BH Balanced Hackmons

[quojova]

Ceaseless Edge is banned from BH!
​

	Tea Guzzler	augustakira	quojova	Chessking345	TTTech
Ceaseless Edge	Ban	Ban	Suspect	Ban	Ban

Ceaseless Edge has been one of the most impactful new additions for Scarlet/Violet BH since the gen began, and it is not hard to see why. It completely invalidates Magic Bounce, which has historically been a significant part of the counterplay to hazards. Ceaseless Edge is used on close to every RegenVest set to guarantee progress with practically zero risk. Pokemon like RegenVest Ting-Lu and Dialga-Origin were omnipresent in the tier to switch in on a vast amount of defensive pokemon and a few special breakers to get up a free spike. The 65 base power that comes with it, while not the most impactful part of the move, also forced opposing defensive pokemon to eventually recover and give up momentum multiple times throughout a game. This caused the hazard removal/hazard setting balance to be skewed heavily in the hazard setter's favor. Outside of RegenVest, Ceaseless Edge is still extremely easy to throw on any pokemon, be it defensive or offensive, and cause a major headache for any potential switchin.

A few factors pushed Ceaseless Edge from being simply a meta staple to an unhealthy metagame presence. For one, the sheer power of spikes this consistent overshadowed many other win conditions in the builder. Compared to the unguaranteed, prediction-reliant progress made by say a choiced breaker, spikes offer consistent progress against virtually every team composition. In a gen where non-sap healing is limited to 8pp, this progress also comes quite quickly. Players have found that many of the most consistent teams in the current meta need to invest immensely in the hazard game, as playing with a losing hazard matchup can be outright unwinnable against a competent opponent. Relying on a single hazard removal option like Mortal Spin Groudon has often led to games (as seen in BH open) where the hazard remover is blocked or easily pressured and the game is already heavily skewed towards one side from team preview. All this resulted in the dominance of team archetypes where hazards fueled by Ceaseless Edge were effectively the primary win condition, seeking to win off suffocating the opponent's removal options while generating lots of momentum even if the spikes were removed. For all these reasons, Ceaseless Edge was deemed too much for the tier.

A ban on Ceaseless Edge will force hazard setting pokemon to make one of two choices: Either use regular spikes, which is negated by Magic Bounce, or alternatively use Stone Axe, which has many common resists in the tier and crucially cannot be stacked with itself. RegenVest pokemon opting for regular spikes must also now drop the Assault Vest, making them much worse at switching into special attacks without fear, which should make them less automatic as a switchin. We hope the metagame will enter a more stable state after this ban leading into OMPL, as currently no remaining elements in the tier have significant support for tiering action, but we are watching carefully to see if any other problematic aspects emerge.

Tagging Kris to implement.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

ok so it might be useful in explaining this in greater detail because it isn't immediately obvious why this is broken

What does Ceaseless Edge do?
It sets Spikes. You probably already know this, but the main thing of note here is that the Spikes aren't blocked by Covert Cloak and aren't reflected by Magic Bounce; there is no way to prevent the Spikes from going up.

What used it?
Realistically, pretty much anything with a spare moveslot. By far the most common users were RegenVest, as these could pivot in and decide to either grab Spikes with Ceaseless, momentum with U-turn, or (often) do both, all while not having to manually recover (and thus burning turns not getting Spikes or momentum). Other defensive mons could opt for this when padding moveslots, as there's very little drawback to doing so and is usually much better than the other options like Haze. Hybrid variants (attackers with CEdge to pressure hard-walls without relying on specific coverage) also existed but weren't exactly common.

Why was it a problem?
TL;DR is that it heavily overshadows other win conditions and makes high-level gameplay almost entirely focused around gaining the Spikes advantage. Removal options are there but actually getting to use it is another question, as the pool of consistent removal is pretty limited and most of it relies on getting the "Ceaseless vs U-turn" predict correct, and this is in addition to Ceaseless just having more PP than Tidy Up (the most common removal). This is also in addition to 8PP recovery (outside of the inconsistent Strength Sap) and the generally low viability of Flying-types / Magic Guard, meaning most teams' only way to negate the damage is with the removable Boots. It essentially centralizes teams' primary win conditions to an unhealthy degree.

Why did we Quickban it?
Short answer is that we just... didn't see anyone trying to defend it. Forum posts since the last ban set haven't really touched on it as much as we'd like, so we've mostly been monitoring conversation in Discord chats (main OM discord, a few private servers), and it's much of the same. If nobody came forward in the window that we presented, then it'd be safe to assume that nobody wants it to stay. Ceaseless Edge is also inherently something that has its biggest impact in high-level play, so a suspect would inherently be skewed by multiple "didn't see it so DNB" votes, which plays a much bigger role in the comparatively-small OMs than it does in the main tiers.

What changes?
Probably the biggest change is that RegenVest users now have to rely on Stone Axe to set hazards, which is good but not great; Stealth Rock can't be stacked and hits almost nothing relevant for super effective damage, and arguably the most common removal Pokemon (Groudon) resists them. Things need to use Spikes (move) to set Spikes (hazard), which re-introduces Magic Bounce as an ability that people would actually want to use. Strength Sap blocking is a pretty good strategy due to 8PP recover increasing Sap usage, which Bounce also helps with. Ting-Lu in particular tanks pretty hard, as RegenVest is still a good pivoting option but it forces significantly less progress (coping with Rocks is much easier than multiple layers of Spikes). Increased Rocks presence is likely to severely limit -ateSpin users (Enamorus, Arceus-Flying, Rayquaza), as these hate giving up damage-boosting items and Boots are probably just getting knocked by the most common Stone Axe users anyway.

 

[zezaktest]

thoughts on dire claw and triple arrows anyone

 

[Tea Guzzler]

thoughts on dire claw and triple arrows anyone

not very good. covert cloak is still reasonably common even post-zacian ban (and this just completely shuts those two down), and this is paired with the fact that there's only one "good" user of these (Koraidon) which has severe opportunity cost issues. mons doing nothing outside of cheesing past opponents have never been successful.

dire claw may be able to fit on slower pokemon like RegenVest users, as these will always have knock (and so you can fish for sleep against any non-steel), although this has similar opportunity costs. time spent fishing to maybe bypass sleep clause would generally be better spent clicking stone axe or u-turn.

arrows is generally won't work as cheese in the same way dire claw won't; no good abusers and luck reliance is bad. as an attack, it's in a pretty weird spot, as there's only 2 mons that would want to use it (Koraidon and Simple Arc-Ghost). koraidon on its most common choice band sets has 0 reason to use arrows, as you want damage on a choice bander and 2 close combats just outright out-damage arrows (even if the first one gets a defense drop or one of them crits). i generally find myself wanting the raw power from collision course more than arrows on arceus-ghost, as it OHKOes dialga-o and chansey and can OHKO ting-lu after spikes (none of which arrows does), and the chances of flinching your way through something like tera poison / fairy chansey or fc slaking are basically absent.

 

[Chessking345]

ok so it might be useful in explaining this in greater detail because it isn't immediately obvious why this is broken when we got a bunch of removal options available.

What removal options are there?
The removal options we have this gen are Defog, Tidy Up, Rapid Spin (+ ate Spin), Mortal Spin, and Court Change. Lets go over each of them and point out their major flaws.

Defog:
This move is just unviable. Its now blockable with Good as Gold, has the same PP as the damaging moves and less PP than the hazard moves, and does absolutely nothing else.

