BH Balanced Hackmons

[Tea Guzzler]

So this has become one of the best fat-killers in the meta, to the point where I think it's worth a whole post.


Groudon @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Earth Plate
Ability: Fur Coat / Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fairy / Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tidy Up
- Precipice Blades
- Toxic
- Strength Sap

(This can also be Arceus-Ground, although you probably want Fur Coat on this rather than Mold Breaker due to the lower damage output)
This set is really good right now. There is a whole one natural immunity to Ground + Poison, being Corviknight, meaning that if you aren't using that then your best option to avoid getting Toxiced to hell and back is to run FC Etern and hope they don't have any other physical attackers or are Mold Breaker. Corv itself is pretty passive since its bulk isn't great by BH standards (meaning that the thing it's supposed to be checking can force past with raw damage or coverage) and it's basically nothing more than a pivot bot that maybe sets Spikes.

The main reason why this set is good is that, if you aren't spreading Toxic, you are still a +1 Groudon and a source of entry hazard removal. Toxic-immune Fur Coat mons like Eternatus get blasted by Precipice Blades whereas basically everything risks getting Toxiced for a bulky attacking teammate like Slaking to clean up for. This can be amplified by Mold Breaker, Earth Plate, and Tera Ground, which allows +1 Blades to OHKO Neutral Arceus formes after minor chip (which is incredibly easy to rack up thanks to Ceaseless). The raw damage means even non-offensive sets can prevent Ting-Lu from farming U-turns too, which is a great asset.

Probably the biggest difficulty with this set is Imposter-proofing it thanks to how annoying Poison/Ground is to wall. Corviknight is the obvious solution, however you're using Corviknight, which (as discussed above) does have some pretty heavy shortcomings. Other options aren't really much better - Magic Guard Flying-types like Rayquaza completely nullify damage from it (same as Corviknight) but ultimately face the same restriction of being a questionable mon by itself, as you'd have to run some weird DEnergy/Brave Bird/Toxic/Sap set. The other solutions (Fur Coat or Earth Eater Poison-types) simply fold to Mold Breaker, however Fur Coat Poisons are probably the most "standard" a mon can be while checking Groudon.

For clarity, this post is about Toxic Groudon. Mortal Spin sets are better at controlling entry hazards, since they don't remove your own ones, however the lack of setup and inflicting regular poison rather than Toxic makes them easier to individually handle IMO.

TL;DR Toxic Groudon is great at breaking down most standard walls, secure walls are fringe-at-best if you don't want to use Corviknight.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

New sample team submission since GT was banned!!!
https://pokepast.es/d7a6bc490d351c9d

turned it into an RMT, check it out in my signature

 

[Geneku2]

amogus

tl;dr not a fan of most of this reasoning, banning imposter is a terrible miskate that takes the meta from questionable to outright unplayable. banning chansey instead does not solve any of the proposed issues.

As the self proclaimed #1 Imposter Chansey hater, I feel morally obligated to weigh in on this issue. I don't ever remember a time when Imposter wasn't a central aspect of the metagame and thus I can't really speak about what the metagame would be like if Imposter was banned. However, I would be very interested to see how G9BH would evolve if Imposter were to be removed and really see how much Imposter restricts/shapes the game. Personally, I don't think that offense will run rampant as there currently exist a wide array of checks and balances for sweepers if you know how to play the game right. That is, people shouldn't be solely relying on imposter as a deterrent or counter-threat but this happens too often than not.

Imposter is broken, not in a "unbeatable win condition" kind of way but rather in a "slowly wittle down your resolve by switching in a 250 base HP monster" kind of way. And yes, Mr. Guzz-Man will probably say something like "Oh, but you control the what the Imposter changes into. Its one of the few times in the game where you have total control, etc." which is true. However, BH is build all around having unstoppable forces and immovable objects. And building a set that can be countered is only damaging for the user playing that set. Worst case scenario the Imposter user decides just to not switch in on the Improofed set, but they still have 5 other Pokemon to freely use at their disposal.

This is just a jumble of random thoughts I have on this topic without any organization. Basically, I'd be interested in see what the meta looks like without imposter.

 

[zezaktest]

As the self proclaimed #1 Imposter hater

woah woah woah theres competition for this place ya know. be careful self proclaiming yourself as the #1 imposter hater. jokes aside I agree.

 

[tzaur]

Some current meta thoughts:

Orichalcum Pulse might be dumber because it's a 2x modifier to mons' already-strongest attack and the Fire-resistant Fur Coat users are a little questionable (Arc-Fire is sort of a relic, Dondozo / Giratina / Arc-Water have pretty heavy passivity and Imposter issues, and Etern only really works on double-FC structures where you can avoid getting tossed about by Koraidon and Groudon)

Haven't payed much BH9 post Tactics ban as of late due to lack of time, but I do still agree with this. However, I can see V-Create being the primary issue here. I'm in the minority of people who actually believed that Desolate Land made the move borderline in the prior gen, but three things kept me from outright wanting it gone: Ho-oh and Blacephalon being the only primary STAB users of it, the prevalence of Zygarde-Complete, and the higher viability of fire-immune Steel-types/Primordial Sea. My main issue is that this gen introduced additional tools that add multipliers to an already-high BP move with small drawbacks against the reward (the stat drops aren't much of drawbacks if the user is speed-boosted through Victory Dance or Shift Gear). Tera, the Sun, and the ability boost alone takes it from a 180 BP move to a whopping 540 BP move for mons that aren't naturally Fire-type and base 720 for those that are (which is only Fireceus for now) before even considering stat boosts and/or additional item multipliers such as Choice Band, LO, or Charcoal. Even applying just the 50% boost (sun) * a 33.33% boost (ability) to a 180 BP move without STAB is still pretty absurd to me.

Sure, Fireceus is the only STAB abuser of it, but the existence of Tera puts an asterisk on that statement; any physical attacker can convert to a STAB abuser of it with Tera around since it won't be going anywhere anytime soon. We do not have Zyg-C to stomach the VCs, so we're left with Groudon and Groundceus as our bulky Ground-types which still take 1,000,000% even with Fur Coat as well as other FC non-resists. Etern and Fireceus FC are usually fine, but they don't love having to deal with an accompanying Headlong Rush. WBB/P-Sea Steel-types not named Corviknight have the same issue which is why I honestly think they're in the gutter this gen aside from losing Anchor Shot. Even though they can neutralize the ability, they still have to worry about taking a sizable amount from an accompanying Headlong Rush since it's more common as a coverage move on physical breakers/offensive setup sweepers than Precipice Blades was on those in prior gen.

When you take Orich-Pulse out of the equation, you have Sword of Ruin and Tough Claws; when you take V-Create out of the equation, you have Flare Blitz, a move with actual repercussions, and Pyro Ball. I think the latter option would typically just lead to the exact same result as the former in almost all cases while simultaneously nerfing both TC and SoR. Blitz and Pyro are significant downgrades which I could see driving a lot of people to SoR/TC anyway; moreover, removing VC would also still indirectly nerf SoR/TC since abusers of that ability would still run VC in the event Orich-Pulse gets banned.

Not really calling for a ban this very moment as I saw GT as more problematic and believe Miraidon is currently the biggest issue, but it's something to think about. Also, there are a few things I would like to see used/explored more in response to it which include: Waterceus FC, Giratina-O FC, Palkia(-O) FC/P-Sea, WBB non-Steels. A bit of an unconventional take, so I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing.

 

[MAMP]

v-create broke pdon in xy and sm, and broke dgz in ss. might be time to try banning it?

 

[UngaTheDunga]

v-create broke pdon in xy and sm, and broke dgz in ss. might be time to try banning it?

I was trying to make some calcs to proof that V-Create isn't broken but indeed it is pretty broken

 

[Tea Guzzler]

This whole convo is basically just a massive Tera moment. We wouldn't even have to be having this conversation if Caly-I couldn't Tera Fire and OHKO Arceus, but hey at least we preserved the generation mechanic that nobody actually likes and thinks is balanced!!!!!!!

Just looking at this from a raw numbers standpoint, OPulse + Pyro Ball is the same damage as SoR + V-create (both are effective 240 BP), and nothing other than Arceus-Fire is realistically running Desolate Land just to buff V-create in the current climate - even if it's something that needs to hit Water-types (so might want Solar Blade), SoR + Flower Trick / Power Whip is just better. This is why I don't see a tremendous amount of value in trying to tier these two based on "whichever has the closest substitutes" because it'll inevitably end up circling back to the same position.

