Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Patar136]

As funny as it is to imagine a Deoxys defense using Stored Power, Psycho Shift, Rest and Taunt to utterly wreck some teams, or Sigilyth or Mega Latias doing the same thing, that's not exactly something we should be too afraid of because of how ridiculously gimmicky it is.

We just ban sleep in general. Mostly Hypnosis to be honest, since that is the premier case of RNG nonsense in this tier, but losing sleep powder, yawn and spore aren't gonna ruin things since not a ton of Pokemon use those. Amoonguss can live without sleep. Venusaur and Lilligant-H can bear to live without sleep powder. And the Yawn abusers can get by without Yawn anyway.

And if it turns out paralysis gets to become a massive issue, we ban that too if necessary. But until that happens, lets just get rid of sleep because it's an uncomepetive gimmick first and foremost nowadays.

And if people are upset because they wanna use sleep? Well good news, VGC exists and you can do whatever you want with sleep over there.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

And if people are upset because they wanna use sleep? Well good news, VGC exists and you can do whatever you want with sleep over there.

I’ll take the rest of your post at face value, but what is this statement? This statement just seems overly arrogant. You can’t just tell, say, a ND player to “go play Custom Game or Doubles”, can you?

Anyways.

 

[Patar136]

If we play with sleep banned then the only way to play with sleep in tact will be to find another tier that allows sleep. Plain and simple.

It's the same as if somebody who was like "Hey, I wanna play a game where I can use one Uber." You go to custom games for it.

Sleep is arguably one of the most powerful statuses in the meta game. But it is not stable. You know it, we all do. It is why we cannot keep it unrestricted. We must ban it from national dex, despite the niches it creates for certain Pokemon. And having counterplay to sleep is not absolute. The less we have to do with sleep, the better.

 

[Kyo]

Not to interrupt the discussion going on here... but imma plug this mini VR update

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-viability-rankings.3714511/post-9939288

 

[Patar136]

I spam it on rain, I try to make the most of it, I see others use it too.

And we STILL don't have Kingdra on the Viability rankings.

One day King of all Dragons. One day.

 

[Dahness]

Pecharunt is perfect for its spot, not too good of a mon, but not too bad either, can get the job done most of the time from my experience, just sucks its typing makes it weak both to eq and knock

 

[G-Luke]

Niche in ag for qd and sleep pow. Well do you mean it'll be A tier in natdex for that? Sure it is the best form of abusing sleep, but just Look At vivillon. And then Look At, idk, gouging fire. I hope that, as the tier leader, you see even a bit of difference. vivillon is slow comparer to AG stuff (mostly 90 speed lads) where itd be outclassed by vd liligant h, itself worn off by valiant If you know How to play against it. Ok by unviable ivmeant spore, but just do you know
That
In the tier
There is
Such thing as
Taunt Koko? Taunt offensive pokemon, Other than being Really worth It, kinda invalidates the setup sleep stuff. vivillon is a good example, sure, you got a point, but have you thought about the lack of coverage, physical bulk, reliability of vivillon? VIVILLON? ok taunt doesnt fit in every archetype. Sowhat? Change team. it'll be a new meta.


Sooo all agree that sleep clause does its Job just fine. All know that sleep right now is alright, but some people that didn't even bouche the game just want to fight anyways, All know that sleep isn't broken, All know that the reason of this discussion is totally arbitrary. Altho the meta Will have to adapt, leave ONE WEEK And you'll see that sleep is not that relevant. The lack of acvuracy of The moves, The power of grass And terrain, The lack of accuracy So, the only argument of banning sleep is:

Hide

Hide

Hide

sleep clause isn't reproduceable on cartridge.

HOW. MEANINGLESS. IS THAT.
I could Give a lonnng list of what's wrong with this argument. Bru natdex autorizes trailblaze heracross mega but obviously Because of the obviousness of the fact there can't be such thing as wish+teleport blissey.
(ノ｀⊿´)ノnonsense.
Define reproduceable on cartridge, cause my switch can play pokemon stadium, IN WHICH THERE IS A SLEEP CLAUSE.


The solution to this would be to change sleep clause So it's reproduceable on cartridge. Done. And nO, you just dont bRING arguments against that.

Bro is waffling. The point being made is that a shitmon in standard play is viable solely because it's a set up sweeper with reliable Sleep. Obviously, if it can pull that off in AG, it can pull that off in a NatDex meta (or any meta, since this has site wide consequences) where the power level is substantially lower. Honestly, the arguments you are presenting aren't making sense. It seems like you're just debating for debating's sake.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

you didn't mention Darkrai a single time which leads me to believe you don't actually play the tier

I do play the tier sadly, and i'll be honestly with you I Never met a darkrai. Never on ladder or in roomtour there was a darkrai. PLUS darkrai is frail and outsped by Koko lol what is that excuse. can't switch in, sure, but would it be becUse of darkrai or because you slapped hypnosis on the set. You know, the only imo viable set of darkrai is Scarf, in which You dont run hupno If You can connect 3 neurones. Sleep is worse paralysis cause anyways You have 30% chances or So to wake up every turn Eh? So even If You have less chances to move, At least You can outspeed. sleep clause is just fine and sleep should not be banned for the sake of the enjoyment of battles. RNG being uncompetitive should include critical hits, paralysis, freeze, accuracy, more and more.

