Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Epicgamergod69]

You know, it may be an unpopular opinion but I want flinch, crit, para, and mostly hurricane ban. It's CRAZY how many games are decided on pure luck on this non luck-based game! Hurricane has 30% of miss, but Also 30% of confusion. We Don't have an efficient yet kinda fair mod that's served us for 10+ years.

Realest shit
Like to be honest para is pure luck add focus blast too and every move that isn't 100% accurate. He definitely is cooking as "it's luck based" isn't exactly a reason as we could use that for so many other things but I dunno like spore and shit aren't really broken it's just the cringe moves so just ban those if they are so egregious
Edit: this is a bit

 

[Amuetur]

You know, it may be an unpopular opinion but I want flinch, crit, para, and mostly hurricane ban. It's CRAZY how many games are decided on pure luck on this non luck-based game! Hurricane has 30% of miss, but Also 30% of confusion. We Don't have an efficient yet kinda fair mod that's served us for 10+ years.

You're playing pokemon, it's child gambling. Even toxic is luck-based do we ban that too?

 

[Skyuchi]

Someone is mad their luck isn’t good lol. If you don’t like the luck aspect of Pokémon please play a different competitive game.

This is an absolutely, uniquely terrible argument.
Bans and the sleep clause exist in Pokemon for an extremely good reason. We are playing this baby game intended for toddlers in an attempt to play it competitively because we enjoy it that way.
Time and time again we have gotten to unique situations in which the amount of variance present within the game gets in the way of playing it in a competitive manner. Double team, OHKO moves, Swagger, and unreasonable team matchup fishing (e.g. Baton Pass) are things that we have banned in the past for self-evident reasons, and you would be exceedingly hard pressed to find someone who has any competitive merit whatsoever willing to go to bat for reinstating all of those in the game.
We have never sought as a community to remove every instance of variance from the game in an attempt to preserve some semblence of the baby game we enjoy and to encourage offensive play rather than boil everything down to PP wars, and the specific threshold we have have for each generation and each situation varies greatly, but as the power level of non-Uber Pokemon increases with every single generation, the effect of variance within any given turn is more and more explosive. In, say, Generation II, exceedingly inaccurate moves can be used often because the risk of missing one is significantly lower. Thunder and Sing are entirely palatable because there is little chance that missing or hitting one will change the entire flow of the game. Those slower games where RNG is more agreeable naturally reward a more skilled player, and faster ones inherently hurt a more skilled player, because as the law of large numbers goes, the more turns a game goes on and the more decisions need to be made, the more the better player will be the one benefiting from them and the less a simply lucky player will benefit from them.
We have entered a generation where the threats are so uniquely absurd that simply hitting a Hypnosis can determine the entire game, unless your team is warped so as to accommodate it. When faced with something like that, it is entirely reasonable to say a move that creates such variance to the extent that the winner is not the more skilled player, but the more lucky one should be banned entirely.
If your priority is not allowing the more skilled player to win consistently, you should not be creating competitive rules, and furthermore if we do not create an environment where the more skilled player does win consistently, there's no reason to play this competitively.

I feel like a huge disconnect exists as a proportion of the community cares about competitive play and a huge proportion just wants to have fun. If all you want is fun in a semi-competitive environment with your wacky dragon creatures, that's fine, and that's mostly the camp I fall into myself, but you can't complain when people want to boil things down to competitive merit.

I firmly believe Hypnosis needs to be banned outright, we need a complex ban where certain Pokemon are incapable of using it, the abusers of it need to be banned outright, or we need to ban sleep altogether. The last option I feel throws the baby out with the bath water and would be regrettable, because things like Amoonguss are strong pivots capable of shutting down single threats which enable unique counterplay and different teamstyles, and Breloom is a uniquely momentum-generating offensive juggernaut which falls off really hard after it's exhausted its status.
Sleep Powder can have an argument made too, but overall I don't think it's really as big of an issue. Chlorophyll Venusaur hasn't really torn everything to shreds to a gross extent, and 75% is a whole 25% more likely to hit than Hypnosis's 60% (in terms of relative odds, not percentage). That means the threshold of variance is far lower.

The other solution to stop these moves from determining the game outright is to simply scale back the power level substantially. We could easily accomplish that by banning a huge amount of offensive threats from the game entirely, banning Terastalization, banning Z-Moves, and leaving ourselves with a very slow metagame, but I feel like the overall majority of people would rather the game not take that form. You'd preserve Hypnosis as being balanced though, if that's your utmost priority.
I would personally say this extends to more moves than just Hypnosis personally (fuck Scald and all that it's ever done because its existence alone is a sheer blight on Pokemon, we've all swapped into a risky Hurricane once, been crit+confused, and then hurt ourselves and a "counter" ended up just being death fodder), but that would be an entirely separate argument, and really this whole meta discussion revolves around sleep.
Otherwise, if we simply just accept that games will come down more and more to luck/matchup fishing as Gamefreak's ability to balance things further and further deteriorates, why not just free Miraidon into OU and call it a day? Miraidon will give us an extremely reliable way to prevent sleep entirely!

