Welcome to National Dex Overused! This thread will be used to discuss the National Dex OU metagame, letting users share theorymonning ideas, metagame observations, and sets! The format will follow standard OU clauses with the exception of allowing the transfer of omitted pokemon, moves and items into the Gen 9 competitive scene.
- Any Pokemon can use it
- You may change your Pokemon's type into a new pure type
- Your Pokemon will get a STAB boost to moves of its new Tera type while still retaining STAB boosts on moves matchings its original typing
- If you Terastilise into a type your Pokemon already had, then your Pokemon will have a 2.0 boost (like Adaptability) on attacks with that type
- You may Terastilise once per battle, and a Pokemon that Terastilises will keep it until the end of the battle
- The new move Tera Blast is base 80 and will match the Tera type chosen, while also turning physical or special, depending on whichever stat is higher
Garchomp turns into a Fire-Type = It becomes pure Fire-type and gets STAB on Fire-type, Ground, and Dragon-type attacks
Garchomp turns into a Ground-type = It becomes pure Ground-type and gets 2.0x STAB on Ground-type attacks, and the normal 1.5 STAB on Dragon-type attacks. Copied from this post
Hello, the National Dex Council voted on an unban slate prior to Generation 9's release. I kept the list of picks broad incase of a higher power level than anticipated, and here were the results:
From this list, Cinderace, Dragapult, Magearna, Tornadus-Therian, Zamazenta and Zamazenta-C have been freed.
We are also going to keep a close eye on Blaziken-Mega, Genesect, Kyurem-Black, Naganadel and Deoxys-Speed. Each week of the first month, we will be casting a vote on these where relevant, and we will ban these with a majority vote. These Pokemon are not exempt from faster quickbans if necessary.
Great choice to free. Elite fogger and pivot that is all so needed rn. The typical plot Z sets will also be great as per usual. Mage being freed is cool too, I suspect AV will be rly solid along with the other sets like Fairy Z or CM Shift Gear. Would love to hear thoughts on this. Wish everyone luck in their games! :)
reminder to not post random one-liners. Let your post talk about an aspect of the new metagame and generally have a decent amount of content.
Here's some talking points to get us started:
What are your thoughts on the unbanned Pokemon?
What do you think of the newly added pokemon from gen 9?
How do you think these pokemon will affect the metagame?
What do you think will get booted and why?
What pokemon do you think will rise to the forefront of the metagame?
alright lets talk about the funniest combo to grace pokemon : the shedshed strat.
Shed #1: Shed tail
Shed tail is a move that basically baton passes a substitute to a teammate for 50% of your health. Only available onl Cyclizard, which gets regenerator as a nice way of letting it use the move.
With air baloon, electric-tera shed has no weaknesses, so only passive damage can kill it.
Substitute is a move that shedinja, for obvious reasons, is not supposed to be able to use. By passing it a substitute, you eliminate status conditions and even ditto shenanigans from the equation. The only way to kill a substitute shedinja are:
Setting up hazards beforehand: you wont always, and cyclizard even gets rapid spin.
Sandstorm: Very specific
Hail, the move: I dont know if this sets up old hail or snow, but if it sets up old hail, its a stupidly specific counter.
Having pokemon that can sit on whatever offensive moves shed has and pp stall it: shed can fit a TON of pp on its sets, and between sd+ghost stab, sd+bug stab, toxic, weird coverage, and spamming random special moves, you probably wont have a hard wall.
Mold breaker: We all love the weird hammer girl, but thats not really a reasonable solution
Infiltrator+status: Literally just wisphex pult.
There is no reason anything like this should exist, but for the week it does, its super funny
Although I've lurked this forum for years I want to get a bit more involved in the community and competitive battling. This is my first real post in the forum so hopefully I made my thoughts clear.
1. Honestly, the Natdex team is unfathomably based for unbanning a metric ton of mons that will undoubtedly change the landscape of the natdex meta. Both Zamazenta forms will help combat what will be a heavily offensive meta through their bulk and, more importantly, their speed. Magearna will play an integral role in staving off some of the newly introduced monsters, notably Chien Pao and Naganadel. As great as its defensive atrributes are, Magearna remaining here will depend on whether this stronger meta will help combat the many Shift Gear Z-Move and Draining Kiss + Stored Power sets that ended up pushing it over the edge. Pokes such as Gholdengo and, to a lesser extent, Skeledirge, will hopefully help in this effort. Specs may not be as absurd due to the meta being as offense heavy as it will be. With the Protean/Libero nerf, Cinderace will be much more palatable to deal with, and may use Court Change more due to it. Its Bulk up + Normalium Z set got upgraded with Swords Dance, which is pretty cool. Tornadus-T, as always, will have an important place in the meta, but hopefully its NP + Flyinium Z set will be more manageable this time around.
2. In my opinion, Gen 9 released a ton of really strong mons; it's arguably the strongest generation we've ever seen since gen 5, sans mega evolution. Even though they aren't anywhere near the same level as ferrothorn and toxapex, some defensive pokes are of interest, such as Skeledirge, Gholdengo, Dondozo, Clodsire, and Scream Tail. Ting-Lu deserves a special mention since it's bulk is absurd. Despite its middling defensive typing and lack of reliable recovery, I feel it has the tools necessary to be a solid defensive presence whether it is as an AV user, phazer, or defensive hazard setter. The offensive pokes seem much stronger, the strongest ones by far being Flutter Mane and Chien-Pao, but Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle, Meowscarada, Palafin, Chien-Pao, and Chi-Yu will all be incredibly strong presences and will be major contributors to what will be a heavily offensively-inclined meta.
Great Tusk in particular looks very promising, especially on Sun teams, due to its rock resist, ability to reliably spin hazards due to its incredible coverage/offensive presence, and guaranteed attack boost in Sun. Once it's in, it'll be VERY tough to pivot around its 120BP moves and what is possibly the perfect complement to its STAB combo: Ice Spinner. Equipped with and attack boost from Sun and a speed boost from Rapid spin, it'll be a very tough mon to contend with without strong choice scarfers. Since most of such attacks are physical, most priority attacks bounce off from its amazing 115/131 bulk. Additionally, its movepool will ensure that it'll be very tough to override sun without losing a pokemon, since all of the primary weather setters, which are T-Tar, Pelipper, Slowking, and A-Tales, fall victim to its STAB combo and auxillary moves such as Thunder Fang and Megahorn. It seems like an overlooked, yet very threatening mon that'll undoubtedly have an important niche in this meta.
4. For the unbans, Naganadel is easily the most banworthy. It may be tougher for it to find opportunities to boost in this meta, but once it does, it's nigh unstoppable for many of the same reasons during its brief tenure in gen 7 OU. Genesect, Kyurem-Black, and Mega Blaziken are more contentious and may or may not get the immediate banhammer depending on the trajectory of the meta. Deoxys-Speed is by far the least likely of the quicktests to go due to HDB, but will be quite important as a dedicated hazard setter and/or answer to the many fast pokes introduced.
For the new mons, Flutter Mane is easily the most cracked and is by far the most likely to get quickbanned out of everything in the current meta. It's basically Spectrier on crack, which was slated to remained banned. Chien Pao is basically a better Weavile and, while not as cracked as Flutter Mane, shares its base speed of 135 and has everything it needs to decimate both offense and defense alike.
5. It's unclear whether or not they'll be banworthy with Z-crystals, but Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon will undoubtedly be the most influential Paradox pokes through their excellent stat distributions and movepools.
Iron Valiant in particular can boost its atk, sp. atk, or speed with an appropriate boosting nature without compromising its EVs. SD, CM, mixed, and even Choiced sets w/ Trick can easily make appearances. The aforementioned three look especially threatening with Z-moves under electric terrain! Assuming it remains, it could viably run shadow sneak with a ghost tera type. Lack of a pivot move, priority barring shadow sneak, and a strong physical Fairy STAB move are notable shortcomings, and while its speed is great, many new mons and unbans outspeed it. It's unclear whether or not these drawbacks are profound enough, and whether or not it remains depends on how easily the meta can check its many sets and how unforgiving it is if players assume the wrong one, but it'll be quite excellent regardless.
Despite having fewer sets, Roaring Moon looks to be quite amazing as well. Between its great 119 base speed and free boost in sun, Roaring Moon will be an excellent DD user. It could also be a cool offensive pivot with Jaw Lock + U-turn, which effectively guarantees momentum vs. slower, passive pokes. Assuming Terastallization remains, it could be an excellent lure against fairies with a steel or poison tera type. 4MSS can prove troubling on DD sets, since u need Fire Fang, EQ, and Iron Head to hit corv, pex, and fairies respectively.