What? You what?

encore requires the opponent to not have clicked a move that hits you hard & be slower

which is Why valiant is So fast! So honestly You are 100% gonna ignore that it's not reliable? You can't setup on an aslept mon as it'll Most likely wake up before You can do anything. sleep is neat, but Fr Fr twave is just slightly better. Encore gives You free turns more reliably than sleep, is more accurate, and While You dIE to offensive move, You dIE to offensive move Also when You miss hypno. darkrai is fake. Scarf lele, Scarf shifu, kokovaliant, boosté valiant, Koko, All of that win against it. And nO, You DONT run hypno either on valiant or darkrai, You have damn GOOD moves to slap in. So R8 mentionned Good exemples of sleep being Very strong/ broken, but the actual argument of sleep clause is dumb. You dont want it for the sake of not wanting it.

So Now Im supposed to say "Oh my god, You are right! sleep clause is awful!" No. Showdown has sleep clause since a lotta time And it's done its Job Very Well, with nO GOOD reason to remove it. If only there was a real argument. No, There is only the "I dont like it" And I assure You I hate dondozo, its special bulk is greater than mega gardevoir's, but for objectiveness's sake I know it is manageable. Moreover, sleep ban wouldn't be anything Good for the meta. Just restricting pokemon for the sake of it is lame. If valiant And darkrai are sooooo terrifying (no) Why not banning THEM instead cause sleep has done Nothing wrong for like 9 years Now or so

 

[Patar136]

Okay, I'm gonna do my best to address these.

1.) Whether or not YOU alone have issues with Darkrai does not a decision make.

2.) Darkrai does NOT just run Scarf. In addition to Specs Darkrai, you have all the nasty plot z variants. You have substitute Darkrai and Thunder Wave Darkrai. Not to mention Hypnosis Darkrai.

3.) The RNG of sleep is a lot more noticeable and manageable compared to things like critical hits and paralysis. We CAN take action on these fronts reasonably well without changing much.

4.) Darkrai is not as frail or bad as you make it out to be.

5.) Encore is not guaranteed to work the way you describe it. It can very easily fail.

6.) Sleep being banned would do some good to the meta by removing a fringe RNG strategy.

Just because we agree that the arguments around sleep clause being removed aren't the best does not justify your other arguments. Take some time to reflect.

 

[Kyo]

Our sample teams have received a new look thanks to Amuetur!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-sample-teams.3714863/

 

[Amuetur]

Our sample teams have received a new look thanks to Amuetur!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-sample-teams.3714863/

Yay

 

[The N@me User]

Pecharunt is perfect for its spot, not too good of a mon, but not too bad either, can get the job done most of the time from my experience, just sucks its typing makes it weak both to eq and knock

Earthquake is more of a hindrance than Knock Off from what I've experienced. It's Bulk is so high that Knock Off rarely gets it low enough to even 2HKO it afterwords unless it's taken chip, but taking random Earthquakes always sucks.

In my opinion, Parting Shot is pretty mandatory if you don't want to be passive into Steel or Poison types, since Nasty Plot + Shadow Ball sets aren't terrible but don't definitively beat certain mons while Parting Shot allows your responses to actually come in without as much of an issue, particularly if it's a predicted switch.

If you pair it with a couple SpDef mons that can handle Steel and Poison matchups while doing well into Dark and Ghosts (Ting-Lu or Heatran being good examples, though the latter doesn't like Grounds either), it can do it's thing far better than if it's there's nothing to really switch in to its answers.

Of course, the issue is that your support will end up being repeatedly chipped down if Pecharant can't so anything to them, so you sort of have to ask yourself whether you want to devote 1-2 Mons to support it or not, or rather, if it's worth running on a specific team to begin with.

Somewhere in the B-Range suits it imo.

 

[adem]

Earthquake is more of a hindrance than Knock Off from what I've experienced. It's Bulk is so high that Knock Off rarely gets it low enough to even 2HKO it afterwords unless it's taken chip, but taking random Earthquakes always sucks.

In my opinion, Parting Shot is pretty mandatory if you don't want to be passive into Steel or Poison types, since Nasty Plot + Shadow Ball sets aren't terrible but don't definitively beat certain mons while Parting Shot allows your responses to actually come in without as much of an issue, particularly if it's a predicted switch.

