Grass Knot/Dark Pulse/Hidden Power Fire/Extrasensory. Taunt could also work.
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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Thanks grass knot actually sounds really good based on my linup for coverage.
At least from my point of view i dont intend to use him as a physical sweeper or defensive mon, the main purpose of that set is to find several oportunitites to set up more tan one layer of spikes and do a bit more damage to other mons and then die after doing its job. Anyways im well aware that he is best used by the special side of the spectrum. Edit: He doesn't have to be bulky at all, you will be able to get more setup chances due to playing mind games with typing switches.
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Greninja is not bulky enough naturally to try and stick around and get up Spikes. If you want that, try Deoxys-D, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, or Forretress. If Greninja is getting up Spikes he's doing it as a suicide lead. Switching to Flying-type when something tries to hit your Normal-type Substitute will not stop them from breaking it.
I'm not sure if the calc's were using 2 U-Turns or just that U-Turn with 88 Atk EV's will soften the Pokemon up enough to where even a neutral attack (assuming it's not a purely defensive pokemon you're switching into) would suffice to secure the kill.
Well, the damage difference between Surf and Hydro Pump is pretty big. I found Surf a bit underwhelming, especially at crucial moments, and after I switched to Hydro Pump I feel Greninja was a more effective sweeper and won me more battles. But I guess it depends on personal playstyle, too.
On hydro pump vs surf, forget the calcs. Say Hydro Pump OHKO's compared to needing 2 Surfs, or 2HKO's compared to 3 Surfs, even if it misses once, it's still doing more damage. If Surf doesn't knock out the pokemon and hydro pump misses, is there a difference if your pokemon gets knocked out? You lose a bit of chip damage I guess, but that doesn't outweigh the extra power IMO.
In which case, the entire thing becomes rather pointless. Because you'd need nigh infinite calculations comparing the damage U-Turn does, compared to the damage of the next attacker that you send in against each and every Pokémon. Feel free to list those if you want. In my experience, I've never U-Turned out against something and found that having U-Turn do more damage would have secured a KO with the next Pokémon.
Point out to me what Hydro Pump at 168 SpAtk Evs OHKOs that Surf does not OHKO at 252 SpAtk Evs. That's where the reliability becomes important. Most Pokémon who are OHKO'd by a 168 Hydro Pump are also OHKO'd by a 252 Surf. So why would I run Hydro Pump and risk missing, since Surf nets the OHKO anyway?
Just to run more Attack EVs and boost a move that I'm using for sustaining momentum, and where the extra damage is rarely as important, since my follow up Pokémon can finish off the target either way, since I'm always switching out for a Pokémon that is far more effective against the target than Greninja (which is why I switched Greninja out).
zaephirian
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
I need help getting an Hp Fire Froakie or evo :S
I've been enjoying this set. It takes a lot of prediction, but it's a lot of fun.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature
4 HP / 252 ATK / 252 SPE
- Shadow Sneak
- Quick Attack
- Water Shuriken
- U-turn
Basically, the idea here is to play with your opponent's priority, by using faster priority moves that give you key resistances/immunities.
I have also had some success replacing U-Turn/Grass Knot with Shadow Sneak on some of the special sets.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Timid/Naive Nature
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SPE
- Shadow Sneak
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Scald / Hydro Pump
When you KO something with Dark Pulse/Ice Beam, Greninja is very easy to revenge with Mach Punch. Shadow Sneak allows Greninja to kill Breloom and Diggersby, effectively giving him 2 turns of anti-priority immunity.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature
4 HP / 252 ATK / 252 SPE
- Shadow Sneak
- Quick Attack
- Water Shuriken
- U-turn
Basically, the idea here is to play with your opponent's priority, by using faster priority moves that give you key resistances/immunities.
I have also had some success replacing U-Turn/Grass Knot with Shadow Sneak on some of the special sets.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Timid/Naive Nature
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SPE
- Shadow Sneak
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Scald / Hydro Pump
When you KO something with Dark Pulse/Ice Beam, Greninja is very easy to revenge with Mach Punch. Shadow Sneak allows Greninja to kill Breloom and Diggersby, effectively giving him 2 turns of anti-priority immunity.
What sort of KOs are you getting with either set? Also, Diggersby only has Quick Attack for priority and he is immune to Shadow Sneak, while you OHKO with Ice Beam and Hydro Pump. Why are you wasting time with that?
What I mean is, Diggersby can OHKO you with Quick Attack after only a few LO ticks. The full-physical set is mostly a gimmick set that can be used to maintain momentum vs. priority users on a Volturn team. Water Shuriken gives you Steel and Water resists (BP and AJ), Shadow Sneak gives you Normal and Fighting immunities (QA and MP) and Quick Attack gives you a handy Ghost immunity (for Gengar and some others who carry Shadow Ball for coverage and outspeed).
As for using Shadow Sneak on the Special Set, I know Diggersby is immune to it, but because of the threat of Ice Beam OHKO, he will try to Quick Attack you for the OHKO. Shadow Sneak makes you a ghost before his QA goes off, and then he cannot use QA again on the next turn, because you'll still be a Ghost, which is when you score your Ice Beam OHKO. The same applies for Mach Punch on Breloom (doubly so because as a Dark or Ice type, Mach Punch is SE on top of it).
No, no, no, no, no. Greninja is too frail to try to abuse resistances. 72/62/71 is not tanking anything, ever. Abusing Protean for immunities is ALSO a waste of time when you could simply be smashing them with STAB anything. Not only that, if for some reason the Diggersby user isn't brain dead and also gets the ludicrous idea that someone would actually try running Shadow Sneak to abuse immunity, they can simply use Earthquake which outdamages Quick Attack even when resisted.
