Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

Why does Mareep learn Thunderbolt by breeding in Gen II? In other gens it's a TM, fine. But it was semi-exclusive by level-up in that gen, with only the Pikachu and Electabuzz lines learning it naturally. I'd understand if it was widely available by breeding as a way to make up for it not being a TM, given out to Lanturn/Girafarig/etc, but just Mareep feels like an oversight.
I mean, maybe they just thought it would be fun for Mareep to have it?

I guess you really wanted to give an explanation, the fluffy fur building up to a thunderbolt lent itself to an egg move.


They also gave Psyduck Ice Beam by egg move in Gen 2, so if anything the real oversight was not giving Flamethrower to one (1) Pokemon by egg move.
 
Play Rough has some interesting thematic connotations. Given the attack drop appears to represent the target not feeling threatened (matching Charm, Play Nice, Growl if you read the description), we would expect the move to be primarily found on mons that aren't in the business of wallbreaking (because you would probably still be on guard after taking a hit that can punch through sheet metal). Yet, as the strongest and most widely available physical Fairy move, it ends up there anyway.

Here's a list of physically attacking Fairy-types and whether they learn Play Rough:

Play rough by level: :Grimmsnarl:*, :azumarill:, :granbull:, :slurpuff:, :mawile:, :tinkaton:, :mimikyu:

Play rough by TM: :Zacian:, :Xerneas:**, :Diancie:, :rapidash-galar:, :Altaria-mega:***

Does not learn Play rough: :Tapu Koko:, :Iron Valiant:, :tapu bulu:

*Atk is its highest stat, even if I don't think I've seen it been used in an attacking role.
**both attacking stats are equal which is why it was included. I am aware Geomancy exists.
*** the tm is only in gen 8 and 9, where Altaria is unable to mega evolve into a Fairy-type..

The top row is the one that's most interesting to me. Granbull is mentioned in dex entries as not being combative in spite of its jaw, Mimikyu is certainly trying to be nonthreatening (to uncertain success) and Grimmsnarl is only borderline on the Physical Attackers list. That leaves four remaining mons, which all have an aspect in common: they aren't serious attacking threats all of the time. Slurpuff is reliant on Belly Drum, Tinkaton on Gigaton Hammer, and both Mawile and Azumarill on Huge Power (the former also gets Sheer Force, cutting off the Attack Drop entirely). We can then think of Play Rough as leaning on the perception of these mons when they are not at maximum aggression, even when a given attack is coming from that position. At the other end of the scale, you are under no illusion of safety when facing down Valiant or the Tapus.
 

Pikachu315111

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Play Rough has some interesting thematic connotations. Given the attack drop appears to represent the target not feeling threatened (matching Charm, Play Nice, Growl if you read the description), we would expect the move to be primarily found on mons that aren't in the business of wallbreaking (because you would probably still be on guard after taking a hit that can punch through sheet metal). Yet, as the strongest and most widely available physical Fairy move, it ends up there anyway.
I'm guessing you're basing this off its translated Japanese name, "Frolic"... Or is it? It's actual Japanese name is "Jaretsuku", or more precisely "じゃれつく". Let's throw that into Google translate and see what we get:
じゃれつく / Jare tsuku = Playful
Well, in the spirit things I guess it's the same, though "Frolic" and "Playful" are two different things.

BUT WAIT, according to Google, じゃれつく isn't "Jaretsuku", it's "Jare tsuku", two separate words. Let's look up those words individually:

Jare ( じゃれ ): Prank. Playing Around. Joke/Jokingly.
Tsuku (つく): Attach/Arrive. Thrust/Strike. Stick/Poke/Break.

There seems to be more going on here than just playing around. Let's also note how the anime & manga portrays the move. While in the games the user just tackles the target and are both obscured by a cartoony dust cloud, in the more visual mediums they go as follow:

Manga:
* Skitty:
Rolls itself against the opponent and wedges its fur all over them, lowering their attack power.

Anime:
* Mimikyu:
Jumps towards the opponent and cloaks it with a thick, white smoke surrounded by stars. It then hits the opponent multiple times with its stick.
* Mega Altaria: Flies at the opponent and surrounds them with its wings and plumage. It then hits the opponent with its wings. Yellow sparks of energy appear around it as the opponent takes damage.

From what it sounds like, the Move isn't the user playing with the target in a way the target is letting its guard down. Rather, from what I gathered, the move is the user intentionally rough housing with the target, playfully holding it down and striking them. The decreased Attack is likely because the target was being held down, they're attacking opportunity was being limited as they needed to go into a defensive position.