If you pair it with a couple SpDef mons that can handle Steel and Poison matchups while doing well into Dark and Ghosts (Ting-Lu or Heatran being good examples, though the latter doesn't like Grounds either), it can do it's thing far better than if it's there's nothing to really switch in to its answers.

Of course, the issue is that your support will end up being repeatedly chipped down if Pecharant can't so anything to them, so you sort of have to ask yourself whether you want to devote 1-2 Mons to support it or not, or rather, if it's worth running on a specific team to begin with.

Somewhere in the B-Range suits it imo.

parting shot sets are outclassed pretty much entirely by gking, and idk how steels or poisons beat it np sets lol, just plot more then hex. the set that got it ranked even is np, otherwise it would be completely unviable (frankly i dont think its very viable to begin with, and more of a c tier mon)

 

[Dahness]

parting shot sets are outclassed pretty much entirely by gking, and idk how steels or poisons beat it np sets lol, just plot more then hex. the set that got it ranked even is np, otherwise it would be completely unviable (frankly i dont think its very viable to begin with, and more of a c tier mon)

Even with Nasty Plot, it can't do much to things like heatran, but im not gonna lie,i have used it a bunch and its worth using, can do a lot of silly stuff once u eliminate their steel types and special attackers

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Even with Nasty Plot, it can't do much to things like heatran, but im not gonna lie,i have used it a bunch and its worth using, can do a lot of silly stuff once u eliminate their steel types and special attackers

A lot of stuff can do stuff when you're 4-0 fyi. pecharunt is not Even as strong as a ghost as aegislash and Even it is C- or something.

 

[Dahness]

A lot of stuff can do stuff when you're 4-0 fyi. pecharunt is not Even as strong as a ghost as aegislash and Even it is C- or something.

i did not reffer directly to a 4-0 situation, i just said it can do fine if u eliminate steel types and special attackers

 

[CappyThePulpy]

i did not reffer directly to a 4-0 situation, i just said it can do fine if u eliminate steel types and special attackers

Steel is one of the best types due to how hard it is to eliminate. So after finally elminating steel types, I would much rather bring in lele and start killing stuff instead of poisoning and confusing

 

[Ineros]

In the bullder, when I’m looking for something to check ival, as a balance/bo guy I have noticed one trend in my thinking; or ?

Both do very similar roles as pivots which are able to provide help to wallbreakers such as Zamazenta and mmedi with future sight while also pivoting them in safely. Both are also specially defensive pivots which also check ival, Zapdos, and Mega diancie. They also lose to many of the same things, such as the ever present ground types like Lando and Glisc and also get pursuit trapped by weavile and mtar. But is it really that simple, or is it that in reality both do very different things? Let’s take a look. This is mainly for future me to have some help when trying to find a fitting ival check for a team lol.

Ok, I know that stored power sets exist but for the sake of this post I will be talking about Assault vest/boots sets. The most obvious difference between these two is that iron crown is steel type, which is a much better secondary type than poison. A steel type is much appreciated to help check some dangerous threats in Tapu lele and nasty plot tornt, which can tear apart more bulky teams quite easily. It also has access to fighting coverage in focus blast to hit ting Lu, mtar, heatran, and Ferro. Although this is a neat option, I feel the main difference between these 2 movewise is psychic noise. Yes I know slowking also gets this, but it just doesn’t have the slots to fit it, as it usually wants to run twave/slack off/flamethrower. Psychic noise, although being the same power as the notoriously bad brick break and drain punch, has a much, much better effect; you can stop HEALING moves, as well as recovery items like leftovers and Gliscor’s poison heal. With this effect, iron crown can much more efficiently break down Pokémon with recovery (along with Tera) such as garganacl and Alomomola. Yes, THE Alomomola. It also has stronger fsights than glowking. Iron crown also has the small small advantage of not having its pivot move be shut down by taunt, which can be useful in some scenarios. There’s just one issue, though; iron crown NEEDS the assault vest in order to more consistently check things like ival and np torn, which is very awful for a pivot since it means you become spikes weak. In conjunction with no recovery (which admittedly is solved by Mola existing) the chip damage racks up very, quickly. Sure you COULD run boots, but you lose resilience into ival and are much less consistent into it.

After listing so many things that Iron crown can do better than glowking, you may be asking “then what use does this thing have? Why is it higher on the viability rankings?” Well, there are many things that it does better than iron crown. For one, it actually has longevity! With regenerator, it is able to heal off any stray chip damage and stay throughout the course of an entire game. It also has some nice options that it can run in its last slot; twave for speed control and slowing down offensive threats like Volcarona and Tapu lele, while it can also use flamethrower to act as a good mega Scizor and Ferrothorn lure for balance teams that can struggle vs mega Scizor. Slack off is also very appreciated reliable recovery. Sludge bomb also provides actual utility unlike tachyon cutter, being able to poison and wear down mons and actually hit waterpon and rilla for really good damage. With glowking’s higher naturally higher special bulk, it doesn’t need av as much and can instead run heavy duty boots, which is much better for a pivot than av. Although this section on glowking was shorter, the ability of actually having great longevity gives glowking the edge over iron crown in my opinion.

