atomicllamas; On that OTR Reuniclus set maybe TR+Sub+2 attacks? that way it can ignore shuckle Knock Off and be ready for the next threat. You'll be at threat from Encore, but honestly I doubt anyone would expect Sub there.
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Metagame NP: RU Stage 1: Dog Days Are Over / Hello Kitty
- Thread starter Molk
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After reading a lot of posts on froslass, and laddering a bit myself. I found that Froslass is not too much of a threat (at least to me). Shuckle in my opinion can set up not only Stealth Rocks, but Sticky Web. Sticky Web in my opinion is pretty OP. Certain Shuckle sets can also trap and potentially knock out a Pokemon. In Froslass' case one could easily avoid a Destiny Bond.
I never said Doublade can break everything. That's like saying Scizor is 'manageable' in RU because it can't break Moltres. The calculations I chose were just to show how it fares against Special Attackers, who supposedly check it. And the 'fifth move' wasn't even necessary, because at +2, it can 2HKO all offensive mons with Shadow Claw/Shadow Sneak/Iron Head. That was just to show a possibility.
Doublade can simply threaten a lot of things, far more capable than any single Pokémon in the tier. And once again, maybe I am over-estimating Doublade because of Spikes and SR, since it tends to force switches. Let's wait and see how it pans out after Froslass/Shuckle are gone.
Doublade can simply threaten a lot of things, far more capable than any single Pokémon in the tier. And once again, maybe I am over-estimating Doublade because of Spikes and SR, since it tends to force switches. Let's wait and see how it pans out after Froslass/Shuckle are gone.
Losing to just about every Special Attacker isn't preferable, especially since you're so slo.
Admittedly Doublade kills everything at +4/+6 but why would you let it set up that much
dont understand how you think shuckle > frosslass. sure sticky web is an amazing hazard, but not being able to do anything to set up sweepers turn 1 is pretty miserable. you can encore but its less than 50% chance that you'll encore the right move as some set up mons may just be choiced or go for an attack that may 2hko (or have a secondary effect like doublade/coba head flinch).
frosslass has amazing ghost/ice coverage, destinybond, and taunt to prevent a situation like that. and like others have probably said already it is not vulnerable to defog users. it's also capable of being able to spinblock against foresight spinners with another ghost on the team which is pretty huge. so frosslass ensures your hazards stay while shuckle is pretty useless after the first two turns of the battle other than to get momentum back by sacking it to a mon.
also i believe doublade is good as a result of its environment. A lot of HO teams have nothing but physical attackers: Zangoose / Hitmonlee / doublade / rhyperior / Coba / Viriz etc. and doublade handles them pretty well if healthy. Could you imagine how effective doublade would be if Special attacking HO teams were more common? Also, Moltres is one of the best pokemon in the tier, but i dont really see it being used that often. it's absolutely devastating as you never know which set it is. the stealth rock weakness is a problem, but it can be overcome. if you really actively consider an answer for doublade, it's not that hard to answer. It may be able to beat a lot of individual pokemon 1v1, but because it doesn't have recovery and its moves have low bp you can take advantage of it by wittling it down.
frosslass has amazing ghost/ice coverage, destinybond, and taunt to prevent a situation like that. and like others have probably said already it is not vulnerable to defog users. it's also capable of being able to spinblock against foresight spinners with another ghost on the team which is pretty huge. so frosslass ensures your hazards stay while shuckle is pretty useless after the first two turns of the battle other than to get momentum back by sacking it to a mon.
also i believe doublade is good as a result of its environment. A lot of HO teams have nothing but physical attackers: Zangoose / Hitmonlee / doublade / rhyperior / Coba / Viriz etc. and doublade handles them pretty well if healthy. Could you imagine how effective doublade would be if Special attacking HO teams were more common? Also, Moltres is one of the best pokemon in the tier, but i dont really see it being used that often. it's absolutely devastating as you never know which set it is. the stealth rock weakness is a problem, but it can be overcome. if you really actively consider an answer for doublade, it's not that hard to answer. It may be able to beat a lot of individual pokemon 1v1, but because it doesn't have recovery and its moves have low bp you can take advantage of it by wittling it down.