Tidy Up:
The most "reliable" removal option by virtue of being unblockable. Boosts help prevent hazards from just being setup again. However, this move has a low 16 PP when compared to the 24 and 32 PP of hazard setting moves. By virtue of being a setup move it also has issues with Imposter and improofing, since Imposter can generally 1v1 the user. Also, since its a status move, it cannot be used on RegenVest sets and thus users are generally worn down quite fast (think Groudon), making them highly susceptible to losing in the medium to long term to setters.

-ate Spin:
Technically more reliable than Tidy Up because of Rapid Spin's massive 64 PP, but -ate spinners aren't very good in the meta. All -ate users in the meta are either full special specs sets or mainly mixed wallbreakers who run Spin as a utility side move. Users like Enamorus and Rayquaza are not very sturdy to withstand repeated hits in the first place, and moves that hazard setters regularly run can heavily cripple them, such as Knock Off and either Mortal Spin or Nuzzle. Arceus-Fairy has a bit more longevity with its significantly higher bulk, but without a defensive ability it provides little defensive utility while being far weaker, and more susceptible to Imposter (which all -ate spinners have to deal with but with higher offenses and lower defenses Imposter is much more vulnerable).

Rapid Spin:
Rapid Spin is the only removal option with more PP than all of the hazard setting moves. Rapid Spin, however, also doesn't provide pressure compared to the other options, making it easier for opposing setters to just stay in and click moves (it makes up for this by out PPing though). Rapid Spin also gets blocked by Ghost-types, which is just Fur Coat Ghostceus, but is still an extremely challenging spinblocker to bypass with its immensely high physical bulk, lack of common weaknesses, and sufficient special bulk while having high offensive potential. Then there is also the rare but even bulkier Giratina to potentially worry about. The lack of Ghost variety also makes Imposter a larger issue, since whatever Spinner that can bypass Arceus-Ghost... will be much more difficult to spinblock Imposter too.

Mortal Spin:
Mortal Spin has the same PP as the damaging moves and less than the hazard moves. Mortal Spin is also spinblocked completely by Steel-types, of which Dialga-O and Corviknight, both very common Steels, force any Mortal Spinners that don't wish to get spinblocked by one of the two to run two moves to bypass both (either two moves to hit both for strong neutral STAB or super effective damage, or a strong neutral move and setup). This means all 4 moveslots are locked (last move recovery) and this is a moveset that provides lower utility, low offensive pressure, and crucially, no pivoting, making stuff like Ting-Lu just gain momentum. Mortal Spin Poisons also might be harmful sometimes, as targets then cannot be Toxiced.

Court Change:
Court Change is very unique from the other "removal" options. Court Change first relies on a team that needs to not care about hazards that much in the first place, which generally requires high Boots usage and offensive mons that dodge Spikes and/or have longevity (which means Choice users are generally out of the question). Court Change's biggest issue is its vulnerability to Imposter, which without trapping is hard to prevent the Imposter user from coming in and reverse Court Changing the hazards. This is why Court Change can't just be used on regular teams that well.

Lastly, it should also be noted that for all these removal options not only to they have to deal with the issues listed, but also the mons using the removal must also be able to somehow force out the hazard setters, which when they can just U-turn out or something to gain momentum is very difficult. With a move like Ceaseless the hazard setters can also just keep clicking the move even as the opponent is spamming removal, since if they don't click a removal move then there will be 2 layers of Spikes, unlike the interaction with Stone Axe.

 

[zezaktest]

Mortal Spin:
Mortal Spin has the same PP as the damaging moves and less than the hazard moves. Mortal Spin is also spinblocked completely by Steel-types, of which Dialga-O and Corviknight, both very common Steels

Corviknight isn't common, but you are right, every team at least has 1 steel type.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

so this is more of a tiering post but based on my own personal thoughts (yes i'm complaining about tera)

tl;dr here is that tera makes running non-maxed walls nearly impossible (by "maxed walls" i mean stuff like double fur coat or scales chansey). when basically every offensive mon in the tier can break 40%+ on defensive stuff with tera, and most hit 2HKO ranges with tera + one hazard, it becomes very hard to move away from these hyperwall-type teams unless you plan to just run over the opponent faster than they can you. i don't think this is a healthy way for tier to work and ultimately leads to rigid structures that lack diversity outside of which tera abusing breaker you want and your double fur coat options. just looking at some of the current breakers (and using arceus as a reference point):

physical -
tera dragon SoR is 9% to 2HKO +def with one hazard up / 89.8% with =def, 2HKO is guaranteed if +def is at 89% or lower / =def is 97% or lower. moldy glaive 2HKOes regardless of nature + doesn't need any hazards
10-hit life orb pop bomb (coil as they come in, attack as they sap) does min 58.5% with tera normal on +def / min 65.3% if =def. if arceus is paralyzed then slaking keeps the +1 attack, having a 93.8% chance to OHKO +def after rocks. guts does less damage (42.3% / 45.9% unboosted tera normal) but doesn't need the coil setup turn, and it still does enough to where sapblocking just once means slaking breaks through next time
moldy is not massively common thanks to corviknight but +1 plate is favoured to OHKO +def with rocks up
+speed tera fire arc-fire is 43.8% to OHKO +def fc without an item (with rocks), +atk is basically guaranteed and flame plate / life orb is actually guaranteed

special -
no relevant special wall resists ice, specs tera boomburst is 5.9% to 2HKO +spdef with rocks / 82.4% for =spdef, +spd guaranteed loses if it's 89% or lower
bundle but stronger, specs tera fairy pixiburst is 53.1% to 2HKO +spdef after rocks (arc loses if 94% or lower) and guaranteed into =spdef
+2 moldy energy / spout just OHKOes w/o tera, steam is guaranteed after rocks + tera, simple energy / spout is guaranteed with tera + rocks / steam 2HKOes (but you lose dragon weakness so you just click it twice)

so why am i going through all these calcs for the top meta stuff with rocks? i'd have hoped that most people would realize that you need to calc this stuff with rocks because they're just so piss easy to set up, and it's absurdly difficult to consistently remove the hazards in the time it takes the opponent to simply bring in a breaker. does banning axe fix this issue? in one sense, yes, but then bounce fishing becomes a very prevalent part of the meta, which both adds more matchup inconsistency and makes sapblocking (which a significant portion of walls already struggle with) a lot more easy to fit. as you can probably imagine, these factors are why teams pad themselves with multiple furscales mons / default to the very little that's bulkier than arceus, and thus why there's very little, if any, room for creativity in the builder.

my message here is that until we get tera gone teams are largely going to be the same hyper-bulked abominations in order to not lose to basically anything offensive. banning all of the above just isn't really reasonable and it also makes tiering a nightmare.

defensive tera also does not justify its existence at this point. using it is a severe opportunity cost and it rarely actually works outside of mons that have 0 room to flex their sets (which is not many).

 

[Poke★Blazer]

tbh i think just banning Ceaseless isnt enough and Hazards as a whole should be suspected/banned. also, Miraidon's Ability should banned instead of Miraidon itself. As for Imposter, ban Chansey/Blissey and keep Imposter around. one more thing that should be looked at, and possibly suspected, is Good as Gold.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

tbh i think just banning Ceaseless isnt enough and Hazards as a whole should be suspected/banned. also, Miraidon's Ability should banned instead of Miraidon itself. As for Imposter, ban Chansey/Blissey and keep Imposter around. one more thing that should be looked at, and possibly suspected, is Good as Gold.

