use this

Forretress @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Volt Switch
- Gyro Ball

Forretress is a great Pokemon, as it offers so much utility. Steel typing, a base 140 Def stat, and a great move pool makes Forretress very viable in most teams. Forretress can set up all types of hazards, but since we're trying to outclass Donphan (if that alone doesn't already prove it), it also gains momentum in Volt Switch. Forretress has better typing, more bulk, and can work on other teams other than Sun. Forretress also see's some usage on Sun teams, mainly because it's not like it's going to live a Fire type attack anyway. Also, sun teams generally have problems with Dragon types, which Forretress checks pretty well.

Edit: Yeah, you're completely right Scarf Wynaut, I just kept the same nature as Donphan in the team maker and forgot to change the nature. Thanks!

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Well since my mind is on Blissey, I might as well do this

WITH SAND OR HAIL SUPPORT
Chansey @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Heal Bell / Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss

Why its bad: This is pretty much a compilation of almost everything that can go wrong with Chansey / Blissey, even though this is a little extreme, I have actually seen people use sets very much like this on the ladder and even in the RMT forum. In order to properly examine its flaws, I need a bulleted list.

• First off, Chansey is being used on a team with passive damage, without leftovers it is having damage done to it every single turn. This passive damage pretty much eliminates the bulk Chansey has over Blissey.
• This Chansey has no defensive investment, meaning it is taking an obnoxious amount of damage from physical attacks. While Chansey is a primarily special wall, it does not like being destroyed by Pursuit or Psyshock. Take for example, how much damage this Chansey takes from Scizor's Pursuit: 252+ Atk Choice Band Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Chansey: 483-569 (68.6 - 80.82%). By just swapping the HP and Defense, Chansey takes half that damage 252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 208-245 (32.39 - 38.16%).
• This Chansey's only recovery is Wish, if Chansey were to be potentially 2HKOed by something, even a weak attack, it literally can not heal it's self in time. Wish Chansey or Blissey needs Protect or Softboiled to make sure it can consistently recover its health.

Blissey @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Calm Nature
- Softboiled
- Wish / Aromatherapy / Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss / Flamethrower
- Toxic

Why this is better: Blissey is superior in this situation as there is hail or sand support, Blissey does not take passive damage to it thanks to leftovers. Chansey is by no means a bad Pokemon, but if you want to use it, don't use it on you sand or hail team, preferably Chansey enjoys being on a rain or sun team. With at least 252 investment in Defense, Blissey takes Pursuits fine, no longer being almost 1HKOed by them: 252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 284-335 (39.77 - 46.91%). This Blissey has Softboiled, meaning it has consistent recovery, making it a much better wall. If you are using Wish, Protect may be used over Softboiled, but don't run Wish alone.

Side note: This set only has one slot for supporting moves, if you want, you can ditch Toxic or Blissey's attacks to run another support move. If you do this, make sure your team is capable of combating the Pokemon Blissey can no longer wall, like Heatran if you ditch Seismic Toss.

---

@ShootinStarmie

Shouldn't that Forretress be using a Relaxed nature, to further decrease its speed for Gyro Ball and not lower its special attack for Volt Switch?

 

[Sturdynips]

Don't use that

Alakazam @ Life Orb
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice/Fire

Why it's bad: Zam has paper defenses so even powerful resisted hits can KO hit. Life orb works well with its great ability in Magic Guard, but in such a fast-paced metagame it isn't as good as it was in early BW1. Shadow ball is almost redundant in OU at the moment, SDef Jellicent takes more from Psyshock, and physically defensive Jellicent isn't as common (on the ladder).

Instead, use this

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Signal Beam
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice/Fire

Why it's better: Focus sash turns Zam into arguably the best revenge killer in OU. Magic guard ensures that the sash won't be broken by weather or hazards, meaning it can easily be kept intact. This can give it AT LEAST one attack on an opponent which beats set-up sweepers in their tracks. Things like RP Terrakion, SD Lucario or Scarf Keldeo are beaten easily as they cannot get past the sash. This set sacrifices a 30% power boost for the ability to stop nearly any sweeper that isn't behind a sub. Signal Beam should be used over shadow ball to hit celebi in particular, while also still hitting Lati@s super effectively.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Don't use this

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Protect

Sharpedo has terrible defenses, as even resisted attacks are taking a nice chunk of damage. Speed Boost is cool and all, but when you're so weak to priority it doesn't really matter. Breloom easily revenge kills this set, as well as Keldeo, Conkeldurr, and Scizor once it's at low enough health (which isn't hard considering SR + LO recoil really chipping away at Sharpedo's health). This set also doesn't really hit that hard either. I mean base 120 attack is nice, as well as the rain boost, but there are much better options. Sharpedo is also walled pretty hard by Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, Gyarados, and Virizion.

