diirge is good w tera but i dont think is banworthy
Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
Why is Dirge being discussed for ban? It's a great unaware wall that's not passive. It's not remotely broken in Natdex.
I didn't say dirge was broken with tera, I said that without tera dirge would be a lot weaker.
Hello folks, It's me, the Dewd of that sun team guide you absolutetly read(if not, feel free to check it out).
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/page-5#post-9475876
Anyway, after doing my guide I have opposed sun teams with mons that werent exactly on my guide, so... I wanted to give my overall opinion on them, so think of this as a bonus round:
And of course, I can't forget about these lil ones
I'll be using the happy whoppers in order to rank these mons up, the more the better.
1= effective, yet not needed to function
2= great, solid, and overall an excellent option.
3= an important piece for the teams function.
and as this one, is the opposite, the mon either doesn't do much of anything, or its just outclassed badly in the role that it isnt worth trying.
So without further a do, lets rank em up:
I'm pretty sure the first stand out of this pokemon is it's ability, Magic Bounce, which reflects all non attacking moves back towards the user. This alone is great for the team to have, similar to how Xatu was used in gen 5 OU on sun teams, this one takes the role of a anti hazard mon, which teammates like Torkoal, Scovillain, and more importantly, Mega Charizard Y really appreciate. It's also far from passive, as it's 136 spatk is quite the treat, and it also enjoys a little sunbath so it can use Mystical Fire to great effect. It's also quite bulky and has a decent defensive typing, it can also paralyze mons without fear of Taunt due to Magic Bounce just, bouncing it them of, however it doesnt need Thunder Wave, as it can also run the move Nuzzle, which is admitanly weak and its physical, but it does garantee paralysis with a 100% accurate move. It also has a potential to sweep with Calm Mind, recover itself threw Draining Kiss and can support the team further with Healing Wish, allowing worned down mons like Torkoal or Great Tusk to have another shot. The main issue with Hatterene is that it is slow, in fact Slowbro of all pokemon is 1 speed point faster than it, so using this to setup and sweep isnt that reliable even with the Magic Bounce protecting it. Still, it is worth mentioning do, as it provides far more than just Magic Bounce, if done right, it can a valid team player. For Tera types it can go either offensively of defensively, offense, either Fairy, Psychic or Even Fire can help, as for defensive, Water and Steel do quite well.
Cinderace's Libero may have been nerfed, but that doesn't seem to stop Cinderace for being a solid pick. Cinderace plays rather similarly in sun teams as it normally does without it, with 116 atk and 119 speed, it is quite the fearsome wallbreaker. And of course, being a Fire type with a recoil free Flare Blitz doesn't seem bad to have sun boosted. Now it's Normalium Z Sd set is pretty strong, as it allows him to bypass certain walls on its way like...:
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeap, everyone's favorite wall, the Pex. But that's not all, as Cinderace can pretty reliably run Heavy Duty Boots, allowing it to bypass the hazards that are currently thrown in this metagame, speaking of hazard bypassing, Cinderace does not only bypass them, but it also has a literal Uno reverse card-like move for them, in Court Change, nothing like the opponent setting up Stealth Rocks, 3 layers of Spikes, and 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, only for Cinderace to just pass them right back at them(Not even Gholdengo can stop this btw), and if it was just hazards, that would be fine, however it can also reverse screens, stealing them for Cinderace's teammates to abuse. Its also good decent high hitting coverage moves in Gunk Shot and High Jump Kick, priority in Sucker Punch, and even momentum in U-turn. Kinda feel sorry to have left such a potentially solid mon for Sun to enjoy, but I hope with this edition I made the soccer mom *coughs* I mean bunny, some justice. As for tera types, just Fire does good in the Offensive Pivot set.
