Metagame NP: RU Stage 1: Dog Days Are Over / Hello Kitty

[EonX]

I'm glad that you brought up Life Orb Braviary The Leprechaun , because I believe it to be the best Braviary set right now. So, just when you thought it was safe to bring in that Rock or Steel-type to prevent that supposed CB Braviary from tearing everything up with a Defog boost, it takes 10% damage from using it's attack... what should set in after that? Absolute horror. This set is extremely effective on Web Offense since the Speed drop lets it sweep, but it also takes advantage of Spikes to rampage through things without the Defiant boost. The only 2 OHKOes you miss out on are Alomomola (still a solid 75% chance) and Gligar (still an outside chance) Combine this with the ability to switch moves, and LO Braviary becomes incredibly potent. The only real problem with LO Braviary is the insane amounts of recoil it's going to be taking between Brave Bird and LO, but you have Roost to fix this up a little bit.
I know the main topic in this thread should be Froslass, but I just wanted to take some time to bring up what is quite possibly the most terrifying thing to have to face down on a Web Offense team as it will put your team in a no-win situation. Use Defog so you can attempt to outspeed Braviary, or deny the easy +2 boost and let it outspeed virtually every grounded Pokemon in the tier?

 

[-Tsunami-]

With all of the recent complaints about Froslass, and the imminent threat of the devastating Froslass + Doublade core employed by Molk and others utilizing his broken team, I figured it was about time to create an answer to stop this core. At first, the challenge looks daunting, but a user on the ladder inspired me with a creative set that devastates this core. Let me introduce you, ladies and gentlemen, to the legendary SING CINCINNO.

Cinccino @ King's Rock
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
-Tail Slap
-Rock Blast
-U-Turn / Bullet Seed / Knock Off
-SING

Now, you may be questioning the legitimacy of running a 55% accurate move in the metagame, but for those like me who forget, Doublade has a pretty terrible ability for a Pokemon of its nature in No Guard. This means that all of those Froslass users who think that Doublade can safely come into Cincinno without any fears at all will be awestruck by a move which cripples their Pokemon for the remainder of the match. All that is needed to be able to run this move is forfeiting the ability to use Bullet Seed, which, in general, is not too big of a loss since Rhyperior will not usually try their luck against Cincinno regardless, and if they do, they can live the hit and KO Cincinno back regardless. There is also the option of putting Rhyperior to sleep with Sing if one is willing to try their luck, but that is another matter. Regardless, this set will definitely ease the burden on users unfortunate to face the ever prevalent Froslass-Doublade core, especially with Cincinno's access to U-Turn allowing it to gain a great deal of momentum against the opposition.

As a side note, I still believe Froslass is broken. Originally, I did not believe this was the case, but it truly centralizes the metagame along with Sticky Web, which is something I've been wanting to ban for over a month now, and it truly is a lot more difficult to get off a Defog / Rapid Spin than it seems to be at first.

 

[jjoshcja]

Man I love how objective Expulso's commentation on lass was, totaly unbiased.

Played lass HO for like a billion games, ran into a billion web teams, stall teams, and just plain weird shit. Was unimpressed with lass to the point where it got dropped from pretty much all my teams sans one that ran bulky lass. Thats not to say the team did badly, offense does pretty damn well as of now, Lass just felt like a nonfactor unless it got straight hax with cursed body.

While lass is an amazing spike stacker, spike stack HO just feels underwhelming when compared to the speed control offense (Web/TR/Para support) teams running around currently.

 

[Davon]

froslass should definitely get the boot. with the threat of destiny bond it constantly causes switches, and I think people should consider thunder wave over destiny bond. some common ways to get rid of thunder wave-less froslass is through fast mons or even scarfers, and if you can paralyze their scarfer you gain a bunch of momentum in your favor.

a replay utilizing thunder wave froslass: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-129208774
I make a risky play, but a common poke that likes to kill froslass nice and quick is sharpedo. if you paralyze it it can help your team a whole bunch cuz sharpedo demolishes offense. if youre lucky you can also get parahax and setup more spikes.