Use this instead

Feraligatr @ Mystic Water
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch / Crunch / Super Power

Feraligatr is so much better as filling the role if a physical rain sweeper. First off, it has so much more bulk, allowing it to tank even super effective hits like Rotom-W's Volt Switch while it sets up. Secondly, Gator isn't as weak to priority as Sharpedo is, as it doesn't have a Dark typing, which is a blessing in this case. Feraligatr is also hitting so much harder after a Swords Dance, and it doesn't care too much about Speed Boost because Gator has Aqua Jet, killing off nearly anything faster than it once it's at +2 and in Torrent Range. Feraligatr can also get past some of it's usual counters, depending on what it's coverage move is. Ice punch beats Dragonite, Crunch beats Jellicent, and Super Power beats Ferrothorn.

 

[Gary]

Don't use this

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Protect

Sharpedo has terrible defenses, as even resisted attacks are taking a nice chunk of damage. Speed Boost is cool and all, but when you're so weak to priority it doesn't really matter. Breloom easily revenge kills this set, as well as Keldeo, Conkeldurr, and Scizor once it's at low enough health (which isn't hard considering SR + LO recoil really chipping away at Sharpedo's health). This set also doesn't really hit that hard either. I mean base 120 attack is nice, as well as the rain boost, but there are much better options. Sharpedo is also walled pretty hard by Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, Gyarados, and Virizion.

Use this instead

Feraligatr @ Mystic Water
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch / Crunch / Super Power

Feraligatr is so much better as filling the role if a physical rain sweeper. First off, it has so much more bulk, allowing it to tank even super effective hits like Rotom-W's Volt Switch while it sets up. Secondly, Gator isn't as weak to priority as Sharpedo is, as it doesn't have a Dark typing, which is a blessing in this case. Feraligatr is also hitting so much harder after a Swords Dance, and it doesn't care too much about Speed Boost because Gator has Aqua Jet, killing off nearly anything faster than it once it's at +2 and in Torrent Range. Feraligatr can also get past some of it's usual counters, depending on what it's coverage move is. Ice punch beats Latias, Crunch beats Jellicent, and Super Power beats Ferrothorn.

I actually disagree with this. Sharpedo isn't neccesarily meant to be an all out sweeper like Feraligatr is, it's more of a late game cleaner that mops the floor with the enemy team once Ferrothorn and really bulky Pokemon like Jirachi are taken care of. Sharpedo's fantastic coverage and ability to almost ALWAYS sweep late game gives it a different kind of niche over Gatr that I feel shouldn't really be compared. I feel like Shurtugal's Azumarill comparison was a better fit for the two, since they both have similar roles. I've used Sharpedo a LOT lately, and I must say that I find it much more useful on some of my rain teams then Gatr. It's an all around more reliable cleaner that doesn't even need to worry about setting up. Sharpedo has more flaws then Gatr, but I don't think they're comparable.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I actually disagree with this. Sharpedo isn't neccesarily meant to be an all out sweeper like Feraligatr is, it's more of a late game cleaner that mops the floor with the enemy team once Ferrothorn and really bulky Pokemon like Jirachi are taken care of. Sharpedo's fantastic coverage and ability to almost ALWAYS sweep late game gives it a different kind of niche over Gatr that I feel shouldn't really be compared. I feel like Shurtugal's Azumarill comparison was a better fit for the two, since they both have similar roles.

I dunno, I feel like it requires way too much support to be successful in OU. It needs Ferrothorn, Breloom, and "really bulky Pokemon" removed before it can even attempt to sweep. Gator doesn't need half the support, and Gator actually get's similar coverage (while it doesn't get a Dark STAB attack, it's powerful Waterfall makes up for it imo). Also, I competely forgot that Shurtagal already mentioned Gator, and I agree with you that is a better comparison I guess

Anyway, it's your thread I guess, and people will always have different opinions and I have to respect that.