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The reason Shuckle is so effective is because of the lack of defoggers in RU. There aren't many, and the ones that are there can be checked/crippled with Hitmonlee or Doublade, both common Pokémon in SW teams. Doublade can spinblock, while Hitmonlee threatens many defoggers with Knock Off. Shuckle without Sticky Web is definitely manageable.
I think it's just easier to bring shuckle back in to the battle. It's incredidum defenses means you pretty much need a Spec/LO water type to KO it handily. In my experience, Defoggers usually activate Defiant on Braviary which becomes an automatic nuke. It's nice to know you can find an opportunity later in the game to bring shuckle in on something that needs to 2/3hko it from 50-75% (like most physical attackers without a SE STAB). Froslass. Plus, Encoring something into a set-up/even a damaging move usually lets you bring in a resist and nuke something.
imo despite its superior defenses, shuckle is not as sturdy as frosslass. Shuckle has no offensive prowess and literally just sets up hazards and switches. it may have base 230 defenses, but don't forget about its miserable hp. Additionally you have to invest in speed to ensure that you can set up more hazards on slower pokemon like escav/slowking. Because of frosslass's decent attack and amazing ghost/ice coverage, a lot of pokemon that could take it out are unable to because frosslass outspeeds them and weakens them/ takes them out. there's also the never ending fear of destiny bond.
With shuckle you play around just hazards, but frosslass forces you to play around the actual pokemon. It's ghost typing supports the team by limiting HJK's, spins, and other fighting attacks which helps pokemon like rhyperior significantly. I can't tell you how many times I stayed in on a hitmonlee knocking off a pokemon fearing a ghost type switch in.
also must be nice having braviary whenever they defog.
With shuckle you play around just hazards, but frosslass forces you to play around the actual pokemon. It's ghost typing supports the team by limiting HJK's, spins, and other fighting attacks which helps pokemon like rhyperior significantly. I can't tell you how many times I stayed in on a hitmonlee knocking off a pokemon fearing a ghost type switch in.
also must be nice having braviary whenever they defog.
I agree with what you said. Its just that, if one can predict the destiny bond from froslass and sets up instead, than a sweep can easily come in. Also, despite Shuckle's horrible HP stats, it still has sturdy. So no matter what the best an opposing Pokemon can do is 2HKO it. Also, Shuckle can carry Encore, which can also disrupt the opposing team, especially since opening Pokemon usually/sometimes set up hazards.
Ya you make some good points. Shuckle has definitely fallen dead weight in a bunch of battles. But I've also found it convenient having a total Knock Off sponge. Also sorry, I didn't mean to imply braviary is always easy to bring in on a defog, but it's sorta the same game as being afraid to hjk.
You seem to think I'm suggesting that Froslass is inferior to Shuckle or that Froslass isn't good at all, I'm just saying both are actually pretty effective hazard setters that are helping HO run dominant.
I find Shuckle to be worse than Froslass, although it's mainly the Sticky Web that's worse and not actually the Shuckle part. Webs is so damn powerful, you can throw defensive synergy to the wind and aim to cover the non-grounded mons only, and apart from that it's simply set up web, attack until you die, then let something else continue. It's an auto win vs non web offensive teams cos your powerful wallbreakers get a free outspeed, and defoggers either don't exist on offense or get KOd anyway. Spinners can beat Doublade but usually they take lots of damage in the proceeds meaning that even though Doublade goes down, they don't find the chance to spin afterwards especially with -1 Spe. In addition webs also run tons of wallbreakers so it doesn't fare too badly vs stall either. The fact that I can't run offense without web/TR without almost auto losing makes webs kinda centralizing and worse than Froslass imo.
I've not met many Froslass either while laddering and honestly I felt that it was manageable, mainly because I laddered with web offense like 80% of the people here. I used a slow prio user (Doublade) which meant that Froslass was either limited to 1 Spike or had to switch out. Thing is, Froslass is kinda stunted by web hyper offense, because if it has to switch out, it has to come back to Spike up when web isn't up, otherwise it's not as effective without the Speed. Sure it can come in on Shuckle but that doesn't stop the webber from double switching / setting up web anyway since web HO doesn't switch as much as most other teams. I'm not sure if it's a case of broken checking broken but atm Sticky Web and slow prio really put Froslass in its place from what I've seen.
I'm not sure if I'll vote to ban or not. I know Froslass can potentially do so much but then I've never had many problems with it apart from having to choose an entirely different lead the moment it pops up in team preview.