At first, a man convinced me once I fought and even loss to his sun team using this mon. I had to make a mentioning on this mon. To be fair, it does have some solid qualities, First it's bulk, it is quite the tank if Im being honest, it also has Levitate, which sun teams love to pair up with, and it has quite support movepool, it can eithet run Dual screens, a defensive stall like strategy, support your teams with Healing Wish, and Calm Mind does give more bulk as well as some potential wallbreaking. But that is where my second part about this mon comes in, it is very passive, 75 spatk is not making a sweeper anytime soon, and its not that fast either at 85 speed. Sure its bulky, and its movepool can allow it to become a excellent partner in sun teams, but it just doesnt seem to do enough, still, in comparison to other ones with the ranking, its not bad, but if you want a defensive psychic type with decent support moves, Hatterene can also do that job, while also being part Fairy, a more solid defensive type as result, and unlike Cresselia, its far from passive, the only reason you would justify using it over Hatterene is Leviate, and either Washtom of Tornadus Therian can provide a ground immunity while accomplishing a bit more. Still, if you wanna give it a shot, Tera Fairy, Water of Stell might be fine for defensive, but sun prefers offense over defense so not highly recomended either.
Now I'm pretty sure there is a couple that are missing that are good, but there is more than a 1000 mons out there, so keeping in track is not so easy, anyway I felt like giving u some extra teams for for you to test out:
Chef Scovy Sun ft. Mega Garchomp
The Bunny & The Hat Sun Trick.
If anyone can think of a Pokemon that is worth mentioning for sun teams that I haven't, I would be happy if you can let me know. Hope you guys enjoyed this lil' extra.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/page-5#post-9475876
Anyway, after doing my guide I have opposed sun teams with mons that werent exactly on my guide, so... I wanted to give my overall opinion on them, so think of this as a bonus round:
And of course, I can't forget about these lil ones
I'll be using the happy whoppers in order to rank these mons up, the more the better.
1= effective, yet not needed to function 2= great, solid, and overall an excellent option. 3= an important piece for the teams function. and as this one, is the opposite, the mon either doesn't do much of anything, or its just outclassed badly in the role that it isnt worth trying.So without further a do, lets rank em up:
I'm pretty sure the first stand out of this pokemon is it's ability, Magic Bounce, which reflects all non attacking moves back towards the user. This alone is great for the team to have, similar to how Xatu was used in gen 5 OU on sun teams, this one takes the role of a anti hazard mon, which teammates like Torkoal, Scovillain, and more importantly, Mega Charizard Y really appreciate. It's also far from passive, as it's 136 spatk is quite the treat, and it also enjoys a little sunbath so it can use Mystical Fire to great effect. It's also quite bulky and has a decent defensive typing, it can also paralyze mons without fear of Taunt due to Magic Bounce just, bouncing it them of, however it doesnt need Thunder Wave, as it can also run the move Nuzzle, which is admitanly weak and its physical, but it does garantee paralysis with a 100% accurate move. It also has a potential to sweep with Calm Mind, recover itself threw Draining Kiss and can support the team further with Healing Wish, allowing worned down mons like Torkoal or Great Tusk to have another shot. The main issue with Hatterene is that it is slow, in fact Slowbro of all pokemon is 1 speed point faster than it, so using this to setup and sweep isnt that reliable even with the Magic Bounce protecting it. Still, it is worth mentioning do, as it provides far more than just Magic Bounce, if done right, it can a valid team player. For Tera types it can go either offensively of defensively, offense, either Fairy, Psychic or Even Fire can help, as for defensive, Water and Steel do quite well.
Cinderace's Libero may have been nerfed, but that doesn't seem to stop Cinderace for being a solid pick. Cinderace plays rather similarly in sun teams as it normally does without it, with 116 atk and 119 speed, it is quite the fearsome wallbreaker. And of course, being a Fire type with a recoil free Flare Blitz doesn't seem bad to have sun boosted. Now it's Normalium Z Sd set is pretty strong, as it allows him to bypass certain walls on its way like...:
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeap, everyone's favorite wall, the Pex. But that's not all, as Cinderace can pretty reliably run Heavy Duty Boots, allowing it to bypass the hazards that are currently thrown in this metagame, speaking of hazard bypassing, Cinderace does not only bypass them, but it also has a literal Uno reverse card-like move for them, in Court Change, nothing like the opponent setting up Stealth Rocks, 3 layers of Spikes, and 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, only for Cinderace to just pass them right back at them(Not even Gholdengo can stop this btw), and if it was just hazards, that would be fine, however it can also reverse screens, stealing them for Cinderace's teammates to abuse. Its also good decent high hitting coverage moves in Gunk Shot and High Jump Kick, priority in Sucker Punch, and even momentum in U-turn. Kinda feel sorry to have left such a potentially solid mon for Sun to enjoy, but I hope with this edition I made the soccer mom *coughs* I mean bunny, some justice. As for tera types, just Fire does good in the Offensive Pivot set.
