Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Sulo]

We're gonna ban it anyway. Have some faith in your community.

This is what we said about Tera and we saw a few joke votes as a result in the first test; look where we are now.

A suspect test for something like this wouldn't really be the play. Previous posts have claimed that not doing so would actually be going against the will of the community or ignoring what the community is saying entirely, which isn't true; council decisions are still influenced by the community (i.e. ban slates after survey results). It's just that some are more "obvious" than others. We still want people to discuss about sleep to gain a better idea of whether or not the people at large think it's an issue.

e: also let's please stop with the one-liners, any more of them will probably be deleted

 

[Skyuchi]

You are assuming that Darkrai landing a sleep move is game breaking in and of itself.

Yes.
But to not make this a one-liner, it definitely is beyond any reasonable doubt. It is an obscenely strong Pokemon with almost perfect (albeit inaccurate) coverage and a boosting move that makes it unwallable outside the Unaware ability or Blissey, and the few things that can switch in are all ruined by sleep or take an absurd chunk of damage from one of its attacks.
If there is any doubt, consult Gen 4 Ubers to see how it even destroyed things far far stronger than what we see currently in NDOU.
Edit: I forgot Darkrai was close to being banned in Gen 6 Ubers lmao yeah there is literally zero argument he does not break the game when he pulls off a sleep

 

[Joseph Gomes]

those who like sleep to stay, might as well argue for why sleep clause should exist, and sleep isn't a big issue in natdex with sleep clause around. Sleep clause will never get any suspect, since we all know what unrestricted sleep will do to the meta.

 

[Patar136]

Suspect test for what? Sleep clause? Do you think sleep is not problematic without sleep clause?

A suspect on sleep as a whole. Obviously no restrictions at all on sleep would be terrible. A suspect on whether we keep sleep (at all) in the meta game with existing sleep clause.

This is what we said about Tera and we saw a few joke votes as a result in the first test; look where we are now.

We have had several Tera suspects. They all have ended with us not banning Tera. Unless you are implying that anybody who said "Yes, to Tera" is invalid. Which, you can think that, but the community disagrees. Or else they would have agreed by the second attempt on Tera.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

A suspect on sleep as a whole. Obviously no restrictions at all on sleep would be terrible. A suspect on whether we keep sleep (at all) in the meta game with existing sleep clause.

A lot of people, in their primary argument, want to remove sleep clause entirely. For them, suspect testing sleep with sleep clause is irrelevant. how do you plan to address that? OU is firmly against any mechanic that's not replicable on cartridge. I don't know what natdex council feels about this, but if natdex council shares similar sentiment as OU, the existence of sleep clause should be a bigger concern to you than sleep being broken/uncompetitive by itself.

 

[The N@me User]

This is what we said about Tera and we saw a few joke votes as a result in the first test; look where we are now.

So to be clear, do you believe putting Terastallization up for Suspect rather than Council vote was a mistake? It avoided a Ban by less than a few votes iirc, is this the consensus among the Council about how Tera was handled, or yourself?

No hostility intended, talk of Tera has been avoided after the second Test so I find this comment interesting.

A suspect test for something like this wouldn't really be the play. Previous posts have claimed that not doing so would actually be going against the will of the community or ignoring what the community is saying entirely, which isn't true; council decisions are still influenced by the community (i.e. ban slates after survey results). It's just that some are more "obvious" than others. We still want people to discuss about sleep to gain a better idea of whether or not the people at large think it's an issue.

Adding this to the above, a vocal part of the community actually supported a Tera Ban even though it didn't pan out, which in some ways could be taken to mean the community at large may say one thing in theory but in practice decide differently, so what's the idea behind gathering the community's thoughts on Sleep when we've seen that being very Pro-Ban on a mechanic doesn't mean the entire community wants it gone (and vice versa).

I guess that goes back the first question, do you believe not letting the Council decide Terastallization's legality to be a mistake?

Edit: Just wanna sneak in that I totally support a Third Tera Test btw, if that ever goes up for consideration lol.

 

[Patar136]

I don't care if we ban sleep. But the arguments have been bad as to why we should ban sleep. And I don't want to have to refute them all, so instead I'm just gonna add more arguments because I agree with the result, not the motive.