You're playing pokemon, it's child gambling. Even toxic is luck-based do we ban that too?

Would you free Double Team? Or would you accept a match is seldom won or loss based on a single toxic, yet that a match is much more often won or lost based on a single Hypnosis, and it's not the existence of luck that matters but the extent to which luck affects the outcome of the game?

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

This is an absolutely, uniquely terrible argument.
Bans and the sleep clause exist in Pokemon for an extremely good reason. We are playing this baby game intended for toddlers in an attempt to play it competitively because we enjoy it that way.
Time and time again we have gotten to unique situations in which the amount of variance present within the game gets in the way of playing it in a competitive manner. Double team, OHKO moves, Swagger, and unreasonable team matchup fishing (e.g. Baton Pass) are things that we have banned in the past for self-evident reasons, and you would be exceedingly hard pressed to find someone who has any competitive merit whatsoever willing to go to bat for reinstating all of those in the game.
We have never sought as a community to remove every instance of variance from the game in an attempt to preserve some semblence of the baby game we enjoy and to encourage offensive play rather than boil everything down to PP wars, and the specific threshold we have have for each generation and each situation varies greatly, but as the power level of non-Uber Pokemon increases with every single generation, the effect of variance within any given turn is more and more explosive. In, say, Generation II, exceedingly inaccurate moves can be used often because the risk of missing one is significantly lower. Thunder and Sing are entirely palatable because there is little chance that missing or hitting one will change the entire flow of the game. Those slower games where RNG is more agreeable naturally reward a more skilled player, and faster ones inherently hurt a more skilled player, because as the law of large numbers goes, the more turns a game goes on and the more decisions need to be made, the more the better player will be the one benefiting from them and the less a simply lucky player will benefit from them.
We have entered a generation where the threats are so uniquely absurd that simply hitting a Hypnosis can determine the entire game, unless your team is warped so as to accommodate it. When faced with something like that, it is entirely reasonable to say a move that creates such variance to the extent that the winner is not the more skilled player, but the more lucky one should be banned entirely.
If your priority is not allowing the more skilled player to win consistently, you should not be creating competitive rules, and furthermore if we do not create an environment where the more skilled player does win consistently, there's no reason to play this competitively.

I feel like a huge disconnect exists as a proportion of the community cares about competitive play and a huge proportion just wants to have fun. If all you want is fun in a semi-competitive environment with your wacky dragon creatures, that's fine, and that's mostly the camp I fall into myself, but you can't complain when people want to boil things down to competitive merit.

I firmly believe Hypnosis needs to be banned outright, we need a complex ban where certain Pokemon are incapable of using it, the abusers of it need to be banned outright, or we need to ban sleep altogether. The last option I feel throws the baby out with the bath water and would be regrettable, because things like Amoonguss are strong pivots capable of shutting down single threats which enable unique counterplay and different teamstyles, and Breloom is a uniquely momentum-generating offensive juggernaut which falls off really hard after it's exhausted it's status.
Sleep Powder can have an argument made too, but overall I don't think it's really as big of an issue. Chlorophyll Venusaur hasn't really torn everything to shreds to a gross extent, and 75% is a whole 25% more likely to hit than Hypnosis's 60% (in terms of relative odds, not percentage). That means the threshold of variance is far lower.

The other solution to stop these moves from determining the game outright is to simply scale back the power level substantially. We could easily accomplish that by banning a huge amount of offensive threats from the game entirely, banning Terastalization, banning Z-Moves, and leaving ourselves with a very slow metagame, but I feel like the overall majority of people would rather the game take that form. You'd preserve Hypnosis as being balanced though, if that's your utmost priority.
I would personally say this extends to more moves than just Hypnosis personally (fuck Scald and all that it's ever done because its existence alone is a sheer blight on Pokemon, we've all swapped into a risky Hurricane once, been crit+confused, and then hurt ourselves and a "counter" ended up just being death fodder), but that would be an entirely separate argument, and really this whole meta discussion revolves around sleep.
Otherwise, if we simply just accept that games will come down more and more to luck/matchup fishing as Gamefreak's ability to balance things further and further deteriorates, why not just free Miraidon into OU and call it a day? Miraidon will give us an extremely reliable way to prevent sleep entirely!


