Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I believe Ceruledge getting Dragon Claw is rooted in the fact that it is distinctly driven by dark energy and emotions of malice.

Dragon as a type embodies use of the energy of nature but uses such energy in a parasitic relationship with nature and often driven by rage and negative emotion. In essence, it is the use of Dragon as a type driven by negative energy, which is in contrast to its antithesis, Fairy, which is in turn a type also driven by nature but uses such energy in a more symbiotic relationship with nature and is driven by more positive energy, relying on more positive emotion in doing so.

Dragon Claw is basically the most generic "Dragon attack", but as a Dragon move the characteristics of the Dragon type I outlined are highlighted by the other Dragon attacks. Dragon Rush is labeled as an attack that is a full blown body slam driven by overwhelming menace. Outrage is a move where the Pokemon goes on a violent rampage uncontrollably for 2-3 turns before calming down and then becoming dizzy afterward. Dragon Breath and Dragon Rage are breath-based attacks that have abnormal traits (former induces paralysis while the latter is a weak fixed damage attack). Dragon Pulse is a shock wave from the user's gaping mouth. Note: shock wave. Draco Meteor is a violent meteor shower from the skies that relies on the user's special energy and expends much of it in doing so. You get the point.

Chesnaught is a starter and is in the "cool, tough looking" category so I suppose they thought it would work there.

That said, however, Barbaracle distinctly works because its Japanese name has the word "death" in it while its English name partially derives from the word "barbarian", which suggest a nasty and menacing beast. Pangoro is driven by anger a lot of the time and is very rough-mannered and short-tempered. Bewear is also incredibly dangerous. You get the drill.

In a sense Dragon Claw is looked at by the characteristic of the Dragon type being the "uses the power of nature driven by malice and destruction" type in terms of what makes Dragon-type moves, well, Dragon-type.

Contrast that with Fairy-type's corresponding generic "Fairy attack", which is arguably Dazzling Gleam: many Fairy-types and Psychic-types learn it, but many Pokemon such as Roserade, Arboliva, Manaphy, and Audino learn it, because they are more in tune with nature and some of them like Audino and Arboliva are more benevolent, and in general is using special light energy in a way that is symbiotic with nature, acting in tandem with it.

It is much like how other Fairy-type moves can in many ways be antithetical to Dragon-type. Play Rough is a physical attack in which the user roughouses the opponent: the opponent doesn't find it fun, but the user does, acting on playfulness and mischief. Moonblast draws power from the moon in a way that it borrows it (whereas Draco Meteor arguably involves the user stealing energy from meteors). Disarming Voice does emotional damage to the opponent, not direct damage really. Fairy Wind is a generic wind attack with no other effects. Nature's Madness directly uses the power of nature synergetically with its user. And so on.

I went on a bit of a tangent there, but hopefully you get the point. I brought in Fairy-type as a direct contrast to further emphasize the specific characteristic of Dragon-type that likely determines who gets to learn Dragon Claw, because I feel it's important to know exactly what the Dragon-type's deal really is about (speaking as a Dragon-type enthusiast myself).

With Dragon Claw specifically I feel some of the standouts are cases where they are driven by some form of menace or other negative energy and unleash it in a special claw slash. Ceruledge in particular is basically the embodiment of malice and hatred and thus uses Dragon Claw by harnessing the energy of nature but channeling it through the malice in its heart I feel.

 

[R_N]

Oh it's because Armarouge gets Dragon Pulse, which it probably gets because it has a giant cannon and should have gotten mega launcher but whatever

they just wanted them to be equivalent in their coverage. Shadow Ball/Shadow Claw, Dragon Pulse/Dragon Claw, Solar Beam/Solar Blade, Flash Cannon/Iron Head and so on.

 

[pika pal]

My theory is that part of it is these mons having Claws that would gash you (Barnacles can SHRED something if you're not careful rubbing against them), which would explain Ceruledge (dirty fighter with blades), Chesnaught (big spiky armor dude), and Barbaracle (see above).