Edit: @100% to not spam in this thread, this is basically my reply to you as well (since both you and Gary basically said the same thing)

 

[100%]

Don't use this

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Protect

Sharpedo has terrible defenses, as even resisted attacks are taking a nice chunk of damage. Speed Boost is cool and all, but when you're so weak to priority it doesn't really matter. Breloom easily revenge kills this set, as well as Keldeo, Conkeldurr, and Scizor once it's at low enough health (which isn't hard considering SR + LO recoil really chipping away at Sharpedo's health). This set also doesn't really hit that hard either. I mean base 120 attack is nice, as well as the rain boost, but there are much better options. Sharpedo is also walled pretty hard by Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, Gyarados, and Virizion.

Use this instead

Feraligatr @ Mystic Water
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch / Crunch / Super Power

Feraligatr is so much better as filling the role if a physical rain sweeper. First off, it has so much more bulk, allowing it to tank even super effective hits like Rotom-W's Volt Switch while it sets up. Secondly, Gator isn't as weak to priority as Sharpedo is, as it doesn't have a Dark typing, which is a blessing in this case. Feraligatr is also hitting so much harder after a Swords Dance, and it doesn't care too much about Speed Boost because Gator has Aqua Jet, killing off nearly anything faster than it once it's at +2 and in Torrent Range. Feraligatr can also get past some of it's usual counters, depending on what it's coverage move is. Ice punch beats Dragonite, Crunch beats Jellicent, and Super Power beats Ferrothorn.

This makes no sense. Sharpedo is an excellent late-game cleaner and has positive match-ups against most of the metagame. Sharpedo is late-game cleaner, not something that needs a Swords Dance boost to sweep. Once Mach Punch users, and Ferrothorn is removed and some other things have been weakened which is highly likely, it's GG. It runs Zen Headbutt too. If you compared it to Azumarill, I'd agree, but Sharpedo is completely different. It also doesn't rely on Aqua Jet to hit faster opponents.

 

[GCSChris]

Great idea Gary, I think I've got one.

Don't use this:

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
- Earthquake / Earth Power
- Scald / Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover
Why it's bad: Gastrodon is not a horrible Pokemon and can generally be quite useful to sponge up Water-type attacks (no pun intended). It can be especially useful if your team has a glaring weakness to water (and therefore the very threatening rain teams). Gastrodon is not horrible but there is usually little reason to use it over the following...

Use this:

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
- Scald / Surf
- Will-O-Wisp/ Toxic
- Recover
- Taunt

Why it's better: While Gastrodon boasts two immunities (water and electric), unless your team is weak to electric types, there is close to no reason to use it over Jellicent. Jellicent easily forces out Ferrothorn, while Gastrodon has to switch out due to its x4 grass weakness. Jellicent is more suited to be a wall, with access to Toxic, Scald, and Recover just like Gastrodon, but it can take on many utility Pokemon such as the aforementioned Ferrothorn. Jellicent's ability is also more tailored to a defensive Pokemon, as it allows for recovery upon switching in on a Water-type attack. Not to mention, Jellicent boasts a Fighting-type immunity over Gastrodon's Electric- type immunity. Being able to hard-counter Keldeo is HUGE in this meta. Gen V has been said to be the Gen of Fighting-types, and this is the best defensive ghost in the game. It also has access to Will-O-Wisp, being able to neuter Physical attackers more reliably than Scald if needed. On top of all of that, Jellicent can also spin-block.
In short, Water/Ghost typing in addition to similar stats and competitive move-pool to Gastrodon makes it the ideal bulky water type in OU. Not only is Jellicent usually better than Gastrodon, it is a Great pokemon in general, and can really glue some teams together with its outstanding utility and typing.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Great idea Gary, I think I've got one.

Don't use this:

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
- Earthquake / Earth Power
- Scald / Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover
Why it's bad: Gastrodon is not a horrible Pokemon and can generally be quite useful to sponge up Water-type attacks (no pun intended). It can be especially useful if your team has a glaring weakness to water (and therefore the very threatening rain teams). Gastrodon is not horrible but there is usually little reason to use it over the following...