Would you free Double Team? Or would you accept a match is seldom won or loss based on a single toxic, yet that a match is much more often won or lost based on a single Hypnosis, and it's not the existence of luck that matters but the extent to which luck affects the outcome of the game?

uhhhhh I think Not that much games are played on hypnosis. At least WAYYYYYS less than hurricane. do you use hyupnosis on ival? no! use encore! or, if it's a dangerous move well do sth else. in thecase of darkrai, it already needs his slots to be threatening, if at all. if ur team is weak to sleep, or para, or toxic, well, it's

haven't guessed it?

Teambuilder isssue

 

[Patar136]

Seeing Finch's post on sleep I do find myself understanding a lot of it, but the part I disagree with is where he suggests that Hypnosis is not a significant factor. That it would not be a significant change for two reasons.

1.) One is that this would reflect bad tiering policy.

2.) That it would just lead to Darkrai running Dark Void instead.

For point one, I don't really see why a blanket ban on sleep is somehow inherently a good decision. For one, just because it's the fastest and most convenient decision doesn't necessarily make it a good one. It's assuming that national dex is just unable to generate any sort of momentum when it comes to voting and that we are simply incapable of being patient as we test what is broken and what is not. Instead of just assuming that we don't have the means to test things gradually we can take smaller steps before taking giant leaps.

Now point two is where I really take some ire. Because the best argument I can see in good faith is "Well, 10% less isn't that much worse." And I'm gonna be a bit blunt. If you are deciding to toss your game up to a coin flip I am going to pretty confidently say you have admitted failure!

You are admitting that you are incapable of creating any strategy on your own if you have to rely on a coin flip that isn't even that great of a plan anyway considering the prevalence of electric terrain in this tier. You are basically saying "I suck and I am a dishonorable piece of garbage." And are we really going to decide that these trolls who have given up on their own skills are going to decide policy? That one dumbass who decides to use 50% Dark Void Darkrai gets to cause a blanket ban on sleep gets to outweigh the experience of better players who use actually good strategies? By this same logic, we might as well say that any Pokemon capable of using Zap Cannon or Dynamic Punch should be banned as well on the grounds that should these moves succeed the usual counters to such Pokemon disappear or fail to be actual counters. Like yeah, sometimes in a rare event of Zap Cannon on Zapdos you might find out that your team now loses. But it's fucking Zap Cannon, on Zapdos. Same goes for Urshifu using Dynamic Punch and winning. Like yeah, that can in fact probably cheese some games, but too often that type of shit isn't gonna work with any sort of consistency.

As RNG based as Hypnosis is, and it is very RNG based, saying that we should ban sleep because people are gonna start using Dark Void Darkrai is just absurd. If a player tries that they should be allowed to do that so they can be insanely punished. What kind of precedent are we setting if we say that "yes, this stupid INCONSISTENT strategy is going to be banned because it happens to be okay 50% of the time, if that." That is stupid. That is stupid on so many levels. You wanna discuss bad tiering philosophy? This is it right here. Assuming that people will try the stupid and frankly worse strategies rather than look for better and consistent strategies.

Also also, for the record, I don't really care if we ban sleep. But I hate these stupid arguments. These people are right for the wrong reasons. And I don't know why this makes me mad so much but it does. I guess I just don't like bad faith arguments.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

You are assuming that sleep should be banned cause people Will run dark void darkrai. Well it's unconsistent. Run inferno charizard Y. you'll change it for fire blast After 70seconds. The ibcobsistency of The thing dont deserve Ban. AND mostly for real sleep clause is alright and There is no net metagame problem rn, just randoms not wanting sleep clause cause they Don't like it

 

[Patar136]

What people are arguing is that banning Hypnosis won't fix the issue (even though Iron Valiant only gets Hypnosis and otherwise can't inflict sleep, almost as if maybe Darkrai is the real problem hm, suspicious) and that dark void will be used next on Darkrai. The logic is that when we banned Dugtrio from BW OU, Diglett started to get used instead to fill that role of trapper. Never mind that Arena Trap and sleep are not comparable but who cares I guess. If this is the logic used for this broken thing it MUST be the case for this not necessarily broken but annoying and unnecessary thing.

 

[Wriothesley<3]

Hi. I gotta be honest with y'all. Even with a small experience as a player due to personal needs and time. I think one of the main differences between us and regular OU is the fact that we have Tapu Koko (and Fini but she is busy in UU) in our roster.

But before you argue back saying "But Darkrai can beat Koko and Fini with Sludge Bomb if predicted correctly.", must I say that if you guys actually think about it. If Darkrai uses Nastly Plot while we switch in our Koko we can then either trick it into using Sludge bomb and we pivot into a steel type, chipping it or, we can pivot in back our sleeping mon and it wakes up immediately. And I might also say that I actually like darkrai users actually thinking whether koko will or not switch in since it makes darkrai players have a tiny bit of skill in predicting

Conclusion: Koko is one of the big differences between regular and Natdex OU when it comes to banning sleep. Feel free to argue with me as I'm still trying to develope knowledge within this metagame.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Id Add that Koko often comes with valiant, that outspeeds nasty plot darkrai While you can pivot to beat Scarf darkrai, blunder policy darkrai being actually strong cause of

sleep?