As for the Bears, Pangoro I chalk up to its more Humanoid-Berserker fighting style with its arms and claws (compared to other Bears like Ursaluna or Beartic which seem more like they'd hold opponents down and bite/maul them). Bewear... maybe it goes for a pat on the back or a simple slap in the face and "oops there's that spine snapping power" happens (since unlike the other bears, including the excluded ones I noted, it doesn't have visible claws)

 

[KaenSoul]

Ok, I got another weird case here, what's up with Facade distribution?
It was introduced in Gen 3 as TM 42, and has been a TM ever since, sometimes changing number but always somewhere. In gen 3 the only Pokémon that couldn't use the TM were the usual "can't learn TMs" mons like Magikarp, Ditto, etc.
Come Gen 7, and we have 4 cases of fully evolved non-gimmicky mons that can't learn it, Kartana, Magearna, Shiinotic and Toucannon.
This happens again in Gen 9 with Bellibolt, Toedscruel, Veluza, Flutter Mane, Gholdengo and Iron Valiant.
But why are they different?

 

[Castersvarog]

Revavroom has a pretty well built movepool. It’s blatantly a car so they gave it some good vehicle based moves like Shift gear, Overheat, and its signature move Spin Out alongside stuff like Uproar and poison gas.
But then they didn’t give it U-turn or High horsepower, both of which are stuff cars are know for doing and used to gauge engine power respectively. Would have been great for it to, cause its stuck with only STAB moves and either weak bp moves or overheat

 

[Worldie]

But then why doesn’t it get U-turn or High horsepower, both of which are stuff cars are know for doing and used to gauge engine power respectively? Would have been great for it to.

I'm pretty sure that the reason it doesn't get High Horsepower is that, despite being a play on horse... power, it literally doesnt have legs/hooves to kick your face with.

 

[R_N]

I'm pretty sure that the reason it doesn't get High Horsepower is that, despite being a play on horse... power, it literally doesnt have legs/hooves to kick your face with.

Well...

The user fiercely attacks the target using its entire body.

it doesn't need legs, specifically

This is why things like:
-Crabs (claws)
-Steelix
-Dugtrio
-Pokemon with slim/small lower bodies, but strong upper bodies or hands like Excadrill or Diggersby or Rillaboom
-Or things that jsut hit you in the face, like COnkeldurr

Which is to say a car running you over should get High Horsepower, imo.

 

[Castersvarog]

I'm pretty sure that the reason it doesn't get High Horsepower is that, despite being a play on horse... power, it literally doesnt have legs/hooves to kick your face with.

I’d almost agree with you, but they gave it to Eri’s starmobile so there’s already a precedence of a Revavroom that can use the move.

 

[reaverz]

Well...


it doesn't need legs, specifically

This is why things like:
-Crabs (claws)
-Steelix
-Dugtrio
-Pokemon with slim/small lower bodies, but strong upper bodies or hands like Excadrill or Diggersby or Rillaboom
-Or things that jsut hit you in the face, like COnkeldurr

Which is to say a car running you over should get High Horsepower, imo.

The one thing all of those examples have in common is that they learn High Horsepower only by the TR in Sword/Shield, and High Horsepower is one of those glaring omissions from the TM list in Scarlet/Violet.

Were it still a TM move, I’m sure Revavroom would be compatible with it. I suppose it would have been appropriate for High Horsepower to have appeared on its level up list regardless, especially if Klawf learns it naturally.

 

[CPU]

Revavroom has a pretty well built movepool. It’s blatantly a car so they gave it some good vehicle based moves like Shift gear, Overheat, and its signature move Spin Out alongside stuff like Uproar and poison gas.
But then they didn’t give it U-turn or High horsepower, both of which are stuff cars are know for doing and used to gauge engine power respectively. Would have been great for it to, cause its stuck with only STAB moves and either weak bp moves or overheat

U-turn learners have typically had some sort of nimble, acrobatic quality to them. I guess according to Game Freak it doesn't meet that criteria, despite floating.

When Gen 4 first game out, the unofficial translation of the move I was familiar with was "Somersault," though that's not what Bulbapedia currently has listed as their translation for the Japanese name. It is noteworthy, however, that the Japanese name for it contains the word for "dragonfly," which explains why the move is Bug-type.

 

[SturdyShedinja]

Nightmare has very strange distribution.

By levelup, it’s learned by the gastly line, hypno, darkrai and munna, which all make sense. But by egg move, it’s learned by spiritomb, yamask, and mimikyu. Why these pokemon in particular? I can see spiritomb cursing a sleeping opponent with terrible dreams, but yamask and especially mimikyu don’t seem as hostile. And why can’t any other psychic or ghost types get it?

