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You didn't understand what I was saying. I was saying, if a Pokemon has 20 checks and no counters, it's less of a problem than if it has 2 hard counters and no other real checks. I didn't say they were equal at any time, I didn't say it's better to have A check rather than A counter. It is...

Oh I agree, that's the thing, when half the checks are only checks for one set, that definitely raises concerns.

I would argue having several (Assume this is greater than 10) checks is much better (for the game, not Luke) than having one or two counters and no other real checks.

Pretty sure it's "close minded", the opposite being "open minded" would lead me to believe that anyways.

I meant a Bold one for the Rest/Talk set. I wasn't suggesting you should, I asked if it was at all viable due to him attacking second typically anyways. I completely understand Bold is optimal.

Oh that's right. I have the event Relaxed one -_-, can't seem to find a Bold one anywhere. Guess I'll have to keep looking. Is Relaxed even the worst thing in the world since he's not outspeeding anything anyways the majority of the time? It give's +Def which is kinda meh, not a lot of Leaf...

Is modest viable at all? I am fascinated with Calm Mind, Air Slash/Shadow Ball/Extrasensory, Ice Beam, Scald/Hydro Pump, is it just strictly worse than something else or could I use the CroCune set with modest? How badly does it mess up his 3hko thresholds (I assume at least a moderate amount)?

I realize it's part of the deal in this thread, but I feel like all the talk for moving things up a fraction of a category is just silly. It's just not worth arguing for 4 pages if something is a b- or a b, it isn't.

why would you use Acrobatics over Aerial Ace anyways? regardless if the set is good or not, Ace is just a strict upgrade no? I don't think the off-chance you get Knock Off'd (likely wouldn't use it against greninja anyways) is remotely worth it.

It was just something I'd thought of, I haven't actually used it. I've only used the Choice Band and I tried the Expert Belt, but too often it just wasn't doing enough. I acknowledged there was likely a reason I'd never heard it discussed, it just sounded good covering it's hazard and ground...

Has anybody looked at Victini? I've been having a lot of success with him using a pretty standard set for him. Choice Band is the item, but I've honestly been thinking about Air Balloon, his attack is high enough and his attacks are all strong enough that you don't NEED a band/orb/belt/plate...

On hydro pump vs surf, forget the calcs. Say Hydro Pump OHKO's compared to needing 2 Surfs, or 2HKO's compared to 3 Surfs, even if it misses once, it's still doing more damage. If Surf doesn't knock out the pokemon and hydro pump misses, is there a difference if your pokemon gets knocked out...

I'm not sure if the calc's were using 2 U-Turns or just that U-Turn with 88 Atk EV's will soften the Pokemon up enough to where even a neutral attack (assuming it's not a purely defensive pokemon you're switching into) would suffice to secure the kill.

Literally the worst post I've ever seen. You take the most basic set, from page 2, throw some cliche's and act like you have some breakthrough. You completely ignore pages of discussion and data showing why it's viable to put 88 EV's into attack (it enables several 1 and 2HKO's with U-Turn...

Hydreigon, Volcarona, and Rotom-W are good options for you.

oh woops, I was looking at my 252 Sp. A numbers for that, my bad too.

right, because it kills the other one through Multiscale.

With 168 Sp. A, Ice Beam is guaranteed to OHKO Dragonite and guaranteed to OHKO Tanky Dragonite after Stealth Rock 168 Sp. A Life Orb, Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 Sp. D Dragonite: 608-717 (158 - 186%)

Brick Break is next best fighting move, Aerial Ace is another solid choice, albeit doesn't offer great coverage since U-Turn already takes care of Grass types, it does answer Fighting types that are everywhere tho.

Rotom-W is the best Volt Switch partner with Scizor imo, they cover each others weaknesses almost perfectly. Starmie, Jirachi, Heatran, Terrakion, Latios, Celebi, Tyranitar, Thundurus-T are all fantastic teammates for both. I run offensive VoltTurn myself, my team is Scizor, Rotom-W, Jirachi...