So what’s the verdict?
I feel Glowking is more suited for balance teams, which appreciate the longevity it gives while also bringing good utility in thunder wave and being a good msciz lure. Iron crown feels more suited for offense/bulky offense teams that like the stopgap into Tapu lele which those styles kinda don’t like playing against. It also helps wear down opponents for your offense via psychic noise just denying recovery and the chip damage you get through volt switch. Bulky offense is also where you find Mola the most imo which is a very good iron crown partner.

 

[Patar136]

You know what, I'm gonna have another hot take.

I hate Stored Power. I want Stored Power BANNED!

Why you say? This is a joke right? No, it's not. I hate it. I hate how this, in what my opinion, brain dead strategy is able to do. It can cheese victories that were in sight and take your skill out of the game. And I have heard the arguments. Just use a dark type, use steel types, use unaware Pokemon or fazing moves yada yada. Yeah, and make yourself worse against other teams by accounting for this.

Call me crazy. Call me stupid. But I hate stored power and probably write a series of essays about why it's dumb. And if you look at it carefully, I think you might realize that maybe, just maybe, this braindead degenerate strategy is stupid and dumb.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

You know what, I'm gonna have another hot take.

I hate Stored Power. I want Stored Power BANNED!

Why you say? This is a joke right? No, it's not. I hate it. I hate how this, in what my opinion, brain dead strategy is able to do. It can cheese victories that were in sight and take your skill out of the game. And I have heard the arguments. Just use a dark type, use steel types, use unaware Pokemon or fazing moves yada yada. Yeah, and make yourself worse against other teams by accounting for this.

Call me crazy. Call me stupid. But I hate stored power and probably write a series of essays about why it's dumb. And if you look at it carefully, I think you might realize that maybe, just maybe, this braindead degenerate strategy is stupid and dumb.

Stored power IS a strong move. I just passed by saying that having a dark type (particularly Mtar) or a steel (whoever the fuck would it be jirachi, archaludon or tera steel stuff) is NOT making your team worse. it's just restricting, and in that way stored power would be a TopTier move. Unaware is not a counter to stored power, as the BP is the actual strength of the move.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

You know what, I'm gonna have another hot take.

I hate Stored Power. I want Stored Power BANNED!

Why you say? This is a joke right? No, it's not. I hate it. I hate how this, in what my opinion, brain dead strategy is able to do. It can cheese victories that were in sight and take your skill out of the game. And I have heard the arguments. Just use a dark type, use steel types, use unaware Pokemon or fazing moves yada yada. Yeah, and make yourself worse against other teams by accounting for this.

Call me crazy. Call me stupid. But I hate stored power and probably write a series of essays about why it's dumb. And if you look at it carefully, I think you might realize that maybe, just maybe, this braindead degenerate strategy is stupid and dumb.

So first of all: somebody lost to stored power
Secondly dark types exist
Third if you are that worried run mons to expressly counter stored power trade offs are everywhere in team building so cope

 

[Patar136]

We can revisit the Stored Power bullshit, which it is, later on.

So anyway, sleep has been banned from OU. It's about time we revisit whether it's gonna have to be banned here as well? It is rather uncompetitive as of late since most of the sleep abusers are using Hypnosis, a stupid RNG move, rather than actual good moves like Spore or Yawn.

But I wouldn't be opposed to allowing sleep to exist in future generations of National Dex. Discuss.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Sleep is bullshit but it should be a suspect not a QB
No one liner rule
Is bullshit

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

We can revisit the Stored Power bullshit, which it is, later on.

So anyway, sleep has been banned from OU. It's about time we revisit whether it's gonna have to be banned here as well? It is rather uncompetitive as of late since most of the sleep abusers are using Hypnosis, a stupid RNG move, rather than actual good moves like Spore or Yawn.

But I wouldn't be opposed to allowing sleep to exist in future generations of National Dex. Discuss.

Could this be solved by banning Hypnosis? It's not like we can't ban a single move, after all, Baton Pass is banned. This way we can remove the RNG you cited while still keeping sleep around for the mons that use it in a healthy manner.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

You know, it may be an unpopular opinion but I want flinch, crit, para, and mostly hurricane ban. It's CRAZY how many games are decided on pure luck on this non luck-based game! Hurricane has 30% of miss, but Also 30% of confusion. We Don't have an efficient yet kinda fair mod that's served us for 10+ years.