Thus it explains why fiercer looking Pokemon like Grimmsnarl, Granbull, Mawile, Zacian, Xerneas, and G-Rapidash get it. Also could explain why the Tapu and Iron Valiant don't get it, it's just not they're battling style to hold down the opponent (and while Iron Valiant makes do with Spirit Break, unfortunately the Tapu lack a good Physical Fairy STAB that GF for some reason decided didn't need remedying).
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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weeee hehe yaaaaay teehee <- grimmsnarl and the girls prancing around and beating you senseless with a hammer
That's fae for ya, chaotic beings who do whatever the hell they want with no regard for anything else. For them it's them having fun, even if it's others getting beaten senseless and no fun at all for them.

Fae in their purest form here. Just beings of chaos who have their fun at the expense of others, they don't give a damn if they make others miserable or cause trouble for them so long as they have their fun by doing whatever they want and causing all the trouble they can.
 

Celever

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I actually have a new move I found odd for this thread, in 130 pages it hasn't come up! That move is Silver Wind, in Generation 4. This was the only gen where Silver Wind was a TM and outside of that it's only ever been a level-up or egg move, and due to this it has wide distribution that feels a little weird in retrospect.

It's extremely clear from the in-game descriptions what Silver Wind is: "The foe is attacked with powdery scales blown by wind. It may also raise all the user's stats." This means that any Pokémon with scales and an ability to generate wind could probably do a decent job of using this move, and while it doesn't have that degree of distribution (like Sandaconda could probably learn this based on those metrics, though Silver Wind was movexited in gen 8) there are also a number of Pokémon without scales who learn the move in gen 4: the Hoothoot family, Togetic, the Xatu family, the Hoppip family, Celebi, Shiftry, Tropius, the Drifloon family, Spiritomb, and Arceus.

Note that Silver Wind doesn't have wide distribution at all, and though some of these seem to learn Silver Wind just due to association with wind itself, others have no particular assocation with it. The main family who I thought "oh well they're closely linked to wind so it's fine" was the Hoppip family, but unlike everything else on this list besides Celebi, they don't also learn Ominous Wind. And sure, they're happy lil fellas, but if Chingling can learn Ominous Wind then so can Skiploom. And on that note, Chimecho is a windchime and therefore quite possibly the Pokémon most closely linked to wind as an element, and it doesn't learn Silver Wind.

It just seems like a strange selection of Pokémon when you put them together. Why did Hoothoot learn Silver Wind back in gen 4 but Spearow or Taillow didn't? Why do Xatu, as a primarily flightless bird, learn the move but Dodrio doesn't? The vast majority of Flying-Type Pokémon actually learned Ominous Wind in gen 4, so there was something special about these folks in the minds of the developers, and I just can't understand what it was.
 
Hoothoot, Togetic, Xatu, Drifloon, Spiritomb all probably get it because they're deemed suitably "mysterious" while having a vague connection to wind (flying/flapping, riding the wind, looking like a wind vortex).

what the exact line between mysterious enough and not, who knows. As you say Chimecho probably could have gotten it since it has a stronger wind connection, but maybe it's seen as flailing rather than r iding it?

Hoppip I bget got the line entirely on the back of the wind connection and they might see it akin to the cotton spores it spreads as a Jumpluff (or maybe it gets scales on it from butterflies as a skiploom). If Silver Wind were brought back, I could see Eldegoss getting it as well.
 
I actually have a new move I found odd for this thread, in 130 pages it hasn't come up! That move is Silver Wind, in Generation 4. This was the only gen where Silver Wind was a TM and outside of that it's only ever been a level-up or egg move, and due to this it has wide distribution that feels a little weird in retrospect.

It's extremely clear from the in-game descriptions what Silver Wind is: "The foe is attacked with powdery scales blown by wind. It may also raise all the user's stats." This means that any Pokémon with scales and an ability to generate wind could probably do a decent job of using this move, and while it doesn't have that degree of distribution (like Sandaconda could probably learn this based on those metrics, though Silver Wind was movexited in gen 8) there are also a number of Pokémon without scales who learn the move in gen 4: the Hoothoot family, Togetic, the Xatu family, the Hoppip family, Celebi, Shiftry, Tropius, the Drifloon family, Spiritomb, and Arceus.

