Thank you. For some reason, people seem to get pissed off when you call something niche outclassed or compare it to something that's better all around. Jolteon is obviously outclassed by Thundurus-T in pretty much every way bar it's incredible speed stat, but Thundurus-T should still be used in pretty much every other situation. Same with Jellicent and Vaporeon. Most niche Pokemon are outclassed in some one anyway. They still have a use in OU, but I don't see a problem in comparing them to better things. I want people to realize that yes Pokemon like Jolteon can be used, but most of the time you SHOULD be using Thundurus-T.That shouldn't be the ONLY goal. Of course you can do same pokemon (I did with Lucario) but I think it's just as informative of an exercise to show similar Pokemon. Heck, Jolteon / Thundurus-T is the first example in the OP! I don't see what the big deal is lol.
There are several reasons why I don't agree with this, but I'll back to you later.DONT USE THIS
Starmie@ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
Why it's bad ?:
Defensive starmie is plain useless for me, ok he got rapid spinn but the only ghost he can break through is Gengar, which special defense is ridiculously weak. This set can't break through Jellicent (he can toxic/wow+taunt stall him, or straight murdering him with shadow ball) and even SABLEYE who got less base special defense than Gengar. (65 vs 75 lmao) This set is also countered by a lot of known pokemon, like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, the Lati twins...which you do NOT want to have a free opportunity to Draco Meteor your team for the 2 dragons. This set also suffers from the "4 slot syndrome" : No matter what 2 attacks you use (Scald+Hp fire / Psyshock / Tbolt / Ice beam), you'll always be in a bad position. Scald+Hp fire or Ice beam is like saying "Jellicent wall me !" or Scald+Tbolt sounds like "Party" for Ferrothorn, Celebi, Virizion or Breloom.
USE THIS:
Starmie@ Life Orb
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock / Thunder
- Ice Beam
WHY IT'S BETTER ?
Analytic Starmie is the best Spinner in the OU metagame, i'm gonna let the calcs speak by themself (thanks alexworlf for them btw ( http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-the-thread-no-shitty-gimmicks.3475986/page-7 )
Hydro Pump
Thunder
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 151-178 (37.37 - 44.05%) -- possible 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 144-170 (47.52 - 56.1%) -- nearly guaranteed 2HKO with Psyshock after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 159-187 (45.17 - 53.12%) --
Psyshock
- vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 354-419 (87.84 - 103.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 265-312 (65.59 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 174-205 (58.19 - 68.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ice Beam
- vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 364-430 (55.82 - 65.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 235-278 (58.16 - 68.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 185-218 (45.67 - 53.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 173-204 (38.1 - 44.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
- vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.75 - 68.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Gastrodon: 226-266 (53.05 - 62.44%) -- 2HKO after Stealth Rock more than 50% of the time
Yeah you saw it, this set can 2HKO and even OHKO Jellicent, who is the bulkiest spinnblocker in the game, even mons like Ferrothorn have a hard time countering it without losing a lot of HP. Off course it is a bit weaker defensively but he still can switch on Scarfkeldeo Stabb / Heatran's Fire Blast, and he spinns better, which his is premier job.
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 294-346 (82.81 - 97.46%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 270-320 (89.4 - 105.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I too find bulky starmie to be useless, but life orb starmie plays a completely different role. It doesn't exactly outclass it, just plays differently. This is like saying use special lando over physical or scarf keldeo over specsDONT USE THIS
Starmie@ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
Why it's bad ?:
Defensive starmie is plain useless for me, ok he got rapid spinn but the only ghost he can break through is Gengar, which special defense is ridiculously weak. This set can't break through Jellicent (he can toxic/wow+taunt stall him, or straight murdering him with shadow ball) and even SABLEYE who got less base special defense than Gengar. (65 vs 75 lmao) This set is also countered by a lot of known pokemon, like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, the Lati twins...which you do NOT want to have a free opportunity to Draco Meteor your team for the 2 dragons. This set also suffers from the "4 slot syndrome" : No matter what 2 attacks you use (Scald+Hp fire / Psyshock / Tbolt / Ice beam), you'll always be in a bad position. Scald+Hp fire or Ice beam is like saying "Jellicent wall me !" or Scald+Tbolt sounds like "Party" for Ferrothorn, Celebi, Virizion or Breloom.