The tm distribution is also bizarre, but most early generation tms struggle in that regard. Most of the psychic and ghost types make sense, and clefairy and jigglypuff get a pass for having huge movepools in general, but why do lickitung and dunsparce get it? Furthermore, why does butterfree learn it, but no other bug types like parasect do? It’s even stranger that most of the pokemon who learned it through tm can’t get it anymore, especially pokemon like misdreavus.

It’s just an all around strange move

 

[LunaStik]

Nightmare has very strange distribution.

By levelup, it’s learned by the gastly line, hypno, darkrai and munna, which all make sense. But by egg move, it’s learned by spiritomb, yamask, and mimikyu. Why these pokemon in particular? I can see spiritomb cursing a sleeping opponent with terrible dreams, but yamask and especially mimikyu don’t seem as hostile. And why can’t any other psychic or ghost types get it?

The tm distribution is also bizarre, but most early generation tms struggle in that regard. Most of the psychic and ghost types make sense, and clefairy and jigglypuff get a pass for having huge movepools in general, but why do lickitung and dunsparce get it? Furthermore, why does butterfree learn it, but no other bug types like parasect do? It’s even stranger that most of the pokemon who learned it through tm can’t get it anymore, especially pokemon like misdreavus.

It’s just an all around strange move

A lot of these I don’t have answers for, but Dunsparce is based off a Japanese Cryptid called a Tsuchinoko. Taken from a Cryptid site: “Signs a tsuchinoko may be in your area include hearing a mouse-like squeak coming from a river, or in some cases, a seemingly human voice mimicking your conversations from the depths of a dank cave.” Parts of that certainly seem creepy to me.

 

[Magcargo]

Was scrolling through Great Tusk's movepool and saw that it got Psyshock randomly, which is pretty strange. It doesn't get Psychic or a lot of other Special attacks like Focus Blast, so Psyshock seems out of place.

 

[Blitz]

Yea I freaked out about it and posted it closer to release

Still dumb tho

 

[Pikachu315111]

Ok, I got another weird case here, what's up with Facade distribution?
It was introduced in Gen 3 as TM 42, and has been a TM ever since, sometimes changing number but always somewhere. In gen 3 the only Pokémon that couldn't use the TM were the usual "can't learn TMs" mons like Magikarp, Ditto, etc.
Come Gen 7, and we have 4 cases of fully evolved non-gimmicky mons that can't learn it, Kartana, Magearna, Shiinotic and Toucannon.
This happens again in Gen 9 with Bellibolt, Toedscruel, Veluza, Flutter Mane, Gholdengo and Iron Valiant.
But why are they different?

First, let's look at the Move in question: Facade. Or, as it's known in Japanese, Karagenki, which is often translated to the English word "Bravado" though it's not exactly the same. Bravado is acting in a bold manner to impress/intimidate. Meanwhile Karagenki more aligns with the saying "put on a brave face (against adversity)"; Acting brave/bold/fine even though you're not feeling it or well. This of course fits into its effect of doubling Power when the user is afflicted with a status condition. Facade is a reasonable translation change in order to more fit with the Move's effect, a facade being a fake front (usually of a building but can also refer to putting forth a fake personality) to cover/hide what's beneath.

So, a Pokemon who can't learn Facade, in theory, is one who can't hide their true feelings. So, let's take a look at that list:

• Kartana, Magearna, Shiinotic, Toedscruel and Iron Valiant makes sense as they're portrayed as emotionless.
• Toucannon and Veluza are eternally pi**ed off.
• Bellibolt and Gholdengo are just being jolly fellows.
• And if Flutter Mane is like base Misdreavus, it feeds on negative emotions via misery it causes so not too concerned with hiding its intentions.

"But there's plenty of other Pokemon who can fit these categories, why these batch?". For that I have two thoughts:

1. For those Pokemon which are from Gen I-VI, well it's kind of too late to not give them Facade. For whatever reason, Gen VII is when GF decided Facade's flavor wasn't fit for some Pokemon, but while they could prevent some new Pokemon from getting the Move, it was kind of pointless to remove them from older Pokemon.
   
   
2. These specific Pokemon are the extreme cases, at least according to GF. Yeah there's other Pokemon which are said to be emotionless or stuck on a personality, but not to the extent these above examples are.

