Don't use that, use this [OU Edition]

[Chou Toshio]

Volcarona is still a fearsome pokemon for the metagame, (btw fire blast is still viable over hp water imo)

Part of the point being addressed is that Fire Blast is better than HP Water, even on Volcarona. HP Water is used, and that's one thing I'm recommending as not-good. If people take away from this that they should use Fire Blast instead of HP Water on their rain volc, that is also a value this thread (that post) is adding.

Honestly though, remember that this thread is about specific sets-- not Pokemon overall. You have no right to bring up Fire Blast Volc as a criticism of my post, because I was criticizing HP Water Volc specifically.

you can't break throught team with Moltres, it's less powerful even with random calcs, ( like yeah hurricane with stabb hits better and stuff) you can't break through things like Tyranitar (you'd be surprise to see how little Hp fight does) and beating SS is a great win condition for any Rain team.

252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Fighting vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 286-338 (74.09 - 87.56%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also, you can break through offensive teams quite well with Moltres. The role both Pokemon are taking is "powerful Hurricane abusers that has some defensive benefit, and can also threaten sun." That was the whole reason people started using rain Volc in the fist place-- that it had surprising synergy with Rain, and could wreck sun.

Honestly though, Moltres does most of this better. It abuses Hurricane better for obvious reasons. It is a bigger asset against Sun with Fire Blast than Volcarona is with HP Water (which is the set I referenced-- there's no point in bringing up Fire Blast volc in the context of my post). Furthermore, being able to out-speed Venusaur with 1 turn of set up drives the point of being effective against sun home.

Moltres can wall-break without Timid 100 Speed, since that speed tier isn't all that great in this meta anyway, and Moltres' bulk and resistances aid it (plus it just wall breaks better in general)

While it can't bust through stall teams as well, Rain has better pokes for that anyway (Keldeo...), and Moltres' +2 Speed out pacing the most common CS users makes it overall more suited for sweeping in this metagame.

And i don't really like the fact that you're trying to sell your Moltres by putting Volcarona down a lot, if you can spinn the SR, why not being hit by spikes / TS is so great then ?

Or course, you will always keep Spikes AND SR off the field. Just because they both need Spin support doesn't mean Spikes immunity isn't an asset-- it just means that Moltres can come in that much more often and be that much more durable.

Why not talking about how volcarona can start to beat stalls like Jellicent by using QD multiple times while Moltres will be at +0 for ever ?

Moltres hitting Jellicent:
252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 261-308 (64.76 - 76.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Volcarona setting up on Jellicent:
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona in rain: 218-260 (70.09 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona in rain: 146-174 (46.94 - 55.94%) -- 69.92% chance to 2HKO

Why not talking about how bad Moltres movepool is ? Hurricane / FB / Hp and there you go, Volcarona can have Hp water, Giga drain, Roost, a fire move....

Because again, this is the "Don't use that, use this." thread, where we talk about specific sets (like in the rules) instead of Pokemon. I listed the specific sets-- what's in the Pokemon's total move pools is irrelevant.

Besides, Rain Volc is even less efficient overall with Giga Drain or Roost.

Also, moltres has everything it needs offensively in those moves. How is the fact that it doesn't have moves for much variation at all relevant within the context of this thread, and my post?

Why not talking about Moltres counters ? I mean, off course you will beat a fight pokemon with a Flying stabb...

I'm not writing an analysis here. I already have my contributor badge.

Imo Volcarona is overall better in sun for beating scarfkeldeo with giga drain, but i really don't think moltres is better than him, and there's a reason why Moltres is less played than Volcarona, even in Rain.

You're not instilling in me confidence that you understand how this thread works.

 

[Gary]

Part of the point being addressed is that Fire Blast is better than HP Water, even on Volcarona. HP Water is used, and that's one thing I'm recommending as not-good. If people take away from this that they should use Fire Blast instead of HP Water on their rain volc, that is also a value this thread (that post) is adding.

Honestly though, remember that this thread is about specific sets-- not Pokemon overall. You have no right to bring up Fire Blast Volc as a criticism of my post, because I was criticizing HP Water Volc specifically.