Let's just face facts here, Tera Fire is going to be a problem no matter which one we ban - OPulse + Pyro Ball and SoR + V-create still put their respective moves ahead of all other alternatives, as they effectively have the same damage output as a 120BP STAB but gain a higher boost from Tera. This argument ultimately falls down to whether you want to preserve the move or the ability, as the relative outcomes are largely the same. As far as I can tell, the only really significant difference would be Arceus-Fire - OPulse + Pyro Ball is slightly weaker than Desolate Land + V-create (240 vs 270), as Desolate Land + V-create can OHKO FC Arceus with Tera Fire and FC Slaking with Tera after 1 Spike (Pyro + OPulse does neither), and I don't know of any other mons that want Desolate Land V-create outside of the highly-fringe Desolate Land Arceus-Fairy.

TL;DR In most cases the outcome is going to be the same and Tera Fire breaks both of these, but we can't do much about that unfortunately. The argument basically falls down to which you want to preserve; V-create, or arguably better Water Bubble.

 

[Ren]

v-create broke pdon in xy and sm, and broke dgz in ss. might be time to try banning it?

i'm in the camp of v-create is definitely a broken move, but it was by no means what broke those mons in those gens lmao those would be gone gone either way. orichalcum pulse prob goes first imo

 

[Geneku2]

With all due respect, man's malding that Tera wasn't banned.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

some more thoughts on stuff:


Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Psychic / Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Psychic
- Magical Torque
- ???

hoopa-u is in a pretty awkward spot at the minute. probably the biggest issue for it is that it just doesn't have that many targets it can hit - arceus-ghost is nowhere near as prevalent as it was, a lot of teams carry double fur coat so you're unlikely to steamroll past defensive cores, and stuff you can feasibly tech past (like fc etern with sheer force psychic or dozo / arc-water with tc grass knot) is trending downward. mixed sets generally struggle to deal significant neutral damage so probably hoopa's best application is as a full-on stallkiller like the sheer force set above, where it gets ample opportunities and excels at crushing stall staples like dozo and gira.


Iron Bundle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Hydro Steam
- Volt Switch
- Electro Drift / Steam Eruption

odd mon here. lacks the raw power that many of the special breakers have but makes up for this with speed and lacking hard counters. fridge boomburst doesn't deal tremendous damage but can be hard to switch into with spikes up + tera ice, as only really chansey and scales arc can. speed tier is generally more applicable as a deterrent for the bikes rather than actually outrunning them. similar to mirai, scales chansey is the bane of this thing's existence as it doesn't have the strength to run a physical attack and break past (unless you fancy gambling with pop bomb), lack of recovery is also annoying but less damning than mirai as you don't depend on high HP for strong attacks. having to predict around imp is annoying since volt doesn't hit massively hard, edrift does about half but is mostly unnecessary outside of this.


Arceus-Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Growth
- V-create
- Electro Drift
- Synthesis

edrift is pretty cool. imposter matchup goes from dire to unplayable (but this is just an arc-fire problem, not even earth plate judge fixes this soundly) but edrift snipes the waters that solar beam does + psea corv in one slot. you still get walled by dragons but ice plate judge (bad) is the only real fix to this. improofing is annoying because you have to use fc gira or etern (both of which are kind of awkward to fit) but this is the price you have to pay for any opulse v-creater. tera ground corv can be severely problematic, so partnering this with toxic groudon is recommended so if they tera to stop arc then they lose the groudon check.


Arceus-Water/Fairy/Ground/etc @ Plate / Other Item
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Some attack, possibly judgment
- Mortal Spin
- Recover

this has been cropping up lately as a bulky late-game wincon. idea is that you win late with CM spam and outlast imposter / chansey / defensive stuff / etc by being immune to poison while yourself spreading it. this is generally fine and shoehorns certain teams into specific response patterns like ting-lu -> dragon tail, and you have the extra utility of being a mortal spin user (thus a source of removal). my main issue with the set is the reliance on tera for endgames - it creates a situation where you can be punished for using tera on a different mon, and for maximum security you need to tera early, as if this gets poisoned before it teras then it just doesn't really win. ground weakness can also be annoying so usually you need a backup check like a fc slaking or a corv.


Koraidon @ Choice Band
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Glaive Rush
- Gigaton Hammer
- Flip Turn

ultimate clicker mon, you click either blue button and either KO the whole team by yourself or set something else up to do it for you. fur coat don is the only really annoying thing as fc dozo is prone to exploitation, fc arc can take some limited thinking to play around but folds with tera + spikes. imp can't switch in safely bc glaive rush is a thing, and because SoR makes you immune to opposing SoR, you actually live imp glaive rush (provided you underspeed and don't have the glaive debuff) so have a feasible out if you're about to lose.

 

[augustakira]

Gonna make a post for two of the more interesting offensive cores I've used in a while

Meloetta

Utau (Meloetta-Pirouette) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- High Jump Kick
- Poltergeist
- Swords Dance

Kagome Kagome (Zoroark-Hisui) @ Dread Plate
Ability: Liquid Ooze
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Nasty Plot
- Jungle Healing

Starbow Break (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Strength Sap

I think Meloetta-P is massively underrated at the moment for being the only natural normal-type pop bomb user that outspeeds Arceus. It can hit some pretty insane damage with Tera and can run Mguard unlike pixilate Zac-h so it doesn't have to fear the usual bomb counterplay. At +2, Meloetta has an (albeit very low) roll to OHKO fc arceus after Tera and does 50% to Arc-Ghost and huge amounts to Rock and Steel types so nearly every pop bomb resist gets demolished, the one exception is Zoroark-H who is used here as the Improof. Zoro-h is great as a hardcounter to Ghostceus as well as able to make very gutsy reads with Ooze, Predicting sap is surprisingly easy once it's revealed so you can easily nab cheap KOs on offensive mons with proper play.

Some Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Meloetta-Pirouette Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 420-490 (94.5 - 110.3%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO
(note the same calc applies with fur coat at +2)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Meloetta-Pirouette Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Groudon: 340-420 (84.1 - 103.9%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-Pirouette High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 380-448 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-Pirouette Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus-Ghost: 216-255 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-Pirouette High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 382-452 (94.5 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Gholdengo

ReachForTheMoon (Koraidon) @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Glaive Rush
- Gigaton Hammer
- Toxic

Bernkastel (Gholdengo) @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Astral Barrage
- Make It Rain
- Strength Sap

This core is a lot less crazy compared to Meloetta, it simply pairs the best straight up wallbreaker in the tier with a solid improof that can quickly gain offensive momentum. Gholdengo will ohko every single relevant offensive mon that tries to switch in on it from +2, while Koraidon will 2hko nearly every single wall with Tera, and can do it without Tera if it has spikes support. Toxic ruins nearly anything it can't beat.

 

[Chessking345]

Now that I'm out of Open I can share my metagame thoughts.
I think that, overall, this meta has a lot yet to be explored. This does not mean that the meta is balanced, or fun to play or build for. Rather, I do think teambuilding is kind of strained, though this is more because of trying to improof stuff moreso than answering the meta threats. In particular, regarding the OPulse and Miraidon, I think both have the potential to be broke (moreso for OPulse), but we have yet to really see these elements abused. OPulse has only really been outstanding on Calyrex-I, and the vast majority of Miraidon's are Choice Specs. There have been some usage of the Nasty Plot Miraidon set, but those don't immediately scream broken.

Instead, what is centralizing in an (IMO) unhealthy way is Ceaseless Edge. Hazards are an enormous part of the meta, a lot of threats require Spikes to chip walls into 2HKO range, while Spikes also wear down the offensive threats too, in particular the DEnergy users. However, CEdge is simply too dominant and too good, it can be spammed with practically no repercussions. There have been games where we just see Pokemon click CEdge, a removal option, or a pivoting move for most of the game because its the safest way to make progress. There are even simpler interactions with mons just clicking CEdge against each other. The difference between CEdge and the similar Stone Axe is that CEdge can be repeatedly used and cause far more issues with 3 layers up than rocks up.
CEdge being removed from the meta also adds a layer to the hazard game, where you have the Stone Axe being still possible on RegenVest Pokemon and as a method to bypass Magic Bounce, while Spikes provide more consistency but are Bounceable. This also means Magic Bounce becomes more relevant in the meta.


