Metagame NP: RU Stage 1: Dog Days Are Over / Hello Kitty

[DinaIsha]

Everyone's post upto now: "Froslass is OP. Shuckle is probably OP too."

 

[Blizzard]

Posting this late, i'm probably regurgitating whatever's been said in the thread so far...

Froslass is undoubtedly really good right now. Access to D-Bond, Taunt, Cursed Body, ghost typing and that crazy base speed makes it a brilliant spikes setter. It's definitely guaranteed to get at least 1 layer + a kill in every match, which is obviously very good for support. Also, the amount of pokemon that benefit from spikestacking is huge. Sharpedo is the no. 1 pokemon to use on froslass HO since it really benefits from having hazards on the opponent's side. Froslass makes HO such an easy playstyle to use, it's not even funny. Yeah, the amount of 50/50s it forces kinda shows how unhealthy it is for the metagame. There are little to no pokemon that can limit it to 1 layer of spikes (stuff like doublade can, with shadow claw/iron head followed by shadow sneak or something, etc) but the froslass user can always switch out and set up hazards later on when favourable, thus still allowing it to do its job. Levitators/ flying types may not be affected by spikes, but RU offers some really good SR setters too, like Cobalion (brilliant Froslass partner) and Rhyperior or gligar, etc. Spinning/Defogging is tough since it's a ghost and it's really fast having access to Taunt. The team may also have a Defiant user like Braviary, which is a really dangerous pokemon, obviously moreso on a spikestacking team, which greatly discourages Defog.

So i too believe that Froslass is very centralizing. It really doesn't take much skill to use, while reaping many benefits in return. There are many ways to abuse spikestacking, and very few effective ways of spinning/Defogging/countering it. This makes the metagame very offensively inclined and hazards based (along with Sticky Web HO), thus making it really stale. I'd definitely vote for a ban too.

Also, yeah Sticky Web is something i'd love to see suspected next, since it does have similar problems as Froslass HO ( it's even better imo). Although i'd love to see what the metagame looks like without Froslass before we suspect it.

 

[Molk]

Hey i'm just gonna pop in here to change the topic a bit and say that even though the metagame is very offensively leaning at the moment, that i and several other users including Hot N Cold, Meru, tehy, Silvershadow234, and Bloo have had quite a bit of success with some well built stall teams (emphasis on well built), more specifically stall teams utilizing Toxic Spikes. In a metagame where offensive teams and tons of powerful wallbreakers exist, Toxic Spikes are pretty much stall's ace in the whole to help those kinds of teams keep up atm imo. Looking at a lot of the RU threats in the viability ranking thread, you'll notice that a lot of the common/relevant Pokemon are pretty vulnerable to the move. For example, Delphox, Sharpedo, Zoroark, Rhyperior, Hitmonlee, Exploud, Druddigon, and Meloetta are all common/relevant threats that end up absolutely crippled by this hazard, putting them on a timer and making it that much easier for stall teams to deal with them. Also, especially against offensive teams, all of RU's relevant spinners (Kabutops, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, dont even try mentioning Claydol), are vulnerable to Tspikes, greatly reducing the amount of times they can successfully spin to support their team before the hazards are up for good. I also found that using Doublade on stall worked pretty well. Not just does using SD Doublade give you a very solid spinblocker against those aforementioned Rapid Spin users, but it also gives you a good win condition and emergency priority just in case something goes wrong on your end, and it just so happens that Doublade heavily appreciates two of the factors that are always found in a good defensive team: hazards stacking and wish support, making it that much more effective at the latter. Either way, below are two stall teams that i've built in this metagame, they might not be perfect (no team is), but they work well enough imo and you should feel free to try them out if you so desire. I'd also like it if at least some of the tagged users gave their thoughts on stall in the metagame as well, especially in a possible post froslass enviornment.