NO. that ass-toundishing 135spatk and 125speed.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Hi. I gotta be honest with y'all. Even with a small experience as a player due to personal needs and time. I think one of the main differences between us and regular OU is the fact that we have Tapu Koko (and Fini but she is busy in UU) in our roster.

But before you argue back saying "But Darkrai can beat Koko and Fini with Sludge Bomb if predicted correctly.", must I say that if you guys actually think about it. If Darkrai uses Nastly Plot while we switch in our Koko we can then either trick it into using Sludge bomb and we pivot into a steel type, chipping it or, we can pivot in back our sleeping mon and it wakes up immediately. And I might also say that I actually like darkrai users actually thinking whether koko will or not switch in since it makes darkrai players have a tiny bit of skill in predicting

Conclusion: Koko is one of the big differences between regular and Natdex OU when it comes to banning sleep. Feel free to argue with me as I'm still trying to develope knowledge within this metagame.

Sleep clause should be removed either way, but yeah, sleep is definitely not unmangeable in Natdex as compared to OU, so we might need a suspect test to see if sleep moves are truly an issue.

 

[ant4456]

Hi. I gotta be honest with y'all. Even with a small experience as a player due to personal needs and time. I think one of the main differences between us and regular OU is the fact that we have Tapu Koko (and Fini but she is busy in UU) in our roster.

But before you argue back saying "But Darkrai can beat Koko and Fini with Sludge Bomb if predicted correctly.", must I say that if you guys actually think about it. If Darkrai uses Nastly Plot while we switch in our Koko we can then either trick it into using Sludge bomb and we pivot into a steel type, chipping it or, we can pivot in back our sleeping mon and it wakes up immediately. And I might also say that I actually like darkrai users actually thinking whether koko will or not switch in since it makes darkrai players have a tiny bit of skill in predicting

Conclusion: Koko is one of the big differences between regular and Natdex OU when it comes to banning sleep. Feel free to argue with me as I'm still trying to develope knowledge within this metagame.

I really don't care about if Sleep is broken as is or not but Sleep Clause is lame-o and I'd always look at Sleep without sleep clause,

but to be fair, this meta is also based on a fake game. You can theoretically just say the cartridge has sleep clause as an option.

 

[hidin]

but to be fair, this meta is also based on a fake game. You can theoretically just say the cartridge has sleep clause as an option.

natdex being based off of gen 7 (the game!!) is not correlative to it being a fake game in its entirety lol, not an intelligent take

with all the discussion about sleep i plan to post my opinions on it in the soon future, but ill be addressing how the arguments being done about it have been done very wrong and arent focusing on the actual issue. and if you want my opinion on if i want to implement it or not i would like to get rid of sleep clause for sleep moves ban

 

[ant4456]

natdex being based off of gen 7 (the game!!) is not correlative to it being a fake game in its entirety lol, not an intelligent take

There is no real game where there is all of that. A "Gen 7 but continued" doesn't exist. Theoretically, Gen 7 could add a patch where Sleep Clause exists.

Cartridge accuracy is a fake idea when you apply it to a theoretical anyways. I am a Sleep Clause hater but I also understand that there is no National Dex cartridge.

And no, I do not care about the Policy Review threads about the "identity of National Dex", most of which revolved around "how can we get rid of new temporary gimmicks while keeping Megas and Z Moves" because people are boring.

 

[hidin]

There is no real game where there is all of that. A "Gen 7 but continued" doesn't exist. Theoretically, Gen 7 could add a patch where Sleep Clause exists.

Cartridge accuracy is a fake idea when you apply it to a theoretical anyways. I am a Sleep Clause hater but I also understand that there is no National Dex cartridge.

And no, I do not care about the Policy Review threads about the "identity of National Dex", most of which revolved around "how can we get rid of new temporary gimmicks while keeping Megas and Z Moves" because people are boring.

how do you make a counterargument that just proves me right

 

[adem]

There is no real game where there is all of that. A "Gen 7 but continued" doesn't exist. Theoretically, Gen 7 could add a patch where Sleep Clause exists.

Cartridge accuracy is a fake idea when you apply it to a theoretical anyways. I am a Sleep Clause hater but I also understand that there is no National Dex cartridge.

And no, I do not care about the Policy Review threads about the "identity of National Dex", most of which revolved around "how can we get rid of new temporary gimmicks while keeping Megas and Z Moves" because people are boring.