I've not met many Froslass either while laddering and honestly I felt that it was manageable, mainly because I laddered with web offense like 80% of the people here. I used a slow prio user (Doublade) which meant that Froslass was either limited to 1 Spike or had to switch out. Thing is, Froslass is kinda stunted by web hyper offense, because if it has to switch out, it has to come back to Spike up when web isn't up, otherwise it's not as effective without the Speed. Sure it can come in on Shuckle but that doesn't stop the webber from double switching / setting up web anyway since web HO doesn't switch as much as most other teams. I'm not sure if it's a case of broken checking broken but atm Sticky Web and slow prio really put Froslass in its place from what I've seen.
I'm not sure if I'll vote to ban or not. I know Froslass can potentially do so much but then I've never had many problems with it apart from having to choose an entirely different lead the moment it pops up in team preview.
Bleh fuck froslass. I cant get reqs (my dad cancelled our internet so, and im 2200 coil too fak... and now i cant flirt with ari either :[[[[) but Ill still post my thoughts so eh.
they are both broke nd overcentralizing like fak nd shit. Like 9 outta 10 teams on ladder is froslass or Shuckle offense. Froslass breaks stall and balance teams apart and shuckle breaks froslass and balance apart like fuck. Like fuck ive started to run fletchinder on so many teams cuz it has an incredible matchup against both... and im a stall player soo... ye.
Nyeye froslass is a better setter than shuckle cuz it, unlike shuck, actually has offensive pressure with a stab ice beam (mind you stab ice type moves are still strong) as well as dbond. Froslass is literally a 50/50 mon, and that alone is so annoying. Shuclle is hazards only with the fortunate ability to rin encore so that it isnt completely setup bait. And i guess infestation so that you can get a good matchup aftet shuck dies or you switch.
they are both broke nd overcentralizing like fak nd shit. Like 9 outta 10 teams on ladder is froslass or Shuckle offense. Froslass breaks stall and balance teams apart and shuckle breaks froslass and balance apart like fuck. Like fuck ive started to run fletchinder on so many teams cuz it has an incredible matchup against both... and im a stall player soo... ye.
Nyeye froslass is a better setter than shuckle cuz it, unlike shuck, actually has offensive pressure with a stab ice beam (mind you stab ice type moves are still strong) as well as dbond. Froslass is literally a 50/50 mon, and that alone is so annoying. Shuclle is hazards only with the fortunate ability to rin encore so that it isnt completely setup bait. And i guess infestation so that you can get a good matchup aftet shuck dies or you switch.
Laddering RU suspect was one of the worst experiences of my life lol. I have no idea why Froslass is being suspected at all. I haven't seen it used much at all, and it pales to the setter that is Shuckle. Shuckle can set up web or rocks without fail unless you either have hax on your side or are using choice band rhyperior with rock blast that gets 5 hits. What? You want to set up on Shuckle? Say hello to encore. Between herb and sturdy, you really cannot prevent web getting up (unless you're like, using Xatu or magic bounce, and let's be honest, that's not a good idea). There's a surprising lack of good spinners and defoggers in RU, and shuckle also carries utility role in that it can knock off and encore.
I'm still 100 COIL short of reqs at this moment, but I just wanted to post this. I have no idea why Froslass is being suspected. Also, Shuckle is terrible. Bleh, laddering this was torture.
I'm still 100 COIL short of reqs at this moment, but I just wanted to post this. I have no idea why Froslass is being suspected. Also, Shuckle is terrible. Bleh, laddering this was torture.
I think that statement alone goes to show how you view the whole thing. Froslass and Shuckle are both too powerful for RU and they will be suspected.
When the council chose a suspect web teams were not all that common, and although they have always been solid, the standard web team you see on the ladder hadn't been figured out, so they were much easier to deal with. Sticky web also creates faster games (10-15 turns), which is one of the reasons why people are using it so much, because people want to get done with reqs as fast as possible. It has already been stated multiple times throughout this thread (which your post makes pretty clear you've read exactly none of) that Shuckle / a variant of web setters / webs will be the suspect for the next round. If you are curious as to why Froslass is being suspected, there is literally a paragraph in the OP detailing what makes Froslass a suspect worthy Pokemon, I also suggest you take the last couple of battles you need to try out Froslass for yourself, as you have stated you haven't seen it much, here is an example of a team.