Overall, this is easily the strongest non-Uber meta we've ever seen, and it'll be interesting to see how the meta shakes out with all the strong new pokes, unbans, and nerfs to most recovery moves. Cheers to a new generation!
I tried out a Shedinja team and it's completely insane, all offensive threats are completely invalidated besides Kyurem-Black and on teams with Tyranitar, all it takes for Cyclizar to get 1 free turn with no hazards up and you've won the game, it's not a simple turn 1 instawin but it's basically baton pass on steroids, you get lucky once and you win, can be checked by phazing moves, with Mega-Sableye to block hazards, it is very difficult to deal with Shedinja + Cyclizar, if they KO your Mega-Sableye with the hazard setter, Cyclizar is in and can taunt/shed tail to Shedinja, here are some example battles of what you might expect to have happen:
Imo the best Shedinja moveset to run here is actually Secret Power + Night Slash + Toxic, the only think I can see beating this is a rocky helmet Gholdengo, having high PP moves just lets you outstall anything that would otherwise wall you and Toxic lets you deal with ghosts without being vulnerable to people dancing around between immunities until you're out of pp (Yes, I lost to that when I had a different set)
Basically if you don't have Tyranitar or a Mold Breaker mon then you're most likely going to lose but if you have Tyranitar then you basically get a free win because most of the team only exists to help Shedinja setup and Tyranitar hard counters it (Species clause means you can't run three Shedinja, one with loon, one with boots and one with goggles)
Banning this won't make it go away, it'll just send it to National Dex AG where it'll likely still work, it may even work better due to the primals scaring Tyranitar and Gholdengo away, also in NDAG, Shedinja gets to use Baton Pass so it can't be walled and can just pass +6 Atk +6 Spe (from Agility) to something more threatening and/or use it to gain momentum
Ace is probably fine now, since even though it got SD, it ain’t usin it with Libero, since it becomes pure normal. Pult is still probably broken, Mag will always be broken. Torn-T is hype, since I don’t think it was broken in gen 8, and gen 9 it’s probably not broken either. Hyped for that. Base Zama losing 10 Atk and it’s ability getting nerfed to the ground sucks for it, but it means it may be okay in OU now. Zama-C is in a similar boat, except that boat is made of steel but can’t hold an item. We’ll see how this develops, but Pult and Mag probably need to go.
Besides the obviously dumb new mons like Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, and Iron Valiant, Gholdengo looks cool. Aegislash typing, recover, spin and fog blocking, dumb coverage, NP, yeah he got the full package.
The other ruin legendaries look pretty decent too, but none are as dumb as Chien-Pao. Fire fish looks pretty dumb too, but it’s more of a scarfer. Tapus are here too, so dark types should be easier to check.
Other than that, Gigachad Dolphin and Clodsire look pretty good.
Just realized I answered a lot of the questions above, so uh have fun with the meta, spam Ditto, and good luck beating Tera Shedinja.
While i didnt try the elec balloon shedinja thing, one excellent shedinja teratyping that should be mentionned is Ground, as it is immune to Pursuit and Sand while having a very broken defensive profile and does not carries any of the three Steel weaknesses - which is something lot of stuff could tend to carry coverage for. Only thing left you have to do is to cover anything that can't hit it in your 5 remaining teams slot - which is honestly ridiculous considering how much things it is able to wall. Of course you could choose the typing of your shedinja depending of what your team need - which makes it potentially even more frustrating to gameplan against as long as its teratype isnt revealed - but i think ground might be the most splashable one.
I wanted to mention . He is already a great mon in competitive play who works really well on it's own. But tapu koko realized that he can provide so much more with his new group of Paldean friends. The thing that sets Tapu Koko apart from other weather setters/terrain setters is that it is a fast pivot, meaning you can switch out and not risk losing your terrain setter. There also aren't many terrain setters competing vs it so far giving it a free rain to provide Electric terrain for its teammates.
is the fastest pokemon from Paldea in this chaotic start of gen9 and combined with the speed boost that comes from Quark Drive under Electric Terrain, you outspeed the whole format (612 speed at +1). Even many Chlorophyll and Swift swim users can't outspeed it unless you have a base speed of 90. Not to mention the unstoppable coverage that is Hydro Pump, Freeze Dry, Ice Beam and a Tera Blast or pivot move.
has an amazing typing and relatively good speed, you also outspeed most of the format except for other Paradox pokemon like or . But you can still hit with Shadow Sneak doing around 75% with a . Generally speaking this breaks everything if you let it set up with a Swords Dance as well.
And of course the other fast future paradox pokemon , and can boost their speed too from the Electric Terrain. Generally with a weather based or terrain based team, you don't actually have a wide variety in typing for your abusers. Swift swimmers are almost entirely made out of water types, Chlorophyll users are made out of grass types and so on. But with Quark Drive you have a wide variety of typings and uses. You can build a diverse offensive core that let's it have it's speed or any other stat boosted from Quark Drive. is also just on steroids which gives you great opportunites for hazard control.
I've had lots of fun using this team to get high up on the ladder.
If someone wants to try it out and change things go ahead. (Yes i used Sandstorm on Dragonite just for Shedinja lol)
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Stealth Rock
With all the brokens running around, I think this might be a defensive core that can at least soft check maybe 50% of them whilst providing ample ways to facilitate your own breakers. Of course this still needs to be paired with ditto and kyurem-b due to the overwhelming strength of some breakers as well as the overwhelming brokenness of shedinja but so do all teams.
Tyranitar acts as a check to FLUTTER MANE (absurd) and naganadel whilst providing sand in order to help out vs electric shed cheese strats.
Magearna is an ok check to monsters like kyurem black, nasty plot deoxys speed and chien-pao which can also pivot in your own breakers and set up spikes. It might be worth giving a bit of physical defense investment to better take on the ice-types but I haven't tried it yet.
Gastrodon sets up rocks so tyranitar is free to maximise its special bulk with AV whilst providing a water immunity to help against palafin as well as a ground immunity not shredded by tera ice regieleki.
Would like to see what other people think of these 3 and how other people have adapted around the brokens in early gen 9 meta
Iron Hands @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 116 Atk / 252 Def / 140 SpD
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Swords Dance
Magearna @ Assault Vest
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Fleur Cannon
- Iron Head
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot / Ice Beam
The core right here is capable of answering most of the broken mons in the metagame right now, especially when paired with sufficient speed control. Ting-Lu is an absolutely incredible mixed wall capable of dealing with even the likes of +2 Z Naganadel, and is capable of throwing out offensive pressure from Spikes + Ruination. Ting-Lu is also capable of answering the several jacked up power level Fire-type and Ghost-type wallbreakers. It is also the core's best lead into Shed Tail abusers. Magearna helps cover for Ting-Lu's major weaknesses as a Fairy-type answer and stops it from being overwhelmed by special wallbreaker stacking, and also provides pivoting. Notably, Magearna is a solid answer to Flutter Mane, which is otherwise capable of breaking through this core. Finally, Iron Hands provides an almost unstoppable blanket check to nearly every physical threat in the game, including several other Ground-Tera users such as Roaring Moon. Additionally, Iron Hands is already a decent wallbreaker, so it helps the core be less passive and doesn't invite special attacking threats in as much. Water-Tera seems awkward on Iron Hands, but it allows it to deal with Palafin rain much easier.
Sandstorm on the Ting-Lu here is specifically for Tera Shed.
Sand in my opinion is an amazing weather thanks to how much of the meta it naturally counters. Now of course, this team isn't perfect (Iron bundle answer where???) but I am very proud of this team, as it helped me peak to the top.
Tyranitar - Tyranitar is a secondary sand setter whose main goal is to pursuit trap otherwise annoying pokemon like flutter mane, lele, etc. It also takes great advantage of spikes and serves as a general wallbreaker of the team. This also helps limit the Deo-S lead to only one layers of hazards which is helpful, while providing sand to neuter non Steel/Ground Shed. You can go Mega with DD, which allows you to take advantage of Non-Spirit Break Grimmsnarl leads, however I preferred banded on this team.
Excadrill - The bread and butter of this team. Under sand this pokemon can outspeed a slew of offensive threats even after a boost, and also counterleads wonderfully into Glimmora (EQ --> Spin) Now there are some mons that outspeed even sand rush Drill, like Quark Flutter Mane, Hawlucha, and Quark Iron Bundle, but this is still a great mon, especially with Steelium still nuking a lot of mons.