OMs have a tiering policy that basically dictates the manner in which tiering can be done. One of the key concepts here is that, for the most part, you can't ban something that isn't problematic in order to make something that is problematic more manageable. This instantly rules out Hadron ban to nerf Miraidon and likely blocks Eviolite/Chansey & Blissey ban to nerf Imposter (Imposter just isn't problematic anyway so there's 0 reason to ever need to go this far).

Good as Gold is nowhere near problematic enough to be looked at. It denies little of value and carries a massive opportunity cost with it, and if you're using it on anything then you're running a setup sweeper, at which point FurScales or any offensive ability outclass it pretty heavily.

hazards ban is just a wild take, there is no reason to ever ban these

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

New Meta Sample Team Submission:

Team Name:

Synopsis: Offense: Specs Rayquaza + Pyschic Surge Mewtwo: THE RETURN OF FUNNY VOLCANO MAN

Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/b80b4575d2860d59

How to use: To be successful with this team, you must try and stay on the front foot as best as possible. Early game, I would generally scout for Chansey, and try and put yourself in a good position by using Arceus' calm mind to force in passive pokemon. I would then look for positions where Mewtwo can come in for free. The idea with Mewtwo is that sure, Regenvest Dialga-O and Ting Lu hard wall it, but with Koff, you're able to effectively cripple them, as Rayquaza will have opportunities later in the game to 2hko them using Boomburst. You also totally cripple any Chansey (imp and non imp, and do like 20% w/ u-turn). Landorus serves as the primary physical attacker, with not many pokemon able to wall it effectively. Groudon, being one of the most effective rarely has great moves to hit it, as it'll usually just be toxic - while also just letting in Rayquaza for free if you can afford it also being toxic's or making a good read on recovery. Zacian serves as additionally speed control, while also leveraging court change for some hazard control. Additionally, with ceaseless edge no longer in the game, bounce is much stronger (underratedly blocking strength sap too).

Espeed on Rayquaza might be a little finnicky with Psychic Surge mewtwo, but it can come in clutch situationally vs. Koraidon.
With all the Parting Shot passive prankster pokemon around, future sight Mewtwo can strike with devastating effect.

Some move options for the team:
Arceus Water - EP => Aromatherapy / filler
Zacian - Nuzzle => Glare

Other Options:
Some move options for the team:
Arceus Water - EP => Aromatherapy / filler
Zacian - Nuzzle => Glare
Mewtwo - Tera Fairy => Tera Psychic
Rayquaza - Tera Steel => Tera Flying

If you're feeling adventurous, Landorus-Therian can be swapped for Desolate Land Zacian, and you can add any other pokemon to the team, Palkia-Origin comes to mind as being especially dangerous.

Weaknesses:

• The speed control is admittedly so, a little finnicky as Koraidon is able to outspeed everyone. Zacian helps out with this, but it can get rocked by a gigaton hammer.
• Physical attackers are also in general hard to deal with, really relying on Arceus-Water and Imposter here, but the goal of the team should be to try and prevent them from coming in as much as possible. Additionally, all of the tera types add some defensive typing to the offensive guys, allowing them to tank a hit, and retaliate with an OHKO.
• Ice Scales Dialga-O can be a huge pain for this team, relying on just headlong rush Rayquaza catching it by surprise.
• Annoying regen stone axe loops can get annoying if you need rocks off.

Effectiveness:

• It has imposter, its gotta be at least decent on ladder
• I beat TTTech, Quojova & Onyx with the team
• It's pretty fun to use, and one of the few really aggressive teams I've seen in gen9bh, and takes advantage of the repetitive structures that gen9bh has fallen into

 

[gerninja]

I would like to share a team I built as a sample team. Did very well on ladder and is somewhat inspiried by Tea Guzzler and his amazing BH Dex documentation.

Team Name: Very simple offense

Synopsis: Simple Palkia + Simple Ghostceus + most broken mons in the tier = profit

Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/0f8cb879b2a5d411

How to use: The core of simple Ghostceus + simple Palkia + moldy Groudon is incedibly strong at wallbreaking through defensive pokemon. Ice scales Chansey improofs palkia and is just a great special wall in general. If possible you want to get out rocks as early as possible and make aggressive switch-ins to not allow the opponent to setup or remove hazards. Even without setup Palkia hits quite hard while Groudon breaks through Magic Bounce with toxic and beats imposter. Ghostceus can be used to clean up late game or to deal massive damage to what would otherwise counter Palkia.

Weaknesses:

1. Koraidon
2. Hazards if you let Groudon die
3. Letting imposter copy Corviknight removing their status conditions with Heal Bell

Effectiveness: Did very well on ladder so far and beat multiple high rated players.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

thought it was worth it to rewrite the FAQ thing because it is hideously outdated, quojova if you can replace the old one that'd be ideal

Balanced Hackmons: a brief primer​

• Balanced Hackmons allows for the use of any legal move, ability, and forme in the game. This allows the player to additionally use Unreleased items and Pokemon.
  • This does not include things that aren't in the game, like Mega Evolution, Z-moves, Dynamax, cut moves (like Pursuit), and cut Pokemon (like Ultra Necrozma).
• Balanced Hackmons still sticks to in-game mechanics. This means Pokemon can only have 4 moveslots, 1 ability, and 1 item, and base stats can't be modified.
• Balanced Hackmons removes the 510 EV limit, meaning 252 EVs can be used in all stats, although the 252 EV cap per stat is still present. You also don't have to use 252 EVs if you don't want to (slow pivots usually run 0 Speed, for example).
• Subject to the banlist, Pokemon can start the battle in any forme. This allows for Pokemon like Palafin-H, Meloetta-P, and Zamazenta-C to be accessed without Zero to Hero, Relic Song, and Rusted Shield, respectively.
  • This also allows Arceus formes to be accessed without the need for Multitype + Plate.
• Forme-changing abilities are hard-coded to work with the original Pokemon only, meaning they won't have any effect when used by another Pokemon. This includes abilities like Disguise and Multitype.
• Some moves, like Hyperspace Fury, can only be used by specific Pokemon (or something Transformed into it).
• Arceus formes, as stated above, can be accessed without the need for Multitype + Plate.
  • Arceus-Ghost without Multitype (holding any item, including the wrong Plate) will remain as Arceus-Ghost.
  • Arceus-Ghost with Multitype and a held Plate becomes the corresponding Arceus forme (works as normal).
  • Arceus-Ghost with Multitype and no held plate becomes Arceus-Normal.
• Items, including Species-Specific items like Light Ball and Eviolite, retain their effects after the holder Transforms. The only exceptions are Ditto's items, which are hard-coded to turn off when Ditto is Transformed.

Balanced Hackmons: a brief FAQ​

Why isn't Imposter banned?
Imposter from HP-behemoths like Chansey and Blissey give them immense bulk, especially given the former has access to Eviolite (there's a whole article about it). Imposter is necessary to keep offensive menaces in check, as Imposter simply existing dissuades the use of extremely stupid stuff due to the fact that they have to be Imposter-proofed, and Imposter also limits absurdly bulky teams with its potentially infinite longevity threatening to outlast the opposition. Imposter-proofing (or Improofing) is a catch-all term for counterplay that can be used against Imposter, and as you're in complete control of what the Imposter use can do, there are a wide array of possibilities here. Denying the Imposter user recovery, blocking its utility, out-damaging it, using specific items like Plates, trapping it, sponging its hits with a teammate, or even taking advantage of its limited 20PP are all viable options.