Finally, as it has already been stated, even if you believe Shuckle is more broken at the moment than Froslass is, that does not mean that Froslass isn't broken, and if you "have no idea" of why it is being suspected, you probably aren't qualified to vote.
After achieving reqs using froslass HO, sticky web HO and heavy stall I will say that at least in my opinion, froslass is absolutely overpowered whereas shuckle might be overpowered and might not be. I am not denying that sticky web teams (aka shuckle teams) are a defining influence in the meta right now, but I don't think shuckle is better than froslass by a long shot.
Froslass has two hard counters in the sense that they will outspeed and KO her through focus sash, but both beat up ambipom and rock blast cinccino are rather predictable and easy to lead against (literally just dont send out froslass first if you see either of those two pokemon). Against anything except these two pokemon, froslass will set up a layer of spikes; and while this isnt necessarily overpowered in and of itself, she afterwards repeatedly forces 50/50s with taunt, spikes, and destiny bond thanks to her high speed, immunity to rapid spin and STAB ice beam that hits the two "best" defoggers in the tier super effectively. You can break her focus sash and switch to a toxic / will-o-wisp user to bypass destiny bond, but that gives her a free turn to set up spikes and forces another 50/50 through her taunt (and unfortunately, subtoxic moltres is the only thing off the top of my head that can break froslass' focus sash and then status it afterwards). In addition, switching to bypass destiny bond not only racks up extra spikes damage but also gives her free turns to set up more spikes. Even scarfers (choice scarf being the most common way to outspeed froslass and prevent the second layer of spikes / destiny bond) can backfire massively due to Cursed Body rendering these pokemon setup fodder 51% of the time, sometimes at the additional cost of 25% max hp.
Froslass also has a lot of key advantages over shuckle. She is immune to rapid spin; she puts massive pressure on the otherwise best defoggers in the tier; she prevents opposing setup rather than just Encoring it, which is extremely crucial in the case of SR; she is useful beyond being a suicide lead by blocking rapid spin or deterring high jump kick; she has the speed to set up additional spikes later on in the game or abuse STAB ice beam; but perhaps most importantly, spikes is impactful versus every team (except like, mono flying, but even so froslass can just spam ice beam) whereas sticky web is not particularly impactful versus stall (it's undeniably really good against froslass HO -- but that doesn't make froslass balanced or shuckle overpowered). Yes, you can argue that shuckle also sets up SR, but even so, shuckle essentially forces its team to play 5+hazards vs. 6 whereas froslass most often gets the game down to 5+slightly less good hazards vs. 5. On top of that defog actually has surprisingly poor distribution in the tier and no spinner can actually beat the most common ghost in the tier, doublade, except goddamn torkoal.
Then there's my next point, which is that sticky web is not particularly impactful vs stall. You could argue that stall is not an important team archetype in XY RU, but I would attribute that largely to froslass, who is not even 2HKOd by most common stall members and forces stall players to run otherwise obscure checks such as scarf drapion or defog pelipper on a team archetype that is already strapped for slots in a metagame filled to the brim with wallbreakers. While it is much less popular compared to focus sash froslass this generation than it was in bw1 uu, bulky froslass is even more threatening to stall due to its ability to continually set up spikes against stall components that cannot pressure froslass, in addition to defoggers either being hit hard by ice beam or being setup bait themselves once taunted (besides moltres, but i don't think i should have to explain why defog moltres is flawed).
As such, I can say that froslass is definitively overpowered due to how much it restrains teambuilding; unless you run a pokemon that specifically KOs her before she makes a second move (or your own froslass, either with shadow ball or hoping to win the speed tie and taunt the other froslass turn 1), the game often becomes not 6 vs. 6 but 5 + hazards vs. 5, and even among the handful of fast pokemon and viable scarfers (plus rhyperior i guess), only ambipom and cinccino can fully prevent her from just using destiny bond turn 1 and forcing even more 50/50s.