Houndstone - Yea this mon is silly. Provides a Spin Blocker which is very useful since we have all sorts of hazards on this team, but it's main thing is Last Respects, which allows this mon to be a great Midgame to Lategame cleaner. The set was originally banded, however at the time I was fighting lots of sucker punch kingambit and ran this set. WoW can cripple pokemon that'd pose problematic, while sub can take advantage of forced switches or sucker predictions. Press is there for the aforementioned kingambit, but also for other mons like Chien-Pao.
Hippowdown - This mon is here as our main sand setter, getting out rocks and tanking general special hits. This pokemon helps against mons like Koko, Torkoal, Alolatales (in denying the veil), Dracozolt, etc. It's passivity is a major problem, however I have yet to find a suitable replacement, so feel free to make an adjustment.
Toxapex - Despite the Offensive power creep and the recover nerf, this pokemon is still a silly ass mon. Toxic Spikes can help in the long run vs setup sweepers, haze + recover is obligatory for stopping threatening sweepers, while scald is there for the scald burn fishing, once again typical pex stuff. Tera Normal is for opposing Houndstone (because surprise surprise this dog is annoying to deal with)
Skarmory - Provides a ground immunity for the team, which is damn near needed with the amount of Paradox Donphans around, and cheeses Maushold incredibly well. This also provides spikes to help muscle through bulkier mons, while the ID + Press can make this a potent wincon, especially against more physically oriented teams.
Anyways, I made all this just say... get shed/tera tf outta here bro.
In all seriousness I've been enjoying the meta, there's definitely some problematic mons but I'm sure that it'll be worked out as the generation continues. Can't wait to see where this goes :) This is my first time posting a team and even making it to top 1 so I'm not that great at team analysis, but regardless I hope you all enjoy!
With Terastalization and Shed Tail in the metagame, Shedinja effectively becomes an unkillable monster. Electric Tera + Air Balloon has been its main set, and with it, it has forced several defensive Pokemon to start running weather setting moves on their moveset, such as Sandstorm Ting-Lu. With Substitute from Shed Tail, Shedinja is also capable of blocking status that would otherwise impede it from walling the metagame. Shedinja has generally been regarded as uncompetitive in this metagame, and as a result, it has been banned.
so after playing a lot of this meta (already have a 100 games or close), i think it's time i sum up my thoughts on it.
A/ BROKEN STUFF THAT NEEDS TO BE WATCHED CLOSELY :
to me by far the most concerning thing about the metagame and the new gen in general. I get it can be appreciated, and i would be lying if I was saying i didnt enjoyed it a bit, simply because of how much creativity and viability it adds to the tier, but to me this mech is just uncompetitive, and the first reason i'd like to give is simply that you cannot grab any informations on it ingame, nor you can guess or predict who's gonna terastalize. Some could say it's a bit early to say so, as the tier is v young, but to me the fact a dark/dragon type is able to win against a fairy type by changing its typing freely while being able to use an item is just wrong. I've seen people comparing this to Z moves, and to me they are two completely differents things, because Z-moves aren't as free as Terastallization. They have some counterparts, being a one-time thing first, and second forcing you to carry the crystal. Add to this the fact the z move, by its item nature, is therefore something you can scout for, and they are completely different to me. Here, not only you can tera without any counterpart, you are also not forced to use tera blast while terastalizing. You can simply change your typing, not because it gives you another stab but to influence how to deal w your pokemon and to me it's just simply wrong. We are not only talking about something that can lure in people, we are also talking of something that can be a match turn over simply because what's supposed to check you simply cannot anymore. To me, Terastallization is the perfect combination between Hidden Power and Dynamax. Hidden Power, although now thanks to years of games knowledge can be scouted, is by nature something you cannot grab informations on without risk. However, the move itself is pretty weak, and requires specific IVs spreads, meaning it won't have that much influence nowadays. Although some could say Terastallization has nothing to do with Dynamax, to me they are pretty similar in how they works. You change something on your Pokemon, Dynamax influence your stats, Tera influence your typing and your STAB. While some could say Dynamax is more broken because of the Max-Move, Tera last after you switch out. It last way longer than it. So imo Terastallization shares a lot with Dynamax and not for the best.
To sum up my thoughts on the mechanic, being able to change a game that freely, without any counterpart, and without the possibility to have infos ingame is just wrong. Dynamax was banned for that type of reasons. It's not something competitive to me. I get it's a bit early to say so, but to me Terastallization must be suspected at some point throught the game. Not saying it should be immediatly, but it must be watched.
2- Paradox Forms In General
What bothers me with Paradox forms in general is how unbalanced they are. They are simply better version of Ultra-Beasts, simply because of how works their Ability. The given stat boost is something that is counted differently, that is NOT AFFECTED by Unaware and is activated either by an item (Energy Boost) or by Sun/E-Terrain is just way too good imo. To me, all paradox forms can be good simply because of that stat boost. Moreover, if you center your team around E-Terrain/Sun, you can simply not use the Energy Boost, and have an held item. For example, Iron Thorn can hold a Choice Band and receive an Attack Boost thanks to the Terrain. For now those have not been implemented in the calc yet, but it sounds already absurd. Even something like Brute Bonnet or Scream Tail can be good, even if they don't look good I'll admit. In short, Paradox forms in general are really strong, and if we weren't able to see all of them performing it's because of what will follow bellow
3- Flutter Mane
I dont think I have to introduce the mon, looking at how great it did recently i bet everyone knows about it. What forces me to do a separate post about it is simply because this mon gives me Spectrier vibe. A fast, strong glass cannon ghost type. And although it doesn't have the ability to just snowball a game if you lack a dark type, it has some great stuffs in its favor. Its ability giving it a boost, and it has a better typing and movepool than Spec (but that's not that hard). What really makes it broken are imo two moves. The first is Substitute. While it can seems weird that i'm speaking first about sub, it's because of how the HO/Climat/Terrain fest interact. Often, you'll have a huge reward by simply leading w Flutter-mane, clicking sub and then going on a rampage because either the opponent doesn't have a physical priority or because its team lacks proper answers to it under sub. It's also a good way to deal w the blobs, w a sub cm set for example. Second is Terablast. While using it w a Fighting Terastallization, you now have, amongst your STABs, the most broken dual STAB ever made, Fight/Ghost, as it's unresisted by litteraly all mon that are currently in the game (I don't count Hisui Zoroark, as it's not released yet). Alongside this, you have one of the best offensive type, the fairy type. So to me the mon, even outside of sun, is just an absurdity. I really hope it's gonna be suspect tested and banned / quickbanned asap.
4- Roaring Moon
Same thing as above, I don't think I really need to introduce that mon. It's really strong, has good setups move, a good typing and a broken ability. The mon can have multiples sets / can see its statline being influenced to either have an Attack Boost (prefered when you want a DD set) or a Speed Boost (prefered when you use a Choice Band set with U-Turn). But what really makes it broken, bar all I've mentionned, is Terastallization. The fact you can change your type to Steel/Poison to deal with Fairy types is way to good imo. It's a simple case of yes this mon should have been checked by a Fairy Type and now it does not. And unlike Z-move that just erase the mon, Tera Steel/Poison allows it to turn your fairy type as a settup fodder and therefore to snowball really quickly a game. You can even play Substitute Ddance with 2 Attacks (id go w Crunch/Earthquake) to prevent the fairy type throwing a status move. In short, the mon is really really good to me and should be at least suspect tested
So this is mainly just Dracovish but I can pivot, I'm not forced to hold a choice item, I have a better support movepool and I have a Priority move. To me you don't even need coverage on that thing, it's just absurdely strong, and Terastallization doesn't help to check this, esp in a time where the meta is so aggressive. I had the best success with Taunt 3 Attacks, the 3 Attacks being Flip Turn, Wave Crash and Jet Punch. The only drawback I can see so far for this mon is just the recoil from Wave Crash and not liking hazards, in short his staying power, but the mon has a really good bulk and boots are still in the game. The only way to properly deal with it is to kill it before it can do anything but well either it's scarf or either you switch out so well. In short, hard to deal with and always make progress.