I still stand by that this thing is problematic, though it appears that the majority disagrees. Eviolite Imposter simply has too much bulk, meaning that it forces any breaker to be capable of dealing massive damage to it, otherwise it just gets checked by Imposter while Imposter finds free opportunities to heal up. This also applies to defensive mons, with even high HP mons (meaning less relative bulk for Imposter) like Eternatus not being able to threaten Imposter that much: 252 SpA Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 254-300 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm not advocating for an Imposter ban as that would cause way too much problems with setup spiraling out of control, but personally I think a good approach to nerfing Imposter is banning Chansey, which removes Eviolite Imposter. Blissey is noticeably less bulky than Chansey so a lot of calcs turn from 2HKOs to OHKOs and 3HKOs to 2HKOs. Obviously this comes with the side effect of banning non-Imposter Chansey, so it is not perfect, but I don't really see another good approach.


I think Zacian is really really good right now. It is easily the most splashable speed control, outspeeding every threat in the meta outside of Dragapult, and the Fairy-type is incredible right now, offering a crucial Dragon Energy switch-in while giving it favourable matchups against most of the offensive meta. Ice Scales is the more splashable set I think, as it is capable of checking almost all the special attackers through its speed tier, Spirit Break, and Haze. The main issue is that it has pretty low damage output, which means it is prone to just sitting there against Strength Sap.


Koraidon lost a bit of steam after GT ban, but think its still quite threatening. SoR retains similar power esp after Tera while Moldy is surprisingly dangerous into FC mons. Still has the amazing trait of threatening common special walls with an OHKO, notably one of the few mons to threaten an OHKO on Ting-Lu.


Lumping these guys together because they are all kind of underexplored I think. They have established meta sets but I think theres a lot of flexibility still.
Similarly theres some more unviable mons that might have some cool niche sets in the meta that haven't been explored. I know Akira has been a big user of some of these mons (LandoT, MeloP) and bringing them to prominence (see: CalyI).


Misty Surge is a pretty underexplored team comp. Misty Surge is really strong into some of the top meta stuff, it limits Hadron and Miraidon heavily, softens all Dragon-type moves from the likes of Koraidon, provides a status immunity against the numerous Toxic, Mortal Spin, and Nuzzles flying around. Notably, you are in control of what you run on the team, giving you an advantage over the opponent who might be running status moves. I think that the PH ban is not even a negative for Misty, since you don't have to worry about Misty timings to try to delay Toxic Orb activation as long as possible.
Good Misty Surge setters are likely Ground-types like Arceus-Ground, Groudon, and Clodsire, as they are immune to Miraidon's Volt Switch and can basically counter it. In both teams I attempted to build around Misty Surge I used Clodsire due to its secondary Poison-typing being useful against Koraidon and generally decent Special Bulk. Main issue is finding good abusers of Misty Surge, since a lot of good breakers utilize either a Dragon-move, a status move, or are Flying-type.


- Tidy Up
- Precipice Blades
- Toxic
- Strength Sap
Tea already posted about this, and I find that it has its similarities to Palkia-O, where it can be really strong into teams lacking good checks, perform ok against soft checks, but then do literally nothing against hard counters (Chansey and double immunes for Palk-O). Corviknight completely walls this set, and many of them run CEdge or Spikes (both out PP Tidy), meaning you need a secondary removal that can deal with Corviknight, and still have to deal with the fact that every time you bring in Groudon their Corv gets a free Spike up if it doesn't miss.
That being said, against non-Corv this set seems highly threatening thanks to Ground threatening both Toxic-immune types and Magic Guard users are either not bulky enough (Slaking) or super passive (Giratina) (Comatose isn't viable and has same issue). However, there is this item that was mostly outclassed in prior generations that provides an immunity to Toxic while not occupying the ability, and is pretty splashable, for those who can't/don't want to use Corv...


Goated item, you can either run this on Ground-resists or Fur Coat mons. On the Ground-resists you get to play around with abilities like Guts. For Fur Coaters it seems weird running this to inflict self chip damage, but the immunity to Poison and Paralysis is very useful, and notably allow you to run your own Toxic to hit Imposter and other threats. Fur Coat mons that can run Flame Orb are also very splashable compared to Corviknight. Flame Orb also gives you a Knock Off absorber after it has procced, which is also super nice to have. Here are some decent users that I've seen/tried.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Glacial Lance
- Tidy Up
- Strength Sap
Akira's Lando-T set he posted in Resources thread, hard counters Groudon as Knock Off does nothing, also switches into stuff like Ting-Lu and can clear hazards with Tidy Up.

Rayquaza @ Flame Orb
Ability: Aerilate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Boomburst
- Facade
- Rapid Spin
- Strength Sap
A set I've considered (and brought and lost). Facade hits the special walls reasonably hard and has huge 32 PP to stall out recovers in the long run, and is also very easy to improof because no burn on Imp. Can also consider on Enamorus though I think it is less good.

Arceus-Whatever you need @ Flame Orb
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Whatever you need
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind / Nasty Plot
- Revelation Dance
- Toxic
- Strength Sap / Moonlight
This Arceus set can probably be added to most teams to decent success. Flame Orb prevents mainly Poison but also Paralysis from being ways to check you, and makes setup very scary to deal with. Your own Toxic cripples would-be checks like Chansey and Imposter. Revelation Dance is an ideal mono attack thanks to its good power, PP, and ability to switch types, notably very useful against either Dialga-O or Corv, as its very hard to hit both with one move. Moonlight means you don't get sap blocked but makes Imposter a bit more annoying.

Flutter Mane @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Fairy / Steel / Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Pain Split
- Moonblast
- Astral Barrage
This is the best Flutter Mane set right now, and is a very dangerous set with very specific possible answers.

How the set developed

I saw anaconja using Pain Split Mega Gardevoir in NDBH, and I thought Pain Split would be a super cool move to try in SVBH since it beats Chansey, has an whopping 32 PP, and is pretty anti-Imposter. So I sorted by Speed stat for mons faster than Arceus and looked for low HP attackers, and noticed that Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane both have very low HP. Iron Bundle was quickly dismissed because it turns out it gets OHKOed by Dialga-O's Draco Meteor :/.
Flutter Mane however has a lot of desirable traits for this role: It has low HP (crucial for Pain Split), high speed (no good speed boosting options), great STABs with notably the high PP Moonblast, and a great typing, offering an immunity to Dialga-O's Draco Meteor and a positive matchup into Ting-Lu while having no glaring weaknesses. It would be able to capitalize on some of the best special walls and also switch into Ting-Lu.
I started with a LO Pixi set since raw power was cool, but then realized that the Life Orb will likely just get Knocked, and having to run Jungle Healing for status moves means forgoing Ghost STAB. This was around when Flame Orb looked cool on stuff, so I got reminded of City's Flare Boost Eternatus and slapped Flame Orb Flare Boost on the Flutter Mane.

Flame Orb in tandem with Flare Boost gives a immunity to the crippling Poison and Paralysis, while offering a strong 1.5x power boost even after getting Knocked, which very likely will happen since this set switches into stuff like Ting-Lu reasonably well. Notably, Flare Boost Astral Barrage hits the same damage output as the Astral Barrage on the Specs Pixilate set. Astral Barrage here is to hit some annoying Fairy-resists like Corviknight, while also giving a key calc of 2HKOing Scales Arceus/OHKOing Arceus at +2. Tera Fairy makes the previous calc more consistent, and also lets +1 Moonblast OHKO Slaking, Tera Steel and Electric are untested options that make Flutter Mane resilient to revenge-kill/speed-tie attempts from Koraidon's Gigaton Hammer, Miraidon's Rising Voltage, and Iron Bundle's Boomburst.
This set is extremely good into most special defensive mons. Chansey generally cannot touch Flutter Mane, at best Hazing away boosts while getting constantly weared down by Pain Split, do pair with a strong Special Attacker that forces Chansey to stay at high health. Dialga-O needs the rare Revelation Dance to hit Flutter Mane at all, Ting-Lu is weak to Fairy, and Scales Arceus formes are generally not bulky enough and can't threaten back hard enough. Scales Zacian does generally well, as Spirit Break hits hard and it outspeeds, but it will run out of recovers.
===============================================================================================
Sample Submission: Flare Boost Flutter Mane Balance

Flutter Mane is very strong at breaking teams apart. Waterceus provides a supportive wincon, Strength Sap here is more or less fine since you can Toxic Chansey, making it just lose to Flutter Mane, and Flutter can act as a secondary Knock/Status absorber. Water is the Arc-type here to provide a Orichalcum Pulse check, Tera Ground is for Dialga-O. Groudon rounds off the dual FC core, provides hazard control, and also spreads some Toxic and another potential wincon. RegenVest Ting-Lu + Scales Zacian form a pretty resilient SpD core, with notably Ting-Lu scouting Specs Mirai and Zacian being able to then take Dragon Energies. Ting-Lu also provides lots of utility options.
Ting-Lu gets to Knock Imposter and then can be soft improofed by Groudon Waterceus or Flutter Mane. Zacian is self-improof, Chansey and Groudon can help if its Cloak or Normal/Ghost Tera Imp (not Chansey for Ghost Tera). Groudon improofed by Waterceus. Waterceus improofed by Chansey. Flutter Mane improofed by Zacian and Chansey (Zacian limits Pain Split from Imposter, Chansey is safer).
Some notable other options here are Tera types (notably Flutter Mane), item on Zacian (Ability Shield gives a much better Normalize counterplay, would recommend if expecting), item on Groudon (HDB here gives security against stuff like Koraidon spikes up) feel free to play around with those.