Ban Sleep because Crobat gets Hypnosis. Unlike Darkrai, it's wicked fast (faster even) gets STAB on Sludge Bomb, can still use Nasty Plot, is immune to toxic and ground types and can switch with U Turn. Sleep makes it broken.

Ban Sleep because we got Sing Chansey. It has the bulk to give out several sing attempts and any one of them helps refortify the stall team it's on. That makes them too much.

Makes as much sense as anything else.

 

[Sulo]

So to be clear, do you believe putting Terastallization up for Suspect rather than Council vote was a mistake? It avoided a Ban by less than a few votes iirc, is this the consensus among the Council about how Tera was handled, or yourself?

I didn't have much of a say in the second test due to my LOA, so I can't really comment on this. Sorry!

In general, though, I don't think letting the community decide whether or not Tera stayed was a mistake. Terastallization had a lot of layers to it that meant things weren't really as black and white as a Pokemon suspect, per se (not to say things have to be for a test to be out of the question; it's just that both sides had a chance at arguing for whether or not it stayed, even if it was seemingly skewed in pro-ban favor).

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

sleep clause should Go. it's Not reproduceable ingame. Then why Do You tera before pursuit? Who said that? it's Not reproduceable in game. Ban pursuit, Ban tera, and Ban gen8 &9 moves So it's reproduceable by gen7 mechanics. Darkrai CLEARLY is the issue and people Don't want to assume they were wrong on darkrai So they try to nerf it Even worse than gamefreak Did. Just Ban darkrai, Then you'll realize that SLEEP DISCUSSION WAS NEVER BROUGHT UP BEFORE DARKRAI in natdex OU SV. maybe a post or tWO, but Not like 5 full pages. If council males a decision, it has to be to Ban darkrai. natdex playerbase is Very difficult to identify as Most of them dont participate There. There is nO faith in the playerbase. Suspects are for controversial questions. SLEEP CLAUSE IS NOT A PROBLEM FOR THE METAGAME. So making it competitive would not imply ban it. Cause ban sleep clause is, for the unteenth time, USELESS AND IRRELEVANT

 

[Nish the Great]

The past 3 pages of discussion have been 90% back and forth non-arguments so I'm gonna do the only rational decision and throw more drivel onto the trash heap.

"Why bother with cart accuracy/tiering policy when this is an OM/Pet Mod?"

OMs work by making changes to cart to accomodate the "goal" of the OM. If the OM can function properly without a change, then we adhere to cart. In case some of you haven't read it, the purpose of Natdex is to "simulate an OU metagame if Gamefreak hadn't stopped removing things post gen 7". Nowhere in there does it say "also we should balance sleep with a mod" because that isn't close to related to the purpose. This paragraph is basically entirely dedicated to a single user on this thread who has posted 5-10 times using this same argument.

Hidin, my friend. You're in for a world of pain.

You make this a council vote you're in for a world of pain. A world. Of. Pain.

Has the entire world gone CRAZY?!? Am I the only one who thinks we should making a competitive meta game first and foremost? Make it a suspect test! Show some respect for your community and that you are good role models. Or not. Just let yourselves become laughing stocks because you are all afraid of Dark Void Darkrai.

We're gonna ban it anyway. Have some faith in your community.

>makes a weird offhand threat???
>implies that banning sleep is uncompetitive???
>claims dark void darkrai is a reason for the sleep ban???

I may be minimodding but theres an insane amount of messages here that were obviously written in the span of 30 seconds, with 0 punctuation, not to mention 0 seconds of thought as to what message you're even trying to get across. Theres been approximately 4 users with 80% of the last 5 pages of messages, and it's nearly all one-liners.