Froslass has two hard counters in the sense that they will outspeed and KO her through focus sash, but both beat up ambipom and rock blast cinccino are rather predictable and easy to lead against (literally just dont send out froslass first if you see either of those two pokemon). Against anything except these two pokemon, froslass will set up a layer of spikes; and while this isnt necessarily overpowered in and of itself, she afterwards repeatedly forces 50/50s with taunt, spikes, and destiny bond thanks to her high speed, immunity to rapid spin and STAB ice beam that hits the two "best" defoggers in the tier super effectively. You can break her focus sash and switch to a toxic / will-o-wisp user to bypass destiny bond, but that gives her a free turn to set up spikes and forces another 50/50 through her taunt (and unfortunately, subtoxic moltres is the only thing off the top of my head that can break froslass' focus sash and then status it afterwards). In addition, switching to bypass destiny bond not only racks up extra spikes damage but also gives her free turns to set up more spikes. Even scarfers (choice scarf being the most common way to outspeed froslass and prevent the second layer of spikes / destiny bond) can backfire massively due to Cursed Body rendering these pokemon setup fodder 51% of the time, sometimes at the additional cost of 25% max hp.
Froslass also has a lot of key advantages over shuckle. She is immune to rapid spin; she puts massive pressure on the otherwise best defoggers in the tier; she prevents opposing setup rather than just Encoring it, which is extremely crucial in the case of SR; she is useful beyond being a suicide lead by blocking rapid spin or deterring high jump kick; she has the speed to set up additional spikes later on in the game or abuse STAB ice beam; but perhaps most importantly, spikes is impactful versus every team (except like, mono flying, but even so froslass can just spam ice beam) whereas sticky web is not particularly impactful versus stall (it's undeniably really good against froslass HO -- but that doesn't make froslass balanced or shuckle overpowered). Yes, you can argue that shuckle also sets up SR, but even so, shuckle essentially forces its team to play 5+hazards vs. 6 whereas froslass most often gets the game down to 5+slightly less good hazards vs. 5. On top of that defog actually has surprisingly poor distribution in the tier and no spinner can actually beat the most common ghost in the tier, doublade, except goddamn torkoal.
Then there's my next point, which is that sticky web is not particularly impactful vs stall. You could argue that stall is not an important team archetype in XY RU, but I would attribute that largely to froslass, who is not even 2HKOd by most common stall members and forces stall players to run otherwise obscure checks such as scarf drapion or defog pelipper on a team archetype that is already strapped for slots in a metagame filled to the brim with wallbreakers. While it is much less popular compared to focus sash froslass this generation than it was in bw1 uu, bulky froslass is even more threatening to stall due to its ability to continually set up spikes against stall components that cannot pressure froslass, in addition to defoggers either being hit hard by ice beam or being setup bait themselves once taunted (besides moltres, but i don't think i should have to explain why defog moltres is flawed).
As such, I can say that froslass is definitively overpowered due to how much it restrains teambuilding; unless you run a pokemon that specifically KOs her before she makes a second move (or your own froslass, either with shadow ball or hoping to win the speed tie and taunt the other froslass turn 1), the game often becomes not 6 vs. 6 but 5 + hazards vs. 5, and even among the handful of fast pokemon and viable scarfers (plus rhyperior i guess), only ambipom and cinccino can fully prevent her from just using destiny bond turn 1 and forcing even more 50/50s.
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To be quite honest, webs teams are way more effective against stall than SlottedPig is implying, due to the fact that webs teams tend to run multiple wallbreakers, such as Lee, yan and exploud. These mons are not something you can easily play around without outspeeding them, making the generally slow stall teams a bad matchup VS such teams.
As I near getting requirements, I'm noticing pretty much what everyone else is about Froslass: the teams that use it are all pretty much identical (came up with almost the same team Molk posted a couple pages ago and I have not played a lot of RU this gen), and the teams that don't spend the first few turns revolving around how to beat it, forcing leads and often putting the user of Froslass in a better position merely by having it on Team Preview. If it were easier to fit a fast Taunt user that wasn't Froslass itself onto a team, things might be different, but as it stands Froslass is much too centralizing.
As far as Shuckle (and Sticky Web)... it doesn't force the same kind of 50/50 situations turn after turn that Froslass does, but it is annoying how consistently it can get webs and rocks up unless you feel like running Rampardos (honestly can't think of anything else that consistently stops Shuckle leads) on all your teams. And then we're in the same spot as Froslass vs teams with Ambipom/Cinccino.