Hide

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Rock Slide

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 152 SDef
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Scald

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Defog
- Roost

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

Meloetta @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Perish Song
- Heal Bell
- Shadow Ball / Knock Off

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Spikes
- Giga Drain / Rest
- Sludge Bomb / Rest
- Toxic Spikes

Hide

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Rock Slide

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 152 SDef
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Scald

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Defog
- Roost

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

Drapion @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SDef / 44 Spd
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Toxic Spikes
- Whirlwind

Aromatisse @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy

 

[Bloo]

I was given a team consisting of Rhyperior / Weezing / Drapion / Aromatisse / Slowking / Bronzong by Hot N Cold. This is the stall team I used for the entirety of my RU suspect test run yesterday.

I think the team performed remarkably well against the majority of teams I encountered. The main reason the team performed as well as it did for me is, in my opinion, because of the Toxic Spikes provided by Weezing, which I'd say is quite an underrated Pokemon in this metagame, checking things like Doublade, Escavalier and Hitmonlee relatively well while being generally effective at setting up Toxic Spikes.

Many of the offensive teams I encountered were vulnerable to Toxic Spikes because of their use of popular threats like Sharpedo, Jolteon and Zoroark to name a few. Those three Pokemon, along with the numerous other offensive ones in the tier, are really put on a time limit with the damage they can dish out once poisoned by a layer of Toxic Spikes, allowing me to intelligently pivot around and stall with Wish & Protect until said Pokemon faint, or shuffle things around with Roar and Dragon Tail with Rhyperior and Slowking respectively, spreading residual damage and slowly wearing down the opposing team.

One of the reasons I'd say Toxic Spikes is so good (besides the ubiquity of offensive teams and many of the Pokemon in said offensive teams being vulnerable to the hazard) is because the good Rapid Spin users in the tier are affected by them, mainly Hitmonlee and Hitmontop. Once poisoned, they can't really repeatedly come in to remove the hazard, especially the former since it commonly uses Life Orb, wearing it down really quickly. The only other Rapid Spin Pokemon I came across was Claydol, who I typically statused with Toxic from Bronzong or played Knock Off vs. Pursuit mindgames against with Drapion. Even if my opponent was able to Rapid Spin away my Toxic Spikes at some point during the match, around half of their team would already be induced with poison before their spinner had a chance to blow my hazards away, and that's all I needed to wear them down little by little. Playing against Defog users is trickier, but typically I statused Gligar with Bronzong's Toxic and scared it away with Slowking. With Golbat, I usually had to rely on Slowking's Scald as a way to status the thing, or Drapion's Knock Off to remove its Eviolite and enable me to damage it a bit more than I normally could with my attacks.

Speaking of Rapid Spin and Defog, the team I mentioned has neither, which may lead people to think that the centerpiece of this suspect test, Froslass, would be troublesome. On the contrary, I didn't experience much trouble with her because of the presence of Scarf Drapion. I usually led with Scarf Drapion to limit Froslass to one layer and call it a day. There was a time where Cursed Body activated as I attacked with Drapion, giving Froslass the chance to lay down 3 layers; however, I was able to come back from this instance because of Toxic Spikes wearing down my opponents offenses before they were able to wear down my defenses. Aside from this, Scarf Drapion functioned as a method of absorbing opposing Toxic Spikes, surprise killing certain threats, and keeping Reuniclus, Delphox, Gothorita and Meloetta at bay, all of which are extremely threatening for this stall and others alike. It's a really effective Pokemon for stall teams to use given how many of those dangerous Psychics it keeps at bay.

Unlike more offensive teams, the stall team I used from Hot N Cold hardly minded facing Shuckle Sticky Web teams, the other team archetype in the spotlight right now. I would usually lead with Weezing for a quick layer, followed by a switch to Rhyperior for Stealth Rock. Within two turns, I would have 2 layers up and a timer ticking for the opposing team unless they had a grounded poison like Dragalge to absorb Toxic Spikes. Since the team I used was defensive and slow all around, it didn't mind the speed drop from Sticky Web much.