Note that Silver Wind doesn't have wide distribution at all, and though some of these seem to learn Silver Wind just due to association with wind itself, others have no particular assocation with it. The main family who I thought "oh well they're closely linked to wind so it's fine" was the Hoppip family, but unlike everything else on this list besides Celebi, they don't also learn Ominous Wind. And sure, they're happy lil fellas, but if Chingling can learn Ominous Wind then so can Skiploom. And on that note, Chimecho is a windchime and therefore quite possibly the Pokémon most closely linked to wind as an element, and it doesn't learn Silver Wind.

It just seems like a strange selection of Pokémon when you put them together. Why did Hoothoot learn Silver Wind back in gen 4 but Spearow or Taillow didn't? Why do Xatu, as a primarily flightless bird, learn the move but Dodrio doesn't? The vast majority of Flying-Type Pokémon actually learned Ominous Wind in gen 4, so there was something special about these folks in the minds of the developers, and I just can't understand what it was.
I always interpreted the "scales" as originally being from butterfly/moth wings (comparing the Bug type, main learners, and the Silver Powder item). So Celebi makes sense since it has insect-like wings, and the other grass types with a wind focus could take it as a combination of the wind aspect and the traditional association between Grass and powder moves.

Side note: Chimecho hasn't really been able to use the wind in most games. It only got Ominous Wind in L:A,.
 
Wrap and Bind being two separate moves despite being almost identical both mechanically and flavorfully is already pretty weird, but what's weirder is that there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason behind what gets Wrap vs what gets Bind.

:arbok::dratini::seviper::milotic::serperior::sandaconda::centiskorch::wugtrio::orthworm:
These serpentine Pokemon learn Wrap...
:onix::gyarados::eelektrik::zygarde:
...while these serpentine Pokemon learn Bind.

:tentacruel::shuckle::octillery::cradily::chimecho::deoxys::malamar::comfey::nihilego::xurkitree::toedscruel:
These tentacled Pokemon learn Wrap...
:omastar::cryogonal::grapploct:
...while these tentacled Pokemon learn Bind.

:victreebel::dhelmise:
These vined Pokemon learn Wrap...
:tangela::carnivine::zarude:
...while these vined Pokemon learn Bind.

:lickitung:
This tongued Pokemon learns Wrap...
:kecleon::heatmor::inteleon:
...while these tongued Pokemon learn Bind. (Kecleon and Inteleon might alternatively use their tails, but Kecleon has been shown using Bind with its tongue in other media). Lickitung also learns Bind in Let's Go, making it the only Pokemon to learn both Wrap and Bind through level-up, and also it learns Bind at a later level than Wrap even though it's objectively worse by 5% accuracy, which is its own oddity.

:pinsir::dusknoir::throh::klinklang::bewear:
The only pattern I can discern is that grabby Pokemon without a long snaky thing to wrap around the foe learn Bind, which makes sense. This could also be why Grapploct learns Bind, as it's pretty similar to Pinsir and Throh.
 

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Wrap and Bind as they exist in the first place (ie in Gen 1) seems like a prime example of Gen 1 weirdness and lots of abrupt changes here and there happening with movepools and moves being one of those fields that it happened in. There are many examples of repetitiveness in moves and movepools in Gen 1, albeit many were addressed/fixed afterwards.

The only difference is that they never bothered to change things to truly differentiate them and the distinguishment between who gets Wrap and who gets Bind is indeed rather arbitrary.

That said, Bind seems to have developed its own separate group of Pokemon that don't have any sort of vines or serpentine body, and would perform the move via literally holding the opponent and choking them like a person would, which is where Dusclops/Dusknoir, Pinsir, Throh, and Bewear come into the equation, although admittedly this doesn't address the arbitrary overlap in the rest of the groups who learn Wrap/Bind.

I would argue Grapploct learning Bind however is indeed in line with how Pinsir, Bewear, or Throh would use it. I remember watching an episode of the anime long ago where a Throh used Bind and the way it used it was by basically performing a judo choke-hold, ie grab the opponent from behind around the neck/head and choke-hold them to incapacitate them. I would imagine Grapploct is a similar case, using its tentacles as appendages in martial-arts styled combat and it would indeed perform a choke-hold from behind similar to how it's performed in martial arts. Octolock, for instance, is shown in a similar manner in the anime from what little was shown of Grapploct in the anime thus far.
 