252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Fighting vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 286-338 (74.09 - 87.56%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also, you can break through offensive teams quite well with Moltres. The role both Pokemon are taking is "powerful Hurricane abusers that has some defensive benefit, and can also threaten sun." That was the whole reason people started using rain Volc in the fist place-- that it had surprising synergy with Rain, and could wreck sun.

Honestly though, Moltres does most of this better. It abuses Hurricane better for obvious reasons. It is a bigger asset against Sun with Fire Blast than Volcarona is with HP Water (which is the set I referenced-- there's no point in bringing up Fire Blast volc in the context of my post). Furthermore, being able to out-speed Venusaur with 1 turn of set up drives the point of being effective against sun home.

Moltres can wall-break without Timid 100 Speed, since that speed tier isn't all that great in this meta anyway, and Moltres' bulk and resistances aid it (plus it just wall breaks better in general)

While it can't bust through stall teams as well, Rain has better pokes for that anyway (Keldeo...), and Moltres' +2 Speed makes it overall more suited for sweeping in this metagame.



Or course, you will always keep Spikes AND SR off the field. Just because they both need Spin support doesn't mean Spikes immunity isn't an asset-- it just means that Moltres can come in that much more often and be that much more durable.



Moltres hitting Jellicent:
252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 261-308 (64.76 - 76.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Volcarona setting up on Jellicent:
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona in rain: 218-260 (70.09 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona in rain: 146-174 (46.94 - 55.94%) -- 69.92% chance to 2HKO



Because again, this is the "Don't use that, use this." thread, where we talk about specific sets (like in the rules) instead of Pokemon. I listed the specific sets-- what's in the Pokemon's total move pools is irrelevant.

Besides, Rain Volc is even less efficient overall with Giga Drain or Roost.

Also, moltres has everything it needs offensively in those moves. How is the fact that it doesn't have moves for much variation at all relevant within the context of this thread, and my post?



I'm not writing an analysis here. I already have my contributor badge.



You're not instilling in me confidence that you understand how this thread works.

Good rebuttal Chou. I have to agree that I've never found Rain Volcarona that amazing. I'd much rather use the standard sweeping set with QD / Fire Blast / Giga Drain / Bug Buzz. Moltres is a bitch to face, and I've been swept a few times by good players that know how to utilize that thing properly.

You're not instilling in me confidence that you understand how this thread works.

A lot of people don't seem to understand this thread lol. It's the simplest concept, yet some people have to make it sound much more complicated.

 

[Spinda]

Good rebuttal Chou. I have to agree that I've never found Rain Volcarona that amazing. I'd much rather use the standard sweeping set with QD / Fire Blast / Giga Drain / Bug Buzz. Moltres is a bitch to face, and I've been swept a few times by good players that know how to utilize that thing properly.



A lot of people don't seem to understand this thread lol. It's the simplest concept, yet some people have to make it sound much more complicated.

Could you explain it?

 

[dadoux]

Gary, you're threatening me for saying something and you post "Good rebuttal chou !!!", I like to talk with people but being 3 vs 1 is kinda ridiculous, and it does not make me wanna speak about things, I'm not saying that i'm 100% right, but i feel like I'm wrong against every badged member since they got a hundred likes lol.

180 hp ttar is bad, the sassy version tank it way better. And if you are bringing sets that are on site and are bad, off course you will build up a better version with anything you want in it.

 

[Halcyon.]

How is BandTar (the one that runs 180 HP EVs...) bad?

 

[Chou Toshio]

180 hp ttar is bad, the sassy version tank it way better.

Not at what 180 HP ttar does, which is be a CB wall breaker...

While I somewhat agree with you (I'm not a big fan of using CB tar), it is a pretty standard set, so showing it as an example of Moltres' power is totally legitimate. For the record, Stone Edge tends to be pretty inefficient (and rare) on the Sassy Tank (you'll see Crunch / Superpower / SR / Fire Blast / Pursuit more frequently-- all of which Moltres can tank), so HP Fighting still gives Moltres a good shot to come out on top.

BTW-- If you don't like CB tar, or 180 HP ttar in general-- that would be a perfect example of something to try posting about in this thread.