Stall versus stall match-ups were a lot more complicated with the team I used, but I won't go into that here! All in all, I found stall to be very effective from my one day laddering experience yesterday, and the main contributor to this was Toxic Spikes. I imagine more teams will become prepared for Toxic Spikes as the metagame develops and people catch on to the hazard becoming common, but that's only natural. Unless you're CrashinBoomBang and share a genetically built in hatred for using stall, I encourage everyone to give the style a try in this offensively dominated tier because it's quite effective! Threats such as Calm Mind Reuniclus, Meloetta, Gothorita and Delphox are threatening to stall, but with a good build, they can definitely be taken care of.

If Froslass goes, I can definitely see stall becoming more common and things like Bulk Up + Substitute Braviary becoming more common alongside the other stall threats I mentioned before (Delphox, etc) to combat the style. I look forward to seeing how the metagame develops and the countermeasures people come up with for stall, as well as how stall players adapt to these countermeasures.

You guys have a cool tier and I had fun playing RU for the day that I did. I look forward to playing it in the Grand Slam and will be keeping an eye on this forum to learn more about the metagame as it grows! Props to Hot N Cold again for the team and getting me into the tier, and to Molk for discussing various strategies the other day to give me a wider perspective of what cool things there are to use out there.

EDIT: I've already written enough, but Knock Off was also quite annoying for the stall I used to face considering it removed Leftovers from most of my Pokemon, requiring me to play extra carefully against certain things to prevent myself from getting worn down too easily. While not being a Pokemon, that's one move that is rather common and uniquely bothersome for stall in this tier.

 

[Not Canadian]

Not even having used stall myself (or Sticky Web / Froslass HO for that matter) on my way to requirements, I can attest to the effectivity of stall especially with T-Spikes, seeing as Alomomola toxic-stalling my opponent would often decide one-on-one matchups late-game. Bulky son of a bitch.

Having used a fairly generic HO + Alomomola pivot team (Rhyperior - Alomomola - Virizion / Doublade - Moltres - Hitmonlee - Combusken / Sharpedo), I observed several fascinating things on the ladder: Trick Room, despite its effectiveness against Sticky Web HO, was not all that common, and stall, despite overall trumping HO match-ups like Bloo has described above, was practically non-existent; everything was HO in some way, shape, or form. There were a few odd things like rain, but not very noteworthy IMO. (also Baton Pass sweeping with Combusken is fun and you should try it sometime)

On a more suspect-related note, the sheer lack of Froslass on the ladder was both baffling and extremely irritating. When I did find the odd player using Froslass, they misused it so badly that at times I was going 6-5 against someone who hadn't even set a layer of Spikes.

But as people here have already pointed out, the reason for this is likely the prevalence of Shuckle, which excelled at Sticky Web and SR set-up simply because it was so damned impossible to OHKO unless you had gotten something like 4+ hits on Band Rhyperior. This was not fun at all -- all it did was exacerbate speed match-ups and God help you if you couldn't get your spinner in safely. Supposing that we suspect Shuckle or something similar soon, I would agree to kick it out wholeheartedly. Shuckle isn't the point of this suspect though, isn't it?

Moving on. Froslass is a massive 50-50 fest, yes, and while I was lucky enough to win most of those coin tosses, shifting momentum greatly toward my favor, that doesn't change the fact that it's a bloody mess to deal with. An effective player (mind you, not the ELO hell people I played) could easily outplay into three layers and then Destiny Bond, punishing switches badly unless you have say, Claydol or Gligar.

It's no good. Froslass will have to go, and hopefully Shuckle soon after, as it's likely to become the centerpiece of RU when the iceloli gets the boot.

 

[mallpal]

having played both with and against tspikes stall on the ladder, i'd agree that it is very effective against the more common offensive archetypes running around atm. i resorted to running multiple steels and zangoose on my webs team, actually, and i still ended up losing to pif

 

[greengrappler]

Wait.. Correct me if I am wrong, but are we considering banning Froslass for a fast destiny bond, but not mega Bannette for priority D-bond?