 

[g]

After playing Froslass extensively i can say it is definitely unhealthy for the metagame.
You might say it is manageable or something like that but in the hands of a good player it can set up 1-2 layers of spikes AND take out a mon. It forces multiple 50/50 that make dealing with it a mere game of chances. Froslass teams have also skyrocket the popularity of Sticky Web (that has a really good matchup against them) showing how unhealthy and centralizing Froslass is. Spikes are also surprisingly easy to mantain as we have awesome Spinblockers like Doublade and Banette that force the opponent to use Defog and potentially give something dangerous like Braviary an Attack boost.

 

[Mr.378]

After laddering and playing the RU tier, I feel as if I understand Froslass and its place in the metagame.


Froslass, while an amazing lead and support pokémon, is not the greatest right now in the tier. In this metagame Shuckle, and the Sticky Webs it brings, are. The support that it and its webs can bring to an offensive team are incredible, and support and make a lot of offensive threats like Hitmonlee, Exploud, Zangoose, and others a lot more threatening to teams. The best part of Shuckle is how unstoppable it is at doing its job. The mental Herb, along with its great bulk, essentially guarantee that sticky webs can be set up. The only way to consistently prevent sticky webs from being set up is by using Xatu. Otherwise, the only way of dealing with sticky web once it is up requires either one to use their own sticky web team, which is over centralization, or to spin or defog against them. Both of which offer the problem of being passive plays against an offensive team, along with the fact that rapid spin can be blocked with one of the ghost types that get brought on the standard sticky web team. With all of this in mind, one can see that Shuckle is the best lead and support pokémon in the tier, and that sticky web is an over centralizing force.


That being said, Shuckle is not the item up for suspect here, but merely a point of comparison. The real item here is Froslass and, while it may not be able to offer the same degree of support that Shuckle may bring, it is still a supportive powerhouse that is an over centralizing lead for different reasons. Whereas Shuckle is granted impunity to taunt by one turn due to its mental herb, Froslass is granted a better one by its amazing speed and its own taunt. At an amazing Base 110, it is the fastest taunt user in the tier and can shut down any opposing support lead or counter taunt users that can hinder its spike staking. Unalike Shuckle, Xatu and its magic bounce cannot prevent this due to being out sped and killed by its STAB ice beam. Froslass, while it does not have the support capabilities of Shuckle, has offensive ones to make up for it. It even has focus sash destiny bond to take down any slower pokémon that may kill it, and the list of pokémon that out sped or can use priority on it is quite limited. It also has its ghost typing, which allows it to spin block its own hazards. This is threatening on its own because it leaves very few ways to eliminate its spikes against it given that most defog users are of the flying type and slower than Froslass.


Sorry for being a bit muddled here, but I think that these two pokémon are somewhat related in what they can do. They have similarities in the role they play, but they bring something different to it. Whereas Shuckle is better at being supportive by lending more hazards and being bulkier, Froslass is less supportive but harder to stop and more offensive. It reminds me of The two Deoxys forms in Ou, but exaggerated in their differences. At any rate, both are centralizing leads in this metagame, but Froslass is the one we are suspecting. So I believe that it should be sent to BL2.

 

[MikeDawg]

Man I love how objective Expulso's commentation on lass was, totaly unbiased.

Played lass HO for like a billion games, ran into a billion web teams, stall teams, and just plain weird shit. Was unimpressed with lass to the point where it got dropped from pretty much all my teams sans one that ran bulky lass. Thats not to say the team did badly, offense does pretty damn well as of now, Lass just felt like a nonfactor unless it got straight hax with cursed body.

While lass is an amazing spike stacker, spike stack HO just feels underwhelming when compared to the speed control offense (Web/TR/Para support) teams running around currently.

