Why is Dirge being discussed for ban? It's a great unaware wall that's not passive. It's not remotely broken in Natdex.
I didn't say dirge was broken with tera, I said that without tera dirge would be a lot weaker.diirge is good w tera but i dont think is banworthy
I would add TorkoalHello folks, It's me, the Dewd of that sun team guide you absolutetly read(if not, feel free to check it out). Anyway, after doing my guide I have opposing sun team with mons that werent exactly on my guide, so... I wanted to give my overall opinion on them, so think of this as bonus round:
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And of course, I can't forget about these lil ones
I'll be using the happy whoppers in order to rank these mons up, the more the better.
1= effective, yet not needed to function
2= great, solid, and overall an excellent option.
3= an important piece for the teams function.
and as this one, is the opposite, the mon either doesntdo much of anything, or its just outclassed badly in the role that it isnt worth trying.
So without firther a do, lets rank em up:
I'm pretty sure the first stand out of this pokemon is it's ability, Magic Bounce, which reflects all non attacking moves back towards the user. This alone is great for the team to have, similoar to how Xatu was used in gen 5 OU on sun teams, this one takes the role of a anti hazard mon, which teammates like Torkoal, Scovillain, and more importantly, Mega Charizard Y really appreciate. It's also far from passive, as it's 136 spatk is quite the treat, and it also enjoys a little sunbath so it can use Mystical Fire to great effect. It's also quite bulky and has a decent defensive typing, it can also paralyze mons without fear of Taunt due to Magic Bounce just, bouncing it them of, however it doesnt need Thunder Wave, as it can also run the move Nuzzle, which is admitangly weak and its physical, but it does garantee paralysis with a 100% accurate move. It also has a potential to sweep with Calm Mind, recover itself threw Draining Kiss and can support the team further with Healing Wish, allowing worned down mons like Torkoal or Great Tusk to have another shot. The main issue with Hatterene is that it is slow, in fact Slowbro of all pokemon is 1 speed point faster than it, so using this stop setup and sweep isnt that reliable even with the Magic Bounce protecting it. Still, it is worth mentioning do, as it provides far more than just Magic Bounce, if done right, it can a valid team player. For Tera types it can go either offensively of defensively, offense, either Fairy, Psychic or Even Fire can help, as for defensive, Water and Steel do quite well.
Cinderace's Libero may have been nerfed, but that doesn't seem to stop Cinderace for being a solid pick. Cinderace plays rather similarly in sun teams as it normally does without it. But of course, being a Fire type with a recoil free Flare Blitz doesn't seem bad. Now it's Normalium Z Sd set is still pretty strong, as it allows him to bypass certain walls on its way like...:
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeap, everyone's favorite wall, the Pex. But that's not all, as Cinderace can pretty reliabpy run Heavy Duty Boots, allowing it to bypass the hazards that are currently thrown in this metagame, speaking of hazard bypassing, Cinderace does not only bypass them, but it also has a literal Uno reverse card-like move for them, in Court Change, nothing like the opponent setting up Stealth Rocks, 3 layers of Spikes, and 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, only for Cinderace to just pass them right back at them(Not even Gholdengo can stop this btw), and if it was just hazards, that would be fine, however it can also reverse screens, stealing them for Cinderace's teammates to abuse. Its also good decent high hitting coverage moves in Gunk Shot and High Jump Kick, priority in Sucker Punch, and even momentum in U-turn. Kinda feel sorry to have left such a potentially solid mon for Sun to enjoy, but I hope with this edition I made thr soccer mom*coughs* I mean bunny, some justice. As for tera types, just Fire does good in the Offensive Pivot set.