 

[Skyuchi]

sleep clause should Go. it's Not reproduceable ingame. Then why Do You tera before pursuit? Who said that? it's Not reproduceable in game. Ban pursuit, Ban tera, and Ban gen8 &9 moves So it's reproduceable by gen7 mechanics. Darkrai CLEARLY is the issue and people Don't want to assume they were wrong on darkrai So they try to nerf it Even worse than gamefreak Did. Just Ban darkrai, Then you'll realize that SLEEP DISCUSSION WAS NEVER BROUGHT UP BEFORE DARKRAI in natdex OU SV. maybe a post or tWO, but Not like 5 full pages. If council males a decision, it has to be to Ban darkrai. natdex playerbase is Very difficult to identify as Most of them dont participate There. There is nO faith in the playerbase. Suspects are for controversial questions. SLEEP CLAUSE IS NOT A PROBLEM FOR THE METAGAME. So making it competitive would not imply ban it. Cause ban sleep clause is, for the unteenth time, USELESS AND IRRELEVANT

While true that this was not a major issue before Darkrai, the point stands that Iron Valiant is just about as dangerous, and still just as cheesy in allowing an unskilled player to win through sheer RNG.
You simply handwave this away saying 'well you should use Encore anyway', which is probably true if you're skilled - but that's the issue, is Hypnosis on Iron Valiant does nothing but facilitate bad players winning.
You will still have the exact same problem if all you do is ban Darkrai.
You will not make any grounds nor convince anyone if you don't acknowledge WHY the problem exists.

 

[Nish the Great]

How will the removal of this clause affect other tiers where Sleep is prevalent, like NDDOU or to an extent NDUU (Amoonguss is B-ranked)?

As far as I know, the sleep ban is not affecting doubles formats in any way. Doubles tiering is already completely detached from singles tiering, and they already have their own version of sleep restrictions (Gravity Sleep Clause). NDUU, on the other hand, will lose sleep (haha lose sleep geddit), which will probably be the most relevant fallout of any sleep ban.

 

[The N@me User]

I'm on your side, but this attitude is just not going to fucking cut it. To engage in a healthy debate, we have to hear the other side out, not just go "I don't want to refute your arguments, so I'm just going to set up a strawman and punch that instead". Honestly, I've heard so many poor arguments from the anti-ban side that I can't really justify being a big part of this debate anymore.

Why are we debating this at all? It's already been made clear that the we aren't in control of whether Sleep goes or stays, we are simply arguing over something that isn't up for debate.

Only the Council's thoughts on this matter, and on that note, this discussion should've been relegated to the Policy Review board, not derailing the Metagame discussion.

I strongly believe it's not worth commenting on and everyone should just move on until the Council decides what they want to do with it.

 

[Skyuchi]

The thing about this argument is that any form of "sheer RNG", as you put it, is possible no matter what. Is it sheer RNG if I flinch my opponent twice with a Jirachi Iron Head when they needed to use a recovery move to win? Is it sheer RNG if I get two lucky paralysis turns in a row to win if I would've lost otherwise? Sheer RNG is, and will always be, a part of Pokemon. I don't think this argument is unique enough to sleep where it is the primary factor to its ban. Cartridge accuracy and player enjoyment I can get, but this is an argument that I don't buy.

Flinch moves? Yes. Absolutely.
Flinch moves on Serene Grace Pokemon boil everything down to luck with or without paralysis support. It is an inherently uncompetitive strategy and the primary reason Shaymin-Sky should never return to OU. despite its otherwise quite mediocre stats and extremely flawed typing.
I would in full support a universal ban on Serene Grace + flinch moves. Jirachi is a plague and there is nothing more frustrating in current Gen 4 than having a game outright stolen from you just because Jirachi did Jirachi things and you're incapable of moving even though a single attack would KO it. There is nothing this adds to the game. Any argument of 'Well, it allows you to blanket check any single offensive threat!' is inherently terrible because if a threat needs luck to be addressed reasonably, it is in and of itself unreasonable (not that I think any unreasonable threats exist in that generation, anyway).
The return of Z-Happy Hour Jirachi with Iron Head is concerning and also terrible for the metagame.