USE THIS:
Starmie@ Life Orb
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock / Thunder
- Ice Beam
WHY IT'S BETTER ?
Analytic Starmie is the best Spinner in the OU metagame, i'm gonna let the calcs speak by themself (thanks alexworlf for them btw ( http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-the-thread-no-shitty-gimmicks.3475986/page-7 )
Hydro Pump
Thunder
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 151-178 (37.37 - 44.05%) -- possible 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 144-170 (47.52 - 56.1%) -- nearly guaranteed 2HKO with Psyshock after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 159-187 (45.17 - 53.12%) --
Psyshock
- vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 354-419 (87.84 - 103.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 265-312 (65.59 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 174-205 (58.19 - 68.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ice Beam
- vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 364-430 (55.82 - 65.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 235-278 (58.16 - 68.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 185-218 (45.67 - 53.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 173-204 (38.1 - 44.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
- vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.75 - 68.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Gastrodon: 226-266 (53.05 - 62.44%) -- 2HKO after Stealth Rock more than 50% of the time
Yeah you saw it, this set can 2HKO and even OHKO Jellicent, who is the bulkiest spinnblocker in the game, even mons like Ferrothorn have a hard time countering it without losing a lot of HP. Off course it is a bit weaker defensively but he still can switch on Scarfkeldeo Stabb / Heatran's Fire Blast, and he spinns better, which his is premier job.
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 294-346 (82.81 - 97.46%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 270-320 (89.4 - 105.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Full stop: Starmie distinguishes itself from other bulky waters by having Rapid Spin. (its speed is also great to check threats, but that's not the main selling point)As a starmie, the power and the ability to actually deal with the spinnblocker is worth the lack of bulk, as a defensive bulky water in stall / defensive teams he is outclassed by Jellicent / Rotom-w / Slowbro ...even Gyarados is a better deal
Forretress can nail Gengar pretty dam hard with Gyroball to be fair.What spin blockers is Forretress beating? Sub Disable Gengar? Jellicent? Sableye?
Is this a joke? I have never seen Forretress ever beating any variant of Gengar because it either has HP Fire or Disable to cancel Gyro Ball. The only way Forretress can beat Gengar is if it predicts the switch and goes for Gyro Ball, but that's unreliable. Jellicent resists Gyro Ball and uses Taunt to prevent Forretress from setting up. Sableye also carries Taunt, and it burns Forretress with Will-O-Wisp. This post is just wrong on so many levels that I refuse to ever consider putting that Starmie set in the OP if you're going to use that kind of BS support.Forretress can set-up spikes, spinn, win against spinn blockers, tank outrages and 2hko nite / chomp with gyro ball / hp ice, it gains momentum with volt switch which is very important againt Heavy offensive team, when lil' starmie is a free set-up, forretress lacks recover but that's about it.
As a starmie, the power and the ability to actually deal with the spinnblocker is worth the lack of bulk, as a defensive bulky water in stall / defensive teams he is outclassed by Jellicent / Rotom-w / Slowbro ...even Gyarados is a better deal lmao, and Forretress is a better spinner in my opinion.
Yeah but Sub Disable beats that (which is why I specified). You would have to predict the switch into Gengar, but that goes both ways, so I still wouldn't say it beats spin blockers. The funny thing is that Starmie is one of two spinners that actually CAN beat all spinners.Ignoring your Forretress comparison because it makes no sense.
Full stop: Starmie distinguishes itself from other bulky waters by having Rapid Spin. (its speed is also great to check threats, but that's not the main selling point)
Forretress can nail Gengar pretty dam hard with Gyroball to be fair.