6- Gholdengo + Glimmora
This core is busted, and it's really insane only a few people theorycrafted on it so far. Goldhengo is just less good aegi, some could say, but it has very strong arguments. First : a good steel STAB w Make It Rain, second, a very good SpA, and third, good enough bulk and speed. But what makes it insanely broken is its ability. In short, Good as Gold prevent status moves, including Defog, Taunt, Parting Shot, etc.... So this basically prevents you from removing hazards. Glimmora, on the other hand, was meant to be a Suicid Lead. Really good ability that setup T-Spikes on if you get hit by a Physical hit, a spin move (Mortal Spin) that goes through ghost types and can poison, litteraly all hazards bar sticky webs, and Explosion + Memento. The core can only be countered by Magic Bounce users, but well out of the 6 usable, 4 are getting owned by Gholdengo and the last 2 hates being poisonned. So definitely something that needs to be kept on the radar.
In short, Weavile but better speed and better ability (bulk is middish on both part anyway). I won't go in more details on it, mainly because everyone knows how this mon work but i'd like to emphasis on something people did not explore that much. What makes it really strong imo, is Ice Spinner. It's a 80 Power Ice move w perfect accuracy that cancels Terrain. This can do massive damages to Elec-Terrain teams, as the only thing in that playstyle that can deal w it is Iron Bundle, but you can just erase it after a SD w a Tera Dark boosted Sucker Punch. So this mon basically counter a whole playstyle, in top of being ridiculously good.
8- Cyclizar + Dragonite
Shed Tail is really absurd, and this mon was meant to be a support : really good movepool, really good speed, and regenerator. Rest is pretty mid tho. The mon is however extremely good, just because of Shed Tail, which should be kept on the radar because of how good it has proven to be so far. Outside of that I don't think Cyclizar should be banned, it's a good mon but not broken and will definitely fall when ND Low Tiers will appear because of how absurd is the power creep in this gen. Dragonite has showed a rise in the past hours because of how Shed Tail works. You pass to Dnite a sub that keeps the Multiscale, meaning it's way easier to do and ensure Dnite can use Dragon Dance. Paire it w Tera Normal Extreme Speed and you'll have something nearly unstoppable without an Unaware. Personnaly I don't think Dragonite should ever be banned, but the interaction with Shed Tail makes it way to good to stay in the tier imo, meaning Shed Tail must be suspected/quick banned.
9- Screen HO
With Grimmsnarl optaining Parting Shot, it has never been so easy to use screens, and with all the setup mons that can be viable thanks to Terastallization, to me the playstyle is just unhealthy, as there is few ways to deal w the like of KB under screens. I really think Light Clay should be tossed away, but that's just how i feel about it.
B/ STUFF CURRENTLY UNDER THE RADAR BUT MUST NOT BE IGNORED :
I bet the ppl who are gonna read that post probably have no clue on what this mon does, so let me introduce it to you : normal type, pretty similar to cinccino in terms of stat although it has a less good attack, and Technician. What does makes this broken imo ? It's because of 2 moves. The first is Population Bomb, a 10 hit move with 90% accuracy and 20 Power, meaning it's affected by Technician. It also doesn't work like Triple Axel, as each move has 90% to not land but if you don't land one you will still keep attacking. The second is Tidy Up, that clear hazards on your fields and also is a simily Dragon Dance. So that means this mon can effectively setup and then kill everything w the 10 hit move. Why ? Because King's Rock is still authorized. I didnt run calcs but if the 10 hits land I bet you'll get flinch 99% of the time. Another item it can use, although it will make it only good in lower tiers and not just uncompetitive and boring is Wide Lens. In short, the mon itself isnt as annoying as it seems but King's Rock plus what i've mentionned really make it uncompetitive in the current meta. Oh and having Terastallization in top of that really helps it beating what it can't beat, so as making Population Bomb better in case you Terastalize it in Normal.
2- Deoxys Speed
So far it has only been used as a lead, and it's extremely good at it. But ND Mono showed me this can be way more than just a fast mon that setup stuffs. It has Nasty Plot, a large movepool, one of the best speeds in the game and overall pretty ok stats. It also has access to Psycho Boost which is a really strong STAB, Z-Moves and even Terastallization to be even more deadly. I putted this on a separate part compared to the rest of the unbanned because it's something we do see but I believe isn't used to its full potential.
The Chien-Pao Special part. So far it didnt do great mainly because of its middling speed but I believe this mon can be banworthy at some point, especially w Tera and if it's banned, Z-Moves. Being probably one of the strongest Special attacker, having access to Nasty Plot, a good double type, and the ability to influence its typing and having another STAB thanks to Tera/having a one time nuke thanks to Z-moves really makes me think this should be suspected through the generation.
Nobody outside of R8 ever talked or mentionned it, but it's another direct consequence of Terastallization. Giving Eleki a way to hit ground types isnt good, and it gives a powerfull tool to E-Terrain teams. I won't say more about it, mainly because I think everyone knows what's the problem is with this mon, but it should be watched.
5- Unbanned stuff
This is just a short mention to everything that was released. Today we can't really see how they will adapt but to me each one is still banworthy, because the few pool of mon gen9 provided won't be enough to make them less broken, bar tornadus-therian that could probably adapt. To me the worst rn are Kyurem Black and Genesect, as both are just so annoying to deal with right now, especially w the new Tera mech that gives Kyurem a STAB on Fusion Bolt and Genesect a STAB on Extreme Speed.
C/ GOOD CURRENT CORES/MONs :
Sand received really greats tools this gen, with the addition of Houndstone and Last Respect. It also has overall a really good MU against what's good right now, being able to tear down Elec Terrain/Sun/Shed stall if well built, and also has good MU overall against HO. The playstyle lost some versatility w the healing move nerf, as I believe Pex is a staple in that kind of squad, and Pex is well less good because of that nerf, meaning going full fat sand isnt something that good. It also have a harder time dealing w Roaring Moon, but I still think Sand is the best anti-meta pick right now.
With Flutter mane being impossible to deal with, and w that many glass canon that revealed themselve, Scizor has a good spot at being the best current mega-evolution thanks to Bullet Punch. I think the best set rn would be a set that features Sand Tomb and Quick Attack, as Quick attack really helps M-Blazi MU, esp after you setup. To me Scizor will be a staple in the incoming day, although Chien-Pao using Tera Dark makes it harder to deal with.
Although unexplored so far in ND, Hail has been doing p well in OU right now, with the rework. I believe it can do good in ND, so i'll just give it a mention.
Lydia once told me this is Ferrothorn/Tapu-Fini/Tyranitar and probably something else in a single slot and I do agree. This mon as a defensive mon is really good at role compression, as it can setup hazards and trap thanks to sand tomb + Ruination. It also has a great defensive statline and seems almost unkillable, although its typing is kinda meh.
5- Paradox Donphan
Both Donphan's new forms are great mons. Great Tusk have insane STABs, really good physical bulk and great offensive typing while its counterpart has a great defensive typing, good balanced statline and a better speed stat. I believe both will do great in ND, although Great Tusk might need a suspect at some point, mon hits really really hard compared to its counterpart.
The weirdest mon so far, gotta state by saying first the fact Supreme Overlord isn't showed is a bit annoying for calc and also it bypass Unaware, meaning we have found the best stallbreaker ever made lol. It has a stellar attack stat, very good bulk, and a good new stab in Kottow Claw. Only drawback is the speed, meaning if you wanna win with it you need to outplay with Sucker Punch, but i think the mon can have a great potential with a Choice Band set like its previous form.
I'm no expert here, in fact I barely talk in this site, but I think sun deserves an honorable mention. With the new monstrous paradox forms Roaring Moon and Flutter Mane, as well as a new chrolophyll sweeper in Scovillain, and the unbanning of M-Blaziken, sun has seen a lot of play, and a to lot of success at that. And while I do think Flutter Mane does need to be banned, and M-Blaziken and Roaring Moon should be on the lookout, Sun still seems viable, possibly more than Rain(payback from bw), Not to mention another Chlorophyll mon is on the horizon, Hisui-Liligant, with a 105 speed and attack, and of course, Victory Dance, a physical version of Quiver Dance. So with that, I hope I was able to give its mentioning well.
I have come to grace the metagame with my subpar thoughts and feelings about everything. I'm still like, incredibly lost, and I have no idea what's been going on with other stuff like Pokemon UNITE taking up my time, so take these things with a HEAVY grain of salt.