At first, a man convinced me once I fought and even loss to his sun team using this mon. I had to make a mentioning on this mon. To be fair, it does have some solid qualities, First it's bulk, it is quite the tank if Im being honest, it also has Levitate, which sun teams love to pair up with, and it has quite support movepool, it can eithet run Dual screens, a defensive stall like strategy, Calm Mind does give more bulk as well as some potential wallbreaking, but that is where my second part about this mon comes in, it is very passive, 75 spatk is not making a sweeper anytime soon, and its not that fast either at 85 speed. Sure its bulky, and its movepool can allow it to become a excellent partner in sun teams, but it just doesnt seem to do enough, still, in comparison to other ones with the ranking, its not bad, but if want a defensive psychic type with decent support moves, Hatterene can also do that job, while also being part Fairy, a more solid defensive type as result, and unlike Cresselia, its far from passive, the only reason you would justify using it over Hatterene is Leviate, and either Washtom of Tornadus Therian can provide a ground immunity while accomplishing a bit more. Still, if you wanna give it a shot, Tera Fairy, Water of Stell might be fine for defensive, but sun prefers offense over defense so not highly recomended either.
Now I'm pretty sure there is a couple that are missing that are good, but there is more than a 1000 mons out there, so keeping in track is not so easy, anyway I felt like giving u some extra teams for you to try out for you to test out:
https://pokepast.es/84dea2e20657f5c9 Chef Scovy Sun ft. Mega Chomp
https://pokepast.es/e8f8a420da624182 The Bunny & The Hat Sun Trick.
If anyone can think of a Pokemon that is worth mentioning for sun teams that I haven't, I would be happy if you can let me know. Hope you guys enjoyed this lil' extra.
Torkoal was the first thing I spoked about in the previous guide, lol. This is a second part to the guide, feel free to check the actual guide.I would add Torkoal
I consistently beat it with Trick Gholdengo. It's usually running Dazzling Gleam, Stored Power and CM. Tricking any choice item removes the threat of CM/Dazzling Gleam and if it doesn't spam Stored Power those boosts are useless. So Gholdengo checks it when it just spams Stored Power and even if it manages to muscle past Gholdengo, switch in a Dark-type or keep a Tera in reserve for it.Yesterday this mon came up in conversation on the discord and I asked the same question in a couple of channels: What actually consistently answers Espathra?
The only answer that I got consistently and didn't incite debate as to whether it was an answer or not was Tera Dark Clodsire. (Edit: adem has brought Whirlwind Ting-Lu to my attention which also works but doesn't really change the general point of the post very much.)
That's it.
For those who don't know, you pair this thing with Screens Koko on HO, give it an Elec seed, Tera Water (or Steel/Fighting but those aren't as consistent imo) and then CM/Roost/Stored Power/Tera Blast (or DGleam but I think Tera Blasts are better). To say it becomes an absolute monster would be an understatement. This thing has snowball potential that I haven't seen since the CM Mage sets and Smashtoise days of Gen 8, and it genuinely might be more dangerous than those two if played correctly.
What makes it even more busted is how easy it is to support and facilitate a sweep. Screens Koko is a perfect partner for multiple reasons, and that's not even all it has going for it. Cyclizar can pass Subs to it and make beating it defensively even harder. Gambit helps out against Pult, which can irritate that core if it gets a DD off, and is just good on HO anyway. Mega Gyarados is a fun option with it too, as it beats most of what Espa doesn't like, also benefits from Cyc, and works well in an HO core with another physical attacker. I haven't tried Lucha with it yet but I think it could theoretically be really good as it also benefits from Koko and covers bad matchups well with its Fighting STAB. Other options include your own Pult, Dnite, basically any other physical attacker that could slot into the offensive core. The real star is Espa tho, the thing is absolute bonkers and is a higher priority than Pult, Zama, or any of our other brokens imo.
Curious what others think about it.
I'm perplexed how you could think it's only on the level of Hawlucha when Espathra snowballs significantly quicker and easier, and has a very short list of responses, especially considering she'd tail support. Also calling speed boost worse than soul-heart when talking stored power sweeping is iffy to me, since speed boost eases set up and allows it to fully invest in bulk. As far as Gholdengo goes as a check, this fails if Espathra is behind a sub from Cyclizar, and dark types can't handle it when it runs tera blast.Espathra is frankly weaker than Magearna running the same sets. Worse stats and ablity and really only gets one chance to sweep. To me it's on the same level as unburden Hawlucha.
