Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[TooMuchSugar]

Neither Braviary nor Heliolisk is up for discussion, as neither is getting an OU analysis. Please check the rules on nominations before posting about relatively low-level mons to avoid wasting time on things we're not going to rank anyway.

I can see Starmie moving up to B or B+, just for being the best general offensive spinner after Excadrill. Excadrill will obviously not fit on every team, as it has its downsides, and in the case that you can't find room for it Starmie is easily the best alternative. It also fulfills a few other important niches mostly by having great coverage and being really fast, while it is significantly less powerful. Probably B or B+.

EDIT: Also, Blastoise is the most RELIABLE spinner, but not necessarily the best as he is very vulnerable to being worn down and thus will probably only be able to spin once or twice before fainting.

 

[Magicfire]

I can see Starmie moving up to B or B+, just for being the best general offensive spinner after Excadrill. Excadrill will obviously not fit on every team, as it has its downsides, and in the case that you can't find room for it Starmie is easily the best alternative. It also fulfills a few other important niches mostly by having great coverage and being really fast, while it is significantly less powerful. Probably B or B+

I think Starmie could be a B, but not a B+ or an A. It does have great coverage, but Genesect being everywhere doesn't help it, and its main niche now is as a spinner. Greninja is better than Starmie in almost every way, and Starmie faces major competition from Excadrill and Blastoise.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I think Starmie could be a , but not a B+ or an A. It does have great coverage, but Genesect being everywhere doesn't help it, and its main niche now is as a spinner. Greninja is better than Starmie in almost every way, and Starmie faces major competition from Excadrill and Blastoise.

I can support B, B- just seems a little bit too low, as he is still very useful. Greninja is a better attacker, but Rapid Spin is a huge advantage that would easily convince me to use Starmie instead. Excadrill is major competition as a spinner, but Starmie has several advantages:
-Starmie is blazing fast while Excadrill has subpar 88 speed.
-Water is a much more spammable STAB than ground
-BoltBeam is amazing (although EdgeQuake is also amazing, so I don't know who wins here).
-Starmie has Recover and can run a decent bulky set also taking advantage of Scald

Excadrill is certainly better because of its great power, but it doesn't outclass Starmie in all situations.

Blastoise seems to me to be a different kind of spinner, more reliant on tanking hits and then hitting back extremely hard. Blastoise is a good spinner if you really don't want to be spinblocked, but that's more or less it.

 

[Meru]

Bulky Starmie has zero business in this meta. I think B- is perfect for it at the moment. Remember people... we're not in Gen 5 anymore. What worked then might not work now.

If anything, the original argument should've been that Tentacruel should be dropped lower. Without Rain Dish, I really don't see this thing having a niche.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Bulky Starmie has zero business in this meta. I think B- is perfect for it at the moment. Remember people... we're not in Gen 5 anymore. What worked then might not work now.

If anything, the original argument should've been that Tentacruel should be dropped lower. Without Rain Dish, I really don't see this thing having a niche.

Fair enough, I've never really used bulky Starmie, I just remember someone mentioning it in an earlier Starmie discussion. My other points still stand though, and I think they should be enough to put it in B at least.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Starmie will always have the niche of being a spinner that can actually outspeeds a huge part of the metagame. While it fares poorly against aegislash, you need to remember that spinblocking isnt the only way to stop a spin. Excadrill and blastoise will always have the problem of being outsped and koed by a lot of threats before they can do their job, but starmie's 115 speed makes this almost a non issue, thats why starmie is actually far more reliable against any team that lacks aegislash since it has much less offensive checks. On a different note i feel the lower ranks are in needing of an update. Staraptor is part of one of the best offensive cores right now, theres absolutely no way its staying so low at B-. Goodra is just too high, putting it on the same rank as chansey and clefable is absurb, at the very least regular B, but i'd prefer B- for it. Skarmory needs to get the hell out of there, its a solid A. The amount of support it provides with Defog+hazards+phazing is incredible. Zapdos is very anti meta, checking the common fly spam teams (staraptor, talonflame, pinsir) and being one of the few solid landorus switch ins, B+ is more suited for it. Malamar is absolutely terrible and completely irrelevant in ou. Doesnt deserve to be listed, specially not alongside honchrow.

 

[RufflesPro]

This is not agreed upon at all.