Use this:

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
- Scald / Surf
- Will-O-Wisp/ Toxic
- Recover
- Taunt

Why it's better: While Gastrodon boasts two immunities (water and electric), unless your team is weak to electric types, there is close to no reason to use it over Jellicent. Jellicent easily forces out Ferrothorn, while Gastrodon has to switch out due to its x4 grass weakness. Jellicent is more suited to be a wall, with access to Toxic, Scald, and Recover just like Gastrodon, but it can take on many utility Pokemon such as the aforementioned Ferrothorn. Jellicent's ability is also more tailored to a defensive Pokemon, as it allows for recovery upon switching in on a Water-type attack. Not to mention, Jellicent boasts a Fighting-type immunity over Gastrodon's Electric- type immunity. Being able to hard-counter Keldeo is HUGE in this meta. Gen V has been said to be the Gen of Fighting-types, and this is the best defensive ghost in the game. It also has access to Will-O-Wisp, being able to neuter Physical attackers more reliably than Scald if needed. On top of all of that, Jellicent can also spin-block.
In short, Water/Ghost typing in addition to similar stats and competitive move-pool to Gastrodon makes it the ideal bulky water type in OU. Not only is Jellicent usually better than Gastrodon, it is a Great pokemon in general, and can really glue some teams together with its outstanding utility and typing.

I wouldn't say Jellicent outclasses Gastrodon at all. Gastrodon is immune to Electric type attacks, allowing it to wall Thundurus-T, Jolteon, and other Electric type moves (Specs Latios spamming Thunder, Starmie's Thunderbolt etc). That alone is a good enough reason to use Gastrodon. Gastrodon can also run a pretty legit offensive set, because not only is Gastrodon immune to Water type attacks, it also gets it's special attack boosted to +1

 

[GCSChris]

I wouldn't say Jellicent outclasses Gastrodon at all. Gastrodon is immune to Electric type attacks, allowing it to wall Thundurus-T, Jolteon, and other Electric type moves (Specs Latios spamming Thunder, Starmie's Thunderbolt etc). That along is a good enough reason to use Gastrodon. Gastrodon can also run a pretty legit offensive set, because not only is Gastrodon immune to Water type attacks, it also gets it's special attack boosted to +1

Oh I completely agree, I'm just saying that usually Jellicent is a better fit for the meta, as Electric types such as Thundurus can be checked more easily (although threatening as all hell), at least as a defensive pokemon. Gastrodon can run some weird bulky-offensive sets that can work well, but when I play against Gastrodon I usually find it extremely easy to deal with and underwhelming as a wall. Gastrodon definitely has its niche, but at least IMO I find that Jellicent is overall a better pokemon and checks more threatening Pokemon, having a wider niche than Gastrodon. I've used both, and I usually end up changing Gastrodon to Jellicent.

 

[MikeDawg]

WITH NO DRIZZLE SUPPORT
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
Bold Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes
- Protect / Substitute

Why it's bad. This set is by no means a terrible set, however without rain support it is an inferior set. Protect and Substitute are only used on Tentacruel with Drizzle support because it has excellent access to Rain Dish recovery. When Tentacruel is not supported by drizzle, both of these moves quickly become inferior, especially if one is using Tentacruel on a sand or hail team. I think for some reason people forget that Tentacruel has a rest of a movepool, as this is the only thing listed on site, Tentacruel has plenty of other toys to use if not supported by Drizzle.

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
Bold Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes
- Ice Beam

Why this is better. The appeal of using Ice Beam first off is that you aren't using a pretty much useless move, as Substitute and Protect aren't doing much without Drizzle support. Ice Beam is generally the best option here, hitting incoming Dragons-types hard or offering a relatively decent check to them, in particular Ice Beam is very useful against incoming Latios and Latias. It also scores a ton of damage against Gliscor and Landorus-T, checking the defensive versions nicely. This isn't Tentacruel's only option though. Blizzard is great to use if Tentacruel has hail support. Sludge Bomb is very useful against Breloom if one needs to check it. And Hidden Power Fire is a fine option, especially if using Tentacruel on a sun team. Tentacruel has plenty of those tools to play with Knock Off, Rest, Giga Drain, ect although generally they are inferior to the above options.

Also, on Rain Dish, Liquid Ooze in theory may seem like a better option, but leeching moves aren't common enough, only really found on Ferrothorn, to justify its use over the extra recovery in the opponents rain.