Keep in mind though that the suspect ladder isn't particularly indicative of the real ladder.

Since frosslass is the suspect, it is heavily centralized around beating frosslass

 

[chimpact]

With all of the recent complaints about Froslass, and the imminent threat of the devastating Froslass + Doublade core employed by Molk and others utilizing his broken team, I figured it was about time to create an answer to stop this core. At first, the challenge looks daunting, but a user on the ladder inspired me with a creative set that devastates this core. Let me introduce you, ladies and gentlemen, to the LEGENDALY SING CINCINNO.

Cincinno @ King's Rock
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
-Tail Slap
-Rock Blast
-U-Turn / Bullet Seed / Knock Off
-SING

How about you spell cinccino correctly so i can import the set onto showdown you savage.

Now, you may be questioning the legitimacy of running a 55% accurate move in the metagame, but for those like me who forget, Doublade has a pretty terrible ability for a Pokemon of its nature in No Guard. This means that all of those Froslass users who think that Doublade can safely come into Cincinno without any fears at all will be awestruck by a move which cripples their Pokemon for the remainder of the match. All that is needed to be able to run this move is forfeiting the ability to use Bullet Seed, which, in general, is not too big of a loss since Rhyperior will not usually try their luck against Cincinno regardless, and if they do, they can live the hit and KO Cincinno back regardless. There is also the option of putting Rhyperior to sleep with Sing if one is willing to try their luck, but that is another matter. Regardless, this set will definitely ease the burden on users unfortunate to face the ever prevalent Froslass-Doublade core, especially with Cincinno's access to U-Turn allowing it to gain a great deal of momentum against the opposition.

must be nice having to be luckitup and never missing :[[[

 

[DinaIsha]

Suspect Reqirement

I'll just say I'd much rather see Shuckle (Or the combination of Sticky Web + Shuckle) go than Froslass. But it looks like the mob mentality is to doom Froslass to BL2 again (It was already BL for a good part of BW).

 

[atomicllamas]

Just to clarify this, this is not the thread in which you post that you have met the reqs of 2400 coil, that will be put up a little later in the week.

I also just wanted to post that the council is aware of how common sticky web teams have become, and how effective they are in the current meta game and some variation of it will be the next suspect. However, many posts in this thread have been focusing on how broken webs are and some have even gone so far as to state that Froslass is not broken by comparison. I would one, like to remind people that one thing being more broken than something else does not make that other thing not broken, and two, ask that discussion in this thread be more about the metagame trends. Sticky web has been indicated as something that is really good right now, so what have you been using to beat it? What pokemon do you find particularly effective because of webs? Most posts have been pretty good at doing this, and only a have been straight up complaining, so in that regard keep it up.

Anyways, for my thoughts on the meta game, I kinda talked about it in the viability thread, but I have found Jolteon to be a really good web abuser, and just good in the current meta in general, as its huge speed is very important in most web mirror matches (webs is essentially Shuckle / Hitmonlee / Doublade / Braviary / 2 fillers). Jolteon gets the jump on all of these assuming an adamant Braviary and does fun stuff like 2hko specs Magneton with Thunderbolt after rocks.

calc

252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 113-134 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I have found Fletchinder to be very annoying to deal with on webs teams as well, as it beats the main 4 in the core thanks to wisp and Acrobatics (needs to wear down Brav a bit), and is another reason Magneton is really good on webs teams. Fletchinder can be dealt with though, thanks to how hard Doublade makes it to spin, and defog just lets Brav get a free kill, and if you conserve Shuckle, it is able to reapply hazards against Fletch.

One mon I think that has been overlooked at the moment, but I think could be really good (theorymonning), is OTR Reuniclus, as it absolutely demolishes standard webs teams with TR + 3 attacks or even just Psychic + Shadow Ball. It can set up TR on Shuckle, but that does sort of waste turns wearing it down. Depending on the fillers on the opponents team it will be able to get off the TR with little problem.