Some weaknesses include setup Mirai (stall out Hadron with Zacian), Speed Boost Palk-O (win before Zacian loses), Normalize Taunt (use AShield), physical breakers with Grass coverage (change Tera type on Groudon and use Imposter), opposing Scales Zac (try to win long game), stuff that RK Flutter (i.e. mainly Bundle, Pult, and -ateSpeed, can play with Tera type to try to nab a surprise kill, getting Knocked is also very good into Pult).

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Hi people! We have some tiering changes.

Orichalcum Pulse and Miraidon are banned from BH!​

	Tea Guzzler	augustakira	quojova	Chessking345	TTTech
Orichalcum Pulse	Ban	Ban	Ban	Abstain	Ban
Miraidon	Ban	Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban
Ceaseless Edge	Do Not Ban	Ban	Suspect	Ban	Suspect
Chansey	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban

Orichalcum Pulse has been controversial since day one, only really being masked by Gorilla Tactics being more of a problem. Effectively doubling V-create's power is no joke, especially combined with Tera Fire, and a free 33% Attack boost is significantly useful as well. Users of Orichalcum Pulse can hit some astonishing ranges, such as Calyrex-I OHKOing Fur Coat Arceus with Choice Band + Tera Fire, and non-Choice Band attackers like Arceus-Fire can mix up their coverage and spiral heavily if the right wall doesn't exist. Fire-resistant Fur Coat users, which are realistically the only things that can stand up to OPulse, are generally exploitable and also have to deal with a bevy of coverage options that can screw them over with prediction. We opted to ban this over V-create as it causes less collateral on non-problematic elements, plus having your next Fire option (Pyro Ball) be more inconsistent isn't fun.

This has been similarly controversial. Thanks to Hadron Engine and Rising Voltage, Miraidon is capable of ripping through almost any special wall that isn't resistant to Electric, 2HKOing even Ice Scales Arceus without Tera. This is complimented by a brutal Dragon Energy that creates perfect offensive coverage, creating a situation where players are forced to predict around it or risk losing something on the spot. All of this is in addition to its Speed and STAB Volt Switch, allowing it to dance around almost the entire tier and put mounting pressure on any non-immune checks. All of this doesn't account for Tera, which kicks Miraidon's offenses into overdrive, allowing for Dragon Energy to OHKO Ting-Lu after Spikes or Rising Voltage to exceed 60% on Chansey of all things. This has all been about Choice Specs by the way; Nasty Plot + Life Orb exists, which trades lower immediate power and self-damaging + Dragon Energy for the ability to heal and OHKO many of the less-secure checks like Ting-Lu. We believe that Miraidon creates an unhealthy amount of centralization.

Ceaseless Edge is a very interesting tool and has completely shaken up the entry hazard metagame. The ability for Spikes to go up irrespective of Magic Bounce AND for RegenVest users to set them is a drastic change from past generations, creating scenarios where any Pokemon can force progress relatively safely. That being said, it can be argued that these are overcentralizing, as it places a massive amount of pressure on the hazard war and has an unprecedented opportunity cost to not using. Ceaseless Edge can also heavily influence balance wars into games of "Who can set Spikes and cripple the opposing removal first", which tends to force bulky wincons to be reliable and severely hurts offensive teams. However, it can be argued to be a positive for the meta, as loads of Spikes flying around gives a good deal of flexibility in which wallbreakers are viable, and the hazard game may be appealing to some. I originally voted Suspect, at which point we would've began a suspect test, but after some consideration we couldn't form a clear concensus on whether it was QB worthy or suspect worthy; for this reason, I changed to Do Not Ban, so we can have some more time to gauge this.

Chansey has recieved some support for tiering action but ultimately it wasn't nearly enough. Imposter's huge bulk has never really been an issue up until now, as slashed Recovery PP, the lack of viable trapping, Poison Heal's ban, and a generally bulkier meta have both heavily benefitted it. A Chansey ban would remove the most common Imposter user, essentially axing Eviolite Imposter (as Jigglypuff's 115 HP is basically unusable), though regular Chansey being banned would certainly sting too. Imposter being problematic is a minority opinion due to its necessity in containing such a huge amount of the tier while simultaneously checking poorly-built teams, and there are a good deal of countermeasures (Plates, Tera, Knock Off, Ceaseless Edge, Toxic) which limit its effectiveness.

As I said earlier, our next action target is almost definitely Ceaseless Edge. I would highly encourage discussion on this so we can get a clearer picture of whether to suspect test it or ban it outright, as there clearly is hostility towards it but the extent isn't as clear as we'd want.

Tagging Kris to implement.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

so here's my personal thoughts on the matter:


opulse was realistically on borrowed time from the start. it's just water bubble but better because it's on the de-facto strongest option on almost every mon, oh and it also buffs all your coverage bc why not. we just had bigger things to get to before reaching this, as it always competed with gtactics but was usually slightly behind as the consistency and higher damage offered on more spammable moves usually gave gtactics the edge. as for ex-users, most choice banders can move over to sword of ruin, which still keeps some of the raw power but the gap between v-create and everything else is heavily reduced. these can no longer just wipe their way through every fur coater - they need actual support now, whether it's status or sapblocking. the one mon whose viability TANKS with this is arceus-fire; the whole reason you use that thing is comically high damage output in return for a bad time improofing it, and now you really don't have that draw (desolate land misses out on major ranges like OHKOing eternatus / fc arc / fc slaking / fc don).


hadron engine + rising voltage alone is a wild combination, hitting some dumb ranges and invalidating basically every check that doesn't resist it. compliment this with dragon STAB and you have a prediction machine that can easily take one of your mons or just hit you for far too much with volt switch and get away free. what sets it apart from other prediction machines is speed + para immunity, making it basically impossible to contest for defensive mons. nasty plot saw limited use but could bait and destroy a high amount of midground checks, some even without spikes, but IMO judgment sets were bad and sacked so much offensive potential for a not-guaranteed self-proof. if a meta has scales chansey being a legitemate acceptable option then something's severely wrong. can anything replace this? not really, all the remaining electrics lack miraidon's speed, secondary STAB, or raw power. regieleki theoretically works since you can afford to run +spa (so the the special attack is only 41 off), and it has usable physical attack to get boltbeam coverage with glance, but the power will be noticeably weaker and imposter is a massive issue.


to be honest, i don't really like this and it has good grounds for a ban. balance wars with ceaseless usually end up as repeated games of "do i hardswitch in my removal on the ceaseless, or do i think they're going to u-turn and so stay in?" and generally force linear removal options (which are almost always groudon in my experience). having one removal is a risk at best with ceaseless in the picture as if you get a bad matchup into the user then the game is ultra over (even more so than past gens), and offensive teams simply don't have a good portfolio of removal outside of some slaking sets + can't win fast enough for the spikes to not really matter. ik there's people that don't like ceaseless (me included) but i wouldn't want to cause such a drastic meta shift without at least asking people beforehand what they think / if it should be QBed or suspected, and a survey would likely take too long + wouldn't really give the amount of results we'd want.


talked loads about this already but chansey ban takes out non-imp chansey + doesn't fix imposter's core issue in this meta (longevity). banning imp is a worse alternative. still maintain that the issue does not really exist, as tera makes improofing easy if you want + offensive stuff is almost always hitting imp hard in this meta + bulky teams that imp supposedly steamrolls have a wide variety of options to punish it.

if you have time then drop your thoughts on ceaseless here, we'd appreciate it if anyone has any counterpoints / thinks it's worth suspecting