Paralysis I think is overall fine. It is beyond stupid when players are able to fish for a full para to use a setup move and then sweep the enemy team (thank you Serperior, very cool!). However, it also allows you to shut down offensive threats. Any fast and frail sweeper becomes extremely manageable if you are able to pull off a Thunder Wave so that you can now outspeed and kill it via attrition. If we were to mod the game to remove the full paralysis chance from paralysis yet keep the speed drop, I don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing, but that sort of modification is probably best not implemented for various reasons, and overall it's pretty unlikely that someone is going to lose the game purely due to paralysis. Paralysis does far more to balance offensive threats than it does to ruin things due to RNG. It's a net positive even if it has negatives to it, I would say.
As does something like Spore on Amoonguss! Which is why I don't support a full sleep ban, only basically every sleep move aside from Sleep Powder/Spore/Yawn.

My argument is that when something adds sheer RNG, yet does NOTHING to contribute to a competitive environment, there is literally no reason to keep it.

 

[Salt Kitchen]

i hope with this information given out the discussion about sleep in this thread can at least steam down. its been pretty back-and-forthy and quite tiring to read about. why not talk about some things like what you see on ladder with the NDLG ongoing or something?

I've been having a lot of fun and decent success with Mega Medicham. I'm not super huge into laddering or tournaments, I just play when I feel like it and play with the mons I want to try out while trying to keep a pretty decent understanding of the metagame, so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt.



Anyways, Mega Medicham. I had a team built with it around webs beforehand, but it wasn't very good. I got help from adem (very nice fellow) in the NDOU Discord and he helped improve my team with what I had in mind. This mon is just really fun to use in my opinion, it basically scratches that itch I have in my brain to just deal a bunch of damage without much setup, and it does that pretty well considering it has roughly 600 attack after mega evolving with pure power.

This guy shines against a ton of pretty relevant Pokemon with the right moveslots, especially if they're slower than Medicham-Mega. (just listing off Pokemon I see on the VR): ( and non-scarf if you have Ice Punch, , , , , , , , , ), causing them to burn their tera or switch out, and even Pokemon that are neutral to (or might even resist) its STAB combination have to be careful when switching in for these Pokémon, because even defensive Pokémon like and risk being 2HKO'd by Close Combat when switching in. Medicham can struggle against mons faster than it, but options like Fake Out/Bullet Punch are great for securing the KO on faster, weakened mons, or just coverage for Pokemon like and . Pairing Medicham-Mega with pursuit trappers and/or hazards is a great way to force momentum against a team, and I've had a lot of fun using this guy as of lately.

I don't normally make these type of posts, so feel free to yell at me for what I did wrong.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Alright, time to do something that's not on sleep.


The Icy Terror (That We Forgot About)

Weavile got its moment of glory in Sword/Shield before promptly dropping off the radar with the introduction of Chien-Pao. However, after Mega Weavile's ban, Weavile continued to languish, until now. Weavile deserves a resurgence, and I daresay, we've all been sleeping on it.

CHOICE BAND
Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Ice Shard

Choice Band Weavile is a damage machine. Triple Axel hits many things in the metagame, including the proliferating Dragon-types, for incredible damage, while being a Pursuiter is always nice for certain types of teams. Ice Shard is good priority, allowing you to pick off major threats when they're weakened enough. Knock Off provides constant progress, meaning that even if Weavile has a good counter (say, Dondozo), it's still putting in major work. Fighting-types like Urshifu-R pair incredibly well with this set, as they greatly appreciate Pursuit trapping and Weavile's constant pressure, while removing the Steel-types that plague Weavile's wallbreaking efforts like Mega Scizor.

An Example Team: Slash's DarkSpam (with edits) (pokepast.es)
This is a Darkspam team I made, with suggestions from thedeathsofbeings234 to improve it. CB Weavile functions as the main physical wallbreaker, and it takes care of pesky Grass-types in order to set up a SD Hisuian Samurott sweep late-game. The team, while lacking speed control, has three forms of priority in order to take care of faster threats. Dragonium Z Raging Bolt also appreciates the removal of Ground-types like Great Tusk that can switch in on Electric STAB and force it out.

SWORDS DANCE
Weavile @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Throat Chop
- Ice Shard

I was never really a fan of SD Weavile, as I felt it was just too difficult sometimes to get your SD with the high-powered offensive threats flying around, like Mega Scizor and Iron Boulder, that put a stop to Weav's shenanigans. This set can be devastating against bulkier teams trying to deal with Weavile through prediction, as this set removes the Choice lock while still keeping its great power.