 

[s_aman]

I have been using web offense on the suspect ladder and i am around 2100 currently. Haven't ladderred today because of powercut :-/
Anyways, what i wanted to say is that i am using web HO without Braviary and a scarfer. Shuckle / Doublade / hitmonlee / exploud / zangoose / jolteon. As llamas said, Jolteon is very handy in mirror matches. It also checks fletchinder (very underrated) pretty well and revenge kills a lot of things in a pinch as i don't have a scarfer. I also have 3 priority users, so most scarfers don't give me problems, except for may be Moltres. I mainly wanted to talk about priority. RU has a lot of priority abusers. Fletchinder, hitmons, kabutops, mega-bannette, baby crumbler, zangoose and sharpedo. Priority is very useful against opposing offensive teams. Most of the times, Jolteon and priority abusers are enough for revenge killing job for my team. Has anyone else tried something similar?

 

[DinaIsha]

Doublade is too strong for this tier, especially and not necessaily on Sticky Web teams. It can take any Physical Attack and dish out pain, while also KOing Special Attacker with +2 Priority Shadow Sneak. To make matters worse, all Special Attackers are Defensively lacking except very few things like Clawitzer.

 

[astromund]

Doublade is too strong for this tier, especially and not necessaily on Sticky Web teams. It can take any Physical Attack and dish out pain, while also KOing Special Attacker with +2 Priority Shadow Sneak. To make matters worse, all Special Attackers are Defensively lacking except very few things like Clawitzer.

lol

-The low base power of Doublade's moves lets it down, and without LO or a choice item backing it up base 110 attack suddenly becomes a lot less impressive. Yes you can set up an SD on some popular physical attackers and deal good damage to a few things, but +2 shadow sneak isn't OHKOing shit outside of Delphox and Gallade.
-It has a number of extremely safe switch-ins like Rotom-C, Moltres, Rhyperior and Escavalier, who can all tank multiple hits from Doublade and severely cripple it or kill it outright.
-Doublade's special bulk is subpar, it can't take more than one hit from most special attackers in the tier and it has no chance of beating prominent threats like Delphox, Zoroark or Heliolisk if they come in safely.
-Doublade has no recovery whatsoever. No passive recovery from leftovers, no healing moves outside of rest. The only option for restoring Doublade's lost health is with a wishpasser, which offensive teams (who greatly appreciate Doublade's ability as a spinblocker) often don't have room for. It's very prone to being worn down throughout the match, which makes its sky-high physical bulk somewhat harder to take advantage of.


Doublade is a great pokemon and easily the best spinblocker in the tier, but it has a number of flaws that hold it back. Please don't make terrible posts full of hyperbole about Doublade's supposed "brokenness"

 

[termi]

Doublade is too strong for this tier, especially and not necessaily on Sticky Web teams. It can take any Physical Attack and dish out pain, while also KOing Special Attacker with +2 Priority Shadow Sneak. To make matters worse, all Special Attackers are Defensively lacking except very few things like Clawitzer.

Main reason it is this good is because it's a staple on the best two playstyles around. With froslass getting the banhammer soon and with shuckle being a likely suspect candidate, blade will be more managable. Oh by the way, blade might be hard to outright KO, but he is easy as fuck to wear doen.

 

[DinaIsha]

Aromatisse, Alomomola, Licilicky etc., are there to support and heal/cure Dou and also face a huge lot of Special Attackers thrown their way. But yes, as Alfons said, we'll have to wait and see if it's still this powerful without Spikes/SW around. Doublade is definitely weak on the special side. But with Eviolite around, it can tank a hit or two. Here are some calculations:

Moltres vs Doublade

252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 254-302 (78.8 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 4 Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 178-211 (55.2 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Zoroark vs Doublade

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 237-281 (73.6 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 4 Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 426-502 (163.2 - 192.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(or)

+2 4 Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (89 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 315-372 (120.6 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Heliolisk vs Doublade

252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 142-168 (44 - 52.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

+2 4 Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 474-558 (178.1 - 209.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Magmortar vs Doublade

252+ SpA Magmortar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 230-272 (71.4 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 4 Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 228-268 (64.4 - 75.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 4 Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 130-154 (36.7 - 43.5%)

Jolteon vs Doublade

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 170-202 (52.7 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 4 Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 247-292 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And these calculations are assuming the fact that the Pokémon haven't taken any prior damage. If they have, some of the 2HKOs might very well turn into OHKOs.