Annihilape moved from UUBL to OU
Kartana moved from UU to OU
Tapu Lele moved from UU to OU
Hoopa-Unbound moved from New to OU
Rillaboom moved from New to OU
Blissey moved from OU to UU
Chansey moved from OU to UU
Cresselia moved from OU to UU
Torkoal moved from OU to UU
Venusaur moved from OU to UU
Lele and Kart reclaiming their rightful places in OUusage shifts for Natdex OU for February, what are your thoughts on them?Code:Annihilape moved from UUBL to OU Kartana moved from UU to OU Tapu Lele moved from UU to OU Hoopa-Unbound moved from New to OU Blissey moved from OU to UU Chansey moved from OU to UU Cresselia moved from OU to UU Torkoal moved from OU to UU Venusaur moved from OU to UU
usage shifts for Natdex OU for February, what are your thoughts on them?Code:Annihilape moved from UUBL to OU Kartana moved from UU to OU Tapu Lele moved from UU to OU Hoopa-Unbound moved from New to OU Blissey moved from OU to UU Chansey moved from OU to UU Cresselia moved from OU to UU Torkoal moved from OU to UU Venusaur moved from OU to UU
I am dumb and forgot rilla so he is there now, sorry!usage shifts for Natdex OU for February, what are your thoughts on them?Code:Annihilape moved from UUBL to OU Kartana moved from UU to OU Tapu Lele moved from UU to OU Hoopa-Unbound moved from New to OU Rillaboom moved from New to OU Blissey moved from OU to UU Chansey moved from OU to UU Cresselia moved from OU to UU Torkoal moved from OU to UU Venusaur moved from OU to UU
im not surprised by most of these, however its been years since the blobs dropped so that could be interesting. At least we got rid of hoopa-unbound down in ru, though im surprised it didnt go into uu/uubl. It's also nice to see sun in UU too.usage shifts for Natdex OU for February, what are your thoughts on them?Code:Annihilape moved from UUBL to OU Kartana moved from UU to OU Tapu Lele moved from UU to OU Hoopa-Unbound moved from New to OU Rillaboom moved from New to OU Blissey moved from OU to UU Chansey moved from OU to UU Cresselia moved from OU to UU Torkoal moved from OU to UU Venusaur moved from OU to UU
I'm really confused how this is here. It's been extremely mid at best in my experience, given tornT being as excellent as ever, but other typical headaches for it still existing.
So okay. I really cannot say anything, its just okay
Everything here makes and is deserved sense except for Rilla and Hoopa-U.usage shifts for Natdex OU for February, what are your thoughts on them?Code:Annihilape moved from UUBL to OU Kartana moved from UU to OU Tapu Lele moved from UU to OU Hoopa-Unbound moved from New to OU Rillaboom moved from New to OU Blissey moved from OU to UU Chansey moved from OU to UU Cresselia moved from OU to UU Torkoal moved from OU to UU Venusaur moved from OU to UU
Hawlucha doesn't snowball, but as an Electric Seed sweeper, it only needs one turn of setup before attacking.I'm perplexed how you could think it's only on the level of Hawlucha when Espathra snowballs significantly quicker and easier
Sounds like the bigger problem is Cyclizar....has a very short list of responses, especially considering she'd tail support. Also calling speed boost worse than soul-heart when talking stored power sweeping is iffy to me, since speed boost eases set up and allows it to fully invest in bulk. As far as Gholdengo goes as a check, this fails if Espathra is behind a sub from Cyclizar, and dark types can't handle it when it runs tera blast.
Wrong quote, I guess.Hawlucha doesn't snowball, but as an Electric Seed sweeper, it only needs one turn of setup before attacking.
Sounds like the bigger problem is Cyclizar.
Looking past Annihilape and Espathra; Dragapult, ID Zamazenta, offensive Kommo-o and SD Urshifu-S are also extremely hard to handle when behind a Cyclizar sub. Shed Tail from Orthworm is much easier to handle, so it's definitely a Cyclizar problem.
fyi we would honestly probably just ban cyclizar lol, shed tail on orthworm is so mediocre imo even if the move is broken. you have no source of recovery and running some kind of wish passer to rectify that is still wack bc 1. shed tail on a bo/fat/balance is odd, 2. running wish on ho is literally awful, and 3. we dont rly have many super solid wish passers anw. its also just incredibly slow and is guaranteed to get hit out of 2nd shed tail range after using it once.I would like to emphasize that Cyclizar is a broken menace that should have been banned earlier. All because of Shed Tail.