Nominal support. Sure. Who cares about number of resistances when you're weak to SR. It goes from being an okay Greninja check to murdered by it, and can't take a Stone Edge for its life (common coverage). Those are nice resistances, and Rotom-H has merit in handling Genesect nicely, but it's even less complicated to wear down than Rotom-W, and falters against many other OU threats. For these reasons, I can't see Rotom-H above B-.

Okay this list:

Like idk why you're putting Hydreigon in B, it really isn't that good, or Celebi in B, when it's barely good at all in the current metagame and overshadowed by Mega Venusaur. Is Volcarona even A? I'm inclined to think B+, or A- if that exists in the future.

There's also stuff everyone's ignored. For example, alexwolf proposed Politoed for A, Slowbro for B+ (I think B tbh, but that's arguable), Dugtrio for C+/B- (probably the former), Crawdaunt for C+/B- (the latter imo), and Tornadus-T for B+ -- all excellent points.

Dice proposed Diggersby for B (where it belongs imo). I proposed Mega Absol for B-, Entei for B-, Sylveon for B+, Jellicent for B-, Krookodile for B-, Vaporeon for B, and Kyurem for B (could be like B- I think).

Of this list, I think Kyurem-B, Moltres, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, Lucario, Skarmory, Galvantula, and Zapdos are conclusive. The others are too up in the air (like Megadactyl in B+, that's ridiculous).

Rotom-H was brought up so many times, and every time it was agree upon to be B, but I put B+ as mistake, that's my bad.

Hydreigon, Celebi, and Volcarona all have been discussed and agreed upon. If you have arguments, that's not for me.

Slowbro I forgot, B+ was the rank, Politoad I also forgot, Dugtrio and Tornadus-T haven't met an agreements. Crawdaunt is a pokemon I agreed upon to be B-, but alexwolf and many others agreed upon C+.

B is what he proposed, B- is what people have agree on. The things you proposed: haven't been argues and agreed upon enough, even though I agree about Mega Absol, Sylveon, Jellicent, Krookodile, and Vaporeon, Kyurem would fit fine in B-, or even B, but 2 people agreeing is something I don't think is enough. Mega Aerodactyl at B+ is kinda crazy I admit, but his sweeping set is really good and would fit in B IMO.

Alright the list again:

Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> B-
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A
Diggersby: C+ -----> B-
Rotom-H: Unranked -----> B
Galvuntula: B- -----> C
Hydreigon: Unranked -----> B
Zapdos: B -----> B+
Slowbro: B -----> B+
Politoed: Unranked -----> A

Proposed pokemon that haven't gotten many agreements/arguments:

Mega Absol for B-, Entei for B-, Dugtrio for C+, Sylveon for B+, Jellicent for B-, Tornadus-T for B+, Krookodile for B-, Vaporeon for B, and Kyurem for B.

I agree on the above pokemon as they are in the rank they most fit in.

Remember I'm just LISTING what we have AGREED UPON and not PROPOSING ANYTHING.

EDIT: Have we agreed on Starmie for B-?

 

[alexwolf]

Offensive Starmie should never be played as a dedicated spinner. It should be played as a fast hard hitter, similarly to Greninja, that can also spin if the situation arises. This means that you should never heavily rely on Starmie to get rid of hazards. For example, you can use it on an offenisve team without SR weak Pokemon, where getting rid of SR is not a must but it's nice to have a measure against it, or you can use Starmie on a team with Talonflame and Excadrill as extra anti-SR insurance. Also, while Aegislash prevents Starmie from spinning, it is in no way a counter:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 177-211 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, Aegislash can switch into Starmie only once.

Either B or B- are good for Starmie, not really sure. Rapid Spin, Analytic, and Psyshock are what Starmie has over Greninja, which are enough to still make it a good choice on many teams, however its very hard to bring in safely and Starmie is no longer the Speed demon it used to be, being outsped by common offensive Pokemon such as Greninja, Deo-S, and Tornadus-T.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Rotom-H was brought up so many times, and every time it was agree upon to be B, but I put B+ as mistake, that's my bad.

Hydreigon, Celebi, and Volcarona all have been discussed and agreed upon. If you have arguments, that's not for me.