 

[KaenSoul]

Speaking of universal TMs here is another weird case, the list of mons that can't learn Substitute despite being compatible with other TMs:

I can't think of a good reason for this, but must have something to do with their hair somehow.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Speaking of universal TMs here is another weird case, the list of mons that can't learn Substitute despite being compatible with other TMs:

I can't think of a good reason for this, but must have something to do with their hair somehow.

Already discussed.

 

[R_N]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koinobori This is what Gyarados is based on.

Still, the lack of physical flying moves that aren't "look at how bird I am" is quite annoying. Specially when a bat gets to learn Brave Bird, while stem-birds Aerodactyl and Archeops don't.

Figured I'd drag this one over here

So Archeops I think doesn't get it specifically because it does recoil. Like on paper you'd think that with Defeatist, they would pepper those high-risk recoil moves that draw you close & closer to the threshold but they actually avoid them entirely. Instead the high-risk moves it favors are mediocre accuracy or things that lock you into the move and a few 2-turn moves. It seems like the movepool was designed around a rampage with a risk of going lower, but not something you can actively do to yourself.

Aerodactyl has no explanation other than another in a line of weird decisions for this thing's movepool. It took forever to get actual rock moves on it, even though Rock Slide was right there since Day 1. And more relevantly, the decision to give it Rock head in gen 3 and then somehow not give it a single other recoil move for the next 5 generations. Not even Double Edge, a move it could already learn in gen 1!!!. It's like they're scared of giving it options. Like yeah its fast and strong but that's not stopped them before, much less by gen 8.

 

[Eriorguez]

Still, Archeops does get Head Smash.

...

Just give Aerodactyl both as well. It is frail but fast, so it would be a fun hyperoffensive niche.

 

[R_N]

Still, Archeops does get Head Smash.

...

Just give Aerodactyl both as well. It is frail but fast, so it would be a fun hyperoffensive niche.

Ah you're right about Head Smash. I actually looked up & down that level up, TM/TR/Tutor list like 6 times and neglected to look at the Breeding section.
Yeah they probably should have given it Brave Bird too at that point. Even if it was through a a breeding chain.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Figured I'd drag this one over here

So Archeops I think doesn't get it specifically because it does recoil. Like on paper you'd think that with Defeatist, they would pepper those high-risk recoil moves that draw you close & closer to the threshold but they actually avoid them entirely. Instead the high-risk moves it favors are mediocre accuracy or things that lock you into the move and a few 2-turn moves. It seems like the movepool was designed around a rampage with a risk of going lower, but not something you can actively do to yourself.

Aerodactyl has no explanation other than another in a line of weird decisions for this thing's movepool. It took forever to get actual rock moves on it, even though Rock Slide was right there since Day 1. And more relevantly, the decision to give it Rock head in gen 3 and then somehow not give it a single other recoil move for the next 5 generations. Not even Double Edge, a move it could already learn in gen 1!!!. It's like they're scared of giving it options. Like yeah its fast and strong but that's not stopped them before, much less by gen 8.

Aerodactyl does get Double-Edge in Gen III, albeit only by tutoring. It is exactly the sort of move it should learn naturally, though.

 

[R_N]

Aerodactyl does get Double-Edge in Gen III, albeit only by tutoring. It is exactly the sort of move it should learn naturally, though.

That's weird I thought bulbapedia said it didn't get in gen 3.

Checkin again....ah, i was looking at Dragon Rage which was right below it on the transfer move list.

but yes it is something it should learn naturally, or maybe by breeding. The only reason it got it in Gen 3 was probably out of obligation...Really in a post-Returnless world they should have just made Double Edge a TR/TM.

 

[Pikachu315111]

So Archeops I think doesn't get it specifically because it does recoil. Like on paper you'd think that with Defeatist, they would pepper those high-risk recoil moves that draw you close & closer to the threshold but they actually avoid them entirely.