It's basically Baton Pass and Substitute combined together! And we all know how infuriating to the point of Moodyness Baton Pass is. So this conversation is something we need to deal with.
And no, that isn't an exaggeration because of how damn strong that move is. With Regenerator, it gets to do that at least twice, maybe even three times, in a well played game featuring this draconic menace. Before we consider things like a Espartha, Annihilape, Dragapult, Zamazenta and such, we should probably consider banning Shed Tail before anything else. Lest we also forget about things like Scale Shot Garchomp (who can go Mega btw and OHKO almost everything), Mega Charizard X with Tough Claws and a free switch in on turn one because Stealth Rocks aren't on the field, Tera Grass Volcarona and Heatran who can just avoid getting revenge killed and shatter your defensive core and almost any variation of Dragon Dance Dragonite.
Cyclizar's Shed Tail just removes counterplay. Either your lead can handle shed tail, or it can't. If you send out an anti lead to stop your anti Cyclizar measure and if they fail to stop you, game's can end really quickly.
So I support a Shed Tail Ban, and failing that, a Cyclizar ban.
this is a horrible comparison and not at all the same thing, the enormous difference which u seem to have avoided between baton pass + sub and shed tail is that SHED TAIL DOES NOT PASS STAT BOOSTS. Hence why comparing it to Moody + Baton Pass IS ALSO A FALSE EQUIVALENT SINCE IT DOES NOT PASS STAT BOOSTS, WHICH IS THE WHOLE PART OF WHY PASS IS BROKEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.I would like to emphasize that Cyclizar is a broken menace that should have been banned earlier. All because of Shed Tail.
It's basically Baton Pass and Substitute combined together! And we all know how infuriating to the point of Moodyness Baton Pass is. So this conversation is something we need to deal with.
Esp is busted even without sub, and what the previous person mistook is that you don't need shed to beat ghold, and most things, shed just makes it better! tera is the issue. Cyc is not the problem. Same with some of the rest, pult again how r u not breaking sub / not walling it, if u cant ur team probably loses to dd pult regardless lol. id zama is a fish set, regardless with sub or not u either really struggle with this set or u don't, it can sub itself just like pult. cant say abt kommo o since i haven't seen it bar once, but I'm just gna assume its the same as pult, same with shifu, its nice obv to have sub but realistically unless u only load fat most of the time its just a free switch in.Sounds like the bigger problem is Cyclizar.
Looking past Annihilape and Espathra; Dragapult, ID Zamazenta, offensive Kommo-o and SD Urshifu-S are also extremely hard to handle when behind a Cyclizar sub. Shed Tail from Orthworm is much easier to handle, so it's definitely a Cyclizar problem.
Melmetal mightthere's no way you run out of PPs with other mon on TR.
Melmetal is banned, and even in that case it doesn't worth it. In most cases you will get LD applied to a healthy, full-HP mon that has 2-3 PPs used. CB Tera Steel Melm was so spammable, but Punching Gloves with coverage was also an excellent choice. Healing Wish is more useful than Lunar Dance as you are not forced to avoid switching to mons that have already used a move in order to keep recovery.Melmetal might
Sounds like shifting blame. Annihilape is no more facilitated by shed tail than it is by screens support. It's just a different form of support. Espathra is broken with or without shed tail. The move makes it, and any set up mon, better than they already are. Pult... Not hard to break its sub. Pult also can set its own sub up, so it doesn't need Cyclizar. Unlike SV OU, natdex is a much faster tier that usually just turns shed tail into a pseudo pivot. Which is nice, but not broken.Sounds like the bigger problem is Cyclizar.
Looking past Annihilape and Espathra; Dragapult, ID Zamazenta, offensive Kommo-o and SD Urshifu-S are also extremely hard to handle when behind a Cyclizar sub. Shed Tail from Orthworm is much easier to handle, so it's definitely a Cyclizar problem.
Definitely! I honestly didn't intend to make it seem like I was saying Esp needed shed tail. I was more so trying to show that minor support can eliminate even that kind of counterplay.and what the previous person mistook is that you don't need shed to beat ghold, and most things, shed just makes it better!