Slowbro I forgot, B+ was the rank, Politoad I also forgot, Dugtrio and Tornadus-T haven't met an agreements. Crawdaunt is a pokemon I agreed upon to be B-, but alexwolf and many others agreed upon C+.

B is what he proposed, B- is what people have agree on. The things you proposed: haven't been argues and agreed upon enough, even though I agree about Mega Absol, Sylveon, Jellicent, Krookodile, and Vaporeon, Kyurem would fit fine in B-, or even B, but 2 people agreeing is something I don't think is enough. Mega Aerodactyl at B+ is kinda crazy I admit, but his sweeping set is really good and would fit in B IMO.

Alright the list again:

Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> B-
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A
Diggersby: C+ -----> B-
Rotom-H: Unranked -----> B
Galvuntula: B- -----> C
Hydreigon: Unranked -----> B
Zapdos: B -----> B+
Slowbro: Unranked -----> B+
Politoed: Unranked -----> A

Proposed pokemon that haven't gotten many agreements/arguments:

Mega Absol for B-, Entei for B-, Dugtrio for C+, Sylveon for B+, Jellicent for B-, Tornadus-T for B+, Krookodile for B-, Vaporeon for B, and Kyurem for B.

I agree on the above pokemon as they are in the rank they most fit in.

Remember I'm just LISTING what we have AGREED UPON and not PROPOSING ANYTHING.

I'm pretty sure the consensus for Volcarona was A-, so you might want to list that in case it ever exists. The rest of the list and the other proposed stuff looks fine to me.

I would like to nominate Kingdra for B+. Kingdra is probably the best reason to use rain right now as an amazing swift swimmer, and I think this should put it at most half a tier below Politoed. Specs Swift Swim Kingdra is basically really fast + really strong = really great.
I'm not even taking the focus energy CritDra set into account because I don't have any experience with it and it looks kind of gimmicky in theory.

 

[Srn]

Rotom-H was brought up so many times, and every time it was agree upon to be B, but I put B+ as mistake, that's my bad.

Hydreigon, Celebi, and Volcarona all have been discussed and agreed upon. If you have arguments, that's not for me.

Slowbro I forgot, B+ was the rank, Politoad I also forgot, Dugtrio and Tornadus-T haven't met an agreements. Crawdaunt is a pokemon I agreed upon to be B-, but alexwolf and many others agreed upon C+.

B is what he proposed, B- is what people have agree on. The things you proposed: haven't been argues and agreed upon enough, even though I agree about Mega Absol, Sylveon, Jellicent, Krookodile, and Vaporeon, Kyurem would fit fine in B-, or even B, but 2 people agreeing is something I don't think is enough. Mega Aerodactyl at B+ is kinda crazy I admit, but his sweeping set is really good and would fit in B IMO.

Alright the list again:

Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> B-
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A
Diggersby: C+ -----> B-
Rotom-H: Unranked -----> B
Galvuntula: B- -----> C
Hydreigon: Unranked -----> B
Zapdos: B -----> B+
Slowbro: B -----> B+
Politoed: Unranked -----> A

Proposed pokemon that haven't gotten many agreements/arguments:

Mega Absol for B-, Entei for B-, Dugtrio for C+, Sylveon for B+, Jellicent for B-, Tornadus-T for B+, Krookodile for B-, Vaporeon for B, and Kyurem for B.

I agree on the above pokemon as they are in the rank they most fit in.

Remember I'm just LISTING what we have AGREED UPON and not PROPOSING ANYTHING.

EDIT: Have we agreed on Starmie for B-?

It honestly feels like my post a couple pages ago on zygarde for B+ was completely ignored ;_;
Other than that I agree with everything here yeah.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

I'm not even taking the focus energy CritDra set into account because I don't have any experience with it and it looks kind of gimmicky in theory.

Yeah I haven't seen any skilled player actually use CritDra. I could be wrong, but to me, any time you need to baton pass boosts, it's gimmicky.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

I'm not even taking the focus energy CritDra set into account because I don't have any experience with it and it looks kind of gimmicky in theory.

It has a set in the analysis.

 

[Ryolain]

Yeah I haven't seen any skilled player actually use CritDra. I could be wrong, but to me, any time you need to baton pass boosts, it's gimmicky.

It doesn't need a baton passed boost though, it learns Focus Energy. What is it supposed to be getting Baton Passed?