As far as Shuckle (and Sticky Web)... it doesn't force the same kind of 50/50 situations turn after turn that Froslass does, but it is annoying how consistently it can get webs and rocks up unless you feel like running Rampardos (honestly can't think of anything else that consistently stops Shuckle leads) on all your teams. And then we're in the same spot as Froslass vs teams with Ambipom/Cinccino.
I am finding Froslass relatively underwhelming considering that is being suspected. I know it's amazing but the whole Shuckle thing really took over. I think Shuckle should be suspected immediately after Froslass. Additionally, if Froslass is not banned and we decide to suspect (and ban) Shuckle, I think Froslass deserves another suspect test.
Also, 800 posts aww yee
Also, 800 posts aww yee
Having reached reqs with two alts and nearing it with a third, I think the strongest argument against both Froslass and Shuckle is that they both have a "team" that seems to make up at least a fifth of the ladder each, and that team is almost identical in mons (but not sets) for both, and, if played right, completely destroys things that aren't also on that team, or so it feels.
I especially feel the thing that really completes the teams is Doublade, who I don't feel is broken (or, honestly, that great) on it's own, but with a layer of Spikes/Sticky Web and Stealth Rocks up, can be very hard to check, especially as Froslass/Shuckle teams tend to be relatively bulky in addition to having a lot of power.
I especially feel the thing that really completes the teams is Doublade, who I don't feel is broken (or, honestly, that great) on it's own, but with a layer of Spikes/Sticky Web and Stealth Rocks up, can be very hard to check, especially as Froslass/Shuckle teams tend to be relatively bulky in addition to having a lot of power.
It took over because of Froslass. That's how overcentralizing it is.
Also, molk said he wants to see a Froslass-less meta before deciding whether to suspect shuckle or not, in this thread.
Ok just going to weigh in with my thoughts on Froslass but also a brief mention of Shuckle.
In my experience on the ladder (which is around 44 games) I saw literally 4 teams containing Froslass. This obviously could just be the poor quality of players currently laddering in RU or it could be partly due to the fact everyone and their mother is over-preparing for Froslass on the ladder. Regardless, in the games that I did face it, they were generally standard lead Spikes, Destiny Bond, Taunt etc etc. My team contained 4 mons that could either outspeed and 2HKO (Jolteon and Rotom-C) and 2 mons that were slower but could still kill Froslass without it being able to get down either of 2 spikes or 1 spike + D bond (Doublade and Rhyperior). So basically, my team had practically every viable counter measure in order to beat Froslass (I don't consider Beat up Ambipom or Chinchilla viable) and you know what happened? Froslass still managed to do at least one of the things it was put onto the team to do. 4 mons. 2/3 of my team had the ability to beat Froslass but did it matter? No, because Froslass still managed to get up a Spike or Destiny Bond my Rhyperior or whatever. So do I think the fact Froslass has access to Taunt, D-Bond, Spikes, Spinblocking it's own hazards and even spreading Paralysis is broken? No I do not. But the fact that I can put 4 mons in my team that can outspeed and 2HKO or be slower and OHKO (in Rhyperior's case) or kill with one, two punch (Doublade) yet Froslass still manages to set up a Spike/Stop opposing hazards/Destiny Bond a mon every single game, game after game without fail is what I consider broken about Froslass. It's like if I put a Calm Mind Delphox on my team and it literally swept every game, no matter what the opponent's opposing team was, no matter how many counters you put on that team, it still managed to do it's job and sweep every time, we would all consider that broken right? Well that's how I see it with Froslass, something that can do it's job so well, so often, regardless of how hard you prepare for it, is the reason I think that Froslass is far too overcentralising and strong for the RU metagame.