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

so here's my personal thoughts on the matter:


opulse was realistically on borrowed time from the start. it's just water bubble but better because it's on the de-facto strongest option on almost every mon, oh and it also buffs all your coverage bc why not. we just had bigger things to get to before reaching this, as it always competed with gtactics but was usually slightly behind as the consistency and higher damage offered on more spammable moves usually gave gtactics the edge. as for ex-users, most choice banders can move over to sword of ruin, which still keeps some of the raw power but the gap between v-create and everything else is heavily reduced. these can no longer just wipe their way through every fur coater - they need actual support now, whether it's status or sapblocking. the one mon whose viability TANKS with this is arceus-fire; the whole reason you use that thing is comically high damage output in return for a bad time improofing it, and now you really don't have that draw (desolate land misses out on major ranges like OHKOing eternatus / fc arc / fc slaking / fc don).


hadron engine + rising voltage alone is a wild combination, hitting some dumb ranges and invalidating basically every check that doesn't resist it. compliment this with dragon STAB and you have a prediction machine that can easily take one of your mons or just hit you for far too much with volt switch and get away free. what sets it apart from other prediction machines is speed + para immunity, making it basically impossible to contest for defensive mons. nasty plot saw limited use but could bait and destroy a high amount of midground checks, some even without spikes, but IMO judgment sets were bad and sacked so much offensive potential for a not-guaranteed self-proof. if a meta has scales chansey being a legitemate acceptable option then something's severely wrong. can anything replace this? not really, all the remaining electrics lack miraidon's speed, secondary STAB, or raw power. regieleki theoretically works since you can afford to run +spa (so the the special attack is only 41 off), and it has usable physical attack to get boltbeam coverage with glance, but the power will be noticeably weaker and imposter is a massive issue.


to be honest, i don't really like this and it has good grounds for a ban. balance wars with ceaseless usually end up as repeated games of "do i hardswitch in my removal on the ceaseless, or do i think they're going to u-turn and so stay in?" and generally force linear removal options (which are almost always groudon in my experience). having one removal is a risk at best with ceaseless in the picture as if you get a bad matchup into the user then the game is ultra over (even more so than past gens), and offensive teams simply don't have a good portfolio of removal outside of some slaking sets + can't win fast enough for the spikes to not really matter. ik there's people that don't like ceaseless (me included) but i wouldn't want to cause such a drastic meta shift without at least asking people beforehand what they think / if it should be QBed or suspected, and a survey would likely take too long + wouldn't really give the amount of results we'd want.


talked loads about this already but chansey ban takes out non-imp chansey + doesn't fix imposter's core issue in this meta (longevity). banning imp is a worse alternative. still maintain that the issue does not really exist, as tera makes improofing easy if you want + offensive stuff is almost always hitting imp hard in this meta + bulky teams that imp supposedly steamrolls have a wide variety of options to punish it.

if you have time then drop your thoughts on ceaseless here, we'd appreciate it if anyone has any counterpoints / thinks it's worth suspecting

I'd support an impostor suspect personally, since Chansey and Blissey are literally the only two viable mons that abuse it (pikachu who?) and they're still viable even without impostor. Its not Chansey and Blissey, its Impostor.

you laugh you lose challenge #1

 

[Geneku2]

Hi people! We have some tiering changes.

Orichalcum Pulse and Miraidon are banned from BH!​

	Tea Guzzler	augustakira	quojova	Chessking345	TTTech
Orichalcum Pulse	Ban	Ban	Ban	Abstain	Ban
Miraidon	Ban	Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban
Ceaseless Edge	Do Not Ban	Ban	Suspect	Ban	Suspect
Chansey	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban

As I said earlier, our next action target is almost definitely Ceaseless Edge. I would highly encourage discussion on this so we can get a clearer picture of whether to suspect test it or ban it outright, as there clearly is hostility towards it but the extent isn't as clear as we'd want.

Tagging Kris to implement.

Quick overview of my thoughts: Good, Fair, I agree with Suspect, Chansey isn't the issue its Bulk/Imposter.

A long overview of my thoughts:

Orichalum Pulse was definitely a real problem given that it also summons the power of the sun and power's up fire type moves as well. On STAB/Tera Fire types, this is what is commonly known as a "big yikes." This change will definitely bring about more Sword of Ruin users and I'd be interested in seeing that.

Miraidon shines in BH since it doesn't even need a different ability to be competitively viable. I think that's all that needs to be said.

With the introduction of Toxic Debris, Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge, the metagame has undoubtedly become a lot more hazard heavy. This, in return, mandates a hazard clearing Pokemon on every good team. Spikes will continue to exist in the form of just normal spikes, but will be unable to be used by RegenVest which is the primary driver in pushing the hazard based meta.

I'd support an impostor suspect personally, since Chansey and Blissey are literally the only two viable mons that abuse it (pikachu who?) and they're still viable even without impostor. Its not Chansey and Blissey, its Impostor.

Let me put this in monkey terms. Monkey have rock? Life okay. Monkey have stick? Life okay. Monkey figure out how to put stick and rock together? Entire ecosystem collapses and monkey expand to all region of world and build complex society resulting in extinction of countless species.

The same thing applies here. Imposter is not a problem. Chansey/Blissey is not a problem. Imposter Chansey/Blissey is a big problem as many people have complained about numerous times. This situation is quite literally a Venn Diagram. As much as I hate Imposter, running it on other Pokemon who don't have such high HP is reasonable way to check powerful threats. There is counterplay in these lower HP Pokemon since taking a hit means more HP loss. Additionally, Chansey and Blissey can be used as tanks in other ways with Prankster/Fur Coat utilizing their bulk to become both special and physical walls.

However, the problem is transferring all that HP bulk over to other Pokemon which is the main problems with Imposter. As I've stated, other Imposter user are able to take a hit much easier and don't pose as big of a threat. Additionally, Chansey/Blissey will likely run Fur Coat/Prankster which can always be checked with some physical move or Mold Breaker, given their abysmal defense. But, when you put them together, you have the perks of both without the drawbacks of either. Sure, improofing exists, but switching out to another Pokemon also exists. The high HP of Imposter users means you can effectively switch Imposters in and out without accumulating any meaningful damage. This has lead to hazards becoming one of the ways to consistently damage Imposter since it's determined by base HP percent rather than defensive stats. A name I see frequently on Imposters, "You But Better," summarizes the state of ability: every Pokemon you could have on your team, but with drastically increased HP.

The combination of Imposter/HP is similar to Comatose/Sleep Talk. Uncompetitiveness arises when both are used together.

 

[Chessking345]

I posted very brief thoughts on these in my previous post, so I'll explain a bit more in detail of why I voted the way I did.

OPulse: OPulse + V-create + Tera Fire is something I agree to be a problem in the meta. It mandates extremely bulky Fire-resists, and the fact that it theoretically can be run by everything while retaining their original STABs makes for some insane STAB coverage options. The list of more viable Fire-resists we have are Palkia-O (lol), Arceus-Fire, Eternatus, Arceus-Water, Dondozo, and the more niche but bulky Giratina. These walls were all hit super effectively by either a STAB move or a powerful coverage option. The reason I voted abstain though, is because we haven't really seen a notable abuser outside of Calyrex-I. Arceus-Fire itself is a decent user, but has some severe issues against Imposter and just lack of power outside of STAB. I've seen users like Koraidon, but those haven't really been that threatening or better than their normal SoR/Moldy sets. I feel like this was somewhat hasty.

Miraidon: Similarly, I think that Miraidon ban was also hasty. Specs Miraidon is an undeniable threat, more threatening than any current OPulse user. However, Miraidon literally has this one set. NP is a set that has seen use but is notably less threatening than Specs and tbh neither has really seen significant success in BH Open. Looking back at past BH mon bans, they all generally have multiple strong sets and can bypass their counters reasonably easily, other than some gimmick like Shed. Miraidon also generally appears more threatening on paper, because both of its STABs have common immunities. Ground-types are extremely good and splashable in general, with Groudon, Ting-Lu, and Groundceus being some of the most common mons (AV Dialga-O and Imposter also deserve special mentions as pseudo-Electric immunities with their high bulk and ability to shrug off Volt Switch). Fairy-types are also extremely good and useful outside of Miraidon. A lot of Miraidon calcs also rely on a full powered Dragon Energy, which would require keeping the omnipresent spikes off and playing extremely carefully with it, since a weakened Dragon Energy or Draco Meteor is far less threatening.