I think this move, as others have expressed, is NOT okay. It makes it entirely too easy to enable some of the most broken threats of the tier and as we saw with Shedinja, it took Electric Tera + Air Balloon to a whole other level. I'm currently building some braindead HO and I think with how Substitute interacts with stuff like Multiscale on Dragonite, hyper offense teams using it will be a force to reckoned with. My suggested solution is probably to test the move or quickban it at most; it's available on more than one Pokemon (Cyclizar and Orthworm), so banning Cyclizar does nothing on its own.
Flutter Mane and Friends
The paradox Pokemon are probably some of the most talked about forces of the metagame. Flutter Mane is, of course, at the top of discussion. Literally everyone has already talked about it so I have little else to say, but I'm pitching in to agree with them. No reason to keep this Pokemon around, fast and strong Ghost-type with very little checks if any, can brute force past them with Terastal in either Ghost/Fairy, has Taunt to potentially break apart fatter playstyles (which I'll talk about next), etc. Just what everyone else has been saying really, nothing much. The other paradox forms are also to be looked at, as well. I think the ones I'm most worried about are Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, and Iron Bundle. Iron Valiant has an insane offensive presence with the coveted Fairy/Fighting STAB combination. It'll function well on Screens Tapu Koko/Grimmsnarl teams; having to use Booster Energy on the latter isn't an issue at all, either, as I can see it being hard to force out with SD STABs + coverage like Zen Headbutt and Knock Off. Roaring Moon is INCREDIBLY scary with Steel Tera, I'm NGL. You'd probably have to use something like Ting-Lu or Unaware Clodsire to reliably check it. Otherwise, it just shmixes up its would-be checks like physically defensive Magearna and beats them with ease. Pokemon like Iron Hands probably don't even reliably check it if paired with Shed Tail, but that goes for most things. Overall just a scary, broken sweeper that abuses Tera (ban the mon don't ban tera pls...). Iron Bundle has an incredibly good Speed tier that lets it viably run Choice Specs. It also has perfect coverage in Hydro Pump, Freeze Dry, Flip Turn, and a Tera type of your choice (maybe Fighting? no idea yet). Booster Energy + Quark Drive in Speed is probably fine as well, as it outspeeds Flutter Mane (!!!) and is still incredibly strong if you use Modest, though Timid would be preferred to outspeed Timid Protosynthesis Speed Flutter Mane. Iron Treads and Great Tusk are also looking to be pretty difficult to switch into in their respective field conditions, and even outside of them they're able to be solid offensive utility Pokemon with access to Rapid Spin. Not worth looking at as banworthy but definitely should be considered on some teams RN.
I resonate with fatter playstyles a lot, and Spikes balances are no different. If anything, they're probably REALLY good if built well IMO. With how easy it is to keep Spikes up in Pokemon like Gholdengo, Skeledirge, and Iron Hands, they could potentially be a very good archetype. I think the big winners of the increased Spikes distribution are Magearna, Gastrodon, Clodsire, and Mega Blaziken, to name a few.
Magearna @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Fleur Cannon
- Pain Split
Magearna has an insane defensive profile as we all know, being a great check to Pokemon like Tyranitar, Kyurem-B (unless Electric Tera lol), and Chien Pao, getting many opportunities to set up Spikes freely. It's also incredibly valuable in that it has Volt Switch, letting it potentially rack up even more passive damage and pivot into your brokens freely (though I think with Clodsire being as popular has it is from my experience might just make this worse in general). I think this will be one of the premier Spikes setters on fat teams, with some people like Chris already exploring it. Here is a team I made with Spikes Magearna. It probably sucks but I've been getting consistent results with it on ladder, I think.
Gastrodon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
Gastrodon feels to be in a similar spot as it was last generation; it's an incredibly solid role-compressing Pokemon that provides invaluable utility with its Electric immunity, Storm Drain to stave off Pokemon like Douse Drive Genesect, and being an overall solid check to a ton of special attackers and annoying Pokemon like Corviknight and Iron Moth. I think it's in a similar vein with Magearna, as well, using its incredibly solid defensive typing and bulk to Spike up and spread passive damage. It's probably gonna compete with Clodsire a little as a Spikes setter (or you could just not run the move at all and go like, SR Gastro + Spikes Mage which I did in the team above, since I think they have solid synergy), but this is a fine set regardless IMO.
As for the others I mentioned prior to this, I brought up Skeledirge because it threatens and takes advantage of opposing entry hazard setters / removers like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and Magearna, being given free turns to click Will-O-Wisp and spread further passive damage. IDT it really checks much besides Mega Scizor and other miscellaneous setup sweepers, but its going to be an annoyance regardless. Gholdengo is valuable in that it blocks Defog (and avoids other status moves as well). While Corviknight and the rare Defog Tornadus-T are the only ones I've seen being used ATM as Defoggers, this is still really huge for hazard stacking teams. It also has the coveted Ghost/Steel typing which lets it block Rapid Spin (though it loses to both Paradox Donphans lol), and access to Nasty Plot / Hex / Thunder Wave / Make it Rain, etc. I think NP or utility sets will be good on Spikes teams since it has a good offensive presence and checks Pokemon like Iron Valiant and can cripple KissPower Magearna and potentially even Steel Tera to live a hit from Flutter Mane and hit back hard. Mega Blaziken doesn't have to be used on fat, but it abuses Spikes regardless, which isn't anything new considering it was allowed in a past metagame and did similar things back then. Clodsire is an incredibly fat blanket check to most Pokemon, namely Roaring Moon, Palafin (if Water Absorb), and Iron Valiant. It's going to be a really valuable asset on Stall teams with this defensive presence, IMO.
Palafin seems to be pretty dumb; have yet to use it myself but I think we HAVE to look at this at some point. Bulk Up set are insane and should not be overlooked in the slightest.
Mega Scizor is probably the best Mega we have RN. It just revenge kills so many of the brokens like Chien Pao and Flutter Mane, with it also retaining its defensive profile, staying at a similar spot in this metagame.
Tera is fine but I think we have some really standout abusers that make it really obnoxious to deal with. We were one step in the right direction with banning Shedinja, and I think we should continue to do this with future brokens.
My reaction after realizing Mega-Blaziken is unbanned.
But in all seriousness, I seriously believe that the chicken will FINALLY have a valuable place this gen in nat dex and hopefully regular blaziken falls to UU and dominates the tier with its z-rock/terra-electric/dark sets, but I guess we'll see how this goes in the coming months. I've played around 50 games now with mega-blaziken and I gotta say, it is solid on both HO and balance and might even have a place on some stall teams as a balance breaker, but so far from what I've observed, its not too OP, at least not yet anyways, since you could bluff mega and screw your opponent with tera-electric/dark on walls like slowbro, toxapex, fini, etc. I'm actually looking forward to this gen, despite the initial disdain I felt toward it and the new mechanics, I'm actually having more fun that I did back in gen 5 and ironically this generation reminds me a lot of gen 5 from back in the day.
I do not consider myself that good at competitive and mainly play it to just have fun,however i think that Flutter Mane needs to be quick banned,it's no wonder it's broken and is hard to take down,even with no boosts
honestly, this is just dangerous asf. shreds through fat and stall with ease; u can even use things like darkinium to not get curbstomped by clodsire and spdef pex, and most of the time u 2hko chansey with +2 lo flamethrower, and +2 z overheat just straight up kills chansey after rocks. shame the meta is super fast rn, i can see it being tough to deal with once meta settles
+2 252 SpA Chi-Yu Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 669-787 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Chi-Yu Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 553-652 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 331-391 (47 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
otherwise, i have nothing much to say. except to keep pult and mage in the tier :pray_hands:
Palafin In National Dex OU
Written by Hematemesis (Bolivia on discord)
The gen 9 calc is not out yet. In order to effectively calculate for Palafin, I had to engage in some critical thinking. Palafin has 160 base power, and is a water type. I modified a Milotic on pokemon showdown to be 160 attack to emulate Palafin hero. I gave it flip turn, which can simultaneously function as a jet punch calculator in addition to a flip turn calculator because they are both 160 BP. As for wave crash - Palafin’s premier STAB option - I used a critical hit waterfall calculator to emulate 120 BP water move. Since a lot of terastallize Palafin use comes in the form of tera water, I decided to use a secondary calc with Crawdaunt and the same moves and base stat adjustments, as Crawdaunt has the adaptability ability which emulates the tera boost. These calcs will be in the text color blue for posterity. I adjusted for either choice band or leftovers, as well as +1 attack, +2 attack, etc when applicable. I then went through the painstaking process of changing each calc‘s text to be as if it were a gen 9 calc, so you’re welcome >:(. I hope this is appreciated!