 

[New Breed]

Molk is requesting me to post since he is lazy af but to address to your calcs DineshThePoet, Doublade is actually best off running Max Hp/Max Atk with 0 SpD in order to maximize overall bulk and power so tailoring the calcs to favour your opinion will not help your cause. Doublade is actually fairly easy to check in the tier with the set SD/Iron Head/Shadow Claw/Shadow Sneak being the most common and effective set in the tier atm. With that in mind from the calcs you posted Moltres, Zoroark and Magmortar all OHKO Doublade respectively regardless of whether they switch in on a Doublade SD or not. Meloetta, Exploud and Heliolisk are also all great checks to Doublade being able to switch in and kill or severly cripple Doublade to the point that it can't actually sweep however if they are running the less common Sacred Sword Exploud and Heliolisk do have to be careful. As for defensive checks 24 Spe Rhyperior, Scald Alomomola and Knock Off+Eq Gligar also serve as great ways of stopping Doublade.

I was actually one of the first main people hyping Doublade in the tier and whilst it is an amazing Pokemon atm it definitely has enough flaws in low Speed, Sdef and heavy reliance on Eviolite that stop it from being outright broken. Doublade is also not too difficult to wear down, I am aware that you mentioned being able to provide Wish support for Doublade but bringing potential partners of Pokemon into this is a slippery slope as the opposing team also gets 5 other mons to support his Doublade counter!!!!


los relevant calcs

Moltres vs Doublade

252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 530-627 (164.5 - 194.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 139-165 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

Magmortar vs Doublade

252+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 450-530 (139.7 - 164.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 178-210 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zoroark vs Doublade

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 374-445 (116.1 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 96-114 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Exploud vs Doublade

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 362-426 (112.4 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Exploud: 186-220 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO

Heliolisk vs Doublade

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 199-234 (61.8 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 215-253 (80.8 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meloetta vs Doublade

252+ SpA Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 222-262 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 332-392 (103.1 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 159-187 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

 

[Raiza]

Ok now that I achieved the requirements, with surprise since i'm not a really a ru appassionate battler, in fact I got some trouble to get them because I didn't know what sets were used for some pokémon, I'm gonna talk about my opinion on Froslass and a little bit about Jolteon's drop too.

I didn't face so many Froslass in the suspect ladder. I'm surprised and glad of this because Froslass is a really annoying pokémon when you're paired against it. As many people already said he's role is the Suicide-Lead mainly, and it's the best since the other options aren't really viable. Froslass can easily put 1/2 or in rare cases 3 layers of spikes on the field and sometimes get one of the opponent's pokémons down thanks to it's move Destiny Bond and his massive speed. So if you use this pokémon you can be in really good vantage since the beginning of the game with layers of spikes on and an opponent's pokémon dead. I think that's an unfair advantage because this strategy is, in the most of the cases, unstoppable, until the Froslass user does the wrong move. This tactic if right supported can give some troubles to the opponent and open some spaces for your sweeper and fortunately most of my opponents weren't capable to capitalize on it.
So for all these reasons i'm gonna vote to Ban Froslass from the RU Tier because it's extremely unhealty right now.