 

[Ununhexium]

Wait.. Correct me if I am wrong, but are we considering banning Froslass for a fast destiny bond, but not mega Bannette for priority D-bond?

We are considering banning Froslass because it can also set up Spikes in front of the entire tier.

EDIT: Destiny Bond is an added bonus :)

 

[Honko]

Froslass is very good but not egregiously broken in this meta, but I do think she is a poor influence and the meta will be better with her gone so I will be voting ban.

Shuckle is unquestionably broken and I hope we can proceed with a test of it very quickly once Froslass's test is done. I feel strongly that the next test should be of Shuckle, not Sticky Web as a move. The other potential Sticky Web users are all counterable the same way most other hazard leads are. The playstyle would not be nearly as dominant when you can't even consistently set up webs once, let alone webs + SR with one Pokemon. I think Sticky Web without Shuckle would be a healthy option to keep in the metagame as an alternative form of offense that checks "normal" offense well. Maybe I'll turn out to be wrong and webs is broken even without Shuckle, but I think we should focus on Shuckle first and then see how the meta settles once it's gone.

How do you guys deal with Zoroark? I find it to be the scariest Pokemon to see in my opponent's team preview. Illusion obviously brings a lot of 50/50s into play early in the match, but even putting Illusion aside it's a very unpredictable Pokemon that can run almost any type of offensive set you can think of, and outside of Aromatisse I can't think of anything that can really switch into it safely.

 

[DinaIsha]

I agree Toxic Stall is very good in this Meta. In fact, I considered it in my RU team, which is entirely based on placing SR + 3 spikes, preventing Rapid Spin/Defog, wearing down the opponent and then sweeping in the end. Toxic Spikes can very well find a spot there. I just figured Poison types are abundantly used and Toxic Spikes are easily removed.

 

[EonX]

Ok, guess I'll post my thoughts about everything now that I got reqs.

So, Froslass is insanely good in this meta. While Froslass isn't overpowering stuff on her own anytime soon, she's allowing other Pokemon to really wear down stuff that's supposed to check or counter them. The only way Stall can work is through the use of Toxic Spikes as it will wear down most offensive teams fast enough before your defenses whither away to Spikes. I will emphasize, however, that you should only use 1 layer of Toxic Spikes as most offensive threats found on Spikestacking and Web Offense teams won't be staying in for more than 3 turns. In fact, I faced Bloo 2 or 3 times as we were both laddering to make reqs yesterday, and even though I won once, I will admit that it was due to a pretty simple error he made with Zoroark (it was disguised as Doublade, got poisoned, and he didn't catch on fast enough. Happens to the best of us, even Bloo) but the point stands that a well built Stall team with Toxic Spikes is really good. That said, this is the only way Stall can work right now imo and this is largely to do with Froslass. As I've said before, I view Froslass as a more passive version of Nidoqueen from BW2, in that she makes it very hard for Stall teams to exist without one or two certain Pokemon (or in this case, a certain type of support in Toxic Spikes) I likely will be voting to ban it, and before people start saying that Froslass isn't common on the ladder right now, let me get to my next point.

So, a lot of people are saying Shuckle is even more messed up than Froslass. To this, I can't agree. At least not yet. Sticky Web wasn't nearly as common before the suspect test for Froslass started. So, why did it gain popularity so fast? Because it fucks any Lass Offense team that doesn't use Yanmega or Sharpedo (seriously, you should be using at least one of them anyway, if not both) Now, I'm not going to sit here and say that Web Offense isn't super strong in the meta right now, because it is. I used a Web Offense team for my ladder run, and even though I don't particularly like high offense teams, it was crazy easy to get reqs. Now, I think one of the big reasons people are so butthurt about Web Offense is that it fucks Lass Offense, a playstyle so many people were used to using. It's called adapting people. I did it, so can you. Aside from this though, I don't see the existence of Web Offense being a legit reason to keep Froslass in the tier when the biggest reason that Web Offense rose to prominence in the first place is because of Froslass. If you run Stall (w/o T-Spikes) TR, or defensive balance, you're screwed against Froslass teams. However, these are also the best teams to use against Web Offense, so have fun picking which style you're going to be at a serious disadvantage against.