Greninja cannot tank attacks. It is too frail and it is a waste of a team member to try to do so. The fact that you are taking nearly 75% from a neutral priority attack (even a Huge Power Pokemon) should have made that abundantly clear to you. This has been discussed a dozen times in the last 30 pages, do some reading before you waste our time.
I fully admit that the full-priority set was a gimmick with limited use. Yes, his defensive stats are garbage; but there's getting off two priority hits before you drop, or there's dying to a priority hit while you try to U-Turn/letting another pokemon on your team take the hit. Sometimes the latter is not always favourable. Again, yes, STAB non-priority will do more damage, I completely agree - but when you die to an opponent's priority before you get to move, your damage output is 0.
I still think that Shadow Sneak has virtues compared vs. U-Turn; most Diggersby/Breloom won't risk the SE OHKO Ice Beam and go for a slower move. They will go for Mach Punch/Quick Attack for the revenge kill; if you have Shadow Sneak, you prevent them from revenging you and you get to kill them in turn. I am not saying Greninja should always run it, or even usually run it; I am simply saying that, if, on a given team, Greninja's Ice Beam is your counter to threats like Breloom and Diggersby, it is worthy of consideration over U-Turn/Grass Knot/HP Fire/Extrasensory.
I still think that Shadow Sneak has virtues compared vs. U-Turn; most Diggersby/Breloom won't risk the SE OHKO Ice Beam and go for a slower move. They will go for Mach Punch/Quick Attack for the revenge kill; if you have Shadow Sneak, you prevent them from revenging you and you get to kill them in turn. I am not saying Greninja should always run it, or even usually run it; I am simply saying that, if, on a given team, Greninja's Ice Beam is your counter to threats like Breloom and Diggersby, it is worthy of consideration over U-Turn/Grass Knot/HP Fire/Extrasensory.
If you're worried about getting KO'd by priority, switch out. You know what takes zero damage from Breloom's Mach Punch 100% of the time? Gengar, as well as every other Ghost, and a whole host of Fairy-types that take extremely little damage from it. Losing valuable coverage, and no Pokemon has ever had as powerful coverage as Greninja does, is not worth, in any scenario (not just "most of the time," 100% of the time), a shitty gimmick of a move when you have five teammates to rely on.
Ok I have a perfect 6 IVs Greninja with a timid nature. And i learned that you can't have HP fire on greninja because i have breed over 10 froakies' with perfect ivs in hp, defensive, SpAtk, SpDef, and speed. And all of there hidden powers is either dark or dragon. So i you would I'd like to read your opinions.
If you're running Greninja in game and don't want to bother with HP, I'd run this:
U-Turn
Surf / Hydro Pump (whatever you fancy)
Ice Beam
Dark Pulse
It's pretty solid, I've used it on Showdown and ingame for a long time. I've also used HP Fire on Showdown a lot, and both it and Ice Beam are really nice. It really depends on what the rest of your team looks like--Greninja is the jack of all trades, and master of all trades. Good luck!
So much bashing on Greninja physical set but I agree wholeheartedly that it is too frail. For those who want to play around with protean+priority may want to try Kecleon. May not be the best pokemon but it got two priority: Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch and it got decent amount of Sp.D(around 120) which will make it a good Special tank.
This isn't the thread for breeding advice, but obviously there are now only 18 Hidden Powers and far, far more than 18 stat combinations. The best HP Fire Greninja has the spread Agonist indicated. You can make an inferior Greninja that also uses HP Fire.
As for using HP fire... is it as useful as, say, Grass Knot/U-Turn? A 2x SE HP Fire barely hits harder than Hydro Pump (yes, it is straight-up better in power and accuracy, but not by all that much), but a lot of things are 4x Weak to it... wondering if it's worth the pain and effort to make an HP Fire one on cart at some point or not.
As for using HP fire... is it as useful as, say, Grass Knot/U-Turn? A 2x SE HP Fire barely hits harder than Hydro Pump (yes, it is straight-up better in power and accuracy, but not by all that much), but a lot of things are 4x Weak to it... wondering if it's worth the pain and effort to make an HP Fire one on cart at some point or not.
Just wanted to say that this isn't true:
- 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dry Skin Toxicroak: 192-227 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Dry Skin Toxicroak: 192-227 (52.1 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
Yeah, HP Fire isn't for Toxicroak. Don't forget that Greninja has access to Extrasensory which eradicates Toxicroak and scores a 2HKO on Tentacruel and Mega Venusaur as well.
HP Fire is still useful for Ferrothorn and Scizor, as well as Genesect post-bank (although it seems that 99% of them run Scarf so...)
I'm still finding a shocking number of Greninja running Scarf, or moves like Power-Up Punch and Shadow Sneak. No wonder people say that Greninja is overrated!
HP Fire is still useful for Ferrothorn and Scizor, as well as Genesect post-bank (although it seems that 99% of them run Scarf so...)
I'm still finding a shocking number of Greninja running Scarf, or moves like Power-Up Punch and Shadow Sneak. No wonder people say that Greninja is overrated!
Do you have a source? No one's been able to find HP Fairy but there's a lot of confusion because people keep saying it exists.
Oh. I sort of assumed that since people were discussing it all over the fora like it was a thing, and I hadn't come across a post saying otherwise until just now, that it was a thing. My mistake; I do not have a source.
Greninja really doesn't have the attack stats or a wide enough physical movepool to really take full advantage of that type of set.
So I keep hearing on U-Turn sets to run Naive, but why that nature over Hasty? Greninja's Def is lower than it's SpD, so the drop shouldn't make it that much different, it'll die to most things anyway. Someone care to explain?
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