Why isn't Normalize banned?
Entrainment or Skill Swap + Normalize from fast Ghost-types like Dragapult and Flutter Mane can remove the option to directly damage them. Normalize users typically run either utility sets or Trapping move + Acupressure + Baton Pass. Status moves, Plate + Judgment, Revelation Dance, Ability Shield, Magic Bounce, Good as Gold, priority, and making use of the fact that they probably aren't actually doing any damage are all viable counterplay and largely remove any potential greivances with the strategy.

Why isn't Baton Pass banned?
Baton Pass has 2 main uses in BH: one is on Full Baton Pass (FullPass) teams, and the other is with Normalize AcuPass teams. FullPass teams generally aim to accrue a large amount of boosts and then Baton Pass them to a super-charged sweeper that can end the game, usually behind a Substitute so Imposter can't copy anything. These teams are completely passive and reactionary, losing as soon as one Pokemon faints, and any Haze user completely resets any progress the opponent has made (Imprison can't be Baton Passed). Tidy Up can remove any Substitutes and give Imposter users a free avenue to copy the stat boosts, auto-crit moves (like Wicked Blow) ignore any Defense boosts completely, and the teams are highly vulnerable at the start of the game when they still need to set up Ingrain and Substitute. All of the Normalize counterplay can be used for AcuPass barring paralysis (this won't stop either the booster or the recipient) and Magic Bounce (AcuPass normally uses Skill Swap, which bypasses Magic Bounce).

Where can I find more information?
The Central Resources Thread has many useful tools like Speed tiers, the Viability Rankings, and links to various other resources like the Setpedia or written articles. BH also has its own room in the Other Metagames Discord, and discussion can be had in the Other Metas room on Pokemon Showdown. You can obviously just use this thread as well.

 

[augustakira]

Meta has changed yet again, so it's time for a new sample sub.



Team Style: Double Specs Breakers - Balanced Offense

Pretty simple team concept, essentially just uses a gameplan of overloading the opposing special check with two powerful special attackers packing good tools to cripple walls in final gambit and toxic respectively.
The defensive core is pretty strange and can be annoying to pilot, but that off-meta aspect allows it to catch people who try to fish for the most common walls. (Although if it becomes a sample that advantage will at least somewhat disappear)
You shouldn't need to tera your defensive mons unless the opposing team is exceptionally agressive, in which case your offensive mons likely won't need the power boost.

Weaknesses:
Scales Chansey can be annoying for the team, however since Scales Chansey tends to negate the need for a secondary spdef, poisoning it with Iron Bundle shouldn't be too hard.
Scales Zacian isn't exactly an obstacle for the team when played well, but predicting wrong against it can really lose tons of momentum and spiral into a loss.
Magearna's Imposter-proofing is admittedly pretty weak, you should try to avoid letting Imposter in against it too often since while it won't threaten you much, it can waste tons of healing PP on Magearna or Arceus, if you manage to get Imposter poisoned against Bundle (which it will often try to switch in on given how many teams lack good bundle checks), this problem will more or less disappear.
This mon with Ice Scales is basically a death sentence if you fail to hit it with Gambit. However that set is extremely uncommon since Zamazenta really wants to be a physical check.

Options:
->
->
->
-> (Flame Orb, Pixilate, Beads) (be careful in the Koraidon matchup)
Lunar Dance -> Volt Switch / Rapid Spin -> Volt Switch / Either -> Water Stab
Rising Voltage -> Draco Meteor / Toxic / Volt Switch
Hadron Engine -> Dragon's Maw (in this case also change Rising Voltage obviously)

Tips for Playing:
Pretty simple gameplan, Identify your opponent's special checks, identify which of your breakers is best suited to cleaning (generally Iron Bundle if they have a scales fairy or if the easiest mon to get attackers in on is a Koraidon or opposing Eternatus. Otherwise it's Eternatus)
Try to set rocks up and keep them up, you have multiple solid spinblockers and using Tera on Zamazenta lets you beat most Tidy up Groudon sets. Opposing Rocks can be annoying to remove, but remember that you always have lunar dance in the back so if Eternatus needs to take a layer or two of chip you can still keep it as a wincon for later once the setter has been neutralised.
Note that lunar dance is extremely good at allowing Eternatus to win a battle against a Prankster Chansey. With Tera Dragon you have a great roll to 2HKO so Chansey will be forced into using parting shot and risking not being able to come back in, or wasting all its recovery PP, meaning restoring Eternatus with Lunar Dance will let it break through. Lunar dance can also restore a statused defensive mon if the opponent's status infliction was traded, Ghostceus and Chansey are both great recipients.
If you need to sacrifice both specs users to make progress, that's OK, so long as normal-types are eliminated, Arceus serves as a great wincon in a longer game. Don't underestimate how much damage Final Gambit will do to Chansey, It does 68.7%, which with a round of rocks chip can easily eliminate a Chansey that is tasked with holding up against all your attackers.
Magearna and Chansey can pivot in your breakers, try to avoid letting Imposter copy Magearna because it tanks your momentum and also removes your surprise tool in Gigaton Hammer which can eliminate a Chansey or Scales Zacian that thinks it's safe to heal up.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

It's survey time again! We're seeing if any urgent meta adjustments need to be made going into OMPL, so we're putting this out now so that we don't have to cause major disruption to playing weeks with potential tiering action. Here's the link. We'll probably close it after a week or maybe slightly longer, so if there's any standout factors then we have time to remove them and have the meta reasonably adjusted for Week 1 of OMPL. We'll also be voting on these sample teams soon.

also this doesn't really have anything to do with the survey but opulse / hadron are now immune to skill swap so be aware if you're running normalize stuff.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

thoughts on some stuff rn


Flutter Mane @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Astral Barrage
- Moonblast
- Pain Split

this is one of 2 mons that i think are very hard to consistently check rn. this stems from the lack of good priority users, good speed tier that ties most teams' fastest mons (korai and other flutter), and good matchup into basically every special wall. ting-lu can't really touch it (and needs to tera to actually live), dialga-o needs to be specifically revdance + flutter isn't tera ghost yet, and chansey can't really ruination without just being pain split fodder / giving free nasty plots. trying to wall this thing out probably isn't happening outside of specifically scales haze zacian, with this and pshot chansey + specs bundle being the most consistent counterplay options (bear in mind no-tera fridgeburst is only ~12.5% to OHKO after flame orb).


Slaking @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tidy Up
- Facade
- V-create / Wicked Blow
- Strength Sap

the other mental guy. this is probably harder to check on the basis that it has actual coverage options, boosts speed, and has significant bulk; the only structure that really stands up to this long-term is fc tina + fc groudon OR fc tera ghost tina, as this is almost always being paired with something that picks off fc zamac + fc ghost (like koraidon) specifically to cover for said weakness. funnily enough, wbb zamac doesn't actually work as a check (only as an improof), as tera normal facade just sorta 2HKOes + it has to deal with either sapblocking or facade having 4x more PP than the recovery option. fc gira is chosen specifically over fc arc-ghost as you have realistic odds of PP stalling wicked blow + no-sap arc-ghost notably compromises on its main draw, being a fc mon that easily sets up. there are some other niche options for checking this like fc garganacl or fc annihilape but these both have notable drawbacks, being a sketchy fc type and mid bulk respectively.


Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dragon Energy
- Water Spout
- Strength Sap

wow this meta has not been kind to palkia at all. a lot of the stuff that people are using to check flutter and bundle (like chansey and scales zacian) inherently hurt this thing's viability a good bit, and the lack of speed-boosting also stings. its not that this mon is bad per se, as the damage is beyong dumb; its just that it ceases to function with paralysis (where a lot of the good stuff rn doesn't care / is immune) and other mons offer similar utility; fm is easier to use as a fast spatk booster, hoopa-u similarly thrashes fat and can also boost speed, and both can more easily avoid being scared out by other offensive stuff.

we also have more responses than expected for the survey so i might close it and do the write-up on sunday

 

[LuciShrimp]

Hello there, my name is Luci and I am here to present a mon that I have been using quite a bit lately, with decents amount of success. It's ya boi, the one and only Rockceus.




John Tony (Arceus-Rock) @ Stone Plate
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Judgment
- Calm Mind
- Rapid Spin



The Rock typing resists both Facade and V-Create, which is a huge deal in stopping the Slaking pain train. Wicked Blow also barely scratches this thing; here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Guts Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus-Rock: 76-90 (17.1 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Atk Guts Slaking V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus-Rock: 65-77 (14.6 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Guts Slaking Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus-Rock on a critical hit: 84-99 (18.9 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO


You can just sit on Slaking, set up Calm Minds and even Rapid Spin if you're looking for a speed boost. Seriously, this thing just completely walls what I consider to be the best physical attacker in this meta. If Slaking wants to set up with Tidy Up, you can 1) counteract the boost with Sap and 2) weave in your own setup or Judgment, as even with a bit of boosting, it just cannot touch you.

Of course, Rockceus is by no means flawless. Rock is, all things considered, still a really iffy type. You are weak to common attacking types such as Fighting, Ground, Water, Grass and the less common Steel. I have decided to run Flying Tera on this set as it creates the most advantageous weakness change. Ground, Fighting, and Grass get hit with a massive damage decrease, Water and Steel less so. Offensively, Rock also is by no means top tier. There aren't a whole lot of mons in the meta that get hit super-effectively, but the spread is decent enough and nothing is immune, which is something that Ghostceus cannot say for itself. Also about a week ago I realized that Rock does *not* resist itself(I thought that it does ever since I started playing back at the release of Gold/Silver), which actually works decently in the Imp matchup. The Imp matchup is by no means entirely self-sufficient, but it is absolutely possible to play around.

Overall, I think that Rockceus is a bit of a sleeper in the current metagame and that there are good reasons to seriously consider it in case you need a hard wall for Slaking on your team.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Hi! We have survey results. We already have 20 responses and so don't see a great deal of value in leaving it open for another week. For questions that scale from 1-10, 1 is the bad end and 10 is the good end.

Q1: Are you active in BH (engaged with threads / resources, playing games)?

It seems that most respondents are still engaged with the tier. Three of the four "No" votes are from people that have played BH in a tournament at some point, however none of them quoted reasons related to BH itself.

Q2: If you are, how much are you currently enjoying BH?

This had an average score of 7.05, indicating that people are generally enjoying the tier a decent bit. It's slightly lower than last time's average of 7.29, although this set of results has fewer outliers. Forum activity, tiering action, or the relative lack of tours (OMPL hasn't started yet) are all possible reasons.

Q3: If you aren't (enjoying BH), why?
Of the results that had anything to do with BH:

• 2 mentions: Stale meta
  
• 2 mentions: Tera
• 1 mention: Inconsistent defensive options
• 1 mention: Imposter

There's not a ton of results here to go off of, but the meta being focused around Tera breakers seems to be the most common complaint in some form or another.

Q4: What do you think of building in BH?

The average score here is 6.45, indicating that building in the tier could use some work, and this is further backed by the results being widely distributed. The implication here is that there's still some degree of flexibility in building, but many structures follow similar formats and/or Pokemon centralize the builder when having to prep for them. The question doesn't detail what these threats are, but from my own observation, Toxic Groudon, Slaking, and Koraidon tend to be the primary three. This is also higher than last time's result of 6.11, indicating building flexibility has improved since then.

Q5: How balanced do you think BH is?

The average score here is 6.9, relative to last time's score of 7.41, indicating that there's still some clear stand-out factors that distort the balance of the meta. Many of these are offensive threats that often pair together to take advantage of usually-exploitable counterplay, like Chansey or Dondozo. These will be detailed in the next questions.

Q6: What do you think about Terastallization?

This question scored an average of 5.65 and is by far the most divisive question in the survey. Last survey's version of this was multiple choice rather than a scale, but even just looking at the pie chart, 88.2% weren't in favour of action (so there is a visible, significant shift in tone since then). Tera breakers are almost definitely the cause for this, as with STAB Tera on threats like Tera Ice Iron Bundle or Tera Normal Slaking, they can often be impossible to manage without "ultra-maxed" walls like Chansey or Giratina. Other Tera users like Tera Poison + Calm Mind Arceus may also be significant due to their ability to clean through teams late-game and negate common counterplay.

Q7: What do you think about fast wallbreakers (Koraidon, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle)?

The average score here is only 3.7, indicating that the majority of people think that these wallbreakers are mostly fine. Greivances with these are, from what I can tell, more likely to do with Terastallized versions of these rather than the Pokemon themselves; generally, most walls are able to withstand no-Tera versions of these fine.

Q8: What do you think about Palkia-O?

The average score here is 4.35, indicating that Palkia-O is generally fine but open to some complaints. Palkia-O's main pressures are usually in the builder, as its raw damage output means many mid-ground walls like Ice Scales Dialga-O or RegenVest Ting-Lu (Tera'd out of the Water weakness) simply don't work. However, it generally struggles in the current meta for reasons I mentioned in my last post (relevant special walls being inherently hard for it to beat, having to choose between wallbreaking and not being out-offensed), and so it doesn't see much use at all. We'll be keeping an eye on it, but the majority of its presence is builder-related, which we can't really tier around.

Q9: What do you think about Slaking?

The average score here is 4.55, indicating that people are mostly fine with Slaking but it can be open to issues. This likely stems from Tera Normal's absurd damage output on either Population Bomb or Guts Facade, which simply cannot be checked with non-resists, usually combined with an Attack boost from Coil or Tidy Up. These sets also have decent flexibility in how they conduct themselves, as Guts can choose between V-create or Wicked Blow, and Population Bomb sets can choose between Life Orb + Coil or Wide Lens + Tidy Up (with some ability flexibility, like Magic Guard / Speed Boost / Mold Breaker). However, it often struggles to instantly beat Normal resists (usually requiring multiple Wicked Blows to hit Ghosts and not being able to really beat Rocks at all), and its poor Special Defense leaves it somewhat difficult to bring in against things like Arceus and Eternatus (which it'd like to set up in front of).

All this being said, the likely things we'll be keeping an eye on are Terastallizing, Slaking, and Palkia-O. We'll keep you updated if anything happens. Thanks for reading!

 

[Geneku2]

Nooo, Slacking my precious baby, I've already lost you once, I can't lose you again!

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

Nooo, Slacking my precious baby, I've already lost you once, I can't lose you again!

I feel you fam. I've always said I was gonna bring Opporutunist Slaking to prominence in BH, can't happen if my baby is banned

 

[augustakira]

Let's talk about Slaking.