TL;DR Lass is crazy good even though she isn't that common. T-Spikes Stall is the only legit Stall imo. I likely will vote to ban Lass. Web Offense rose mainly due to the Lass suspect test. It may still be broken after Lass leaves, but that's why we have suspect tests after the tier stabilizes from a ban.

 

[Pidge]

Even if you prepare for Froslass, it is quite hard to play against it. If your anti-Froslass Pokemon requires two turns, like Doublade or a Scarf 'mon, Froslass can switch out and hope to come back in later to get a second Spike or be annoying with Destiny Bond. You also start off with a hazard, while your opponent doesn't; on a heavy offense team, your opponent will find it hard to clear this hazard and/or get his/her own up. Leading with something like Rock Blast Rhyperior (who could die to Destiny Bond) or Cincinno could be your best bet. However, Froslass does not necessarily have to lead. If you see one of those 'mons, you can still send Froslass later and manage 2+ layers or 1+ layer and Destiny Bond shenanigans if you play carefully enough.

Also the Froslass against Froslass lead matchup is pretty lame. The winner of the Taunt speed tie will start off with a big enough advantage to probably decide the game. That's probably not healthy for the tier.

 

[termi]

For the people who still need reqs, use either one of these 2 teambuilds:

Froslass - Sharpedo - Hitmonlee - Doublade/Mega Banette - Rhyperior/Druddigon/Cobalion (smth with SR, basically) - Fast, hard hitter (I use Jolteon, for example)

Shuckle - Hitmonlee - Doublade/Mega Banette - Exploud/Zangoose - LO Braviary - filler (CM Delphox, SD Cobalion/Virizion, Specs Yanmega, SD Drapion, whatever)

These teambuilds are easy to use for anyone and unless you suck terribly you should be able to get reqs with it. Good luck ;o

Oh and in case you didn't realize, yes this is another way to say "holy shit the meta has become stale".

Post on Tspikes stall will follow someday coz I discovered that it is godly for people who typically prefer stall over offense (like me!)

 

[DinaIsha]

For the people who still need reqs, use either one of these 2 teambuilds:

Froslass - Sharpedo - Hitmonlee - Doublade/Mega Banette - Rhyperior/Druddigon/Cobalion (smth with SR, basically) - Fast, hard hitter (I use Jolteon, for example)

Shuckle - Hitmonlee - Doublade/Mega Banette - Exploud/Zangoose - LO Braviary - filler (CM Delphox, SD Cobalion/Virizion, Specs Yanmega, SD Drapion, whatever)

These teambuilds are easy to use for anyone and unless you suck terribly you should be able to get reqs with it. Good luck ;o

Oh and in case you didn't realize, yes this is another way to say "holy shit the meta has become stale".

Post on Tspikes stall will follow someday coz I discovered that it is godly for people who typically prefer stall over offense (like me!)

Be warned though, the first team loses to the second. The number of Shuckles on the ladder is too damn high.

 

[EonX]

This is something I really forgot to talk about, but I discovered what could possibly be a hidden gem for many teams looking to stop Web Offense and Froslass offense with at least decent reliability: Rotom-C

So, I've seen people talk about how Yanmega, Fletchinder, and other Flying / Levitating Pokemon can be devastating for Web Offense teams to face down, but I think Rotom-C is even more dangerous. Just taking the typical Web Offense build that Robert Alfons posted a couple of posts above, look at the switch-ins such a team has. (I'll give you a hint: There are none) Rotom-C, imo, p. much necessitates the use of Magneton or Jolteon on Web Offense teams, as otherwise, you're probably losing a mon every time it comes in. Against Spikes offense, Rotom-C's Scarf set can do some serious work as well. Pair it with Doublade, and this will keep Froslass to a single layer w/ no Destiny Bond (honestly, about the best you can do rn, which is kinda sad) and it revenges just about every offensive threat that Froslass teams use, bar Speed Boost Yanmega (needs to be Timid, or else!) It's one of the reasons I decided to put Jolteon on my Web Offense team since, between it, Braviary, and Doublade, I at least made Rotom-C think about the STAB move it used. I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen Rotom-C more considering how well it fares with and against the common teambuilds right now. Maybe I'm just not viewing it correctly right now, but it kinda seems like Rotom-C is that sort of anti-meta Pokemon right now that offensive teams can use. Thoughts and experiences with and against our favorite little lawn mower?