WHY WEAVILE?
Weavile occupies a small but good niche in the metagame at the moment. It has a great Speed tier, outspeeding the likes of Iron Valiant, non-Booster Iron Boulder, Torn-T, and Meowscarada just to name a few things. Triple Axel is also incredibly spammable in the current metagame, as most Steel-types are deathly afraid of a CB Knock Off or a +2 Black Hole Eclipse / Throat Chop. Weavile decimates the very common balance core of Gliscor/Galarian Slowking with its STAB moves alone as well, letting it rip holes into unprepared teams. While it does struggle with priority, it's still a good choice that is rather underappreciated in today's metagame.

 

[Patar136]

I agree with halting the negativity on sleep because if it really is out of our control then we just need to halt the discussion until a decision is reached. Whatever happens happens and we can discuss things later on.

Several Pokemon I am pleased with in the meta game who need to be broken down include Offensive Boots Great Tusk, who is kind of making a comeback, defensive Landorus with Rocky Helmet, Leech Seed/Protect Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini who is a sleeper pick and Mega Diancie with four attacks.

One I aim to discuss in detail is this pair of weapons.



Aegislash has been discussed for a while in this post-Gholdengo world and while some have jabbed (no pun intended) that they are not the same thing, we should come to the consensus that they share similar qualities. They are both reasonably bulky, have great typing, good move pools and can fit on a wide variety of team styles. Aegislash may not be better than Gholdengo but there are a lot of sets I have seen put in results. Everything from Toxic/Kings Shield to Substitute/Three Attacks, to Swords Dance Physical sets, to mixed attacking sets and even Ghostium Z sets (which I lost to once.) Defensively, it is a great check to Tapu Lele as it resists both STABS and only has to be afraid of the rare shadow ball. It also beats Garganacl pretty easily with the right moves and can be very disruptive to face, especially at full HP. Substitute sets are very obnoxious too since it only needs two attacks a lot of the time, sometimes slotting in three at the expense of kings shield. Heck it can even pursuit trap things, lest we forget it has Pursuit. Tyranitar? Into Close Combat? Not on your life, especially with Tera to blank the dark weakness with fairy to shift from fighting immunity to fighting resistance while gaining a dark resistance.

This thing needs more highlight. It can cook unprepared teams. Just watch out for weather teams. This thing doesn't love those matchups.

 

[Aesiro13]

One I aim to discuss in detail is this pair of weapons.



Aegislash has been discussed for a while in this post-Gholdengo world and while some have jabbed (no pun intended) that they are not the same thing, we should come to the consensus that they share similar qualities. They are both reasonably bulky, have great typing, good move pools and can fit on a wide variety of team styles. Aegislash may not be better than Gholdengo but there are a lot of sets I have seen put in results. Everything from Toxic/Kings Shield to Substitute/Three Attacks, to Swords Dance Physical sets, to mixed attacking sets and even Ghostium Z sets (which I lost to once.) Defensively, it is a great check to Tapu Lele as it resists both STABS and only has to be afraid of the rare shadow ball. It also beats Garganacl pretty easily with the right moves and can be very disruptive to face, especially at full HP. Substitute sets are very obnoxious too since it only needs two attacks a lot of the time, sometimes slotting in three at the expense of kings shield. Heck it can even pursuit trap things, lest we forget it has Pursuit. Tyranitar? Into Close Combat? Not on your life, especially with Tera to blank the dark weakness with fairy to shift from fighting immunity to fighting resistance while gaining a dark resistance.

This thing needs more highlight. It can cook unprepared teams. Just watch out for weather teams. This thing doesn't love those matchups.

I wish I could back this statement up, but the sad truth is Aegislash is severely underwhelming in the damage department, basically requiring setup, but also barely has any utility moves to match its bulk, ultimately leading a middling Pokemon that only wins through surprise factor alone, and even that's not consistent.

 

[Dahness]

I wish I could back this statement up, but the sad truth is Aegislash is severely underwhelming in the damage department, basically requiring setup, but also barely has any utility moves to match its bulk, ultimately leading a middling Pokemon that only wins through surprise factor alone, and even that's not consistent.