At first, a man convinced me once I fought and even loss to his sun team using this mon. I had to make a mentioning on this mon. To be fair, it does have some solid qualities, First it's bulk, it is quite the tank if Im being honest, it also has Levitate, which sun teams love to pair up with, and it has quite support movepool, it can eithet run Dual screens, a defensive stall like strategy, support your teams with Healing Wish, and Calm Mind does give more bulk as well as some potential wallbreaking. But that is where my second part about this mon comes in, it is very passive, 75 spatk is not making a sweeper anytime soon, and its not that fast either at 85 speed. Sure its bulky, and its movepool can allow it to become a excellent partner in sun teams, but it just doesnt seem to do enough, still, in comparison to other ones with the
ranking, its not bad, but if you want a defensive psychic type with decent support moves, Hatterene can also do that job, while also being part Fairy, a more solid defensive type as result, and unlike Cresselia, its far from passive, the only reason you would justify using it over Hatterene is Leviate, and either Washtom of Tornadus Therian can provide a ground immunity while accomplishing a bit more. Still, if you wanna give it a shot, Tera Fairy, Water of Stell might be fine for defensive, but sun prefers offense over defense so not highly recomended either.Now I'm pretty sure there is a couple that are missing that are good, but there is more than a 1000 mons out there, so keeping in track is not so easy, anyway I felt like giving u some extra teams for for you to test out:
Chef Scovy Sun ft. Mega Garchomp The Bunny & The Hat Sun Trick.If anyone can think of a Pokemon that is worth mentioning for sun teams that I haven't, I would be happy if you can let me know. Hope you guys enjoyed this lil' extra.
Last edited:
I would add TorkoalHello folks, It's me, the Dewd of that sun team guide you absolutetly read(if not, feel free to check it out). Anyway, after doing my guide I have opposing sun team with mons that werent exactly on my guide, so... I wanted to give my overall opinion on them, so think of this as bonus round:
View attachment 488286
And of course, I can't forget about these lil ones
I'll be using the happy whoppers in order to rank these mons up, the more the better.
So without firther a do, lets rank em up:
I'm pretty sure the first stand out of this pokemon is it's ability, Magic Bounce, which reflects all non attacking moves back towards the user. This alone is great for the team to have, similoar to how Xatu was used in gen 5 OU on sun teams, this one takes the role of a anti hazard mon, which teammates like Torkoal, Scovillain, and more importantly, Mega Charizard Y really appreciate. It's also far from passive, as it's 136 spatk is quite the treat, and it also enjoys a little sunbath so it can use Mystical Fire to great effect. It's also quite bulky and has a decent defensive typing, it can also paralyze mons without fear of Taunt due to Magic Bounce just, bouncing it them of, however it doesnt need Thunder Wave, as it can also run the move Nuzzle, which is admitangly weak and its physical, but it does garantee paralysis with a 100% accurate move. It also has a potential to sweep with Calm Mind, recover itself threw Draining Kiss and can support the team further with Healing Wish, allowing worned down mons like Torkoal or Great Tusk to have another shot. The main issue with Hatterene is that it is slow, in fact Slowbro of all pokemon is 1 speed point faster than it, so using this stop setup and sweep isnt that reliable even with the Magic Bounce protecting it. Still, it is worth mentioning do, as it provides far more than just Magic Bounce, if done right, it can a valid team player. For Tera types it can go either offensively of defensively, offense, either Fairy, Psychic or Even Fire can help, as for defensive, Water and Steel do quite well.