Also, I adjusted the calc for each new pokemon that I ran a calc for to have identical defenses to what they would have in the game, and just used a pokemon with the same typing (i.e. Mimikyu with edited 65/65 defenses for Flutter Mane).
There are plenty of pokemon running amok in national dex OU. 11 formerly banned pokemon are back, alongside a host of new strong gen 9 pokemon. Let’s not forget that plenty of pokemon strong in last gen’s national dex are still in the tier here, and even more than that, other pokemon got buffed. Simply put, there is such an influx of new pokemon that the tier is really complicated, and therefore scary for new players. Therefore, I think being able to summarize a pokemon’s strength in the tier will be helpful for newer players. I also really enjoy writing and I like this pokemon a lot, so I have decided to write a(n) [not at all brief] explanation on Palafin!
To be perfectly candid, probably not terribly qualified to make this. However, I will cite two things that hopefully lend me credibility:
1) We won a tour in 2021
I got utterly carried by AV Cosmoem and Unicorns <- banned user apparently, but I guess it might be noteworthy as I can therefore say I have ndex experience.
2) I am top 100 on the ladder currently, on relatively strong GXE
Palafin is using two sets in national dex.
Palafin-Hero @ Choice Band
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Flip Turn
- Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Jet Punch
Palafin-Hero @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water (Sometimes Fighting)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Bulk Up
- Taunt / Flip Turn / Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Wave Crash / Jet Punch
Of course, variations and developments are possible. However, these are what have been most commonly used throughout the first few days of the tier being live! This pokemon, for the small price of entering and exiting battle once, turns into an incredibly powerful water type physical attacker.
Wave Crash is not a normal water type move. In fact, it is easily the strongest physical water type move, only being beat out in base power by hydro vortex (and you can use wave crash more than once). The recoil is a small price to pay generally, as this thing absolutely packs a punch. Don’t believe me?
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 247-292 (61.2 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Type Tera Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 330-390 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wave crash blasts a fully invested 100/100 defense line. It 2HKOs without tera, and has a chance to OHKO after hazards. Simply put, if this pokemon gets in safely, something is taking a strong hit. However, it turns out that Palafin merely hitting hard is not enough to make it stand out. This pokemon gets access to two incredibly strong moves: Jet Punch and Flip Turn. Flip Turn is obviously strong. Any pokemon benefits from pivot, but 100 as a speed tier is no joke. This is also extraordinarily helpful to get Palafin safely transformed into hero mode at the beginning of the game. If Palafin gets to safely click an attack, but a defensive check or counter exists (, , etc), then clicking Flip Turn can deal a nice chunk to the opponent and also put them on the back foot momentum wise.
Revenge Killer of the Year:
With that being said, Palafin’s strongest option is likely jet punch. This allows it to be an incredible check to the other prevalent offensive threats in the tier (and it is why I think choice band is the stronger set when compared to bulk up, but I think this is a controversial take that maybe not many others agree on). I ran a bunch of calcs for your sake (and some pokemon that it easily KOs, but it can be useful to know it kills anyway)!
[Useful if Genesect is choice scarf/sets up shift gear]
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 180-213 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 240-284 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO Notably, Genesect outspeeds with extreme speed
[Useful in all scenarios]
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane : 244-288 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 326-384 (120.2 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
[Useful in all scenarios]
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 207-244 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 276-326 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO Notably, Palafin-Hero must be >2/3rds health to avoid being KOd by +2 sucker punch
[Useful when choice scarf]
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ghouldengo: 186-220 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ghouldengo: 248-294 (78.7 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
[Useful to prevent shed tail]
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cyclizar: 122-144 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cyclizar: 163-192 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO Notably, this is not ideal in the slightest, more on that later
and [Useful if speed boost gets out of hand]
[Useful in all scenarios]
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 181-214 (66.7 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 242-286 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO Notably, Fake Out does ~1/3rd to Palafin-Hero
and [Always useful for Iron Treads, use wave crash if Great Tusk has not used rapid spin/speed booster energy]
[Useful in all scenarios]
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Maushold: 229-270 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Maushold: 344-406 (118.2 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
[Useful for non-lead sets]
252 Atk Choice Band Milotic Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 187-222 (77.5 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-Speed: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
[Useful in all scenarios]
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 297-351 (98.6 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Choice Band Water Tera Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 396-468 (131.5 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
[Click to avoid speed ties]
There are almost certainly meta threats that I did not include. I’ll be honest, I got tired of doing calcs. Just expect that jet punch will be useful to defeat weakened , , Shift Gear , , and more that I’m even missing now! Also note that stuff like veil, reflect, sun, etc all change these calcs significantly, but that is far too much work to compute.
A pokemon having a priority move that has OHKO potential for this much of the cast is absolutely bonkers! This is almost completely unprecedented, with Grassy Glide being the notable exception, but grass is far more readily resisted than water, and this was also hampered by grassy terrain (although, this makes grass tera Rillaboom a very interesting prospect…someone might want to try this out)! Anyway, Palafin provides both an offensive cleaner/breaker AND a check to many of the other biggest offensive threats of the tier. In an early meta setting where balance and stall are a lot less accessible, a pokemon such as Palafin becomes all the more valuable! Perhaps this means that banning Palafin would enable certain other pokemon to be even more potent. In the interim, using Palafin protects against some other threats from thrashing your team, which is quite helpful!
Jet Punch has a chance to 2HKO raw with water tera, but Dragapult can nullify this by being under sub. Palafin also usually gets defeated by either specs Tbolt or +1 Dragon Darts/Never-Ending nightmare in return.
Jet Punch does 2HKO raw with water tera, but lorb Draco also kills raw, and +2 sludge wave also does. Specs Draco/Tbolt also kill.
[with Dragon Dance/Scarf]
Fusion Bolt OHKOs, and Jet Punch does not. Palafin can outspeed and CB Close Combat will kill, but Palafin is incapable of killing this otherwise. Electric Tera, which is common on Kyu-B, makes CC no longer OHKO, but it does make Jet Punch more potent (it 2HKOs in those circumstances).
Lots of other dragon dance users that resist jet punch can go here. , , , and / are the big ones I believe.
Kartana is not 2HKOd by Jet Punch, and it obliterates Palafin with any set’s leaf blade. Wave Crash and Close Combat can do a lot though, so Kartana may need to be careful around this thing.
Zapdos by no means wants to take banded water moves, but it does have access to a 30% chance to effectively weaken Palafin with static. Therefore, it is notable.
Tapu Lele does not really like to switch into this pokemon, but psychic terrain is notable because it prevents priority, which includes Jet Punch. I have not seen a single Lele on the ladder in all of my games, because I think everyone is using the new and unbanned stuffed more often, but when Lele inevitably becomes relevant again, it will indirectly nerf Palafin.
*** EXPLOIT ITS GLARING WEAKNESS ***
PALAFIN HAS TO START IN REGULAR FORM!!! Usually, Palafin players will lead with Palafin and switch out. Take this opportunity to lead with a set up pokemon, such as hazard setters with pivot, screen setters, or straight up setup sweepers if you have enough gall. If they do not lead with Palafin, exploit the fact that it has to switch in and then back out to get into hero mode! This is a huge weakness!!
Most Cyclizar run max speed, and Cyclizar just needs 84 points in defense (16 in + defense nature) to avoid a 2HKO from jet punch. That notably allows it to shed tail, which is catastrophic in its own right and honestly deserves its own analysis. However, leading with Cyclizar against opposing Palafin teams can pose a challenge, as shed tail is actually free, as CB Palafin struggles to do 25% to certain pokemon (namely resists like the aforementioned dragons) when in zero mode. Cyclizar is an insane pokemon, and Cyclizar users should take advantage of it when facing off against Palafin teams.
Toxapex resists fighting and water, and can recover off band damage. It might struggle with taunt bulk up sets, but it has access to scald, and can therefore cripple these sets as well.
/ (moreso Bro)
Slowbro has the exact same thing as Toxapex. It resists water and fighting, and can fish for burns on bulk up taunt sets. Future sight can also potentially present a problem. These things also got chilly reception, and are therefore stronger as a result. This and Pex are probably the strongest counters.
Ferrothorn is probably the best thing to switch in on a water move, because it makes Palafin take a lot of recoil with Wave Crash recoil, iron barbs, and potentially helmet. That is very helpful, but it absolutely despises taking CC or drain punch, and does not really defeat bulk up without power whip due to being crippled by taunt.