Pikachu315111

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Wrap and Bind being two separate moves despite being almost identical both mechanically and flavorfully is already pretty weird, but what's weirder is that there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason behind what gets Wrap vs what gets Bind.
From how I understand it, Pokemon which learn "Wrap" use the full length of the body part they're using to wrap around their opponent. Meanwhile with Bind, as ScraftyIsTheBest suggested, the user is just using enough of their binding body part to hold their opponent down. Bind Pokemon tend to be bigger and stronger (whether in muscle or made of a hard element) so even without using their whole appendage they're hard to break free from, meanwhile Wrap Pokemon are either smaller, softer body, and/or don't have an additional trait which makes just fully tying around their opponent the best way to assure they're not moving.
 
why do some Pokémon learn Earth Power but not Earthquake? shouldn't being able to magically shake earth be enough to make the earth quake?
Earth Power's description suggests it's more power erupting out of the ground than the ground itself quaking and shaking. It theoretically takes a lot of Physical force to quake the entire ground, whereas EP seems to be splitting the ground and then vague Energy shoots out at the target. Something mundane and heavy could use EQ compared to EP I assume requiring some kind of energy or whatever criteria goes into special attacking.
 
Wrap and Bind being two separate moves despite being almost identical both mechanically and flavorfully is already pretty weird, but what's weirder is that there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason behind what gets Wrap vs what gets Bind.

:arbok::dratini::seviper::milotic::serperior::sandaconda::centiskorch::wugtrio::orthworm:
These serpentine Pokemon learn Wrap...
:onix::gyarados::eelektrik::zygarde:
...while these serpentine Pokemon learn Bind.

:tentacruel::shuckle::octillery::cradily::chimecho::deoxys::malamar::comfey::nihilego::xurkitree::toedscruel:
These tentacled Pokemon learn Wrap...
:omastar::cryogonal::grapploct:
...while these tentacled Pokemon learn Bind.

:victreebel::dhelmise:
These vined Pokemon learn Wrap...
:tangela::carnivine::zarude:
...while these vined Pokemon learn Bind.

:lickitung:
This tongued Pokemon learns Wrap...
:kecleon::heatmor::inteleon:
...while these tongued Pokemon learn Bind. (Kecleon and Inteleon might alternatively use their tails, but Kecleon has been shown using Bind with its tongue in other media). Lickitung also learns Bind in Let's Go, making it the only Pokemon to learn both Wrap and Bind through level-up, and also it learns Bind at a later level than Wrap even though it's objectively worse by 5% accuracy, which is its own oddity.

:pinsir::dusknoir::throh::klinklang::bewear:
The only pattern I can discern is that grabby Pokemon without a long snaky thing to wrap around the foe learn Bind, which makes sense. This could also be why Grapploct learns Bind, as it's pretty similar to Pinsir and Throh.
Something that feels similar to me is air cutter and air slash. Both moves are special flying type attacks with seemingly the same flavor. The main difference is that air slash has 15 more base power and can flinch, while air cutter has an increased crit chance. Something I found out while doing a small bit of research is that air cutter was released before in gen 3, while air slash was released in gen 4.

Edit:
Air cutter has the extra perk of hitting all enemies in a multi battle. Making it actually stronger than air slash in doubles if you don't care for the flinch
That explanation pretty much answer my question. Considering that double battle where introduced in gen 3, air cutter could have likely been made for it in mind. While air slash could have been added to add a regular special flying type move for the physical special split.
 
Last edited:
Something that feels similar to me is air cutter and air slash. Both moves are special flying type attacks with seemingly the same flavor. The main difference is that air slash has 15 more base power and can flinch, while air cutter has an increased crit chance. Something I found out while doing a small bit of research is that air cutter was released before in gen 3, while air slash was released in gen 4.
Air cutter has the extra perk of hitting all enemies in a multi battle. Making it actually stronger than air slash in doubles if you don't care for the flinch
 
Something that feels similar to me is air cutter and air slash. Both moves are special flying type attacks with seemingly the same flavor. The main difference is that air slash has 15 more base power and can flinch, while air cutter has an increased crit chance. Something I found out while doing a small bit of research is that air cutter was released before in gen 3, while air slash was released in gen 4.
Eh, 15 base power is a pretty decent jump in strength, enough that Air Cutter and Air Slash would slot into different parts of a Pokemon's level-up movepool. A decent number of Pokemon do learn both, but for others, the devs wanted to fit different moves into their level-up moves, and only gave them one air slice to save room.

They're not like Bind and Wrap where they're mechanically pretty much interchangable, and Pokemon only get one or the other for reasons unclear.
 