“i dont care about the policy review thread where people who play the tier discuss the identity and how policy goes regarding national dex because people are BORING, but i also think MY opinion about how we should run the tier is CORRECT”

 

[Patar136]

People who say "Well if we ban Hypnosis on Darkrai, we will just use Dark Void on Darkrai" come out of hiding! Show yourselves you cowardly lot. You are apparently shaping policy.

If you don't show yourself, you are a straw man. AKA, you don't exist.

 

[Skyuchi]

Hi. I gotta be honest with y'all. Even with a small experience as a player due to personal needs and time. I think one of the main differences between us and regular OU is the fact that we have Tapu Koko (and Fini but she is busy in UU) in our roster.

But before you argue back saying "But Darkrai can beat Koko and Fini with Sludge Bomb if predicted correctly.", must I say that if you guys actually think about it. If Darkrai uses Nastly Plot while we switch in our Koko we can then either trick it into using Sludge bomb and we pivot into a steel type, chipping it or, we can pivot in back our sleeping mon and it wakes up immediately. And I might also say that I actually like darkrai users actually thinking whether koko will or not switch in since it makes darkrai players have a tiny bit of skill in predicting

Conclusion: Koko is one of the big differences between regular and Natdex OU when it comes to banning sleep. Feel free to argue with me as I'm still trying to develope knowledge within this metagame.

You're right that things play out much differently here because we have a few key differences in what Pokemon are available, but unfortunately I don't think either is a good answer.
Koko has fallen off as a pivot in no small part due to the fact he enables Iron mons, which is weird to think about at first, until you realize he also enables the opponent. Sure in Gen 8 he was much better because he's just an amazing Pokemon in general, but now you might give your opponent's Heavy Duty Boots or Choice'd or whatever Iron Pokemon a boost, and that's the furthest thing from what you want. You could use it if you're relying on them yourself, and that works and is an entirely valid strategy, but that really only benefits Bulky/Hyper Offense teams for the most part. It's not really a reliable answer all around because you buff your opponent when running him.
Tapu Fini has a bit more nuance as to why it's not a reliable answer. Fini's place in the metagame is for the most part as a shredder of balance/stall teams where its immunity to status combined with a relatively fast Taunt and Calm Mind mean it can quickly become unstoppable. Its stats aren't really good enough to stop an offensive team because while it can take a hit, it can't threaten back much at all without a boost. This is especially important because the teams that run Hypnosis Darkrai ARE the offensive teams. Something bulkier or more balanced is much more likely to run Specs or possibly Life Orb/Boots on 4 attacks since it can't afford one of its limited offensive threats possibly doing nothing or getting easily walled. Those very offensive teams where Hypnosis is a threat will blow past Tapu Fini in other ways where it won't be very useful and you're effectively then just using it as a soft check or death fodder. You're also leaving yourself very vulnerable in case you predict incorrectly because a Sludge Bomb can still 2HKO.
Essentially, Tapu Fini might not be bad against Hypnosis Darkrai, but it's bad against the teams that run Hypnosis Darkrai.
Even then, if in your scenario you do swap in on a Nasty Plot, and then block a Sludge Bomb by swapping a Steel in, your steel is going to have to be bulky enough to take on a +2 Dark Pulse, which is a lot to ask for, or possibly even a Focus Blast because Nasty Plot + 3 Attacks exists too.
You could make a case for Scarf Tapu Fini because that can counter specific offensive threats like Darkrai, but that's both not a very good Pokemon and can super easily be taken advantage of.
Either Tapu can serve as a check, but they're far from a counter.

 

[ant4456]

“i dont care about the policy review thread where people who play the tier discuss the identity and how policy goes regarding national dex because people are BORING, but i also think MY opinion about how we should run the tier is CORRECT”

Yeah. Basing the identity of National Dex on what gimmicks you want to stay and leave is bad. It makes the "identity" entirely arbitrary, basing it on what gimmicks you want to stay or leave makes it even less of a real "identity". If you are going to try and make National Dex have some actual basis on the games, it should be based on something less arbitrary than "well I WANT megas and z moves!"

Shit like "only gimmicks that have held items, so ones that only use a key item" doesn't even make sense because you cannot use any gimmick without key items which you cannot transfer. ie. you could not use Mega Evolution without a Key Item Mega Ring.

I didn't say the Policy Review thread is boring because people are boring, instead I'm saying basing it around "only Megas and Zs" is only because of basic bitches who think Megas and Zs are cool and the gimmicks after are just bad. Hell, Z Moves in of itself are not even a good gimmick.

If you want to make an actually ideologically consistent National Dex, then do it. But that isn't what exists now. Favoritism of gimmicks and certain mechanics is not ideologically consistent.