 

[Bughouse]

Toxic Spikes is indeed a godsend on Stall and keeps it viable and even godly when it gets the right matchup. But it is hardly the easiest playstyle to use right now and requires a good amount of skill. Meanwhile, the more offensive teams can adapt pretty easily by using a Drapion which really hurts Stall pretty bad. Not to mention staples of Offensive teams like Cobalion, Yanmega, Moltres, Braviary, Doublade, Fletchinder, and Magneton don't even get affected. I don't think the rise of stall that several good players have demonstrated takes anything away from the predominance of offense. Froslass is the root of this problem.

 

[TROP]

Hitmonlee is the only pokemon that should be banned.

Everything else is just being defended with buzzwords for ban what I don't like.

 

[DinaIsha]

Toxic Spikes is indeed a godsend on Stall and keeps it viable and even godly when it gets the right matchup. But it is hardly the easiest playstyle to use right now and requires a good amount of skill.

That can be made a point for any kind of team. "Shuckle is very good, but it can't stop defog. It requires skill to make Shuckle Offense work". "Trick Room teams are very viable in RU, but are beaten easily by Stall teams. A good playstyle is require to win with them." Stall being easy or not easy is dependent on one's team. If most of the teams a Stall player faces have Rapid Spin users instead of Defoggers, they can be easily given a hard time with Doublade. Even if they do have a Defogger, they're heavily crippled by Status/Knock Off, then just as well, they're ready to set up Spikes again. The reason Stall teams are so effective is that they do not aim to 'sweep' or 'break' anything, but simply take them down with Status/Phazing/Taunting/Knock Off. Regenerators always find their way into Stall teams and so does Aloomolola, and the less likely Aromatisse, all of whom are capable of taking multiple hits, recovering the HP of not only themselves, but their teammates as well, who will once again repeat the Status/Phazing etc., cycle.

tldr: I agree that Stall teams require good teambuilding. They do not require 'a good amount of skill'. It requires only the amount of skill that enables a player to correctly predict the opponent's switches and throw in the Poke that can tank its hits (In fact, many Regenerators are good pivots).

 

[Magnemite]

Might as well post my thoughts here since I just got reqs. There's not too much to say about Froslass that hasn't been covered extensively already, but I'd like to touch upon one thing that has been mentioned but not in too much detail: just how stale Froslass and Shuckle are making the meta. Once I got decently high on the ladder, at least 7/10 teams were either Froslass HO or Shuckle HO. Suspect laddering was really weird experience because it felt like I was just playing the same 2-3 matchups over and over again with a huge lack of variety. Obviously, since this is a suspect ladder and most people just using cookie cutter teams to get reqs quickly, this shouldn't be all that surprising, but this suspect ladder was much more like that than most. Froslass and Shuckle alone are making the meta more centralized and boring than any two Pokemon in any meta I've ever played before. Other team styles are certainly voable, but it's hard to justify any other team style being as good as these two. These teams certainly have their weaknesses, specfically things like Toxic Spikes and fast Fire-types, but it isn't all that hard for them to adapt to these threats since all that these teams need to be successful is their respective leads, Doublade, and Hitmonlee (these two mons are literally on like every team that isn't stall), so they have space to adapt easily. The ability of Froslass and Shuckle to not only set and keep their hazards up so easily but also to completely wrap the meta around them makes them both very negative influences on the development of the RU metagame, and therefore, makes them easily banworthy. (ps i know this was supposed to be about only froslass but shuckle is broken for very similar reasons and everyone else is talking about it so I included it in my post too)

tl;dr froslass and shuckle are ruining the metagame, ban pls

 