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Something I found out while doing a small bit of research is that air cutter was released before in gen 3, while air slash was released in gen 4.
Adding in my two cents, Air Slash being added in Gen 4 is notable. Gen 4 was when the Physical/Special split occurred and many Moves that are staples were introduced during this time either to fill in missing gaps or to experiment with Types in the opposite Category. Flying was Physical in Gen 1-3 and not that many Flying Moves were re-categorized as Special: Gust, Aeroblast (Lugia's Sig Move so doesn't count), and Air Cutter. Special Flying-types were missing a decently powered Flying-type Move, so Air Slash was made. It likely followed the idea that if Gust used wind to cause blunt damage and Air Cutter was using multiple cuts to do spread damage, the next "upgrade" would be a concentrated, giant single air slash.
 
Yeah those really do just seem like oversights. If all the future paradoxes didn't get it you could hand wave those ones as thematic (they're robot, also electric terrain prevents sleeping anyway [they all get Rest, but whatever]) but only those two specifically? Little weird. Quaxly & Quaxwell also don't get Substitute so it jsut seems like something go missed




Related, I was checking Rest, and Bombirdier doesn't get Rest? Also weird.
 
Speaking of Earthquake, what starters do and don't get it seems really weird. All the fully evolved Gen I-IV starters get it, but then starting in Gen V only one per generation can learn it (Emboar, Chesnaught, Incineroar, Rillaboom, and Skeledirge). No Water starter has been able to learn EQ since Gen IV for... some reason.
 
Speaking of Earthquake, what starters do and don't get it seems really weird. All the fully evolved Gen I-IV starters get it, but then starting in Gen V only one per generation can learn it (Emboar, Chesnaught, Incineroar, Rillaboom, and Skeledirge). No Water starter has been able to learn EQ since Gen IV for... some reason.
Any time gen 1-2(and to some degree, 3) pokemon's movesets are involved, I wouldn't ask too many questions.
Many of them suffer from messed up early movesets where pokemon learned moves "because yes" as there wasn't much thought behind it and it was transferred over.
Earthquake being learnable by almost everything under the sun isn't exactly much different from the insane amount of early gens pokemon learning Surf or Icebeam or Flamethrower
 

Karxrida

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(they're robot, also electric terrain prevents sleeping anyway [they all get Rest, but whatever])
You could theoretically Rest to heal up, switch out to set up Terrain, and switch back in to wake up. Plus other robotic Pokémon (except Magearna for some reason) have access to Rest since it's one of those "if you can learn TMs you get it" moves.

Related, I was checking Rest, and Bombirdier doesn't get Rest? Also weird.
That also seems like an oversight.
 

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Speaking of Earthquake, what starters do and don't get it seems really weird. All the fully evolved Gen I-IV starters get it, but then starting in Gen V only one per generation can learn it (Emboar, Chesnaught, Incineroar, Rillaboom, and Skeledirge). No Water starter has been able to learn EQ since Gen IV for... some reason.
The philosophy from Gen 5 onwards with which starter gets Earthquake seems to be that the big, heavyweight, strong looking starter of the group is the only one who gets Earthquake.

All five of those Pokemon you mentioned are the heaviest member of their respective starter trio and in general lean towards the "big, strong, tough looking" design of their trio while the other two members in all cases are comparatively lightweight and have slimmer and more agile builds (it's usually cool looking, lightweight, fast/nimble and edgy type design and then a more feminine looking design to complete the trio). The Paldea, Kalos, and Alola starter trios in particular have the trio designs split between "tough, masculine, powerhouse design", "feminine but strong design", and "cool, fast, edgy design". The latter two tending to skew towards shojo and shonen style designs respectively.

Within the Water starters, Samurott is arguably debatable but Greninja, Primarina, Inteleon, and Quaquaval are all relatively light and have slim builds. Quaquaval is the heaviest of the four at 136 lbs roughly, but within its trio Skeledirge is significantly heavier at over 700 lbs, and has the perfect build to use Earthquake logically being bulky and heavyweight. Meowscarada is obviously a lightweight.

The same applies to Serperior, Delphox, Decidueye, and Cinderace as well, all of which are pretty light and have very lightweight slim builds.

Starters from the first three generations tended to all be relatively heavy and had more animalistic designs/builds which justified them all having Earthquake. Gen 4 was where the design philosophy started to take a shift, but having all three learn Earthquake worked there because Infernape while more nimble was also part Fighting-type and was >120 lbs while Empoleon is part Steel-type (these mons tend to learn Earthquake via TM) and still relatively heavy. Torterra is of course a Ground-type in and of itself and was the one who got to learn Earthquake naturally.
 

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