Slaking has had a pretty incredible track record in BH this generation thanks to Regigigas's removal making it the premier Normal-Type in the Tier.
It's Poison Heal set was in large part responsible for getting Rage Fist banned as quick as it was, and later got Slaking banned until Poison Heal was later also found to be broken and it was able to return to the meta.
For a while Slaking stayed pretty balanced, Zacian-C held it largely in check and so, by the time it was banned, most people had settled into the idea of Magic Guard Population Bomb being the best set for it, partially due to new toy syndrome, and partially because attempts at using Guts found it constantly stuffed by Zacian's omnipresence and Ghostceus's dominance thanks to QD ensuring it couldn't run V-Create to counter Zacian.

However more recently, Guts Slaking has made it's return in a pretty big way. Thanks to Flame orb emerging as a great check to Toxic spamming Ground-Types. The current dominant set of Facade, Wicked Blow / V Create, Tidy Up, Strength Sap was pioneered by banned user Storm Eagle and later used and abused by many top players. A few of the recent posts really show how much this set has marked the meta, with stuff like FC Arceus-Rock becoming a 100% Serious consideration when anytime a few weeks ago it would have been considered a troll post. People want Slaking to go up on the VR more or less exclusively because of this set, with Magic Guard having nearly completely fallen off.

So, is this set broken? I'd say it is. For three main reasons:
1) Brute Power (Tera)
2) Unviability of Checks
3) Synergy with other viable breakers

1) 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 408-482 (91.8 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Guts Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus: 210-247 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
I think that's enough said on Slaking's power level. It is exclusively checked by dedicated checks, a half-measure neutral FC won't be enough since sapblocking or Tera lets Slaking blast through them easily.

2) Slaking is generally checked by one of three options:
Steel + Ghost double FC core
FC Rock / FC Annihilape
Imposter Chansey

Imposter Chansey isn't a true Slaking check, since it takes a massive amount from Tera Facade and can easily be sapblocked by a competent team, meaning it no longer switches in. I'm mentioning it because since Slaking hasn't been around for long, people are still using it as a check. Tera Ghost or Tera Steel Imposter can work as a soft check on a more offensive team but isn't consistent.

Steel + Ghost cores are inherently exploitable, the Steels are Zamazenta-C and Arceus-Steel. The latter suffers from massive opp cost and difficulty improofing while the former simply isn't a good mon outside of checking slaking, since it despises not having a fairy resistance and doesn't have much offensive presence outside of cottonpress. The Ghosts are Giratina-A and Arceus-Ghost, Giratina isn't awful as some players like TTTech have made it work, but it clearly has issues with many meta threats, Arceus Ghost on the other hand is very viable, but is quite a feeble check, needing Focus Blast to actually threaten Slaking out and being stonewalled by opposing Chansey (note that Ghostceus realistically needs Strength Sap or Tera to check Slaking if it has Wicked Blow and isn't 100% safe against V Create either as +2 is a 2HKO.

Dedicated Slaking counters generally suffer from passivity, uselessness against every other meta physical breaker, and difficulty preventing Imposter from farming heals.

3) Slaking's deadliest attribue is how well it pairs with the other physical mons in the tier. Specifically Hoopa and Koraidon.

Koraidon naturally shatters the double FC core of Giratina + Zamazenta-C, as well as beating Rocks and Annihilape/Ghostceus with Tera Dragon. Generally you can easily tell on team preview which mon should Tera to break a team in half, and Koraidon's speed and power on Flip/U Turn makes defensive tera become a risky guessing game, these pivot moves also chip down Fur Coaters so that Slaking can pick up cheap OHKOS with +1 coverage or Tera Normal Facade.

Hoopa has incredible synergy with Slaking, acting as an immunity to the prankster pshot users that so often harass breakers as well as naturally destroying both Ghosts and Steels with Wicked Blow + V-Create + Coverage sets. It also acts as a terrifying wincon in its own right, meaning Slaking isn't the only threat against which your opponent needs to walk on eggshells to avoid giving a setup opportunity.

So in conclusion, I think that Slaking is currently very problematic for the meta. Banning Terastalization would be a great help in this situation, but I'm not actually sure it would fully fix the issue. A Flame Orb ban feels absurd to suggest, but given how strong Flutter Mane has also been, it could be on the table. However, personally, I'm mostly in favor of action on Slaking, be it by suspect or by qb. (Although a suspect feels like it may not be possible with OMPL around the corner)

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Terrastalize is getting kind of ridiculous. It was borderline broken for a while, but with so many strong abilities and pokemon running around in the metagame it was hard to get an accurate read of it. However, now I believe that there is enough evidence to argue the stance that it is conclusively broken.

I suppose first, we must highlight what has changed. Recently Miraidon and Orichalcum Pulse were banned from the metagame. They were banned for requiring very specific counterplay, along with being insanely strong. For example, Tera Fire, Orichalcum Pulse Calyrex-Ice had a roll to OHKO FC Arceus:

252+ Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Calyrex-Ice V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus in Sun: 405-477 (91.2 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Tera dragon Miraidon was able to OHKO Assault Vest Dialga-O:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 426-504 (105.4 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera asside, Miraidon was banned for having a REDICULOUSLY strong choice specs Rising Voltage w/ Hadron Engine:

252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus in Electric Terrain: 212-250 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

Now, lets look at the interplay between Terastalize and Eternatus, and these sets:

Etern Set

Eternatus @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Energy
- Sludge Bomb / Focus Blast / Steam Eruption / Grass Knot
- Volt Switch / Trick

Eternatus @ Life Orb
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Draco Meteor
- Nasty Plot
- Strength Sap

252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Electric Eternatus Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus in Electric Terrain: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Electric Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 337-398 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+spa Etern

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Electric Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 370-437 (91.5 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

With Terastalize, choice specs Etern is stronger than (admitedly so) non-tera Miraidon. If this is a Hadron Engine Nasty Plot Etern, its Draco Meteor and Rising Voltage would be a similar strength to Miraidon. If Hadron Engine Miraidon is broken, would this set also be broken? Is Etern broken, is Hadron Engine broken, or is Terastalize broken?

Continuing along the special side, I'd like to take a trip down memory lane. Do we all remember Choice Specs Aerilate Mega-Rayquaza. That pokemon was STRONG.

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 141-167 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This pokemon had insane damage output on a +spdef Registeel, with a resisted boombust. In gen9bh this would be even more ridiculous because recovery would only be 8 pp, so Rayquaza would be able to just stand there and spam boomburst until Registeel ran out of pp.

NOW, imagine this. It's 2018 and the 1100 elo ladder hero named Delilord who you farm every time you start a new alt insists that Deliberd is going to one day become stronger than Mega-Rayquaza. You'd think that they've gone insane. Look who's talking now though:

252 SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Tera Ice Iron Bundle Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 143-169 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's gen9bh now, and DELIBIRD is stronger than Mega-Rayquaza. Terastalize creates rediculous calcs like this on numerous choiced attackers. Case study #2, Flutter Mane:

252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Arceus: 197-232 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

Unless you have a resisted Ice Scales or Assault Vest pokemon, every pokemon on your team has a chance of getting ohkoed or 2hko'd by Flutter Mane (guaranteed with any amount of chip).

This concludes my thoughts on the special side. The physical side, I would say is a bit more "manageable", with mainly just Slaking and Koraidon being the big threats. The calcs are still rediculous though. With one layer of spikes, Koraidon has a near-garunteed chance to 2hko FC Arceus.

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dragon Koraidon Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 188-222 (42.3 - 50%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Slaking can be insane as well:

+1 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 306-362 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With a bit of chip, FC Arceus can't switch in on this mon too easily as well, however I would argue that defensively terastalizing on guts Slaking is more beneficial.