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

It doesn't need a baton passed boost though, it learns Focus Energy. What is it supposed to be getting Baton Passed?

Well I'm assuming that you're scarfed so that you can actually outspeed something. So you would have to baton pass it in. Otherwise you'll get wiped out by any other dragon or fairy type in the tier.

 

[Ryolain]

Well I'm assuming that you're scarfed so that you can actually outspeed something. So you would have to baton pass it in. Otherwise you'll get wiped out by any other dragon or fairy type in the tier.

Read the writeup before discussing, you have to equip Scope Lens otherwise the whole thing doesn't even make sense...

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kingdra-qc-0-3.3498212/

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Read the writeup before discussing, you have to equip Scope Lens otherwise the whole thing doesn't even make sense...

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kingdra-qc-0-3.3498212/

Oh right, scope lens. Totally forgot about that.
>Scolipede is a prime partner, as Kingdra's main flaw is its slightly sub-par Speed. Scolipede can Baton Pass Speed Boost's as well as Focus Energy to clear up a moveslot for Kingdra, it can even set up Spikes to help with Kingdra's sweep as well as Baton Passing Iron Defense boosts
So you still have to baton pass something to it in order for it to really work. I mean, I guess you could use Agility, but it still seems kind of gimmicky to me.

 

[Chev]

Open with Scolipede/Blaziken > Baton Pass a speed boost > FE > Sweep a team

I'm not seeing too much of an issue here. That is a fairly standard strategy for Baton Passing any sort of boosts. Not as much gimmicky as you see people doing this with literally dozens of prospective pokemon.

 

[Mood4food77]

After a +2 excadrill can ohko Trevenant with iron head.

not physically bulky trevenant

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Trevenant: 256-303 (68.4 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

excadrill gets wisped and sitrus berry gets activated

 

[Srn]

While we're on the topic of critdra
You could provide rain support to activate swift swim and then have your standard critdra set from there, a "swift critter"
You don't really need to baton pass speed boosts, but keep in mind sometimes keeping the rain up is tougher than passing speed boosts, and you get to run sniper if you do get to baton pass speed boosts. However, any slightly skilled player should honestly have SOME way to deal with this simple strategy.

 

[Omgwyatt]

I realize it's part of the deal in this thread, but I feel like all the talk for moving things up a fraction of a category is just silly. It's just not worth arguing for 4 pages if something is a b- or a b, it isn't.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Open with Scolipede/Blaziken > Baton Pass a speed boost > FE > Sweep a team

I'm not seeing too much of an issue here. That is a fairly standard strategy for Baton Passing any sort of boosts. Not as much gimmicky as you see people doing this with literally dozens of prospective pokemon.

Maybe. I guess I've always been a bit apprehensive at using Baton Pass in anything. I've always seen it as a bit noobish. I might give it a shot though.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Open with Scolipede/Blaziken > Baton Pass a speed boost > FE > Sweep a team

I'm not seeing too much of an issue here. That is a fairly standard strategy for Baton Passing any sort of boosts. Not as much gimmicky as you see people doing this with literally dozens of prospective pokemon.

That's the thing though, you can baton pass boost to just about anything, so it's not much of a point in favor of any particular mon.
I'm not trying to discount critdra here, I just think that swift swim is much better and Kingdra should primarily be ranked based on that.

 

[PrincessDerpy]

Read his comment. It's not that Venusaur counters Genesect or vice versa, but because Genesect can OHKO nearly every Psychic-type in the tier with a (potentially boosted) STAB U-Turn, making Psychic typing a major liability. If Genesect leaves, Psychic-type usage will probably rise and Venusaur will have to face a lot more threats.

I don't buy it. Gene might be the king of U Turn mountain, but that's hardly the only thing making life hard for psychic types nowadays.

 

[Scorpio]

So, where does Metagross fit on the list? I feel that while the Ghost and Dark buff are troublesome, the introduction of Assault Vest makes it useful.

So, anyone got any suggestions?

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

I'm not even taking the focus energy CritDra set into account because I don't have any experience with it and it looks kind of gimmicky in theory.

It is basically a free Nasty Plot which can spam Draco Meteor without drawbacks. The speed issue can be solved wither with Baton Pass or going DoubleDance with Focus Energy and Agility.