Ceaseless: See my previous post above. I will elaborate in that anyone who considers CEdge not that problematic needs to consider how free clicking CEdge really is. The "counterplay" to CEdge, outside of it missing due to its suspiciously low practical accuracy, is basically the removal options. Of which:
Defog is completely unviable.
Tidy Up, which is guaranteed to clear hazards and has some offensive threatening power, but has less PP than CEdge, even factoring in the hypothetical 10% miss.
Court Change, which is actually the best counterplay, but strongly directs the team towards a certain structure due to needing mons that can function completely fine with high amounts of hazards up (offensive mons must have longevity for example).
-ate Spin, which is also solid counterplay, but -ate Spin is rather not splashable, consuming a valuable teamslot for not that great offensive presence nor defensive presence.
Mortal Spin, which needs to deal with both Corviknight and Dialga-O as two extremely popular Steel-types that share no weaknesses.
Rapid Spin, which needs to deal with the formidable Ghostceus and the less notable spinblockers Flutter Mane and Giratina.
Notably, the remover also has to force out the CEdge user, otherwise they just click CEdge again, eventually forcing a recover. This greatly limits good removers, because either spinner needs to deal with both common CEdge users (there are a lot of them) and the respective spinblockers (not easy to scare away).
Stone Axe is a significant downgrade. One aspect of CEdge is you can spam it with low risk, because you just set up a 2nd or 3rd layer of Spikes, whereas with Stone Axe you dont get anything after the first layer. Rocks are also less good compared to Spikes due to resistances and Rocks-weak mons can and will likely run HDB.

talked loads about this already but chansey ban takes out non-imp chansey + doesn't fix imposter's core issue in this meta (longevity). banning imp is a worse alternative. still maintain that the issue does not really exist, as tera makes improofing easy if you want + offensive stuff is almost always hitting imp hard in this meta + bulky teams that imp supposedly steamrolls have a wide variety of options to punish it.

Disagree with most of this post. Banning Chansey doesn't solve Imposter's matchup into super fat teams but does help significantly for anything more offensive, and is also the most reasonable course of action to nerf Imposter.
Bulky teams that have a wide variety of options to punish it don't actually affect it sitting in front of stuff forever. Hitting Imp with Knock Off, status, whatever you want to cripple it requires you to have ways to capitalize on that, which is... offensive pressure. The problem here is if your offensive pressure doesn't actually require their Imposter to soft check, then it doesn't matter if their Imp gets knocked and crippled, as long as it can switch into your defensive mons and do its thing.
You also point out that offensive stuff is almost always hitting Imp hard, but I believe this is an effect of Imp on the meta, because stuff that cannot hit Imp hard enough are going to be unviable. A huge problem with something like Iron Bundle or Arceus-Fire is that Imp can switch in relatively free, force it out, then come in on a defensive mon to heal up. This is why we see offensive mons all be able to hit Imp with Evio for at least 35%ish.
Also using "Tera can let offensive stuff improof easy" isn't really a great argument IMO. Breakers can use surprise Tera, but if you don't actually get Imp with that surprise (Imp switched out or you Teraed before that) a lot of times you still will get forced out by threat of speed tie or Imp's own Tera (e.g. Caly-I post Tera weak to Headlong). Setup mons using Tera to dodge Poison while Poisoning back also practically requires dedicated Tera (a large commitment in itself) and the Imp not getting statused beforehand or having an anti-Poison Tera type themself, which is basically adding matchup fish with Imp Tera type (granted this is less of an Imp issue and more of a Tera issue, again).
Something that does help hold Imp back is Ceaseless... which is probably not staying, only increasing the lack of possible counterplay against Imp.
I think the lack of viable trapping and Poison Heal's impact on Imp's dominance really cannot be understated.

'd support an impostor suspect personally, since Chansey and Blissey are literally the only two viable mons that abuse it (pikachu who?) and they're still viable even without impostor. Its not Chansey and Blissey, its Impostor.

Yeah this isn't happening. Banning Imposter entirely frees up way too many issues, especially setup spam. Imagine every threat in the meta running some setup because its so free.

The same thing applies here. Imposter is not a problem. Chansey/Blissey is not a problem. Imposter Chansey/Blissey is a big problem as many people have complained about numerous times.

This is a complex ban that has serious flaws. Say you ban Imp Chansey and Imp Blissey (not that Imp Blissey might be as much of a choke anyways), then why would Imp Regidrago not be an issue? You ban Imp Regidrago and then we see Imp Cetitan unironically, what HP Imp stops being an issue and how do you define that.

Also going to echo Tea here to ask you guys to share your thoughts on Ceaseless, especially if you are on a DNB side or disagree with a QB and think a Suspect is better.

 

[Geneku2]

This is a complex ban that has serious flaws. Say you ban Imp Chansey and Imp Blissey (not that Imp Blissey might be as much of a choke anyways), then why would Imp Regidrago not be an issue? You ban Imp Regidrago and then we see Imp Cetitan unironically, what HP Imp stops being an issue and how do you define that.

I think that the main problem with Imposter is that it's incredibly powerful on high HP Pokemon. Overall, the majority of high HP Pokemon are balanced in such a way that you work around them. Ting-Lu is slow, Regidraco has low defense, Slacking has low Special Defense, Clodsire can't really do damage, etc. Using Imposter gives you the HP without any real drawbacks.

While only banning Chansey/Blissey and Imposter is by no way a perfect solution, I think it's a good starting point. Blissey being the highest HP Pokemon and Chansey having access to Eviolite make them the primary Imposter users. In terms of priority though, Chansey would definitely come first. I don't think it would be that complex of a ban if we just started with something like: No Imposter Eviolite Chansey. Again, the ComaTalk ban exists, its not that hard to put multiple && in the Showdown code and check for those conditions as well.

Figuring out exactly what base HP counts as "broken" with Imposter is going to be tricky to calculate directly. Personally, I'd say somewhere around 150 base HP is a good place.

Let me know if you have and comments or questions about something like this. I would like to try to rework this so easier to understand and decentralizes the high use rate of Imposter Chansey.

 

[quojova]

Banning the combination of Chansey/Blissey and Imposter is not acceptable from a policy perspective. Avoiding complex bans where possible is one of the most core principles behind Smogon tiering, and the specifics of the Chansey + Imposter case are not nearly enough to warrant overturning that precedent.

ComaTalk is an old ban than has been grandfathered in from past generations, and isn't something we should be looking to replicate (think of it like sleep clause in standard tiers). The ComaTalk ban could be replaced with a single ban on Comatose or Sleep Talk, but that is beside the main point here.

If an adjustment regarding imposter were to be pursued, I think the best course of action would likely be a chansey ban. Eviolite chansey is by far the best imposter user in the current meta, and banning Chansey would have the least collateral when compared to the other options: Banning Imposter entirely would make setup extremely hard to punish and banning eviolite would make all NFEs unusable. Still, there is some room for debate here regarding what single element would make the most sense to ban (again, if any action was deemed necessary at all).

 

[Inoue]

I personally don't find Imposter mons as a problem since people voted for Tera to not be banned. However, if we were to decide right now as to what should we ban then I'd go for just outright banning Imposter. Imposter is only used because high HP Pokemon such as Chansey and Blissey are present. Banning either two of those Pokemon will just result in people switching to Regidrago, which doesn't really solve the problem. It just makes Imposter less annoying, but the pressure it still exudes still remains the same.

With how things are going right now, setup sweepers are held back by Ice Scales and Fur Coat mons most of the time, and setup sweepers that are not held back by such are mostly improofed anyway, so it's not like Imposter is still checking the entire metagame as we know it off; it just serves as a hindrance for the other side of the team.

Aside from that, Prankhaze still exists, and if you really wanted to stop a mon from sweeping you can also go for Destiny Bond and/or Transform itself with your Prankster mon. With stuff like Shell Smash, Belly Drum, and Quiver Dance banned you only have a few setup sweepers to watch out for, and the meta is centralized enough for you to predict which mons might set up or not.

However, since I've fallen so far from the ladder due to me lacking brain cells to use my test account to test new teams, just take my opinion with a pinch of salt. I still believe not touching Imposter and/or Chansey and Blissey would be the best course of action nonetheless, and re-evaluate Terastalization.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Disagree with most of this post. Banning Chansey doesn't solve Imposter's matchup into super fat teams but does help significantly for anything more offensive, and is also the most reasonable course of action to nerf Imposter.

have you considered that imposter just... isn't really an issue for offensive teams? like i said, offensive teams have the benefits of using attackers that naturally hit imposter hard, and greater use of strength sap means that imp's recovery can be stifled than on bulkier teams. the whole problem here is chansey's matchup into bulkier teams, and so implementing a change that disproportionately benefits offense seems backward (especially given the change into bulky teams is largely insignificant unless fsr the fat team has 0 knock).