Cinderace's Libero may have been nerfed, but that doesn't seem to stop Cinderace for being a solid pick. Cinderace plays rather similarly in sun teams as it normally does without it. But of course, being a Fire type with a recoil free Flare Blitz doesn't seem bad. Now it's Normalium Z Sd set is still pretty strong, as it allows him to bypass certain walls on its way like...:
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeap, everyone's favorite wall, the Pex. But that's not all, as Cinderace can pretty reliabpy run Heavy Duty Boots, allowing it to bypass the hazards that are currently thrown in this metagame, speaking of hazard bypassing, Cinderace does not only bypass them, but it also has a literal Uno reverse card-like move for them, in Court Change, nothing like the opponent setting up Stealth Rocks, 3 layers of Spikes, and 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, only for Cinderace to just pass them right back at them(Not even Gholdengo can stop this btw), and if it was just hazards, that would be fine, however it can also reverse screens, stealing them for Cinderace's teammates to abuse. Its also good decent high hitting coverage moves in Gunk Shot and High Jump Kick, priority in Sucker Punch, and even momentum in U-turn. Kinda feel sorry to have left such a potentially solid mon for Sun to enjoy, but I hope with this edition I made thr soccer mom*coughs* I mean bunny, some justice. As for tera types, just Fire does good in the Offensive Pivot set.
At first, a man convinced me once I fought and even loss to his sun team using this mon. I had to make a mentioning on this mon. To be fair, it does have some solid qualities, First it's bulk, it is quite the tank if Im being honest, it also has Levitate, which sun teams love to pair up with, and it has quite support movepool, it can eithet run Dual screens, a defensive stall like strategy, Calm Mind does give more bulk as well as some potential wallbreaking, but that is where my second part about this mon comes in, it is very passive, 75 spatk is not making a sweeper anytime soon, and its not that fast either at 85 speed. Sure its bulky, and its movepool can allow it to become a excellent partner in sun teams, but it just doesnt seem to do enough, still, in comparison to other ones with the
Now I'm pretty sure there is a couple that are missing that are good, but there is more than a 1000 mons out there, so keeping in track is not so easy, anyway I felt like giving u some extra teams for you to try out for you to test out:
https://pokepast.es/84dea2e20657f5c9 Chef Scovy Sun ft. Mega Chomp
https://pokepast.es/e8f8a420da624182 The Bunny & The Hat Sun Trick.
If anyone can think of a Pokemon that is worth mentioning for sun teams that I haven't, I would be happy if you can let me know. Hope you guys enjoyed this lil' extra.
Torkoal was the first thing I spoked about in the previous guide, lol. This is a second part to the guide, feel free to check the actual guide.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/page-5#post-9475876
I consistently beat it with Trick Gholdengo. It's usually running Dazzling Gleam, Stored Power and CM. Tricking any choice item removes the threat of CM/Dazzling Gleam and if it doesn't spam Stored Power those boosts are useless. So Gholdengo checks it when it just spams Stored Power and even if it manages to muscle past Gholdengo, switch in a Dark-type or keep a Tera in reserve for it.
Espathra is frankly weaker than Magearna running the same sets. Worse stats and ablity and really only gets one chance to sweep. To me it's on the same level as unburden Hawlucha.
Cyclizar is another matter entirely. It's an annoying Pokemon whenever it appears and can enable threats like Espathra to be much harder to stop.
I'm perplexed how you could think it's only on the level of Hawlucha when Espathra snowballs significantly quicker and easier, and has a very short list of responses, especially considering she'd tail support. Also calling speed boost worse than soul-heart when talking stored power sweeping is iffy to me, since speed boost eases set up and allows it to fully invest in bulk. As far as Gholdengo goes as a check, this fails if Espathra is behind a sub from Cyclizar, and dark types can't handle it when it runs tera blast.
Code:
Annihilape moved from UUBL to OU
Kartana moved from UU to OU
Tapu Lele moved from UU to OU
Hoopa-Unbound moved from New to OU
Rillaboom moved from New to OU
Blissey moved from OU to UU
Chansey moved from OU to UU
Cresselia moved from OU to UU
Torkoal moved from OU to UU
Venusaur moved from OU to UUusage shifts for Natdex OU for February, what are your thoughts on them?
Last edited:
All these three rising are highly deserved. Annihilape has been highly controversial due to Rage Fist and its ability to just cause so much pressure to be put on the opponent due to it being an extremely amazing wincon. Tapu Lele does Tapu Lele shenanigans as usual, and now can just own so much Pokemon due to Tera Psychic, and Kartana is an amazing Pokemon, it has so much utility and strength right now and it is just in general a good substantial offensive Pokemon. Overall, I'm not shocked by these three rising.