[Bagon]

So I just got reqs so I figured I would post my thoughts. I do not think Lass should be banned because I think it is pretty easy. Basically what I do to beat it is lead with a fast U turn or Volt switch user, and bring in Doublade to finish it off. Then just bring in a defogger and its like Froslass was never even there. This is just my experience and adaptation. Early on I was having trouble, but now I just never worry about it. Onto shuckle, however, I think this needs to go. Sticky web provides immense pressure and allows hard hitters like exploud to tear through teams. Not to mention Shuckle is very hard to take out, and if its hazards are spun away it can come back in easily and set them up once again.

 

[termi]

Honestly too many people are basing their opinion on the battles they've played, but a well-played Froslass by a good user is so much harder to control. A good user won't always lead with it and a good user won't always make the play you think he'll make, in the right hands Froslass is way overpowered but too many people have seen it maybe three or four times on the ladder in the hands of average players and therefor assume it's not broken. Maybe it'd be a good idea to provide some replays so we can see how Froslass is supposed to be used.

 

[Not Canadian]

So I just got reqs so I figured I would post my thoughts. I do not think Lass should be banned because I think it is pretty easy. Basically what I do to beat it is lead with a fast U turn or Volt switch user, and bring in Doublade to finish it off. Then just bring in a defogger and its like Froslass was never even there. This is just my experience and adaptation. Early on I was having trouble, but now I just never worry about it. Onto shuckle, however, I think this needs to go. Sticky web provides immense pressure and allows hard hitters like exploud to tear through teams. Not to mention Shuckle is very hard to take out, and if its hazards are spun away it can come back in easily and set them up once again.

The problem with this being that IMO that's a bit too specific of a team set-up, and while I don't deny that it can certainly work, by nature other team archetypes may be less-suited to deal with Froslass — and if Froslass gets through just once, it can often be too much pressure on the opponent to regain momentum. I know we throw around the term "50/50" in here a lot, but it describes our situation very well: teams unlike yours can and will be forced into torturous mindgames which they will lose without essentially-perfect play.

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that Froslass is too much a strain on teambuilding as it is.

Agree with you on Shuckle though. I think it's in around the same position as Froslass.

 

[EonX]

So I just got reqs so I figured I would post my thoughts. I do not think Lass should be banned because I think it is pretty easy. Basically what I do to beat it is lead with a fast U turn or Volt switch user, and bring in Doublade to finish it off. Then just bring in a defogger and its like Froslass was never even there. This is just my experience and adaptation. Early on I was having trouble, but now I just never worry about it. Onto shuckle, however, I think this needs to go. Sticky web provides immense pressure and allows hard hitters like exploud to tear through teams. Not to mention Shuckle is very hard to take out, and if its hazards are spun away it can come back in easily and set them up once again.

This is great, but what if the Froslass user doesn't lead with Froslass? Personally, I'm not going to lead with Froslass if / when I identify a fast Volt Switch / U-turn user, such as Jolteon, or possible Scarf users like Rotom-C, Heliolisk (sucks btw) or Braviary (opportunity cost...) As soon as you bring in a Rocks setter, that's when I would send out Froslass. Then what? Your VS / U-turn user isn't on the field and then it's the whole 50/50 game, only it isn't turn 1 anymore and just later in the match.

Fact of the matter is, everyone thinks that Froslass is just going to lead. It won't. Yes, 90% of the time, Froslass will lead. The other 10% of the time, it won't due to there being something that quite obviously is going to be led with to stop it from doing anything. While this could be over-exaggerating things a bit, the point is that Froslass doesn't have to lead, especially if the opponent has something like Cinccino (lead with Cobalion, duh) a fast Volt Switch or U-turn user, or a Prankster Taunt user. (Cobalion kills most of them...) So long as Froslass is on the field at some point (first 3-5 turns ideally) without taking any damage, it's going to create the same 50/50 plays that it would if it led off the match. Guess right, you avert disaster. Guess wrong (which you usually will against a good player) well... good luck, you'll need it.