Keep in mind the benefit of liquid ooze for giga volc and venusaur. It can be a latch ditch check to these terrifying sweepers!

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Jellicent ability to spinblock and taunt is just too much to pass up. Sorry but jelly simply outclass every single bulk water (except toed) its not even funny. Unless your team is really weak to electric i see no reason to use gastro over it.

 

[asterat]

I honestly don't agree with a lot of "this is bad" arguments. Of course electivire and haxorus are outclassed, but pokemon like metagross and jolteon have a lot of uses. Donphan is freaking amazing in rain, sand, sun, you name it. It takes hits really well and has the super useful ice shard. Forretress is slow and generally weak. If you use jolteon, you don't really need a choice scarf user. It can revenge all the threats you struggle with. Here I saved a log of me beating BKC (agreed to be an excellent OU player) playing sloppily but still winning because I used a BU conkeldurr. These aren't bad sets, you guys just don't like them. Also this proves why giga drain celebi is horrible. The only post I agree with here is Magcargo2's...
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest9445100

 

[MikeDawg]

Well since my mind is on Blissey, I might as well do this

WITH SAND OR HAIL SUPPORT
Chansey @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Heal Bell / Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss

Why its bad: This is pretty much a compilation of almost everything that can go wrong with Chansey / Blissey, even though this is a little extreme, I have actually seen people use sets very much like this on the ladder and even in the RMT forum. In order to properly examine its flaws, I need a bulleted list.

• First off, Chansey is being used on a team with passive damage, without leftovers it is having damage done to it every single turn. This passive damage pretty much eliminates the bulk Chansey has over Blissey.
• This Chansey has no defensive investment, meaning it is taking an obnoxious amount of damage from physical attacks. While Chansey is a primarily special wall, it does not like being destroyed by Pursuit or Psyshock. Take for example, how much damage this Chansey takes from Scizor's Pursuit: 252+ Atk Choice Band Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Chansey: 483-569 (68.6 - 80.82%). By just swapping the HP and Defense, Chansey takes half that damage 252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 208-245 (32.39 - 38.16%).
• This Chansey's only recovery is Wish, if Chansey were to be potentially 2HKOed by something, even a weak attack, it literally can not heal it's self in time. Wish Chansey or Blissey needs Protect or Softboiled to make sure it can consistently recover its health.

Blissey @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Calm Nature
- Softboiled
- Wish / Aromatherapy / Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss / Flamethrower
- Toxic

Why this is better: Blissey is superior in this situation as there is hail or sand support, Blissey does not take passive damage to it thanks to leftovers. Chansey is by no means a bad Pokemon, but if you want to use it, don't use it on you sand or hail team, preferably Chansey enjoys being on a rain or sun team. With at least 252 investment in Defense, Blissey takes Pursuits fine, no longer being almost 1HKOed by them: 252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 284-335 (39.77 - 46.91%). This Blissey has Softboiled, meaning it has consistent recovery, making it a much better wall. If you are using Wish, Protect may be used over Softboiled, but don't run Wish alone.

Side note: This set only has one slot for supporting moves, if you want, you can ditch Toxic or Blissey's attacks to run another support move. If you do this, make sure your team is capable of combating the Pokemon Blissey can no longer wall, like Heatran if you ditch Seismic Toss.

---

@ShootinStarmie

Shouldn't that Forretress be using a Relaxed nature, to further decrease its speed for Gyro Ball and not lower its special attack for Volt Switch?

Just a note: shouldn't you be using 252def/252spdef calm on blissey?

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I honestly don't agree with a lot of "this is bad" arguments. Of course electivire and haxorus are outclassed, but pokemon like metagross and jolteon have a lot of uses. Donphan is freaking amazing in rain, sand, sun, you name it. It takes hits really well and has the super useful ice shard. Forretress is slow and generally weak. If you use jolteon, you don't really need a choice scarf user. It can revenge all the threats you struggle with. Here I saved a log of me beating BKC (agreed to be an excellent OU player) playing sloppily but still winning because I used a BU conkeldurr. These aren't bad sets, you guys just don't like them. Also this proves why giga drain celebi is horrible. The only post I agree with here is Magcargo2's...
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest9445100

Well, I know we are saying why these Pokemon are bad, but most posters are acknowledging that these Pokemon aren't bad, but they're just generally outclassed (which most are). Your opinion on Donphan isn't going to change everyone else opinion, which is why this is a thread in the first place (to open up discussion and to help newer players out).