Tapu Fini walls this pokemon to oblivion, but it does not do much else. The Palafin is free to taunt and then switch out, but at the very least, Tapu Fini players will never have to worry about being 6-0d by a Palafin.
Tankchomp‘s Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin combo does a number on Palafin, and it also can run max speed to outpace non Jet Punch moves. Toxic gives this pokemon major limited minutes, which is helpful. However, it only counters it for so long due to not having recovery. Tankchomp will always limit Palafin’s possibilities, though, which is great news.
This pokemon got vastly buffed because they gave it spikes for some reason, and storm drain invalidates this pokemon essentially. It also gets clear smog to really mess with bulk up, and it can even fish for scald burns. Gastrodon is super underexplored in Gen 9 because of the buffs, so expect this to really mess with Palafin when it inevitably rises to prominence.
Probably more that I’m missing, like and for example. There are also pokemon such as that were not viable in gen 8 ndex, but they might be better in gen 9 because they really limit Palafin.
Potential Partners: I’m really tired at this point and have been working on this post for almost 3 hours so I’m just going to list potential partners, and you can use your intuition to see how they would work well with Palafin because I have already put in a ton of effort on this post!
, , , , , Double Dance , , , *, and more!
Palafin probably has numbered days in this tier due to its unbelievable capabilities across the board. However, it is likely not the most broken thing in the tier at current. Additionally, this pokemon relies heavily on terastallizing to the water type because it allows it to check so much more. With tera, this pokemon probably should not stay in NDex OU, but without it, Palafin might be balanced enough to remain in the tier. However, it will absolutely be an incredible threat for the time it is still here. I am partial to Choice Band sets, but the pokemon that switch into band really struggle with bulk up sets. It is hard to tell which set it runs on team preview, and it has a surprisingly good amount of bulk that makes it that “one pokemon that lives stuff that it has no business living.” Palafin is quickly becoming one of my favorite pokemon in the tier because it is really good lmao.
I hope you enjoyed my far too long post! Being on break from uni really helps me be able to do these long winded analyses, so maybe it will be a while before I do another one, but if you like them then maybe I will XP. Thanks for reading, react with the Bellsprout if you got this far to show you‘re a real one !
Here's my opinions on the banlist slate. Speaking as a player, not necessarily as a leader here. Personally I think the pace of bans atm is a bit worrying, but my worry on this is more of a formality rather than anything directly beneficial to metagame development.
Obvious ban is obvious. Mon has speed advantage vs everything due to its great special bulk, mon has power advantage over almost everything because steels aren't bulky enough to handle it reliably. Only real answer to this mon was AV Mage and using physical priority. Not a great mon to have around honestly.
Honestly I didn't quite buy this ban in the first wave, but I see why it happened. The amount of set variance this mon has is kinda ridiculous - you can't really expect to see a single move from this thing guaranteed other than Dragon Dance, and maybe the Dark STAB. It really doesn't help that the most average set ever (STABs + Iron Head + DD, Steel Tera) is already extremely tough to answer, and that's complicated further through things like Earthquake and Acrobatics. But even then, I feel like the physical walls all have a decent chance of answering this guy (Iron Hands / Dondozo mostly, though some mons like Skeledirge and Mega Scizor can also try their hand at it, even if not very reliably).
Not really sure why OU hasn't clapped this guy yet honestly. Banded Palafin under rain is simply impossible to properly answer, in both offensive and defensive ways unless you're using crap like Jellicent, which really isn't a good sign. Bulk Up + Taunt also bops most of the Water Absorbers as well, but the answers to that set feel mostly the same as CB honestly.
Hasn't really shown any signs of being broken honestly. The base power of its STABs really helps tone it down honestly, it's not really that much better than Weavile was in SS, and it notably lacks Knock / Pursuit. Has some pretty frustrating coverage issues too, notably it can't hit Kingambit, Toxapex, Dondozo and Iron Hands all in one slot. It also really wants Sacred Sword for the steel-types in this meta. I'll do some more experimenting with things like Choice Band and Z and see how those go.
Didn't get much time to experience this little fella but from what I've heard by others (and the OU ban) the mon kinda just runs through every team with Last Respects as a finisher. Tera or not, it straight up cleaves through everything that isn't a Normal-type. Though I will admit this is a small overreaction, as there are some mons who outright outspeed this mon through Sand Rush, revenge kill via priority (Chien-Pao / Kingambit) or eat Last Respects once (Ting-Lu / defense booster Iron Hands / Zamazenta-C)
Haven't seen this more than once, and for good reason. This thing gets shat on by priority, and by the new mons released in SV. It really struggles to get past some of the bulkier mons in this meta (even Ting-Lu can eat a Close Combat reliably), and that's to say nothing of priority users like Palafin and Urshifu-R.
Abstained mostly because I hadn't really tried this mon out properly, and the few I faced either won on a day 1 metagame because I choked, or lost because they didn't have The Right Moves(TM). Though I'm not really complaining about the ban myself, it was anticipated and probably would have got hit later.
I'd like to retest this guy if Tera gets hit, but that's about it. Electric Tera KyuB was simply way too strong for this meta, hit way too hard.
If there's one mon I didn't wanna see banned it was this guy. From my experience it simply wasn't broken at all. Ting-Lu is capable of keeping it under check, as is Assault Vest Magearna, and there are several scarfers in this metagame that are actually capable of outspeeding Naganadel at +1, such as Scarf Iron Bauble, or are capable of using priority to revenge kill it. There's also the new Unawares that dropped which are capable of revenge killing it (Skeledirge, Dondozo), and then combine that with the general offensive pressure of this metagame, random Terastal which can just prevent Naganadel from getting a KO, and you have this meta where Naganadel isn't actually capable of pressuring mons at all, and merely just takes advantage of slower comps, which actually have splashable counterplay in this metagame imo.
Didn't think this guy was broken as a lead either. Great into Great Tusk but honestly kinda shit into the day 1 meta. There's the several scarfers I'd already mentioned for Naganadel and then there's the priority that can force Deo-S to get up 1 hazard at most. If there's any set that was broken with this, it would probably be Screens, but I honestly felt like there were more annoying leads like Glimmora in this meta.
Fairy Tera Kingambit is kinda threatening but it's been too slow to really make much in the way of progress in this metagame. Not the time for it yet, honestly. But it's definitely something I'm on the lookout for, even if tera goes - Supreme Overlord seems like the easiest thing to exploit in later metagames.
Can't really decide if this is the broken aspect of some teams yet. Most Cyc builds I've seen don't really have the ability to deal with the stronger tanks in the meta (Iron Hands / Great Tusk / Magearna / etc) and some mons like Ting-Lu are just capable of blanking the sub anyway with Ruination. Additionally, see speed control resources. Those things help keep Cyclizar in check and don't actually make it that easy for the user to pull off Shed Tail. Will likely change hands on this very quickly though.
and finally, Tera. I've mentioned this several times in the banpost. I know there's a lot of worry with how Tera makes defensive counterplay extremely dodgy, and that same sentiment is shared with the council. However, I must request that the playerbase wait a while before we ban Terastalizing. Honestly, several of these mons are already broken even without Terastal in the metagame (the only one I can really see us waiting for is Genesect right now), and Terastal is also one of the best things giving us immediate defensive counterplay - not just using its power stacking ability, but using the ability to dynamically change into a defensive typing (such as Water) to help out with key team weaknesses into playstyles like Rain.
Absolute poggers bans here, first time posting on a gen 9 meta thread too so i'll throw out my thoughts on the most notable ones (i might just skip a bit since some of them didn't even exist long enough in the tier or i just haven't played or seen them enough).
THANK YOU. Everyone wanted this gone, i could dare myself to say it's a Calyrex-S in disguise, everything can be found on this mon. High SpA, SpD and Spe with an ability and item combination that gives it a +1 Spe for free, unresisted stabs and Terastalization to back it up). Most methods of beating it resulted in either bulky steels like AV Mag (and sometimes AV Melm) or priority (Palafin, M-Scizor, etc) but most of these options could also just vanish with Tera options.
This mon is stupid and while it did kept most of the other broken mons in check, it also destroyed everything at the same time. Entering the Hero Form (which isn't even that hard since base is solid enough to accomplish that) pmuch unlocks the Win button, having 160 Atk with a 60 BP Stab priority Water move that could also get even stronger via Choice Band/Bulk Up + Terastalization was just reviving an ancient weapon (). Being in such a HO infested meta where you can't always afford for Bulky Waters to check it was even more obnoxious than Flutter Mane imo.