Shuckle is annoying af, yes. But I still am of the mindset that it's so ubiquitous because of Froslass in the first place. And like I said, if Web Offense is still too much for the tier, then I'm sure it'll get suspected, just like Froslass has.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Hitmonlee is the only pokemon that should be banned.

Everything else is just being defended with buzzwords for ban what I don't like.

nononono trop the meme is that you want drudd banned not hitmonlee pls stick to the memes

 

[Mr12000]

HAY GUISE
I think the objective of the Suspect Ladder was for us to center our teambuilding and battling on Froslass. What I saw was a majority of three teams:
1. Froslass teams. Froslass encourages its users to go the full offensive way with a lead that always manages to get one of all of its jobs done (Spikes, Destiny Bond, Ice Beam something weak, Cursed Body anything that does not OHKO) and then it lets the rest of the team enter and destroy. I have faced many of those teams and the ones that are actually good have one important member alongside Froslass, which is nothing else than Doublade. Froslass is stoppable, yes, but you also need to think of its partners. My current team has a response for Froslass, which is priority Technitop, but that thing can not deal with Doublade, because base 150 defenses + Eviolite is kinda too hard to break. But either way. The idea is to destroy Froslass first and then remove hazards with Rapid Spin or Defog. Rapid Spin gets completely blocked by Doublade (And Hitmonlee would be the only reliable answer to this situation, as it has access to Knock Off), while Defog can boost Braviary attack or Meowstic-F special attack. Okay, this can be done by most hazard setters in tandem with a ghost type. What makes Froslass any different? Froslass by itself has an Ice Beam capable of beating Gligar in one shot and doing hard stuff to Golbat, given it is not specially defensive. It also has a Ghost typing, meaning it can block Rapid Spin on its own. It has Destiny Bond to cripple something else once the moment has come (And Focus Sash to make sure it will happen). Building a team centered on beating this thing and the support it gives is a real challenge.
2. Sticky Web teams with Shuckle. A whole answer to Froslass teams is to send something that can get Sticky Web on the field for sure (Sturdy + Mental Herb Shuckle) and then go bulky offense with stuff that does not even need that much thought, as only coverage is needed to make sure that even the toughest walls can be broken given the proper requirements, such as breaking Focus Sash (Other hazards) and outspeeding certain Pokemon when they try to restore HP and stall (Again, Sticky Web). Doublade, once again, finds itself very fond of this style. Sticky Web lets Doublade outspeed certain slow Pokemon when... what I just said. The Rapid Spin/Defog situation repeats itself.
3. Teams that did not bother with any of those styles. My teams fit in this category. I use a Stall team, although I have seen other teams being balanced, Trick Room, semi Stall... something these styles share are that they do not care about Sticky Web and can certainly manage to work Froslass around. But a metagame is not healthy when the most popular styles (Offensive ones) are defined by the presence of Pokemon such as Froslass and Shuckle. I enjoy playing Stall, as I build my teams from a defensive focus, but it would be selfish to laugh to myself and watch others be forced to use a Pokemon that is deemed powerful enough to make its users feel guilty about it.
If you ask me, I would rather suggest complex bans (Froslass + Doublade, Shuckle + Doublade) than ban the suspect test. Or, why do we not just test Doublade? Even though we all know what it does, we also know that it is unlikely going to be put down soon unless you have UBER AWESOME SKILL (And also that the opponent does not). I have written a lot on this subject and I find it to be very subjective, but it is what I saw of RU in this ladder thingy. Most of it says that I should vote for the ban on Froslass, but I will not. Instead, I would like you people to read this, agree or disagree, and vote. I am just leaving the complex bans proposal in case someone seems to agree with me.