It would be nice if they gave Defeatist a small positive effect while the user is above 50% HP. "Well the positive comes from allowing Archeops stat to be the highest of all non-Legendary Pokemon, and it evolves pretty early". True, but while a fun terror to use in the main game, outside that you'd always want a Pokemon with a helpful Ability (I'll admit I never used an Archeops on my team during the main game, though I imagine late game it's frailty starts becoming move apparent). And I'm not talking a HUGE buff, like working off the concept of the Ability (the user losing its nerve when its weakened), it'll make it cautious when using recoil Moves. Recoil Moves become 20% weaker but recoil damage is cut in half. That way Archeops can get Brave Bird & Double-Edge (maybe also Flare Blitz for fun) and not hesitant to use Head Smash without being too busted. Ooh, and since below 50% it'll be panicking, they can have the opposite happen: Recoil Moves do 20% more damage but recoil damage increases by 50%; if you still have Archeops out than means you're planning on sacking it so, if it has a chance to attack, might as well end it with a bang even with a weakened Attack stat.

This could also in theory open the door for this Ability being given to other future Pokemon.

Aerodactyl has no explanation other than another in a line of weird decisions for this thing's movepool. (...) And more relevantly, the decision to give it Rock head in gen 3 and then somehow not give it a single other recoil move for the next 5 generations. (...) It's like they're scared of giving it options.

Not only that, if they're that afraid it'll be too busted with more stronger recoil Moves, than REPLACE ROCK HEAD. Going by the Dex, they keep bringing up its powerful bite, so give it Strong Jaw (and while you're at it, can you make a Rock-type biting move already? Also a Water-type biting move that's not a Signature Move, and maybe a Dragon-type too).

 

[QuentinQuonce]

It would be nice if they gave Defeatist a small positive effect while the user is above 50% HP. "Well the positive comes from allowing Archeops stat to be the highest of all non-Legendary Pokemon, and it evolves pretty early". True, but while a fun terror to use in the main game, outside that you'd always want a Pokemon with a helpful Ability (I'll admit I never used an Archeops on my team during the main game, though I imagine late game it's frailty starts becoming move apparent). And I'm not talking a HUGE buff, like working off the concept of the Ability (the user losing its nerve when its weakened), it'll make it cautious when using recoil Moves. Recoil Moves become 20% weaker but recoil damage is cut in half. That way Archeops can get Brave Bird & Double-Edge (maybe also Flare Blitz for fun) and not hesitant to use Head Smash without being too busted. Ooh, and since below 50% it'll be panicking, they can have the opposite happen: Recoil Moves do 20% more damage but recoil damage increases by 50%; if you still have Archeops out than means you're planning on sacking it so, if it has a chance to attack, might as well end it with a bang even with a weakened Attack stat.

This could also in theory open the door for this Ability being given to other future Pokemon.



Not only that, if they're that afraid it'll be too busted with more stronger recoil Moves, than REPLACE ROCK HEAD. Going by the Dex, they keep bringing up its powerful bite, so give it Strong Jaw (and while you're at it, can you make a Rock-type biting move already? Also a Water-type biting move that's not a Signature Move, and maybe a Dragon-type too).

How exactly is making recoil moves weaker a buff? If they're less powerful, the recoil damage will be reduced anyway - because you'll be doing less damage in the first place.

There's really no benefit in this scenario to using, say, Double-Edge instead of Strength or something else with a comparable base power.

A couple of the Archeops in the Battle Subway have what is realistically the only way to make Head Smash work in conjunction with Defeatist - they hold a Sitrus Berry. One or two uses of Head Smash gets you under 50%, Sitrus Berry brings you back over 50% which gives you one final use of the move. It's either that or simply trying to hit so hard that you OHKO everything else before they can reduce your HP.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

The general use Head Smash has had on Archeops from my experience is to give Archeops an extremely high power move that it can still do reasonable damage with even when it's in Defeatist range. Since its base power is extremely high at 150, even an Archeops with its innately insane Attack cut in half can still deal solid damage, and the recoil basically does enough to bring it down, possibly in a "go down with me" manner.

Nowadays it's the main move on Stealth Rock suicide lead Archeops to get one hit in as a "I'm taking you down with me" before the recoil self-KOes Archeops itself.

But back in Gen 5 from my experience it would spam Acrobatics and Stone Edge from its high Attack at higher health, and then when brought down to Defeatist range the immense 150 BP of Head Smash gave it an out to do reasonable damage even under the crippling effect of Defeatist and as I said, self-knockout.

So in a sense you don't use it when you're at full health and risk putting Archeops in Defeatist range, but instead use Head Smash as the final resort when Archeops is currently at under half HP and thus under the effects of Defeatist as an ultimatum attack that puts everything on the line before Archeops inevitably goes down.