What does this even do? Only merit I see for it are Tera Dark Hyperspace Hole sets, but that's just wasting a Tera on a Pokemon that can already do a large amount of damage to the meta already. I've heard some people use it for Trick Room, but yet again, Trick Room is nothing more than an inconsistent niche ever since Melmetal left. Don't use this.
Sun looks like it has merit due to the introduction of Protosynthesis Pokemon like Great Tusk and Slither Wing, but in a Rain dominated meta I think it just is really inconsistent right now. Mega Charizard Y is better though!
EDIT
So okay. I really cannot say anything, its just okay.
I am dumb and forgot rilla so he is there now, sorry!
im not surprised by most of these, however its been years since the blobs dropped so that could be interesting. At least we got rid of hoopa-unbound down in ru, though im surprised it didnt go into uu/uubl. It's also nice to see sun in UU too.
So okay. I really cannot say anything, its just okay
I'm really confused how this is here. It's been extremely mid at best in my experience, given tornT being as excellent as ever, but other typical headaches for it still existing.
Onto actually relevant mons,
Annihilape: I'm just more surprised it took this long. Ape is an incredible and potent wincon that's quite difficult to play against due to the punishing nature of rage fist, and Ape itself is a very potent abuser of tera to escape would be bad match ups.
Tapu Lele: Also surprised it took this long to rise back up. But ladder gonna ladder. Lele actually being bolstered by tera which lets it perform absurdities with its psychic stab and makes it a very potent force in the metagame.
Kartana: I think it's nice to have back and back to it's usual duties as an offensive pokemon. I haven't seen much discussion of it as a tera abuser, so I won't comment there, but it generally has great utility with knock off on top of its nice power and speed.
The drops, I mean blissey/Chansey should've dropped sooner but cresselia dropping is to be expected after melmetal's ban.
I've seen the Player Survey is not available anymore, and since I couldn't fill it on time I will share my thoughts here. In my opinion, Pult, Damp Rock and Zama should be (at least) suspected, in that order. I think Pult is just OP by itself, as it can perform multiple roles and all of them are extremely powerful. Rain and Zama get stronger due to Tera, forcing you to build around them. I'm okay with Tera (although it's difficult to deal with some mons like V-Create Tera Victini), but the menace of fast threats like DD Pult, CB Tera Zama or CB Tera Floatzel brings a lot of pressure. The rise of Rilla could be related to the popularity of rain teams rn.
I'm enjoying this meta but I find it harder than ever to play Balance. Dual screens HO (Grimmsnarl/Koko + Cyclizar), Rain/Sun teams and even TR seems to be way better at this moment. Gholdengo, Kingambit and Tusk are a headache too, but not as broken as Pult.
I'm enjoying this meta but I find it harder than ever to play Balance. Dual screens HO (Grimmsnarl/Koko + Cyclizar), Rain/Sun teams and even TR seems to be way better at this moment. Gholdengo, Kingambit and Tusk are a headache too, but not as broken as Pult.
Everything here makes and is deserved sense except for Rilla and Hoopa-U.
Rilla only beats bad rain teams which I suppose makes it an OK choice on ladder but good rains have mons like Torn Zap and Ferro that naturally beat Rilla (idm I don't wanna hear about your Elec Tera SD set). Honestly the best set is probably Band bc at least that can kind of break but still definitely bad, not sure why this is ranked at all.
Hoopa-U is even more egregious lol, using that mon in the current meta with all the offense running around sounds like pure pain and almost every good offensive mon in the tier just kills this thing outright. Fight Z sets could crack fat ok IG but u need to be NP Fight Z to beat Ting-Lu and a lot of fats can still irritate this thru stuff like Torn and Tera Fairy Garg so...yeah idk what this thing is doing up here.
Ok some other stuff now.
Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Weather Ball
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
I think that Specs Pelipper deserves a serious look in this meta, it's always been a surprisingly good breaker but almost never worth running because the rain turns are too important to waste. However, I view partial rain as very viable right now, Mega Pert and one other swift swimmer paired with other traditional offensive mons works pretty well overall as long as your willing to fit some fairly severe anti-rain measures elsewhere. Specs Peli is a big part of this since the defensive meta is basically incapable of confidently switching into this unless u have Washtom, which can be U-turned out on and can realistically only switch in once. You drown any weather changers with Hydro Pump. Tera Water or Flying amps the power to pretty titanic levels as well. Not a staple breaker or anything but a legitimate threat in the metagame. This is also how I think rain stays relevant if Damp Rock is banned but that's not really relevant rn so...