I'll be honest, the thing that made this borderline broken was probably DD + Tera Steel since that was pmuch unkillable bar Palafin but it might just be me. The recent Protosynthesis and Quark Drive nerfs affected this mon but considering that announcement was made hours before the ban, there wasn't enough time to check it (tho idt it matters much at the end of the day). I still think this mon is overwhelming but my only problem came from Terastalization.
Dragon Dance Kyurem-B made a repeat of the last generation which was clicking the move once or twice and winning the game on the spot. Screens probably abused this mon more than anything else (besides maybe Flutter Mane) and potentially being the main sweeper from the team, this mon alongside Flutter Mane also became the reason why M-Scizor rose a lot these days but even then Tera Electric turns M-Scizor and Magearna into a free kill. If you didn't had a healthy Melmetal or Zama-C you would get shattered.
I completely agree with Lydia in that this mon should have been explored more, the tier has gained a lot of new tools to keep it in check offensively and defensively. Offense was able to deny it an opportunity to setup and even revenge it with Chien-Pao, M-Scizor, Kingambit, +1 Iron Bundle and Valiant, M-Lopunny and more. With Defense you had AV Mag, Ting-Lu, Gastrodon or Clodsire to name a few. While im aware that some of the options are also mons bound to be suspect tested and probably leaving the tier, the meta could just adapt to this and explore more options, even if it doesn't work and Naganadel falls under red flag then at least it got the time to prove itself.
For the other two i don't have anything to say tbh, i just encountered them ocasionally on the ladder and all they did was try to look menacing just to die instantly.
The slate was mostly positive, losing Naganadel this early on a meta that was capable of handling it was kinda sad but outside of that exception, the rest of the bans and no bans reflected the current state of the meta very well. I think the most problematic aspect out of everything else is Terastalization due to how much a pokemon can easily get out of control with it, as if dealing with the wave of threats wasn't difficult enough, you couldn't be sure if what you had was actually enough or not but the argument of its use on defense is also a part that allows us to handle these threats better (and honestly a cool way to use it imo) and the fact that its a new gen mechanic (that doesn't 100% break the game like Dynamax) gives it enough reason to at least stay for a longer time.
Overall the meta is actually pretty fun! Much more than what i anticipated from something that looked like "stall and defense ded offense new shit" and the new mons are also a neat addition to the meta (at least mostly). Now im gonna keep playing while i wait for ND UU and ND RU which is probably gonna make me cry
Specs Dragapult was widely outclassed by Flutter Mane when it was around, but since it has been banned, it can now rise up as a viable set to use. Firing of a strong Draco Meteor and a strong, near unresisted Shadow Ball can be very hard to switch into, and special walls that would give Dragapult a run for its money such as Tyranitar and Chaney simply get U-Turned on the switch. The fourth moveslot can be used for anything that you would like to hit, you can run Fire Blast to hit Magearna, Melmetal, and Ferrothorn harder, or Hydro Pump to hit Clodsire, Garganacl, and Tyranitar. Overall, if you miss firing off fast and strong Shadow Balls with Flutter Mane, Dragapult can get the job done just as well.
Gholdengo was also sort of outclassed by Flutter Mane when it was around, but even since its departure, Gholdengo is on the rise, and at a very staggering rate. Due to its ability, it is capable of blocking near every status move bar Haze and Mist, one of those moves is being Defog. Because of that, Gholdengo is a staple and a must on hazard stacking teams, being able to block both Defog and Rapid Spin. You can use sets ranging from Air Balloon, Choice Scarf, Nasty Plot + Trick, or even Specs, which all can get the job done for blocking hazard control. If you like to spam Ghost STAB without the fear of being statused in any way, Gholdengo is your man.
While being a very niche option, Blacephalon can spam a nasty STAB combo in Fire and Ghost, and has amazing revenge killing capabilities with Scarf, being able to get the KO on Zamazenta-Crowned, Iron Treads, unboosted Dragapult, Iron Bundle, and more, and if paired with Spikes, can be extremely dangerous. Blacephalon is a nice Pokemon to use, but it quite rather niche and can be easily stopped in its tracks it you have a Pokemon that can eat one of its boosted STABs.
Roaring Moon and Kyurem-Black
Baxcalibur is a very neat Dragon and Sword Dancer, boasting the same STAB combination of Kyurem-Black while having a usable STAB Dragon move in Glaive Rush, and has Earthquake to hit Steel-types and can revenge kill with Ice Shard. Its ability, Thermal Exchange, can support its sweep, as it is immune to burns, and boosts Baxcalibur's Attack after being hit by a Fire-type move. I'd say if you would like to use a nice Kyurem-Black replacement, I'd say this is probably a neat option.
Dragapult is an excellent Dragon Dancer, using its infamous Ghostium Z Substitute Dragon Dance set, which still holds up to this day. Dragon Darts is also good Dragon STAB that Dragapult can use, and anything that would usually eat or is straight up immune to it gets nuked with a Never-Ending Nightmare or a Phantom Force with or without Substitute. This is also a nice Kyurem-Black and Roaring Moon replacement, who can Dragon Dance with a higher Speed stat and can use a dangerous Ghost STAB, and cannot be Intimidated or phazed out.
While Mega Charizard X is a somewhat niche Pokemon, it can easily dismantle weak offense and bulky builds; with or without a boost. Dragon Dance can fuel up Mega Charizard X, allowing it to fire off extremely strong Flare Blitzes, Thunder Punches, and Dragon Claws, while being able to neuter the Flare Blitz recoil by Roost. You have to be extremely wary of Stealth Rock if you choose to use this Pokemon, as it easily can be worn down if you aren't being careful. This can be a replacement to Kyurem-Black, and a very strong one at that. Pokemon such as Garganacl, Defensive Skeledirge, Dondozo, and sometimes Clodsire can prove to be a bane to all of the Pokemon mentioned above, providing a check to them that keeps them balanced, unlike Kyurem-Black, who was too strong due to Tera Electric sets and being able to use a myriad of pressuring sets, rather it be Substitute + Icium Z, or Loaded Dice with Icicle Spear and Scale Shot. This also applies to Roaring Moon, while it didn't have the raw power of Kyurem-Black, sets like Booster Energy with Tera Flying Acrobatics and SubJaw Lock pushed it over the edge.
Urshifu gained two new amazing tools this generation in Swords Dance and Punching Glove, allowing it to use some nasty sets, such as SD + 3 Attacks, Taunt + 3 Attacks, or even a Whirlpool + Taunt set due to Punching Glove. There is nothing else to it, but it is a good thing that Urshifu now got a new tool which negates its severe contact weakness. If you miss Palafin and throwing off obscenely powerful Water STAB attacks, Urshifu has you covered, mostly.
Mega Gyarados is a nice Hyper Offense pick due to how it easily can revenge sweep with its obscenely powerful Wateralls and Crunches, while coverage such as Earthquake and Stone Edge to back it up. Nothing else much to it, its kind of just like it was in the last generation.
Both of these Pokemon can function on Rain styles and throw strong Water STAB on opponents and can pivot, with Mega Swampert being a must on Rain due to it being a Ground-type and providing utility such as Stealth Rock and Flip Turn, while Barraskewda can dismantle offense and can Tera into Water, annihilating anything in its path bar Water Absorbers, Storm Drainers, and Water- and Grass-types who hopefully can eat its attacks under rain well.
The Extreme Killer of OU, Tera Normal Dragonite is an absolute menace with and without support from Pokemon such as Grimmsnarl and Cyclizar, and can run coverage such as Earthquake and Fire Punch to make sure no Steel-type stands in its way. Overall, if you liked using Extreme Killer Genesect, Extreme Killer Dragonite can do the job and have longevity and a harder hitting STAB due to its Attack stat.
Due to the sheer versatility of Genesect, I truly cannot come up with any other Pokemon that can do what it used to do in the tier. That's just crazy, isn't it?
Annihilape shared a trait with Houndstone, that being a severely broken Ghost-type move, this time being Rage Fist. It is on the rise due to its Bulk Up + Rest or Taunt set which can potentially reverse 6-0 teams if not checked, and combined with an unresisted STAB combo with nice 115/80/90 bulk, makes it quite the Pokemon to use in National Dex OU. If you liked Last Respects spam, you most definitely will enjoy using Rage Fist with Annihilape.
Honestly, I would like to write about Deoxys-S and Naganadel, but I simply cannot come up with anything right now. I will most likely update this post, but I appreciate you reading!