Bulky teams that have a wide variety of options to punish it don't actually affect it sitting in front of stuff forever. Hitting Imp with Knock Off, status, whatever you want to cripple it requires you to have ways to capitalize on that, which is... offensive pressure. The problem here is if your offensive pressure doesn't actually require their Imposter to soft check, then it doesn't matter if their Imp gets knocked and crippled, as long as it can switch into your defensive mons and do its thing.

you say this like bulky teams are just 6 do-nothing bulky mons, or that defensive mons are somehow incapable of harming the opponent, both of which are just objectively false. imp deciding to just sit in with defensive mons is a golden opportunity to just go to something else and take advantage of the window they've given you by trying to be immortal rather than useful. imp sitting in front of defensive mons also isn't terrible as these should be designed with supporting your breaker or being a wincon in mind (if not, you have bad defensive mons), and so even if imp is deciding to sit in and do fuck all, you aren't forced to do the same.

You also point out that offensive stuff is almost always hitting Imp hard, but I believe this is an effect of Imp on the meta, because stuff that cannot hit Imp hard enough are going to be unviable. A huge problem with something like Iron Bundle or Arceus-Fire is that Imp can switch in relatively free, force it out, then come in on a defensive mon to heal up. This is why we see offensive mons all be able to hit Imp with Evio for at least 35%ish.

do you have any other examples? arc-fire is the obvious one here because the tradeoff is the reason why the set exists in the first place - high damage in return for a poor imp matchup - and so really is just not valid for the argument here. bundle also smashes imp for half with specs drift and it physically cannot heal on this, so the argument here also falls apart. even just sorting by atk/spa and simply looking at what the mons'd run, this argument holds about as much water as a sieve:

from this list, the only things (that you would actually consider using offensively on the average team) that can't hit imposter for meaningful damage are arc-fire (we've been over this), mewtwo (bad even before considering imp), annnd... nothing else. you can see why i think this argument is fake; you have one single mon that backs your claim. it just happens that the majority of the stuff with high BST can hit imp reasonably hard.

Also using "Tera can let offensive stuff improof easy" isn't really a great argument IMO. Breakers can use surprise Tera, but if you don't actually get Imp with that surprise (Imp switched out or you Teraed before that) a lot of times you still will get forced out by threat of speed tie or Imp's own Tera (e.g. Caly-I post Tera weak to Headlong). Setup mons using Tera to dodge Poison while Poisoning back also practically requires dedicated Tera (a large commitment in itself) and the Imp not getting statused beforehand or having an anti-Poison Tera type themself, which is basically adding matchup fish with Imp Tera type (granted this is less of an Imp issue and more of a Tera issue, again).

surprise tera was never really the intention here, tera just as a general damage amp that naturally nullifies imp is generally more applicable and useful. stuff like tera normal slaking and tera dragon koraidon steams through imp with basically no effort, though if you want to gambit with immunities on something like palk-o then it is an option. well-built teams with setup last wincons are going to be built with imp in mind (so they aren't just going to fodder away their wincon for 0 reason) and are also going to pack less commital wincons. these are all suggestions that harm imposter but are in no way meant to be relied on, hence "if you want" being used.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Threat Assessment - V2
​

I did one of these a while ago, back in Zacian-C meta, and thought it might be useful to do another one. This is basically a congregation of the meta offensive mons, the sets they run, and how to counter them. Here's the setpedia if you don't know the sets.
Note: If you see , rather than + a specific Plate, all relevant Arceus formes (that aren't weak to the mon in question) can do this job.

Sword of Ruin, Mold Breaker

These 2 run basically the same set - Choice Band, Close Combat, Glaive Rush, Gigaton Hammer, Flip Turn / Toxic, and Tera Dragon.

Hardest Counters: (Fur Coat)
Soft Checks: (Fur Coat) (Prankster) (Pixilate + Extreme Speed) (Anything)


Hardest Counters: (Prankster)

(Fur Coat + Ability Shield)
Soft Checks: (Anything) (Pixilate + Extreme Speed) (Anything)

Koraidon's strong because Tera Dragon + Glaive Rush can pick off weaker Fur Coat users given Spikes chip, with Gigaton Hammer to scare off Fairy-types. For SoR, Fur Coat Dondozo, Groudon, and Arceus can stave it off (Dondozo in particular should never die to direct damage), with complications only really arising with multiple layers of Spikes or Strength Sap blocking being a factor. For Mold Breaker, most of these fold to Tera Dragon + Glaive Rush, so recover-stalling its much superior Dragon STAB is recommended with something like Prankster Dondozo. Arceus-Fairy can scare it out with ESpeed, Flutter Mane can get free entry if Koraidon's locked into either of its STABs (or, more recently, Toxic), and Iron Bundle outspeeds and threatens to OHKO.

Magic Guard, Guts

ALL SETS:

Hardest Counters:

(Anything) (Fur Coat) (Fur Coat; MUST HAVE SAP) (Eviolite Imposter)

Soft Checks: (Fur Coat; MUST HAVE SAP)

Hardest Counters:

(Anything) (Entrainment) (Well-Baked Body)
Soft Checks: (Fur Coat) (Fur Coat; MUST HAVE SAP)

IMO Guts Slaking is significantly scarier than any Population Bomb set right now. The inability to shut it down with Burn, absence of care for Knock Off, ability to consistently boost Speed, and higher instant damage to smash stuff unboosted make it harder to consistently counter and stop from sweeping. Ghost-types are about as secure a check as you can get as they can only be hit with coverage / Toxic, though are by no means indomitable. Magic Guard not boosting Speed means that you can semi-reliably spam Sap and be safe, though Coil has more PP so this is only temporary. If you can switch a user in safely, Entrainment turns off Guts and makes it slightly more manageable, although Prankster stuff still takes an absurd amount of damage through burn. Zama-C is under-explored, does basically the same job as the Ghosts but trades Toxic immunity / Wicked Blow resistance for V-create weakness.

Fur Coat, Simple

ALL SETS:
This mon is useless outside of Arceus-Ghost, but it's immune to all damage from both sets.


Hardest Counters: (Non-Imposter) (Ice Scales) (Choice Band) (Anything) (Anything)

(Toxic)
Soft Checks: (RegenVest)

Separating these paragraphs because the sets play completely differently. Fur Coat aims to be a bulky booster that can spiral late-game when it can actually break through harder checks, Focus Blast willing. Ghost lacks resistances, so Choice Band stuff like Koraidon can heavily dent it and potentially just mash through it with Spikes, and Hoopa-U is just an L matchup as Arceus-Ghost is almost always Tera Ghost. The defensive things here can all nullify its damage output, annoy it with status, and (in Chansey and Meloetta's case) limit the amount it can heal with Strength Sap. Chansey is by far the hardest counter, Triple Arrows variants do exist but crippling with Status only takes one non-Flinch + Slaking and Ting-Lu farm it forever.


Hardest Counters: (Non-Imposter; Tera Poison / Tera Fairy) (Fur Coat) (Parting Shot) (Anything)
Soft Checks: Any non-Chansey special wall not weak to Fighting

Simple excels at cleaning up weakened teams and forcing early Tera if you lack one of the specific counters / can't safely position your Parting Shot users to limit it. Tera Chansey is basically immune to damage and walls Arceus-Ghost forever, as do Meloetta and Fur Coat Slaking, and all three benefit from not being excessively weak to Triple Arrows flinch chains (which is why I use Collision Course more often). Other special walls can work, but many will need to Tera to not lose to Collision Course, and Judgment still does a ton even through Ice Scales / Assault Vest (Jungle Healing Arceus-Ghost 1v1s Calm Mind + Sap Ice Scales Arceus).

Simple, Mold Breaker, Speed Boost

ALL SETS: (Non-Imposter) (Desolate Land)
These are basically immune to all damage from all sets (which can't deviate from Nasty Plot / Dragon Energy / Water STAB / Sap).


Hardest Counters: (Ice Scales) All-Set Counters
Soft Checks: (Ice Scales) (Pixilate + Extreme Speed) Anything Faster


Hardest Counters: (Ice Scales) All-Set Counters
Soft Checks: (Pixilate + Extreme Speed)

Palkia-O is unique in that it can win the game basically instantly if you don't have a hard counter but does virtually nothing if you do have one. Speed Boost is near impossible to contest offensively, but the reduced damage output means that stuff which can only soft-check Simple and Mold Breaker (like Dialga-O) can beat Speed Boost in most cases. Simple and Mold Breaker run over half-checks (this depends on its Tera Type, though this probably isn't something you want to gamble with), but can be chased out by faster stuff. Non-Imposter Chansey is by far the easiest of the unbreakable walls to fit, though if you end up using Desolate Land Fairy-types for some other purpose, then Palkia-O should never be a problem.