Smeargle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Own Tempo
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Spikes
- Revival Blessing
- Trick
This is a funny set right now, fast Spores and Spikes are always good for HO, and Tera Ghost with Trick can potentially ruin Dnite, but the real thing here is the speedy revival blessing to give whatever sweeper you want on ur offense another shot, or give the broken breaker another chance to be broken. Very simple and kind of cheesy set but its worth having a strange utility mon to give something like Espa, Pult, Zama, Ghold, Gambit, or w/e another shot to sweep.
Holey SMOKES. Since Ape got bumped into OU, I decided I got to use it more. With some ideas borrowed from BH, Covet Cloak completely crushes the hopes of opponents trying to burn with Scald from Toxapex and Slowbro and other hax like Confusion from Hurricane, and most notably, able to 1v1 GARG. Just slap a cloak on with Taunt and you back the opponent to a wall late-game.
NOTTHEMOKEY (Annihilape) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Rage Fist
- Drain Punch
- Taunt
NOTTHEMOKEY (Annihilape) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Rage Fist
- Drain Punch
- Taunt
Hawlucha doesn't snowball, but as an Electric Seed sweeper, it only needs one turn of setup before attacking.
Sounds like the bigger problem is Cyclizar.
Looking past Annihilape and Espathra; Dragapult, ID Zamazenta, offensive Kommo-o and SD Urshifu-S are also extremely hard to handle when behind a Cyclizar sub. Shed Tail from Orthworm is much easier to handle, so it's definitely a Cyclizar problem.
I've been playing Trick Room the last few weeks and it's so weird to notice Lunar Dance being far worse than Healing Wish in almost every scenario. LD is only better with Revival Blessing Pawmot as there's no way you run out of PPs with other mon on TR.
Wrong quote, I guess.
Wrong quote, I guess.
I would like to emphasize that Cyclizar is a broken menace that should have been banned earlier. All because of Shed Tail.
It's basically Baton Pass and Substitute combined together! And we all know how infuriating to the point of Moodyness Baton Pass is. So this conversation is something we need to deal with.
And no, that isn't an exaggeration because of how damn strong that move is. With Regenerator, it gets to do that at least twice, maybe even three times, in a well played game featuring this draconic menace. Before we consider things like a Espartha, Annihilape, Dragapult, Zamazenta and such, we should probably consider banning Shed Tail before anything else. Lest we also forget about things like Scale Shot Garchomp (who can go Mega btw and OHKO almost everything), Mega Charizard X with Tough Claws and a free switch in on turn one because Stealth Rocks aren't on the field, Tera Grass Volcarona and Heatran who can just avoid getting revenge killed and shatter your defensive core and almost any variation of Dragon Dance Dragonite.
Cyclizar's Shed Tail just removes counterplay. Either your lead can handle shed tail, or it can't. If you send out an anti lead to stop your anti Cyclizar measure and if they fail to stop you, game's can end really quickly.
So I support a Shed Tail Ban, and failing that, a Cyclizar ban.
It's basically Baton Pass and Substitute combined together! And we all know how infuriating to the point of Moodyness Baton Pass is. So this conversation is something we need to deal with.
And no, that isn't an exaggeration because of how damn strong that move is. With Regenerator, it gets to do that at least twice, maybe even three times, in a well played game featuring this draconic menace. Before we consider things like a Espartha, Annihilape, Dragapult, Zamazenta and such, we should probably consider banning Shed Tail before anything else. Lest we also forget about things like Scale Shot Garchomp (who can go Mega btw and OHKO almost everything), Mega Charizard X with Tough Claws and a free switch in on turn one because Stealth Rocks aren't on the field, Tera Grass Volcarona and Heatran who can just avoid getting revenge killed and shatter your defensive core and almost any variation of Dragon Dance Dragonite.
Cyclizar's Shed Tail just removes counterplay. Either your lead can handle shed tail, or it can't. If you send out an anti lead to stop your anti Cyclizar measure and if they fail to stop you, game's can end really quickly.