And if you are bringing sets that are on site and are bad, off course you will build up a better version with anything you want in it.

^The POINT of this THREAD is to look at sets that are onsite (or at least common) and bad (or at least potentially bad/inefficient).

 

[dadoux]

I like Cb ttar, but with things like latios i wanna tank as much as possible, so I'd rather have those 76 evs in spD or in Hp, the speed evs sounds pretty situationnal instead of taking hits.

And ok I got it lol, it should explained it clearer in the OP

 

[Goutland]

Uhhhh I hope this isn't a shitty example of replacing one niche with another one like mentioned above, but here's one I see a lot that I think really shouldn't be used as much as it is:


Don't use this:

Breloom @ Focus Sash / Fighting Gem
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Swords Dance

This Breloom set is generally used as a lead, trying to spore something turn one and then dealing heavy damage with its technician boosted STABs. The problem is, Breloom cannot sweep from turn two after setting up an SD. Your opponent will just bring in their check and kill you or force you out on turn three, making your setup all for naught. Despite it hitting like a truck, it is very difficult to sweep with Breloom at any point of the game due to its limited STAB coverage, low speed, and frailty. And due to wanting to get off your spore as early as possible (because sleep is pretty much a KO in gen 5), you'll rarely find the time to set up even when it's late enough in the game where you can sweep.

Use this instead:

Breloom @ Focus Sash / Fighting Gem
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Focus Punch

With focus punch over SD, you now become a potent wallbreaker with the ability to cripple your opponent's switch in (after spore) even harder than a +2 mach punch would, and without having to sacrifice Breloom in the process. Using a fighting gem with this set is just icing on the cake, as even pokemon that resist focus punch will take massive damage. If you thought Latios was a safe switch in, think again:

252 Atk Fighting Gem Breloom Focus Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Latios: 73.42% - 86.71% (2 hits to KO)

Now that's power. So instead of carrying a setup move you'll almost never use effectively, try out focus punch instead for a free one time nuke that requires no setup (besides spore) and also lets you switch out if you don't OHKO or kill your opponent's switch in with focus punch + mach punch.

Also I like Moltres in rain. :D

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

This is kinda late but...

The POINT of this THREAD is to look at sets that are onsite (or at least common) and bad (or at least potentially bad/inefficient).

I really don't like the precedent of this part, especially the whole "bad on-site set" thing. The people in C&C try to make only viable things go on-site and limiting yourself to something that the Quality Control team deemed viable really limits what you can post. In a theoretical sense, everything on-site should be good, otherwise they wouldn't have made it on the site!

There are plenty of things that are not on-site and still not very good but still unusually common, or move options that are obscure. For instance, in RU, people on the ladder enjoy using Stealth Rock lead Aerodactyl - this is a bad set and is also not on-site because of the fact that it is bad. A similar case goes with Foresight + Rapid Spin Hitmonchan - it's bad, but still sees usage. They are both residents of the RU "Don't use this, use that" thread, (which was created first) and both present alternative sets for a bad Pokemon or set.

The same goes with Swampert - you all kind of brushed off the guy who posted about it, but bear in mind that defensive Swampert DOES see usage on the ladder. It's pretty bad and the alternative presented is a superior option for an unusually common but still terrible set. What's wrong with that? The OP doesn't say that every example needs to be a bad on-site set (unless you can redirect me to it) so I don't see how everything needs to be of that nature.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^I agree, I get it Swamp-Rocket-- but I was just making the point that "common" sets (like those on site) are the target of this thread. I did qualify in parentheses that what we're really looking for is common sets (and many onsite sets are common).

And you do have to admit, not EVERY set and EVERY analysis is super up to date and optimal. The quality of writing in the analyses is better than it's ever been, and the sets themselves are good when they go on-site, but stuff like Hurricane Volcarona are sets that were mostly popularized in BW. Things like Para-shuffle Dragonite or Sub / Roost / DD Dragonite would be fair game for this thread too imo.

Alternatively, Pokemon like Vaporeon, Jolteon, and Metagross need OU analyses because they are OU-- that doesn't mean their onsite sets are awesome in the metagame.