Jolteon is a really interesting and good pokémon from the UU Tier. Heliolisk can be a good option/replace for Jolteon since he has a better coverage. In my opinion the best set of Jolteon is the Choice Specs one, but the Life Orb set is good too. Choice Specs allows you to spam really big damages in the game and mantain the momentum with Volt Switch, but the thing that makes Jolteon really good is the 130 BASE SPEED which allows him to outspeed like almost everything on the tier and some low base speed scarf pokémons too. I prefer the Choice Specs set because with the Life Orb sometimes you lose too many HPs with the recoil of the item and if Stealth Rock or Spikes(hehe froslass) are placed on the field every switch-in can be a problem for Jolteon. I don't think it's broken btw.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I guess I'll give my thought here.

Anyways, like I'm pretty sure most people have said, Froslass (and Shuckle even moreso, though that's another story) is pretty centralizing. Froslass is such a great hazard layer like it has always been in generations past. Its great 110 Speed means it's outspeeding Cobalion, Delphox, and Zoroark and Spiking and/or Destiny Bonding on them, while its Ghost typing means that Rapid Spin users can't come in to Rapid Spin away the hazards its strewn on the battlefield. Its Ice-typing, while previously being somewhat of a liability, now gives it access to a STAB Ice Beam, meaning it can even put the hurt on common Defog users such as Gligar and Shiftry. It also has Taunt to prevent set up, opposing hazard stacking, and continual Defog use. What do all these points mean? It means that Froslass can reliably stack hazards match after match, and it's almost impossible to take down a Froslass while limiting the number of hazards it gets up and not losing one of your members to Destiny Bond. What's worse are teams that use both Froslass AND Shuckle, setting up multiple layers of hazards in order to allow Pokemon such as Hitmonlee to clean through teams with little to no trouble. Overall, I think this makes Froslass ban worthy, because it centralizes the metagame around Spike-stacking Offense, which just isn't something I'd like to see in RU.

Oh, and on a side note, I saw someone in this thread bring up how Fletchinder does well V Sticky Web, and I can say that from experience that is definitely true. You definitely need to use a Defog user with it, though, making Gligar / Shiftry / Skuntank almost mandatory teammates.

 

[chimpact]

been using a spdef restalk toxic/dtail druddigon and its been pretty effective on the ladder. With special ice STABs being limited to frosslass and the rare jynx, it don't need to worry about that weakness [there are so many steel types to cover the dragon weakness] and hidden power ice is just so weak, it's never a problem. with spikes support it can handle doublade pretty effectively with rough skin and iron head being a 3hko. it can take 2 iron heads and 1 sneak most of the time so you can restalk away the damage. if it wants to set up there's dragon tail etc. it's also pretty effective against fletchinder as it absorbs status and can always phaze it out if it wants to set up SD's.

i put it on my team cause i was so tired of grass types like tangrowth/amoongus, but it's usefulness is not limited to answering those. Solid status absorber imo.

 

[MikeDawg]

Just to clarify this, this is not the thread in which you post that you have met the reqs of 2400 coil, that will be put up a little later in the week.

I also just wanted to post that the council is aware of how common sticky web teams have become, and how effective they are in the current meta game and some variation of it will be the next suspect. However, many posts in this thread have been focusing on how broken webs are and some have even gone so far as to state that Froslass is not broken by comparison. I would one, like to remind people that one thing being more broken than something else does not make that other thing not broken, and two, ask that discussion in this thread be more about the metagame trends. Sticky web has been indicated as something that is really good right now, so what have you been using to beat it? What pokemon do you find particularly effective because of webs? Most posts have been pretty good at doing this, and only a have been straight up complaining, so in that regard keep it up.

Anyways, for my thoughts on the meta game, I kinda talked about it in the viability thread, but I have found Jolteon to be a really good web abuser, and just good in the current meta in general, as its huge speed is very important in most web mirror matches (webs is essentially Shuckle / Hitmonlee / Doublade / Braviary / 2 fillers). Jolteon gets the jump on all of these assuming an adamant Braviary and does fun stuff like 2hko specs Magneton with Thunderbolt after rocks.

calc

252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 113-134 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I have found Fletchinder to be very annoying to deal with on webs teams as well, as it beats the main 4 in the core thanks to wisp and Acrobatics (needs to wear down Brav a bit), and is another reason Magneton is really good on webs teams. Fletchinder can be dealt with though, thanks to how hard Doublade makes it to spin, and defog just lets Brav get a free kill, and if you conserve Shuckle, it is able to reapply hazards against Fletch.