Why it's bad: Jolteon is by no means a bad Pokemon, but ever since Thundurus-T was released in BW2, there is little reason to ever use Jolteon anymore.

tl;dr we don't think they are bad Pokemon, just not as good

 

[MCBarrett]

Why would Gastrodon and Jellicent even be compared? Besides being bulky with a water immunity they serve totally different team roles with Gastrodon being a straight wall and Jellicent being a Utility mon/ Spin Blocker. Both are viable options depending on the rest of your team and what type of support it needs. You should only say you should use 'Pokemon X' over 'Pokemon Y' because it outclasses it in nearly every significant way or you should specify that you should only use 'Pokemon X' over 'Pokemon Y' in a certain situation. e.g. use Jellicent over Gastrodon if you need a Water Immunity that does well against stall.

 

[MikeDawg]

I don't neccesarily agree with the examples, but I do certainly agree with the sentiment of asterat's post. This kind of thread is subjective as hell, and that's the one qualm I have with them. There are quite a few times where I think "Eh... I don't know about that" to an addition.

To help circumvent this, a sort of qc system could be implemented: someone posts one, then 3 people have to approve (or dissaprove) of it with reasoning to have it added to the op?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Just a note: shouldn't you be using 252def/252spdef calm on blissey?

Max HP for Wishs, it also adds more physical defense in exchange for special defense, idk I guess its not the standard spread but it works fine enough (if I remember correctly the difference in bulk isn't that much). If anyone has a problem with it I can change it.

To help circumvent this, a sort of qc system could be implemented: someone posts one, then 3 people have to approve (or dissaprove) of it with reasoning to have it added to the op?

That is way to slow, I think Gary and maybe a panel of other select users would more effectively decide what goes on the OP or not.

 

[MikeDawg]

Max HP for Wishs, it also adds more physical defense in exchange for special defense, idk I guess its not the standard spread but it works fine enough (if I remember correctly the difference in bulk isn't that much). If anyone has a problem with it I can change it.



That is way to slow, I think Gary and maybe a panel of other select users would more effectively decide what goes on the OP or not.

Would it not be quicker to just have 3 users in general approve? I don't see how it would be all that slow given the disproportion between lurkers and active contibuters here. It would clean up the op while encouraging discussion (and why the rush? :p)

 

[Nix_Hex]

We aren't going to have any sort of QC process here. If gary or an OU mod would like to see a set in the OP, they can put it in themselves.

edit: MikeDawg, you suggested 3 users approving. I disagree with that (Gary has solid judgment, he's a trusted community member and this is his thread). But I agree with you otherwise!

 

[MikeDawg]

We aren't going to have any sort of QC process here. If gary or an OU mod would like to see a set in the OP, they can put it in themselves.

Ohhh. I was under the impression that the sets were going in the op in general (like a newbie resource). If that isn't the case, there is no need

 

[Gary]

I feel like a lot of you guys are taking this a bit too seriously. When I say things like, "Why this is bad" I don't seriously mean that it's a bad Pokemon. For example, I made it quite clear that Jolteon is a great Pokemon aside from it being majorly outclassed by Thundurus-T. That's just the way the UU and RU thread did it, so I took advice from them. If you want, I will change the OP format to better match the purpose of this thread, because I don't want people to actually think that certain Pokemon and sets are particularly bad.

@Rayquaza_: The other threads aren't just sets you know. They sometimes have Pokemon being replaced for other Pokemon like using Kabutops over Hitmonchan for example. I feel like we should be allowed to recommend a certain Pokemon over another, because some Pokemon are just so damn niche that it would make sense that you should mostly be using something else. For example, MixMence is a cool set, but why would you use it when there's something like Kyurem-B?

So I'll change the format so people don't get confused. If enough of you disagree with someone's recommendations, then I wont add it to the OP. I'll also be removing a few from the OP, because a few of them I feel are a bit biased an unfair.

Ohhh. I was under the impression that the sets were going in the op in general (like a newbie resource). If that isn't the case, there is no need

It actually was more of a newbie recourse at first, but now that some sets are starting to become a bit controversial, I'm going to be a lot more strict on what goes in the OP.