Just to clarify-- I don't think that C&C has to keep sets super up-to-date; if they're good overall analyses then it's fine. Showing some out-dated sets isn't even that bad, since knowing a "history" of the mon is in fact a useful thing. Also, analyses show some of the best options a Pokemon has-- in general, we don't deny sets from going on-site just because something else out classes it; where as this thread is ALL about outclassing stuff.

ie. Even if I used Hurricane Volc in this thread as an example, doesn't mean I think Hurricane Volc should be removed from the analysis.

I don't think whether or not a set appears in this thread should have any bearing on the quality of onsite analyses.

I like Cb ttar, but with things like latios i wanna tank as much as possible, so I'd rather have those 76 evs in spD or in Hp, the speed evs sounds pretty situationnal instead of taking hits.

And ok I got it lol, it should explained it clearer in the OP

Good, glad we straightened things up (though things are explained in the OP...)

Also just for the record...

252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast (or Hurricane) vs. 180 HP / 76 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 84-100 (21.76 - 25.9%) -- possible 4HKO

followed by:
252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Fighting vs. 180 HP / 76 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 265-312 (68.65 - 80.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So no... Tyranitar cannot switch into an HP Fighting Moltres... ie. yes, Moltres CAN break through Tyranitar if the opponent is trying to use TTar as Moltres' main check...

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok, I have another one.

Don't use this...

Forretress @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Atk
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock / Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball

Why not? Well, people have been using specially defensive Forretress for a long time. It naturally has great defense, so you might think it's unnecessary to invest in it at all. Why not put that bulk in special defense, where it will actually be useful? Well, see, the problem with that logic is that it actually isn't useful. When you consider all the special attackers in OU, the ones that are going to be hitting Forretress will 2HKO it even with the added special bulk. Things like Keldeo, Starmie, Gengar, Alakazam, Thundurus-T, Hydreigon, SpecsToed, Ninetales, Venusaur, and every other special attacker will still be doing serious damage to Forretress, but you won't be able to tank Outrages and other Dragon type attacks nearly as well. And forget checking Terrakion. Heck, even Latios is still doing over half with Draco Meteor! SDef Forretress just has no place in this meta.
...use this instead!

Forretress @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock / Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball

Why? The standard Forretress set is much better at simply doing its job: setting hazards while checking physical attackers and specifically tanking Outrages. It's naturally high defense is made astronomical by fully investing in it. There's just no way that Scarf Salamence will be sweeping your team as long as you have this little guy alive. Same goes for that Banded Dragonite. Forretress stops many physical attacker (especially Dragons) cold. It also makes it a decent check to Kyurem-B, since Outrage won't 2HKO it, and it can 2HKO back with Gyro Ball. While some may dispute the effectiveness of Forretress in the metagame as a whole, few would suggest that the SDef set is even on the same level as the classic defensive set.

 

[Himanattsu]

I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room, here.

Don't use:

Donphan @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Shard

Why it's bad: Donphan just doesn't have the staying power that most people expect, and it's offenses are sub-par. Sure, it has decent Defense, but that means nothing when every special attacker in the tier (even Air Balloon Heatran!) can come in whenever it wants and force you out / 2HKO you right off the bat. Because of it's sub-par offenses, Levitators such as Gengar, Latias, and Latios can switch in easily (Ice Shard won't do enough damage to them,) but that's not the end of it. Things like Breloom, Celebi, Jellicent, and Politoed, can counter it--and the list goes on!

Use this:

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SAtk / 224 Spd
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Psyshock
- Recover

Why it's better: Bulky Rapid Spin Starmie boasts greater staying power and better offensive presence over Donphan. Though it is vunerable to Spikes and SR, Natural Cure makes it so that it can come into Toxic Spikes with ease. It can threaten Dragons with Ice Beam, with more power than a mediocre Ice Shard. Gengar is no issue, as you can opt for Psyshock to make quick work of it (Scald works too). It has reliable recovery, so it can come in throughout the match to spin hazards away. Starmie has a wide array of coverage options, as well, so you can mix and match Surf, BoltBeam and Psychic to fit your team's needs.