As for Shuckle, yes it got Sticky Web, yes it has Stealth Rock and tremendous bulk and Encore and whatever else you want to run on Shuckle. But at the end of the day, it's still a Shuckle and it still has absolutely no Offensive pressure, no way to spinblock it's own hazards like Froslass,no way to stop a defogger just sitting there and spamming Defog over and over, Shuckle by itself is not what I consider to be broken. What I think is broken is the whole play style that comes about because of the support Shuckle brings. If it wasn't for the fact, it got such incredible partners, I wouldn't consider Shuckle or Webs Offense broken at all. Braviary and Doublade are the two bigs one that come to mind, how can you possibly hope to win a hazards war when you have literally the best spinblocker in the entire lower tiers and a mon that when equipped with a Life Orb and a Defiant Boost from Defog, has the equivalent power of a +1 Mega Mawile. But ok, maybe I just don't spin the hazards away, no big deal, Sticky Web doesn't affect that much of the Metagame does it, right? Wrong. The list of mons that are protected from Sticky Web are limited to Flyers and Levitators. Moltres, Yanmega, Braviary, Rotom Formes, Cresselia, Bronzong and Gligar. That's basically it. 7 mons. 7. In an entire metagame of viable mons you can use that aren't affected by Sticky Web. But don't forget, Shuckle also has rocks, so 2 of them are at half health now and 1 of them is at 75%. Now you've cut it back to the list of mons that can viably switch in and out numerous times during a battle vs Sticky Web to 4. Do I need to say more? Unless you run, hard stall or like people said, CB Rhyperior and hit 5 times, you're not stopping Shuckle setting up hazards and what happens when you bring your Spinner/Defogger in? You give Brav +2 or Doublade a free switch in? Nah dawg, fuck Sticky Web for real.
Having said all this I personally never had a problem with Sticky Web cause i'm an asshole and cater my teams to specifically beat SW teams so y'know. But still, fuck Froslass and SW, I look forward to both leaving RU :]
Edit: Haruno , mah bad fren, I thought Defog had 48PP :[
In my experience on the ladder (which is around 44 games) I saw literally 4 teams containing Froslass. This obviously could just be the poor quality of players currently laddering in RU or it could be partly due to the fact everyone and their mother is over-preparing for Froslass on the ladder. Regardless, in the games that I did face it, they were generally standard lead Spikes, Destiny Bond, Taunt etc etc. My team contained 4 mons that could either outspeed and 2HKO (Jolteon and Rotom-C) and 2 mons that were slower but could still kill Froslass without it being able to get down either of 2 spikes or 1 spike + D bond (Doublade and Rhyperior). So basically, my team had practically every viable counter measure in order to beat Froslass (I don't consider Beat up Ambipom or Chinchilla viable) and you know what happened? Froslass still managed to do at least one of the things it was put onto the team to do. 4 mons. 2/3 of my team had the ability to beat Froslass but did it matter? No, because Froslass still managed to get up a Spike or Destiny Bond my Rhyperior or whatever. So do I think the fact Froslass has access to Taunt, D-Bond, Spikes, Spinblocking it's own hazards and even spreading Paralysis is broken? No I do not. But the fact that I can put 4 mons in my team that can outspeed and 2HKO or be slower and OHKO (in Rhyperior's case) or kill with one, two punch (Doublade) yet Froslass still manages to set up a Spike/Stop opposing hazards/Destiny Bond a mon every single game, game after game without fail is what I consider broken about Froslass. It's like if I put a Calm Mind Delphox on my team and it literally swept every game, no matter what the opponent's opposing team was, no matter how many counters you put on that team, it still managed to do it's job and sweep every time, we would all consider that broken right? Well that's how I see it with Froslass, something that can do it's job so well, so often, regardless of how hard you prepare for it, is the reason I think that Froslass is far too overcentralising and strong for the RU metagame.
As for Shuckle, yes it got Sticky Web, yes it has Stealth Rock and tremendous bulk and Encore and whatever else you want to run on Shuckle. But at the end of the day, it's still a Shuckle and it still has absolutely no Offensive pressure, no way to spinblock it's own hazards like Froslass,
Having said all this I personally never had a problem with Sticky Web cause i'm an asshole and cater my teams to specifically beat SW teams so y'know. But still, fuck Froslass and SW, I look forward to both leaving RU :]
Edit: Haruno , mah bad fren, I thought Defog had 48PP :[
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Yeah, since I got reqs, I feel obliged to post my opinion on Froslass, and even Shuckle. I probably won't say anything that hasn't been said before, but oh well. I'll start by saying that the suspect ladder was a completely terrible experience to the one I had pre-suspect ladder. The variety in teams changed so fucking drastically, you went from seeing quite a bunch of froslass offense teams/very few sticky web teams and a ton of other team archetypes like TR, bulky offense, and I've even seen stall numerous times, to the suspect ladder which literally only had Shuckle Offense and a few Froslass Offense teams, with the occasional OTR teams that are there to counter Shuckle Offense. It's turned into broken shit countering broken shit, and that's not a metagame that I desire for my favourite tier. I don't want Froslass banned because of the immense support it brings and the amazing utility it has with STAB Ice Beam, Spikes, very high speed, destiny bond, and cursed body, but because of how ridiculously overcentralizing it is. Yes, Rock Blast Rhyperior leads can often kill Froslass, but that will lead into a 50/50 mindgame in which you have to decide if you would sack your (presumably) Stealth Rock setter to limit Froslass's spikes or force it to d.bond, which makes the game a 5-5 matchup on turn 1, and sacking a Pokemon like Rhyperior in a metagame where its one of the best Pokemon and has the ability to check tonnes of mons on turn 1 is something pretty bad. There are other options, like having a slower (or faster) U-turn/Volt Switch user and then switch into something faster to kill it, but not all teams have that, since Froslass's speed is already really good.