Anywho, overall point being, what is even stopping National Dex from not having Sleep Clause? It is not based on a cartridge. It is not based on a real existing cartridge. You cannot reasonably argue that it is, it's literally a made up game. Tell me what cartridge to play this on, and it's definitely not just Gen 7 but more when we change mechanics / moves (such as PP) to be based on new gen (almost like it's pretty arbitrary to begin with).

 

[R8]

You are admitting that you are incapable of creating any strategy on your own if you have to rely on a coin flip that isn't even that great of a plan anyway considering the prevalence of electric terrain in this tier. You are basically saying "I suck and I am a dishonorable piece of garbage." And are we really going to decide that these trolls who have given up on their own skills are going to decide policy? That one dumbass who decides to use 50% Dark Void Darkrai gets to cause a blanket ban on sleep gets to outweigh the experience of better players who use actually good strategies? By this same logic, we might as well say that any Pokemon capable of using Zap Cannon or Dynamic Punch should be banned as well on the grounds that should these moves succeed the usual counters to such Pokemon disappear or fail to be actual counters. Like yeah, sometimes in a rare event of Zap Cannon on Zapdos you might find out that your team now loses. But it's fucking Zap Cannon, on Zapdos. Same goes for Urshifu using Dynamic Punch and winning. Like yeah, that can in fact probably cheese some games, but too often that type of shit isn't gonna work with any sort of consistency.

Yes, we definitively should, and there is strong precedent for that. Baton Pass has been allowed for a decade because of this exact argument: using baton pass proves you need to rely on cheese nonsense to win, and thus you prove you cannot play the game and beat your opponent by relying on your own skill and understanding of the game.

That's the thing with uncompetitive strategies in general: they are inconsistent as fuck, but the potential upside is so high that a player can be regularly rewarded for running it. This is why they are called uncompetitive in the first place: they make elements that are out of the control of either players way too important. If you load baton pass, you are either winning or losing on team preview most of the time. If you use evasion moves based strategies, the game will boil down to luck to a disproportionate amount of the time. The problem with this strategy isn't just about luck: it is because it is a strategy that purposely removes skill as a factor a disproportionate amount of the time.

Imo comparing zap cannon/dynamic punch to hypnosis is not fair, and there is a reason why sleep moves always have been more popular than these two (barring no guard users). If you take anything used to try to switch into zap cannon zapdos, odds are they will probably be fine even if zap cannon hits: you are still expecting to be hit by stab electric moves and potentially get para'd in the process (Because you might face the more standard discharge zapdos). Dynamic Punch inflicts confusion, which is not as threatening as sleep: it can last 1 to 4 turns (compared to sleep's 1 to 3 turns), however it only has a 33% chance to prevent you from moving each turn, and wears off if you switch out. Of course you could make an argument to ban confusion inducing stuff, but I don't think that's necessary.

 

[Patar136]

The problem with this strategy isn't just about luck: it is because it is a strategy that purposely removes skill as a factor a disproportionate amount of the time.

Dark Void Darkrai makes that 50% of the time! 60% with Hypnosis. Baton Pass works 100% of the time. When you click Baton Pass, 100% of the time you are switching out (assuming you aren't taunted, statused, ko'ed etc beforehand). When you click the sleep button on these first two options, there is a pretty sizable chance that the strategy won't work at all. Sure when they DO connect it can be an issue but I want you to ask yourself this? Is it anymore annoying than a random paralysis, a random flinch, a random freeze etc? Status in general is just good and your team should have some means of answering status.

The only difference is that sleep is a deliberate status. You can't guarantee a freeze or a flinch. You can safely guarantee paralysis a lot of the time but not that it will always work and actually prevent your opponent from moving. Sleep gives you some safe turns based on RNG entirely. Some games, your opponent wakes up turn one and kills you. Other games, you quiver dance Venomoth twice and sweep (epic btw.) The problem is that sleep is just a superior status condition to everything else and as such it is uncompetitive to deal with it, especially because of the RNG with certain setters getting the move off in the first place. Nobody is seriously complaining about Amoonguss, they're not. They're complaining about Darkrai, maybe Iron Valiant. That Amoonguss or Brute Bonnet has to be piloted effectively against a meta game where Two Tapus can blank status, where Garganacl is everywhere and in a meta game where Amoonguss and friends just aren't that great of Pokemon sadly (this ain't Amoonguss' glory days.) There is a degree of skill in using Spore, Yawn (especially cause its two turns) or even Sleep Powder/Lovely Kiss since that can hit reliably. You are going out your way to bank upon sleep being one of your plans. It's a deliberate choice. Hypnosis is not really skill since it's a slightly even coin flip. And Dark Void is a pure coin flip. A player that uses Dark Void, if we banned Hypnosis instead, GET GOOD! Okay, get good. We do not need to worry about these idiots. Baton Pass this ain't. If they somehow win a tournament with dark void darkrai, maybe your team just isn't that good against status in general. Hypnosis I can sympathize with to a degree, not much, but too a degree.