Conclusion: Some people argue that Donphan is better than Starmie on Sun teams, which is usually a wrong assumption. Sure, Donphan's Water- weakness is mitigated under the Sun. However, you still have Ninetales, as well as one or two Fire- sweepers that add to your Water- weakness, and it's low Special Defense means that it's going to get 2HKO'd by strong Water- type attacks anyways. Starmie is good in Sun, as well as in any other weather. Starmie boasts a Water- resistance, and it can opt to use Thunderbolt to fry any Water- types who want to switch in. If you lose the weather war against sun, Starmie can back you up by severely denting Hippowdon in Sand, and it can hit hard with a Water- type STAB of your choice in rain. The only thing Donphan boasts is an immunity to Electric- type attacks. Rotom-W can 2HKO with Hydro Pump, and Donphan can't 3HKO Thundurus-T with Ice Shard. That leaves Magnezone, which is something that Donphan is actually good at killing--but every other Fire- type (and Venusaur) can kill it just as well. Overall, if you REALLY need the Electric- immunity on a Sun team, then you shouldn't be using Donphan in OU.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

@Halcyon of Light

I see that you are still putting a hefty bit of special investment into Forretress despite to dissing the specially defensive set. Mind explaining the use of these mixed defenses?

I agree though, specially defensive Forretress is poo, its a vestige of the DPP era, I have a hard time justifying any special defense on Forretress, maybe to take Alakazam and Gengar's Focus Blast better? Yeah that's all I can think of.

(I also don't like Spikes and Stealth Rock on one Forretress, someone should have other Pokemon for another hazard, to each his own though)

 

[Trainer Au]

@Halcyon of Light

I see that you are still putting a hefty bit of special investment into Forretress despite to dissing the specially defensive set. Mind explaining the use of these mixed defenses?

I agree though, specially defensive Forretress is poo, its a vestige of the DPP era, I have a hard time justifying any special defense on Forretress, maybe to take Alakazam and Gengar's Focus Blast better? Yeah that's all I can think of.

(I also don't like Spikes and Stealth Rock on one Forretress, someone should have other Pokemon for another hazard, to each his own though)

That was definitely a typo, he meant use phys def forre>spdef.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Swampert? Seriously? Again though dude-- look up at the Electross point; Swampert is in the same boat. Who are you trying educate? No one halfway good uses pert anyway! This thread is about sets that are overrated and too common-- no one needs a despell about how mediocre Swampert is. Please read the rules and OP.

Hey Chou- Yes, I did read the OP. This is what the OP says:

The goal of this thread is to better our players, plain and simple.

Am I wrong in thinking that my Land-T>Swampert example actually perfectly fits the thread? Defensive Swampert is a shit set, yet it's used a lot for some reason when there's a clearly better Pokemon in Landorus-T.

No, Swampert and Eelektross aren't in the same boat because Swampert gets more than 3 times the usage of Eelektross and is actually rather common.

Swampert is 67th on OU stats in July, and moveset stats say %67.8 of Swamperts use Leftovers, %49.8 use Stealth Rock, and %33 use Roar. Bulky spreads are pretty common as well.

Azumarill, Victreebell and Scolipede are all less used than Swampert, yet they are in the OP.

Yes, no one good uses Swampert, but no one good uses SpDef Metagross either. (who is also less used than defensive Swampert) Isn't that the purpose of this thread?

 

[ogasian]

For the Forretress set, I think Volt Switch should he slashed with Spikes or SR. It allows Forry to gain momentum and escape from Magnezone (with Prediction, because there is no point saving 1 hp Forry).

 

[Halcyon.]

You're absolutely right, it should be slashed. I'll change that right now. And Trainer Au is right, it was simply a typo. Thanks for pointing that out Scarf Wynaut!

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room, here.

Don't use:

Donphan @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Shard

Why it's bad: Donphan just doesn't have the staying power that most people expect, and it's offenses are sub-par. Sure, it has decent Defense, but that means nothing when every special attacker in the tier (even Air Balloon Heatran!) can come in whenever it wants and force you out / 2HKO you right off the bat. Because of it's sub-par offenses, Levitators such as Gengar, Latias, and Latios can switch in easily (Ice Shard won't do enough damage to them,) but that's not the end of it. Things like Breloom, Celebi, Jellicent, and Politoed, can counter it--and the list goes on!