This.All Aegi can do defensively is spam king shield and hope the opponent doesn't outsmart you.You are also vey weak to stuff like eq, which yea, u can tera flying for, but wasting your tera on this thing isn't even worth it imo.People started using it as a cope for the fact Gholdengo is gone, i kinda understood that as it was pretty good at stoping Sneasler, but after the Sneasler ban, i don't see why you would run this.I tried it a few times, but it's just soooo underwhelming.Maybe with its pre nerf stats it would have been a bit better, but as of now,i think this thing is very stupid.It's also setup fodder if u use king shield at the wrong time, literally giving your opponent 1 free turn of setup/ hazzards.
more like...no

 

[Salt Kitchen]

People started using it as a cope for the fact Gholdengo is gone

100%. It felt like people forgot that Gholdengo’s most well-known trait (Good as Gold) was forgotten about when people were trying to somehow compare Aegislash to Gholdengo.

This thing also has no recovery unless you give it Leftovers — in which case it becomes a Garganacl victim since you’re not running Covert Cloak , but you also really want to have Leftovers because it can get worn down pretty easily throughout the game.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Ugh i think orthworm has its place in the metagame. Huge physical bulk (more than skarmory by 5) and a different role. Lando (even SD) can't kill It, forced to U-turn and this thing has got Spikes so You punish all the switches. only 85 atk but ironpress is a strong thing that totally wears down the physical attackers of the tier. You can Go restochesto or wishmola for recovery, that isn't a problem anymore in the meta lol. It wouldve liked koff and toxic, but gen9 is what It is, so its options are limited. Loves to force in spinners, Tera fairy completely wrecks tusk, Tera poison is Also a good option If You Don't fear lele. Once the special attackers are down, let. It. Cook.
Edit: I'd add that I have been to the final of roomtours 3 times with orthworm, first time having connexion issues, next time being crited by darkrai and then just Lost to SUN cause well,

 

[about15guys]

Ugh i think orthworm has its place in the metagame. Huge physical bulk (more than skarmory by 5) and a different role. Lando (even SD) can't kill It, forced to U-turn and this thing has got Spikes so You punish all the switches. only 85 atk but ironpress is a strong thing that totally wears down the physical attackers of the tier. You can Go restochesto or wishmola for recovery, that isn't a problem anymore in the meta lol. It wouldve liked koff and toxic, but gen9 is what It is, so its options are limited. Loves to force in spinners, Tera fairy completely wrecks tusk, Tera poison is Also a good option If You Don't fear lele. Once the special attackers are down, let. It. Cook.
Edit: I'd add that I have been to the final of roomtours 3 times with orthworm, first time having connexion issues, next time being crited by darkrai and then just Lost to SUN cause well,

ok but why not just use skarmory at that point and not have to rely on rest or alomomola for support? It's got spikes, a strong bpress and access to roost as well as a valueable ground immunity and utility options such as whirlwind, defog or toxic.

also to keep this from being a oneliner, im gonna talk abt the other metal bird for a bit ()
honestly corviknight has been pretty solid. Spdef corvi is the way to go imo, since it lets you switch into a lot of stuff really easily and live a lot of things you shouldn't. switching into lele all day is already grounds to have niche use, but being a specially defensive steel type that also easily pivots is quite nice. Ghold being gone has done this mon nothing but favors, as now it can actually pretty reliably defog stuff and keep hazards off throughout a match. Pressure is niche but when you want it you're glad you have it, being able to pp stall dracos and the like is super nice. brave bird is a niche option to smack mons like tusk that try and use you as set fodder, or for catching the odd waterpon on the switch. It seems like a good option on balance teams since it's able to threaten fog while also being able to pivot into a breaker, making it not too passive

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

ok but why not just use skarmory at that point and not have to rely on rest or alomomola for support? It's got spikes, a strong bpress and access to roost as well as a valueable ground immunity and utility options such as whirlwind, defog or toxic.