So I support a Shed Tail Ban, and failing that, a Cyclizar ban.
fyi we would honestly probably just ban cyclizar lol, shed tail on orthworm is so mediocre imo even if the move is broken. you have no source of recovery and running some kind of wish passer to rectify that is still wack bc 1. shed tail on a bo/fat/balance is odd, 2. running wish on ho is literally awful, and 3. we dont rly have many super solid wish passers anw. its also just incredibly slow and is guaranteed to get hit out of 2nd shed tail range after using it once.
this is a horrible comparison and not at all the same thing, the enormous difference which u seem to have avoided between baton pass + sub and shed tail is that SHED TAIL DOES NOT PASS STAT BOOSTS. Hence why comparing it to Moody + Baton Pass IS ALSO A FALSE EQUIVALENT SINCE IT DOES NOT PASS STAT BOOSTS, WHICH IS THE WHOLE PART OF WHY PASS IS BROKEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Ok now that that part is corrected and hopefully settled, you list no ways and don't actually explain why its actually broken???? you just say that it can do it twice / 3 times because of cycs regen, and that some mons are scary because you cant revenge kill them apparently because sub is up??? I am personally completely DNB on shed tail and see no reason to even look at it before any of the other threats considering how at most all it does is enable another winning condition and in the best case punish bad play. A lot of the time the most it does is get something in safely (akin to a slow turn) since cyc subs really arent that hard to break, and when you really arent able to break the sub (maybe some defensive mon like pex scald), generally you'll have something to wall whatever was passed the sub because your team is fat. It passing the sub to things is really predictable and it does not take much processing skill to guess where its being passed to. Most of the times, losses with cyc passing the sub to something and that something winning with / without utilising that sub generally means even without that sub you probably lost to that something anyways at that point, just took a bit longer.
tldr: 99% of the time if they successfully get sub passed (it doesn't break as they swap in, or cyc doesn't just die), and you don't have any hard counterplay to it at that point, 99% of the time u played and positioned urself awful to get to that point, especially if its that predictable.
E:
Esp is busted even without sub, and what the previous person mistook is that you don't need shed to beat ghold, and most things, shed just makes it better! tera is the issue. Cyc is not the problem. Same with some of the rest, pult again how r u not breaking sub / not walling it, if u cant ur team probably loses to dd pult regardless lol. id zama is a fish set, regardless with sub or not u either really struggle with this set or u don't, it can sub itself just like pult. cant say abt kommo o since i haven't seen it bar once, but I'm just gna assume its the same as pult, same with shifu, its nice obv to have sub but realistically unless u only load fat most of the time its just a free switch in.
Last edited:
Melmetal might
Melmetal is banned, and even in that case it doesn't worth it. In most cases you will get LD applied to a healthy, full-HP mon that has 2-3 PPs used. CB Tera Steel Melm was so spammable, but Punching Gloves with coverage was also an excellent choice. Healing Wish is more useful than Lunar Dance as you are not forced to avoid switching to mons that have already used a move in order to keep recovery.
Finally remembered to respond (meant to do so sooner).
Sounds like shifting blame. Annihilape is no more facilitated by shed tail than it is by screens support. It's just a different form of support. Espathra is broken with or without shed tail. The move makes it, and any set up mon, better than they already are. Pult... Not hard to break its sub. Pult also can set its own sub up, so it doesn't need Cyclizar. Unlike SV OU, natdex is a much faster tier that usually just turns shed tail into a pseudo pivot. Which is nice, but not broken.
Definitely! I honestly didn't intend to make it seem like I was saying Esp needed shed tail. I was more so trying to show that minor support can eliminate even that kind of counterplay.
But yeah. Espathra is majorly broken and very much unenjoyable to play against.
Sounds like shifting blame. Annihilape is no more facilitated by shed tail than it is by screens support. It's just a different form of support. Espathra is broken with or without shed tail. The move makes it, and any set up mon, better than they already are. Pult... Not hard to break its sub. Pult also can set its own sub up, so it doesn't need Cyclizar. Unlike SV OU, natdex is a much faster tier that usually just turns shed tail into a pseudo pivot. Which is nice, but not broken.
Definitely! I honestly didn't intend to make it seem like I was saying Esp needed shed tail. I was more so trying to show that minor support can eliminate even that kind of counterplay.
But yeah. Espathra is majorly broken and very much unenjoyable to play against.