Imo comparing zap cannon/dynamic punch to hypnosis is not fair, and there is a reason why sleep moves always have been more popular than these two (barring no guard users). If you take anything used to try to switch into zap cannon zapdos, odds are they will probably be fine even if zap cannon hits: you are still expecting to be hit by stab electric moves and potentially get para'd in the process (Because you might face the more standard discharge zapdos). Dynamic Punch inflicts confusion, which is not as threatening as sleep: it can last 1 to 4 turns (compared to sleep's 1 to 3 turns), however it only has a 33% chance to prevent you from moving each turn, and wears off if you switch out. Of course you could make an argument to ban confusion inducing stuff, but I don't think that's necessary.

It is absolutely fair to compare these together. They are all 50% accuracy just like Dark Void. 50% of the time, nothing happens and you get punished for it. 50% of the time, you get massive reward for it since you get damage (not much but Bad Dreams is still chip with Dark Void hitting) and status inflicted. This is RNG personified. High risk, high reward. You cannot be saying that because it's strong that it's broken. This is an incomplete argument. Clearly there has to be something else involved. Otherwise Hyper Beam Porygon Z Normal Tera with adaptability choice specs is busted because that is HELLA STRONG. And it still sucks, because there are clearly issues involved. Clearly, sleep is something far more punishing. If you said THAT and EXCLUSIVELY THAT then we would be getting somewhere. Maybe the RNG with using a sleep move is just uncompetitive in ways the RNG of Dynamic Punch and Zap Cannon are not.

The sleep clause people really need to just be saying sleep is uncompetitive. And we strive to make a competitive meta game. Is this not getting through? Do I need to say it louder or softer? We ban sleep because as of now, the users of it are using it to uncompetitive degree and banning Darkrai and co is off the table so we ban sleep instead, even though obviously Dark Void isn't broken but we're too lazy to deal with that. Not because of Sleep Clause being fake. Not because of Amoonguss being an okay Pokemon. Not because we are racist to Butterfly Pokemon. Because sleep is not needed for stability. Plain. Simple. Done.

Watch me drown in misery anyway.

 

[Skyuchi]

Dark Void Darkrai makes that 50% of the time! 60% with Hypnosis. Baton Pass works 100% of the time. When you click Baton Pass, 100% of the time you are switching out (assuming you aren't taunted, statused, ko'ed etc beforehand). When you click the sleep button on these first two options, there is a pretty sizable chance that the strategy won't work at all. Sure when they DO connect it can be an issue but I want you to ask yourself this? Is it anymore annoying than a random paralysis, a random flinch, a random freeze etc? Status in general is just good and your team should have some means of answering status.

The only difference is that sleep is a deliberate status. You can't guarantee a freeze or a flinch. You can safely guarantee paralysis a lot of the time but not that it will always work and actually prevent your opponent from moving. Sleep gives you some safe turns based on RNG entirely. Some games, your opponent wakes up turn one and kills you. Other games, you quiver dance Venomoth twice and sweep (epic btw.) The problem is that sleep is just a superior status condition to everything else and as such it is uncompetitive to deal with it, especially because of the RNG with certain setters getting the move off in the first place. Nobody is seriously complaining about Amoonguss, they're not. They're complaining about Darkrai, maybe Iron Valiant. That Amoonguss or Brute Bonnet has to be piloted effectively against a meta game where Two Tapus can blank status, where Garganacl is everywhere and in a meta game where Amoonguss and friends just aren't that great of Pokemon sadly (this ain't Amoonguss' glory days.) There is a degree of skill in using Spore, Yawn (especially cause its two turns) or even Sleep Powder/Lovely Kiss since that can hit reliably. You are going out your way to bank upon sleep being one of your plans. It's a deliberate choice. Hypnosis is not really skill since it's a slightly even coin flip. And Dark Void is a pure coin flip. A player that uses Dark Void, if we banned Hypnosis instead, GET GOOD! Okay, get good. We do not need to worry about these idiots. Baton Pass this ain't. If they somehow win a tournament with dark void darkrai, maybe your team just isn't that good against status in general. Hypnosis I can sympathize with to a degree, not much, but too a degree.