also to keep this from being a oneliner, im gonna talk abt the other metal bird for a bit ()
honestly corviknight has been pretty solid. Spdef corvi is the way to go imo, since it lets you switch into a lot of stuff really easily and live a lot of things you shouldn't. switching into lele all day is already grounds to have niche use, but being a specially defensive steel type that also easily pivots is quite nice. Ghold being gone has done this mon nothing but favors, as now it can actually pretty reliably defog stuff and keep hazards off throughout a match. Pressure is niche but when you want it you're glad you have it, being able to pp stall dracos and the like is super nice. brave bird is a niche option to smack mons like tusk that try and use you as set fodder, or for catching the odd waterpon on the switch. It seems like a good option on balance teams since it's able to threaten fog while also being able to pivot into a breaker, making it not too passive

skarm can gET SD'd on and then lando Z-rocks and U are now Too weak to come ever again Except on an immunity. Clearly skarm can't Tera While keeping Ground immunity. Skarm's roost doesnt heal burn or para, and skarm is neutral to rocks. Skarm can whirlwind so imo skarm is better on hstack BUT orthworm can take on every spinner in the tier. Skarm has defined 4 slots While orthworm, as I recently experimented It, can run Sand tomb and I assure You It IS worth it. If the treads doesnt run steel beam/volt switch, If the great tusk is a problem, Tera fairy/poison and Sand tomb, then ID and bpress and, guess what, nO spinner. The mental trial that a setup-while-trapping-and-you-cant-do-no-shit is can Also Very well get You a forfeit win. Same goes for glimmora: mortal spin, earth power + double hazards is a totally free setup. Sand tomb can Also be some tool against The koff+haze+recover+toxic toxapex. orthworm, After skarm and dozo, sure is one of The best physical walls in The tier. Plus it's uncommon, You can surprise a whole team with it.

skarm can gET SD'd on and then lando Z-rocks and U are now Too weak to come ever again Except on an immunity. Clearly skarm can't Tera While keeping Ground immunity. Skarm's roost doesnt heal burn or para, and skarm is neutral to rocks. Skarm can whirlwind so imo skarm is better on hstack BUT orthworm can take on every spinner in the tier. Skarm has defined 4 slots While orthworm, as I recently experimented It, can run Sand tomb and I assure You It IS worth it. If the treads doesnt run steel beam/volt switch, If the great tusk is a problem, Tera fairy/poison and Sand tomb, then ID and bpress and, guess what, nO spinner. The mental trial that a setup-while-trapping-and-you-cant-do-no-shit is can Also Very well get You a forfeit win. Same goes for glimmora: mortal spin, earth power + double hazards is a totally free setup. Sand tomb can Also be some tool against The koff+haze+recover+toxic toxapex. orthworm, After skarm and dozo, sure is one of The best physical walls in The tier. Plus it's uncommon, You can surprise a whole team with it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2045299472 so I just wanted to reinforce the "can surprise a team" argument And just so everyone can easely notice It I have to make a new message. Just Look At the worm! it's so cute And strong

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2045408021 so people said that all sleep should be banned. Secret power IS sleep; change my mind

 

[Redgoop115]

I think something we should acknowledge, regardless of what we individually think about Sleep, is that this discussion is worthless if the Clause removal/Banning of Sleep moves is held by Council vote and not the people actually discussing Sleep.

Asking the players to discuss it, only to be decided by no one outside the Council, just initiates useless discussion on a subject that no one discussing can actually participate in, meaning it was either brought up to:

1) Influence some Council members on whether or not Sleep should stay.

2) Make sure that Banning Sleep didn't seem to come "out of nowhere", since the topic was brought up pre-ban.

Sleep should have a Suspect Test, or any conversation about it is useless. Many Council members have already admitted their mind is made up, so if we go with SV OU's way, we essentially rile the community up about something that was never in their control to begin with.

I don’t understand the implication here that allowing council members to be influenced by general opinion is a bad thing. If anything that is the whole point of having the discussion and is a positive.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I don’t understand the implication here that allowing council members to be influenced by general opinion is a bad thing. If anything that is the whole point of having the discussion and is a positive.

Also public opinion does influence council views. That's the entire reason why Ursaluna Blood Moon had suspect test instead of obvious quickban, as council over compensated with outrage from Volcarona quickban in OU.