That leads me to another point in which Froslass Offense made stall pretty much unviable thanks to the fact that Froslass Offense usually shits on stall with hazards + strong wallbreakers like Hitmonlee. And the fact that Froslass itself beats almost all defoggers with its STAB Ice Beam doesn't really help stall either and forces lots of switches, and with Spikes down, that's a bit too annoying. It's also very easy to spinblock, since Doublade, a Pokemon that's very good on Froslass Offense, also happens to be one of the best spinblockers because of its gigantic defense with Eviolite, fantastic offensive/defensive typing, and good attack stat.
Which also leads me to the fact that Froslass Offense made teambuilding so easy and stale in the current metagame, you literally use Froslass / Ghost (Doublade usually) / Sharpedo / Hitmonlee / Filler (Braviary is good here) / Filler and you will have a successful team that will function well almost all the time. This made the metagame very stale and overcentralized. It also made teams like Shuckle Offense popular because it fares well vs. Froslass HO.. which is why I previously said RU suspect ladder was the worst of all. Out of 10 matches, 8 would be vs. Shuckle Offense. Sticky Web became ridiculous, and does the same as Froslass Offense in making the metagame very, very centralized and teambuilding very stale and easy. With Shuckle Offense, you just need Shuckle, Hitmonlee, and 4 other wallbreakers, usually Exploud, Doublade, Braviary, and something else.
The two Pokemon are very bad for the metagame imo and both deserve to be suspect tested and removed from the tier asap. But I guess we'll have to see how the metagame would turn out to be without Froslass before suspecting Shuckle, which is fine.
edit: jesus, how many times did I say "Froslass Offense" or "Froslass HO" in this post? lol
That leads me to another point in which Froslass Offense made stall pretty much unviable thanks to the fact that Froslass Offense usually shits on stall with hazards + strong wallbreakers like Hitmonlee. And the fact that Froslass itself beats almost all defoggers with its STAB Ice Beam doesn't really help stall either and forces lots of switches, and with Spikes down, that's a bit too annoying. It's also very easy to spinblock, since Doublade, a Pokemon that's very good on Froslass Offense, also happens to be one of the best spinblockers because of its gigantic defense with Eviolite, fantastic offensive/defensive typing, and good attack stat.
Which also leads me to the fact that Froslass Offense made teambuilding so easy and stale in the current metagame, you literally use Froslass / Ghost (Doublade usually) / Sharpedo / Hitmonlee / Filler (Braviary is good here) / Filler and you will have a successful team that will function well almost all the time. This made the metagame very stale and overcentralized. It also made teams like Shuckle Offense popular because it fares well vs. Froslass HO.. which is why I previously said RU suspect ladder was the worst of all. Out of 10 matches, 8 would be vs. Shuckle Offense. Sticky Web became ridiculous, and does the same as Froslass Offense in making the metagame very, very centralized and teambuilding very stale and easy. With Shuckle Offense, you just need Shuckle, Hitmonlee, and 4 other wallbreakers, usually Exploud, Doublade, Braviary, and something else.
The two Pokemon are very bad for the metagame imo and both deserve to be suspect tested and removed from the tier asap. But I guess we'll have to see how the metagame would turn out to be without Froslass before suspecting Shuckle, which is fine.
edit: jesus, how many times did I say "Froslass Offense" or "Froslass HO" in this post? lol
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