How does Volt Switch have anything to do with Forretress beating a spin blocker..... Forretress can't beat a spinblocker 1v1, which is the whole point of this discussion. Forretress obviously can't beat spinblockers because it needs support from T-Tar. Starmie can with Psyshock for Gengar, and Thunder for Jellicent. Forretress needs help. Lol this discussion is stupid.You know, when you Rapid spinn, it´s actually the Spinnblocker that is supposed to switch on the spinner and gengar got straight killed by gyro ball, and I guess you never heard lf volt switch / toxic...Forget what I said, i'm not wasting my time anymore I'm out of this lmao
Hmmm... I feel that this needs a bit more discussion before it can go in the OP. Although I agree with you that the Offensive SD set is hard to pull off, I have had major success with the Sub Salac SD set, which is only a slight variation from the classic LO SD set. I do personally prefer the CB set over the Offensive SD set, but I don't want people to think that its Sub Salac set is also inferior to the Banded set, because that's not true at all. They play completely different roles.Who loves being controversial? I love being controversial. I do I do I do-oo!
Don't use this!
Terrakion @ Life Orb/Rock Gem
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Quick Attack / X-Scissor
Why it's bad: In a few words, Terrakion is never safe when setting up. As we all know, Fighting/Rock is the best STAB combination we have ever seen in OU (only Reshiram could be said to have better STABs, and that's counting Turboblaze), but it leaves you horribly horribly vulnerable defensively. Terrakion is weak to six types. The other two type combinations with more weaknesses are Grass/Psychic and Grass/Ice with 7 apiece. So while +2 Terrakion is very much impossible to switch into, he's so laughably easy to revenge as have not even bothered setting up. Substitute mitigates this, but is still very far from perfect.
Use this instead!
Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide / Quick Attack / Earthquake / Sacred Sword / Hidden Power Ice
Why it's better: Here, Terrakion shines as the hit-and-run wallbreaking juggernaut of "Fuck you" he was always meant to be. He's not worrying about Scarf Keldeo coming in, because if he does on the wrong attack, whoops, there goes Keldeo. Now, perhaps this is all a product of my own poor use of Terrakion, but I feel that it's fair to say that "Greatest Choice Band User Ever" does not equal "Good Boosting Attacker". To be entirely honest, the 3rd and 4th move slots are mostly filler. Fighting/Rock truly is the best STAB combination in OU, and Terrakion is more than tailor-made to crush everything in his path with just his STABs.
Conk is used because it hits like a truck to recover ALL that HP gone with drain punch.Don't use this...
Conkeldurr@ Leftovers
Iron Fist
120 HP, 252 Atk, 136 SpDef
Brave Nature
-Bulk Up
-Mach Punch
-Ice Punch/Payback
-Drain Punch
Why its not good: On paper, Conkeldurr seems like an ok wallbreaker. He can beat Ghosts and Flyers, and he has a sweet movepool. However, than one sees the crippling flaws of Conkeldurr. Unlike Chunky Kong, Conkeldurr is not one hell of a guy, while still being about as slow as your grandmother during prune season, while looking the part to boot. Also, while Conkeldurr can beat Ghosts and Flyers, he cant beat both, and as a result can be easy to defeat. However, Conkeldurr's biggest flaw is his low special bulk, which in this Keldeo dominant era, is such a disappointment as any decent special attacker can ruin Conkeldurr, making him an easy target for the likes of Latios, Keldeo, Starmie, and other threats such as Rotom W in rain.
Gallade @ Leftovers
Justified
240 HP, 56 Def, 212 SpDef
Careful Nature
-Bulk Up
-Shadow Sneak
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
Why this is better: Gallade not only solves our issue of bulk and speed, but also of coverage. Looking at Gallade, the attractive qualities are his extra resistances and high Special defense make him an ideal tank. Gallade is much harder to revenge kill after a bulk up or two than Conk, as he can actually take a hit. Gallade also has the interesting Shadow Sneak, which is unique among fighters, allowing him to defeat the Ghosts and Psychics in ones way easily, while still having both priority and coverage. Justified also is a cool ability, as it gives one the occasional boost. Overall, Gallade is a better tanky bulk up user than conk due to his higher special bulk, useful resistances, and unique movepool...