Offensive Pokemon Defensively Terastalizing:

Now, lets take a look at some other ways offensive pokemon can terastalize, such as Tera Steel specs Rayquaza. You can create scenarios where after getting a KO, the opp can bring a Koraidon in, where you then tera steel on a "safe" Glaive Rush, tank it and ohko it back. That's something the opponent has to always be aware of. Additionally, guts slacking can do a random Ghost (imo best tera type), where it can totally dodge a random Focus Blast from FC Ghostcius, and then kill it the next turn. This type of tera can create many 50 / 50s that often go unnoticed I feel like, especially in more tour plays.

Other Tera cases:

For imposter proofing strategies such as the Mortal Spin + Calm Mind Arceus sets which can tera into Steel / Poison to be poison immune and 1v1 imposter, granted imposter can also be tera steel / poison in anticipation of such sets. Defensive pokemon can also tera to get a better type match up, but as seen above, unless they have ice scales, fur coat, or assualt vest, the type advantage will be insignificant.

While there was a suspect for terastalize a while ago, I believe that the meta is 1. different enough for there to be reasonable cause to revisit it, and 2. further evidence that has been made clearer after recent bans. The fact that previously banned pokemon / abilities can be recreated in power level to me, is evidence enough on its own that terastalize is broken.

HOWEVER, I will say that tera is fun af. It's awesome being able to just live a random hit and win, or terastalizing an already broken pokemon into 2hkoing the entire opposing team. Is it competitive, nope, but it always puts a smile on my face when I'm not on the losing side :P

 

[Chessking345]

It looks like the meta is posting about problematic aspects, so I'll get on this too. Akira and Sevag explained really well already for Slaking and Tera, respectively. I will just be adding some stuff for both. Won't be discussing anything else.

Slaking:
I think Slaking is pretty unanimously agreed as the 2nd best mon in the meta right now, only under Imposter. Its sheer power, lack of viable consistent checks, role compression, surprising longevity all contribute to it being incredibly splashable. The silly thing about current Slaking is that if you compare it to Zacian-C in its prime, Zac-C had multiple extremely good sets, while Slaking is dominating with just one set. That set is as mentioned:

Slaking @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Tidy Up
- Strength Sap
- V-create / Wicked Blow / [Less good but easily useable coverage moves]

Simple yet effective, Facade sports tremendous raw strength (Guts boosted is the same strength as +1 from old Poison Heal sets) along with an enormous 32 PP, comfortably stalling out Recovery options. While the coverage move choice does show a 4MSS, with V-create being walled by Giratina formes while Wicked Blow being walled by Zamazenta-C, a team still needs to prepare for both less they want to get matchup fished. Tidy Up provides good role compression while Strength Sap provides incredible longevity when Slaking beats basically all sap blockers (Chansey and non-FCs get destroyed).

Now lets talk about the checks. A huge issue with Slaking is that its checks are super specific and are also just not good.

Slaking checks generally don't do much outside of checking Slaking, which is a problem when role compression is so important.
As Akira mentioned, Slaking checks include (all Fur Coat) Giratina formes (lose to Wicked Blow), Zamazenta-C (lose to V-create), and other mons that resist Normal while not being weak to either coverage move (Rock-types and Annihilape). As mentioned before, Giratina's typing is just not good in the meta with weaknesses to basically every other offensive mon's STABs, while Zamazenta-C's typing is almost just as useless without resistances to types like Fairy. Rock-types obviously don't offer any useful resistances outside of kind of checking Rayquaza, while Annihilape obviously doesn't do anything else. Arceus-Ghost's typing isn't bad due to loads of neutralities. Arceus-Steel is the only mon that actually can do something else, except if it wants to check Slaking then it needs Fur Coat so it can't do its superior SpD typing against mons like Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle.

Slaking checks also aren't really good at actually checking Slaking (lol).
As mentioned, a lot of these checks are insufficient by themselves, and also due to the sheer power and potentially PP of Facade, generally require Strength Sap, and due to 4MSS can't really fit a regular recovery move alongside it, leaving them prone to being sap blocked. Considering that the most common sap blocker is base Chansey, a generally decent way of pressuring base Chansey from sap blocking is to use physical moves. However, physical moves are extremely ineffective against Slaking due to its very high Def bulk and Strength Sap. Knock Off, while being effective against Chansey, is ineffective into Slaking. If opting for special moves then said check is highly susceptible to being sap blocked. Mixed attacks is also not effective, Slaking's only weakness Fighting has horrible special moves and also hits nothing, meaning STAB is necessary to force good damage, while Chansey is deceptively bulky on the physical side, making STAB physical moves ideal to pressure that, and obviously running two moves of the same type is more than suboptimal. Dual-type mons also don't work, as Giratina's Ghost-type doesn't hit either, and no other defensive check with dual type has respectable mixed offenses. The ONLY exception to this is Zamazenta-C (and Annihilape)'s Body Press.

Slaking checks are particularly susceptible to Imposter. This is not another one of Chessking's rants on Imposter. It's something that doesn't appear as immediately obvious.
While Imposter is not easy to deal with for most defensive mons, Slaking checks are notably worse against Imposter. This is because some of the best moves at pressuring/crippling Imposter are very ineffective against Slaking. The list includes Knock Off, status infliction from Nuzzle Mortal Spin Toxic etc, Spikes and Stone Axe, and even Spirit Shackle (unrelated but free Anchor Shot pls thx). This makes it very difficult to fit moves on Slaking checks that both allow it to actually function as a reasonable Slaking check while also not inviting Imposter in for free. Checks like Giratina, Zamazenta-C, and the more niche checks are also rather bulky when transformed by Imposter and difficult to force out, especially with Ghosts' immunity to trapping and Zamazenta-C's immunity to Poison. Giratina-O has a better matchup into Imposter by threatening with decent damage SE STAB moves, but it should be noted that Griseous Core boosted Modest Draco Meteor doesn't even deal half to Imposter. Ghostceus is the only one that actually has a great matchup against Imposter, but Ghostceus is far from a reliable Slaking check due to its susceptibility to Wicked Blow and sap blocking.

To top it all off, Slaking has an incredibly high number of opportunities to switch in and wreck havoc. As mentioned before, Slaking easily switches into common utility moves ran by defensive mons, while its high Def bulk and Sap makes it capable of switching into physical moves too. Its SpD bulk, while not great, does let it switch into some weaker moves like unboosted Arceus-formes and unboosted Flutter Mane. No other offensive mon since Poison Heal has this easy of a time getting in and being as resilient against punishment.

We can actually compare Slaking to the recently banned Miraidon and OriPulse. Slaking is more centralizing in defensive countermeasures, as Miraidon checks generally can multitask by checking other SpA or providing utility, while OriPulse needs Fire-resist but those mons are still effective at being a physical wall against non OriPulse physical wallbreakers and resisting V-create is always solid. Slaking has more opportunities to switch in, as those wallbreakers have to generally be slow pivoted in to avoid Knock Off and Status, and are also susceptible to hazards. Slaking also has just as effective wallbreaking power.