One mon I think that has been overlooked at the moment, but I think could be really good (theorymonning), is OTR Reuniclus, as it absolutely demolishes standard webs teams with TR + 3 attacks or even just Psychic + Shadow Ball. It can set up TR on Shuckle, but that does sort of waste turns wearing it down. Depending on the fillers on the opponents team it will be able to get off the TR with little problem.

OTR reun is definitely fantastic atm against both webs and frosslass (due to magic guard). While it would like a bit of extra power against some bulkier teams, it can easily 1hko many of the frailer threats such as jolteon, cincinno, etc. Tr in general is nearly unbeatable on the suspect ladder because of the nature of the teams (except for dat pokemonisfun pelliper team. Bulky offense stall >>> tr)

 

[DinaIsha]

New Breed Why not invest in Special Defense when you know no Physical Attacker is going to attempt to attack it? It gives a good surprise factor and allows Doublade to sweep late-game. Yes, Doublade can't take repeated knocks of Special Attack, but with some prior damage to the opponent's Pokémon, Doublade can clean up quite well. Most teams have at most 2 sweepers and one Offensively-inclined mon. If two of them can't check Doublade, then it's downhill for the opponent. There's something inherently wrong if something with 59/110/150 (+ Eviloite, Swords Dance and great Typing) is in RU.

 

[Meru]

lol

-The low base power of Doublade's moves lets it down, and without LO or a choice item backing it up base 110 attack suddenly becomes a lot less impressive. Yes you can set up an SD on some popular physical attackers and deal good damage to a few things, but +2 shadow sneak isn't OHKOing shit outside of Delphox and Gallade.
-It has a number of extremely safe switch-ins like Rotom-C, Moltres, Rhyperior and Escavalier, who can all tank multiple hits from Doublade and severely cripple it or kill it outright.
-Doublade's special bulk is subpar, it can't take more than one hit from most special attackers in the tier and it has no chance of beating prominent threats like Delphox, Zoroark or Heliolisk if they come in safely.
-Doublade has no recovery whatsoever. No passive recovery from leftovers, no healing moves outside of rest. The only option for restoring Doublade's lost health is with a wishpasser, which offensive teams (who greatly appreciate Doublade's ability as a spinblocker) often don't have room for. It's very prone to being worn down throughout the match, which makes its sky-high physical bulk somewhat harder to take advantage of.


Doublade is a great pokemon and easily the best spinblocker in the tier, but it has a number of flaws that hold it back. Please don't make terrible posts full of hyperbole about Doublade's supposed "brokenness"

Idk if I'd agree with Doublade being "easy to wear down", as being SR resistant and Toxic immune as well as having a shitload of good resistances make it very resilient. It even outright WALLS a lot of offensive 'mons, such as Virizion and Cobalion.

I also wouldn't list faster Normals as things stopping Doublade from rampaging the tier, as they're insanely pressured by partner in crime Lee's powerful Mach Punch.

And finally... calcs of STAB SE or choiced SE special attacks against Doublade to showcase how poor its bulk is? smh

 

[EonX]

So, agreeing that Web Offense is crazy good right now. That said, I think there's one Pokemon that people are overlooking that can take advantage of both Spikes and Webs: Zoroark