Use this:

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SAtk / 224 Spd
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Psyshock
- Recover

Why it's better: Bulky Rapid Spin Starmie boasts greater staying power and better offensive presence over Donphan. Though it is vunerable to Spikes and SR, Natural Cure makes it so that it can come into Toxic Spikes with ease. It can threaten Dragons with Ice Beam, with more power than a mediocre Ice Shard. Gengar is no issue, as you can opt for Psyshock to make quick work of it (Scald works too). It has reliable recovery, so it can come in throughout the match to spin hazards away. Starmie has a wide array of coverage options, as well, so you can mix and match Surf, BoltBeam and Psychic to fit your team's needs.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, a milion times no.

Donphan in NO WAY is outclassed by starmie. Donphan is supposed to be used on sun teams, and also has access to Odor Sleuth + Rapid Spin to spin past ghosts (and I think it should go over stealth rock if you have another sr user / magic bouncer). Starmie suffers severely from 4mss and doesn't work on sun teams at all. That priority move is also a big plus for donphan.

 

[Alfalfa]

I concur. Starmie CAN work on Sun Teams; sure, it does not like a weakened Water STAB, but it is still a very effective Rapid Spinner on sun. And Donphan's Ice Shard is pathetically weak; it only really hits Pokemon 4x weak to it hard.

Also, you say that Starmie has 4MSS; so does Donphan; it wants to run Earthquake, Rock Coverage with Stone Edge/Head Smash, Ice Shard, Rapid Spin, Odor Sleuth, and Stealth Rock, but it only has four moveslots. And Donphan rarely ever uses Odor Sleuth to begin with.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

If you want a fast Stealth Rock counter for sun teams, Espeon is what you're looking for, not Starmie.

 

[Halcyon.]

Defensive Starmie with Psyshock / Ice Beam / Recover / Rapid Spin can work simply because it's the only spinner with a recovery move. Also, Espeon sucks because it's way too reliant on prediction, and all it takes is one mispredict to die to Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball.

 

[Alfalfa]

Espeon requires prediction. A lot of prediction. With Starmie, you can just use Rapid Spin to spin away the Stealth Rock.

 

[Spinda]

Not at what 180 HP ttar does, which is be a CB wall breaker...

While I somewhat agree with you (I'm not a big fan of using CB tar), it is a pretty standard set, so showing it as an example of Moltres' power is totally legitimate. For the record, Stone Edge tends to be pretty inefficient (and rare) on the Sassy Tank (you'll see Crunch / Superpower / SR / Fire Blast / Pursuit more frequently-- all of which Moltres can tank), so HP Fighting still gives Moltres a good shot to come out on top.

BTW-- If you don't like CB tar, or 180 HP ttar in general-- that would be a perfect example of something to try posting about in this thread.


^The POINT of this THREAD is to look at sets that are onsite (or at least common) and bad (or at least potentially bad/inefficient).

Every set is bad ( or atleast potentially bad/inefficient ), depending on the team it's on.
But most of them do have value in the right team, this thread is not encouraging people to look at pros and cons, it's just encouraging new players not to use set because "respected players" say it's a bad idea. This limits the metagames growth by passing on our biased mindsets to new players, while they really should just see what works for them... And I still think Jolteon is a better option than Thundurus-T on atleast 50% of teams that need an offensive electric type.

I know this isn't about completely outclassing, but I legitimately think half of the proposed examples aren't even better pokemon than the ones they're replacing in general.

 

[Alfalfa]

Jolteon is sometimes a more appropriate fit than Thundurus-T if you want to keep the Stealth Rock weakness down, though Thundurus-T is generally more versatile offensively due to access to Nasty Plot, as well as a higher base Special Attack.

 

[Spinda]

Jolteon is sometimes a more appropriate fit than Thundurus-T if you want to keep the Stealth Rock weakness down, though Thundurus-T is generally more versatile offensively due to access to Nasty Plot, as well as a higher base Special Attack.

No weakness to rock, no weakness to boltbeam, and superior speed ( 101 Speed isn't even good in this metagame anymore ), makes jolteon a better fit on 95% of teams that don't need it to wallbreak from my experience