In terms of why Slaking didn't get more attention in the survey, I personally underestimated it when I completed the survey (I ranked it a 7, but I also didn't rank it higher because my 10 was Tera). I think in general people haven't fully adapted to the Guts set either, as I have seen a lot of Pop Bomb sets still. BTW MG sets are still ok but it should be noted that
252+ Atk Guts Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Dark: 306-361 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Slaking Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Dark: 390-470 (87.8 - 105.8%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Slaking Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Dark: 300-360 (67.5 - 81%) -- approx. 2HKO (Wide Lens)
And MGLO despite being stronger needs to be boosted for reliability and cannot really boost speed.

Tera:
Oh boy. I think I covered Tera in a prior post and the points haven't really changed. Sevag also basically covered all the absurd damage Tera boosted wallbreakers can do.

What is a noteworthy change from superpowered wallbreakers in prior generations and this generation is the nerf of Recovery.
8 PP Recovery is such as massive deal against wallbreakers, because it means that at best there's an equal pp of Recovery to the main move the wallbreaker is spamming, and more commonly it means there is less Recovery. This allows these extra hard hitting wallbreakers to just repeatedly spam the move until all PP is gone. Sevag provided the example with Specs MRay being able to just sit there and click Boomburst repeatedly into a supposed check. This in particular is a notable difference between this meta and the NDBH meta. OriPulse is more handleable in that meta because its much easier to stall out V-create PP by using Heal Order. Basically high powered wallbreakers are more of an issue in this meta, something being able to consistently deal 40+ to checks is much more dangerous now, and with Tera many wallbreakers are able to accomplish that.

Defensive Terastallization also still causes a very unhealthy amounts of 50/50. This can be on both defensive and offensive Pokemon. Sevag provided examples for offensive mons already so I'll provide a defensive mon example. Replay. This replay also happens to show the potency of Slaking.
Turn 19 Akira hard brings in Slaking on FC Waterceus, this is a pretty safe play since I revealed Toxic already and STAB Revelation Dance was not going to deal enough, while I had to keep Waterceus healthy and preserve Recovers for Koraidon.
Turn 21 Slaking deals over half to my supposed Slaking check, FC Giratina-O. Granted I am not +Def, but not even +Def Giratina-A can reliably avoid the 2HKO here.
Turn 22 and 28 are the key Tera turns here, consider the possible scenarios that could've occurred for both turns.
1. Slaking switches out, Giratina-O doesn't Tera, favourable for latter since Slaking is forced out. This is what happened Turn 22.
2. Slaking switches out, Giratina-O Teras, largely favourable for former since now Giratina-O cannot check Slaking anymore.
3. Slaking stays in, Giratina-O doesn't Tera, Slaking KOs Giratina-O.
4. Slaking stays in, Giratina-O Teras, Giratina-O KOs Slaking. This is what happened Turn 28.

In other words, this matchup that would've been completely favourable and winning for the Slaking now becomes roughly a 50/50 thats in slight favour of the Slaking. Without Tera, Akira would've comfortably won, but instead loses his 6-0 matchup mon due to getting 2 50/50s wrong.
Also please don't interpret this as "Tera is necessary without Tera Chessking would've just lost to the Slaking thus Tera good it lets team check mons". Slaking is a broken mon and so Tera being necessary to check it is just broken checking broken. Using "Tera helps check all the wallbreakers" is also false since wallbreakers are stronger in the first place due to Tera, and monotypes are not good defensively anyways. Plus we have been completely capable of checking wallbreakers through good teambuilding without requiring Tera in previous generations so its not like its not possible.
Later in that replay my Slaking was able to make a lot of progress by doing stuff like switching into Zacian and heavily pressuring Akira's team despite having a FC Annihilape, only not immediately winning due to threat of reverse-sweep from poisoned Imposter (hence the turn 81 switch out).

Conclusion: Tera should be banned, Slaking is banworthy regardless of Tera (arguably better without Tera?), GF give us something nice like a Marshadow or Dhelmise or something. See you guys in OMPL.

 

[Don Bozo]

This is gonna be a short post since I haven't played in a long time, but has anyone considered Well-Baked Body Zama-C to counter Guts Slaking? You don't even need +Spe to outspeed. Neutral Zama-C is faster than Jolly Slaking. You can always outspeed and Sap the slaking if it attacks. If it sets up its whatever, you can sap or run a fighting move.

252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 167-197 (43 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Apparently Hoopa-U is a threat now so this Zama-C also walls it. Anyways I think everyone is so hyper-focused on Fur Coat that no one is considering alternative options (Well-Baked Body).

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Strength Sap
- Body Press
- Cotton Guard
- Whatever

This is a set I came up with in 2 mins but it should be able to beat most slakings. Tera ghost let's you be immune to facade while imposterproofing. Of course you shouldn't tera if they have wicked blow to keep your Dark resistance, it's more if they already setup and you need facade immunity.

As a side note, you can also run other WBB steel or ghost types though they are slightly more vulnerable. For example, WBB Steelceus and Dialga. Steelceus is also faster but you're wasting your arceus slot. Dialga can get 2HKO with tera normal facade and it's slower. Or you can go Flash fire fluttering or ghostceus and hope they don't have wicked blow but gain a lot of tempo since they literally can't touch you.

 

[augustakira]

This is gonna be a short post since I haven't played in a long time, but has anyone considered Well-Baked Body Zama-C to counter Guts Slaking? You don't even need +Spe to outspeed. Neutral Zama-C is faster than Jolly Slaking. You can always outspeed and Sap the slaking if it attacks. If it sets up its whatever, you can sap or run a fighting move.

252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 167-197 (43 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Apparently Hoopa-U is a threat now so this Zama-C also walls it. Anyways I think everyone is so hyper-focused on Fur Coat that no one is considering alternative options (Well-Baked Body).

+1 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 274-323 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zamazenta C is forced to run sap which can be blocked by a variety of things, and simply won't hold up to Slaking with even minor chip, running +def seems extremely unrealistic given outspeeding Arceus is one of Zamazenta's big strengths so you should probably calc for +speed. Also, outside of checking Slaking this mon does nothing, so why not just run FC Garganacl which also does nothing outside of checking Slaking.

 

[Don Bozo]

Look, I'm not trying to say that Zama-C is the perfect check here, but doesn't it do a good enough job? I'm not running Zama to beat arceus or other fast 120 speed special mons like palkia, so I think +Def is absolutely justifiable. You don't outspeed koraidon either way. Also if you fear sapblock, you can also run recover. Just because counters to sap exist doesn't make sap a bad move though.

+1 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 249-294 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zama has quad rock resist and is immune to toxic so chipping it is harder than you'd think. You'd need to chip 30% which is also not a small amount. I'm sorry but I think your comparison with FC garganacl is absolutely laughable. Zama is faster than slaking, immune to toxic and rocks and has STAB Body Press to threaten slaking back. I don't know how you can consider both of them to be the same level. If the opponent havent scout the ability and click v-create, you can OHKO with +2 press.

+2 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tera Normal Slaking: 476-564 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO


Here are some calcs to prove this mon can be threatening unlike garg:

+3 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 237-279 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 110-132 (28.3 - 34%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO

On a side note here is an imposterproof spicy flutter mane set which walls non wicked blow slaking and WBB Annihilape:

Flutter Mane @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Judgment
- Torch Song

Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Cotton Guard
- Body Press
- Substitute

Anyways I think WBB zama or an offensive ghost type possess enough qualities which make them deserve some experimentation to beat guts slaking. That is all.

Another edit: I suggest running an FC steel alongside a WBB/FF Ghost so you can wall all the common slaking options. Remember the Ghost can be a setup mon and not a stupid passive wall like garganacl. FC Zama/Kingambit + FF Flutter for example.