Right now, I'm using it on a Web Offense team and I usually just send it in mid-game as a Doublade decoy, but it's funny when you can send it out as an Alomomola and still threaten to outspeed random defensive shit that's been weakened enough for Mola to KO with Waterfall. Outspeeds and murders Jolteon under Webs and still has Sucker Punch to deal incredible amounts of damage to Jolteon in Web mirror matches. It's also a super easy way to lure out the 2 best Shuckle counters (Xatu and Rhyperior) turn one as GK destroys Rhyperior and Knock Off is ravaging Xatu. Also, Zoroark is perhaps the best all-purpose offensive mon under Webs. Sure, there's Hitmonlee and Doublade, but Zoroark is able to lure out whatever the hell you need to and probably weaken it enough for whichever sweeper you're wanting to end the game with. Want LO Braviary to sweep? Force out Rocks and Steels and proceed to KO them with Flamethrower and Grass Knot. Can't stand Jolteon in Web mirror matches? Just Sucker Punch it to deal major damage. Don't want Shuckle to have to face down its only two counters? Disguise it as Zoroark and watch these two so called "counters" fall immediately.

Of course, Zoroark also benefits from Spikes support that Froslass provides. Many of Zoroark's counters are grounded, including the biggest one, Aromatisse. So long as you have something that can take advantage of and set up on Aromatisse (CM Delphox, Moltres, HC Durant, etc.) then you're good to go. Without Aromatisse, there aren't many hard counters to a Zoroark that has Spikes support. Of course, Zoroark has some problems with Hitmonlee, arguably the best offensive Pokemon in the current meta, but so long as you choose your Illusion carefully, Hitmonlee won't be willing to switch in until it's probably too late. Having Zoroark appear as stuff like Braviary, Moltres, or Delphox will make any Hitmonlee think twice about switching in before Zoroark makes a move.

Zoro set

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 216 Atk / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naughty / Naive
- Knock Off
- Flamethrower
- Grass Knot
- Sucker Punch

Obviously, use Naive outside of Webs, but I like using Naughty on Web Offense since you can afford to lose some Speed. Otherwise, moveset speaks for itself.

 

[atomicllamas]

Idk if I'd agree with Doublade being "easy to wear down", as being SR resistant and Toxic immune as well as having a shitload of good resistances make it very resilient. It even outright WALLS a lot of offensive 'mons, such as Virizion and Cobalion.

I also wouldn't list faster Normals as things stopping Doublade from rampaging the tier, as they're insanely pressured by partner in crime Lee's powerful Mach Punch.

And finally... calcs of STAB SE or choiced SE special attacks against Doublade to showcase how poor its bulk is? smh

Okay first off, he is the one that picked theses Pokemon to show off Doublade's "impressive Special Bulk", not New Breed, he also neglected the fact that all of the pokemon he chose carry boosting items. Also Doublade is actually pretty easy to wear down, as it is grounded, and Froslass is extremely good at the moment, as well as the fact that Doublade will be switching into attacks almost all the time, and one of the things it has to switch into (Hitmonlee) makes it lose its bulk thanks to Knock Off. And while it does resist Stealth Rocks, because it lacks Leftovers, it is taking the same amount of damage that something neutral to SR and capable of using leftovers does. There is also the fact that his calcs imply that Doublade has 5 moveslots, as SD, Double Ghost STAB, Steel STAB, and Sacred Sword are all used in the calcs.

Why would you not list faster normals as a check to Doublade, when they are in fact, checks to Doublade. They may be pressured by Hitmonlee, but it isn't as if Hitmonlee can actually switch into these Pokemon.

Finally, there is the biggest problem, if you think Doublade is broken, show it with a spread that is actually good, as the spread that has been listed is only able to spin block Hitmonlee one time, where as the spread with 252+ attack can do it multiple times thanks to a Shadow Sneak that can 2hko. The SpD spread isn't even capable of realistically breaking Alomomola, as it needs to get to +6 before it can 2hko Alomomola, which gives Alomomola a couple extra turns to burn, while 252+ Atk Doublade only needs to get to +4 to 2hko, and with at +6 it is has a chance to break Alomomola even if burned.

While Doublade is a very good pokemon at the moment it is not broken.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Nails unban me from irc