It is absolutely fair to compare these together. They are all 50% accuracy just like Dark Void. 50% of the time, nothing happens and you get punished for it. 50% of the time, you get massive reward for it since you get damage (not much but Bad Dreams is still chip with Dark Void hitting) and status inflicted. This is RNG personified. High risk, high reward. You cannot be saying that because it's strong that it's broken. This is an incomplete argument. Clearly there has to be something else involved. Otherwise Hyper Beam Porygon Z Normal Tera with adaptability choice specs is busted because that is HELLA STRONG. And it still sucks, because there are clearly issues involved. Clearly, sleep is something far more punishing. If you said THAT and EXCLUSIVELY THAT then we would be getting somewhere. Maybe the RNG with using a sleep move is just uncompetitive in ways the RNG of Dynamic Punch and Zap Cannon are not.

The sleep clause people really need to just be saying sleep is uncompetitive. And we strive to make a competitive meta game. Is this not getting through? Do I need to say it louder or softer? We ban sleep because as of now, the users of it are using it to uncompetitive degree and banning Darkrai and co is off the table so we ban sleep instead, even though obviously Dark Void isn't broken but we're too lazy to deal with that. Not because of Sleep Clause being fake. Not because of Amoonguss being an okay Pokemon. Not because we are racist to Butterfly Pokemon. Because sleep is not needed for stability. Plain. Simple. Done.

Watch me drown in misery anyway.

I really do not understand this argument. If Darkrai landing a sleep move is overpowered in OU, it doesn't matter whether that sleep move is 100% accurate or 1% accurate. Its existence should not be in the tier, either by removing its ability to sleep or by removing it itself.
Adding more RNG to something doesn't make it any more competitive. We banned OHKO moves for that reason. Especially given sleep can sometimes effectively be like KOing a Pokémon, or be even stronger than due to allowing a turn for setup.
Fissure even has a 100% counterplay in switching in a Flying type, but we still say '30% of the time this ruins the game, therefore it is banned'.
Dark Void would 50% of the time ruin the game...the logic doesn't follow to allow it.
If it still had pre-nerf Dark Void we would probably all agree it should be Uber. But because it does that same thing except it's more reliant on RNG, it's fine?
If a Pokemon hitting its moves is too much for the tier, it sounds like that either that Pokemon or that move is too much for the tier because the counterplay is luck.

 

[Patar136]

I really do not understand this argument. If Darkrai landing a sleep move is overpowered in OU, it doesn't matter whether that sleep move is 100% accurate or 1% accurate. Its existence should not be in the tier, either by removing its ability to sleep or by removing it itself.

You are assuming that Darkrai landing a sleep move is game breaking in and of itself. That it can win games on the spot instantaneously. It is more complicated than that. Like I said, sometimes sleep gives you three turns of paralysis (sometimes it doesn't.) Sometimes you wake up turn one and kill Darkrai. Sometimes Darkrai kills you then gets revenge killed. Sometimes Darkrai makes progress against you but you don't lose. Sometimes Darkrai sweeps your entire team afterward. Sometimes sometimes sometimes.

The problem is the sometimes. If it were as black and white as Darkrai being able to win just by clicking, and landing, a sleep inducing move we would not be having this conversation. The problem is Darkrai being too much. That's not the issue, because while Darkrai is strong it isn't broken since we didn't ban it.

The issue is the sleep being sometimes. Sometimes. And that sometimes has a name. It's called RNG.

Let's just ban sleep because Crobat learns Hypnosis. Makes about as much sense as what people have said so far.

 

[The N@me User]

I think something we should acknowledge, regardless of what we individually think about Sleep, is that this discussion is worthless if the Clause removal/Banning of Sleep moves is held by Council vote and not the people actually discussing Sleep.

Asking the players to discuss it, only to be decided by no one outside the Council, just initiates useless discussion on a subject that no one discussing can actually participate in, meaning it was either brought up to:

1) Influence some Council members on whether or not Sleep should stay.

2) Make sure that Banning Sleep didn't seem to come "out of nowhere", since the topic was brought up pre-ban.

Sleep should have a Suspect Test, or any conversation about it is useless. Many Council members have already admitted their mind is made up, so if we go with SV OU's way, we essentially rile the community up about something that was never in their control to begin with.

 

[hidin]

yes it will likely be a council decision, suspects are not used for stuff like sleep clause and you can look somewhere on finchinators twitter why that is the case

i hope with this information given out the discussion about sleep in this thread can at least steam down. its been pretty back-and-forthy and quite tiring to read about. why not talk about some things like what you see on ladder with the NDLG ongoing or something?
ill link it when i get home

 

[The N@me User]

yes it will likely be a council decision, suspects are not used for stuff like sleep clause and you can look somewhere on finchinators twitter why that is the case
ill link it when i get home

Imo the conversation of Sleep is/has been useless then because Council members have already gave their opinion and everyone arguing in the thread can't actually do anything one way or the other, having no actual effect on whether it goes or stays.

I think we should all move on from the subject and let the Council come to their own decision if that's how the voting process is going. Most points have already been made.