Pixilate + V-create, Pixilate + Headlong Rush

ALL SETS: (Ice Scales) (Fur Coat) (Knock Off)
Fur Coat Arceus-Poison and -Fire are never at risk of death, as they resist Boomburst and can easily withstand either physical attack. Ice Scales Arceus is largely the same, but they can take undesirable amounts from Tera Fire V-create. Enamorus loathes losing its Life Orb, making it basically incapable of breaking anything it doesn't hit super effectively.


Hardest Counters: (Non-Fur Coat) All-Set Counters
Soft Checks: (Eviolite Imposter) (Ice Scales)


Hardest Counters: (Non-Imposter) All-Set Counters
Soft Checks: (Imposter) (Ice Scales) (Anything)

The counterplay has some pretty wide differences between the physical attacking option. Notably, Headlong Rush is better at removing Dialga-O and other slow special walls, whereas V-create is better into basically everything else. V-create, especially with Tera Fire, nukes basically every special wall and out-damages things like Chansey and Dialga-O, on top of resisting Imposter's Boomburst, though in doing so becomes Fire-type; you can take advantage of this with things like Arceus-Ground (which actually forces it out) and Spikes (which it's now vulnerable to). Headlong Rush generally has more soft-checks thanks to the lower BP, only matching V-create's power after Tera Ground. Note that Burn can help with limiting its damage, but it conflicts with Paralysis, doesn't change Boomburst's damage, and Tera Fire blocks it.

Refrigerate

Hardest Counters: (Non-Imposter) (Ice Scales)
Soft Checks: (Eviolite Imposter) (Ice Scales) (Anything)

Iron Bundle's damage is relatively lacklustre compared to other special attackers, as it relies on Spikes to hit most 2HKO ranges even with Tera Ice. Ice Scales Arceus lives most Spikes ranges and Chansey is immortal as always. Dialga-O generally works but can fold to Spikes + Tera, Zacian outspeeds and threatens to Spirit Break but doesn't enjoy Bundle + Sap blocker (or just any Bundle played as a Hit-and-Run breaker), Eviolite Imposter devours Boomburst and Steam Eruption but takes about half from Specs EDrift, and Arceus-Water can beat it if it isn't weakened from physical attackers (note that Arceus-Fire can do this too if Desolate Land).

Choice Specs, Flare Boost

ALL SETS: (Non-Imposter)


Hardest Counters: (Non-Imposter) (Ice Scales) (Knock Off)
Soft Checks: (Ice Scales) (RegenVest) (Anything)

Choice Specs plays a heavy Hit-and-Run game with either Hadron Engine or Pixilate. Its damage output is similar to Iron Bundle, so the same Spikes ranges largely apply, although it has slightly higher Special Attack, so Zacian and Dialga-O are less safe. RegenVest Dialga-O doesn't tank hits well but can come in and scout what Flutter Mane locks into. Iron Bundle also outspeeds this and can force it out; other base 135 mons (Koraidon and Flutter Mane) can scare it out with the prospect of a Speed tie, but they should not be considered consistent.


Hardest Counters: (Non-Imposter) (Ice Scales)
Soft Checks: (Ice Scales + Revelation Dance) (Ice Scales + Calm Mind) (Imposter) (Anything)

Flare Boost has equivalent damage to Simple after it uses Nasty Plot, making almost all lesser checks invalid. Zacian can usually brawl with it thanks to Spirit Break and its poor Defense, and its low HP limits the amount of healing Flutter Mane gets through Pain Split. Dialga-O can live +2 Tera Ghost Astral Barrage comfortably (does 75 max) and threaten it back with Draco or RevDance (though neither kill), and Arceus can Calm Mind if Flutter Mane hasn't set up beforehand. This set is vulnerable to Imposter, which eats +2 Astral and can OHKO back with +0 after slight chip. Outspeeding and threatening it works the same as Choice Specs.

Tough Claws, Sheer Force

ALL SETS: (Fur Coat, not Ghost) (Fur Coat) (U-turn)
Arceus formes that aren't Ghost (or Poison for the Sheer Force set) can almost always withstand Hoopa-U so long as they switch in on the Shift Gear. Slaking is basically impossible to kill for Tough Claws and eats everything except Psychic from Sheer Force. A 4x Bug weakness, low Defense, and propensity to run Lonely means that any non-0 Attack U-turn shatters its HP supply.


Hardest Counters: (Fur Coat) (Fur Coat, Tera Poison)

All-Set Counters
Soft Checks: (Eviolite Imposter) (Anything with U-turn) (Pixilate + Extreme Speed)

Tough Claws mandates a Fur Coat user to check, and you need to have the right one to do so, but otherwise it struggles getting past stuff it doesn't automatically beat with coverage. Fur Coat Eternatus and FC + Tera Poison Dondozo are never at risk of death, as even though they don't resist Wicked Blow, they can heal enough for Hoopa-U to KO itself with Life Orb. Eviolite Imposter can scare it out but +1 Wicked Blow OHKOes if the Imposter user lacks Eviolite. Ting-Lu can live any one hit (except Tera Fire V-create) and U-turn for likely-lethal damage. Arceus-Fairy chases it out with Extreme Speed but also fails into Tera Fire.


Hardest Counters: (Anything) (Anything) All-Set Counters
Soft Checks: (Eviolite Imposter) (RegenVest) (Fur Coat)
If you're using Stall:

Sheer Force mostly excels at beating Tough Claws counterplay rather than being a major offensive threat in and of itself. No Tough Claws means that it relies on Tera Dark to OHKO non-Fur Coat Arceus with Wicked Blow, and no V-create means Fairy-types are basically unbreakable. Ting-Lu doesn't take Axe Kick well but can switch in, scout, and fish for misses in a pinch. Slaking can eat Axe Kick and Psychic if it's healthy and can force Hoopa-U out with Body Slam. Eviolite Imposter can firm a hit ot two and scare Hoopa-U out, though needs to be mindful of Axe Kick misses and might not get any recovery.

Setup + Toxic

Hardest Counters: (Anything) (Anything that doesn't mind / is immune to Precipice Blades) (Magic Guard or Guts)

Soft Checks: (Fur Coat)

Toxic Groudon aims to chip away at Fur Coat users with Toxic, giving it a window to spiral late-game with Tidy Up or Victory Dance. Precipice Blades also naturally smashes Toxic immunities like Eternatus and Arceus-Poison. As such, the most secure counterplay is to be immune to Toxic and not weak to Precipice Blades, which is where Corviknight and Flame Orb + Not weak to Ground come in. Magic Guard and Guts have the bulk to eat Precipice Blades and can't take Toxic damage, always packing Strength Sap to heal off anything they take (and both can 1v1 even Fur Coat Groudon). All of the other Fur Coat users can stave it off in the short term but are vulnerable to Toxic. Burned Groudon becomes basically incapable of threatening regular Toxic immunities like Eternatus and Arceus-Poison.

Desolate Land

Hardest Counters: (Eviolite Imposter) (Fur Coat or Prankster) (Fur Coat) (Primordial Sea)
Soft Checks: (Fur Coat)

Arceus-Fire's viability has tanked with the Orichalcum Pulse ban, as with Desolate Land, it misses many key ranges like OHKOing Fur Coat Slaking, Groudon, and Arceus. It can still catch unprepared teams, but it has severe issues with coverage; all of its "checks" can theoretically be broken past with the right coverage (Solar Beam, Earth Plate Judgment, Electro Drift) but it can only use one of these. Regardless of its choice, Eviolite Imposter stonewalls it and is only slightly threatened if it's Paralyzed + Arceus-Fire is Earth Plate. Giratina is almost never threatened so long as it can remove the boosts, Eternatus only loses to Earth Plate, and the Primordial Sea users only lose to EDrift (which Tera Ground removes). Slaking and Arceus can live even a +2 Tera Fire V-create and threaten back with status or damage.

Might have missed a few, but these are generally the most relevant and most splashable options.

 

[Chessking345]

Hi with BH Open completed I have compiled the usage stats for every game played with the Zacian-C (+QD) bans in place. There was a GT ban in between but I don't think it affected the meta too significantly. Obviously these stats are not going to be very relevant seeing we have some pretty major meta changes recently, but whatever :)

BH Open Usage

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| -    | Arceus-*           |   96 |  87.27% |  53.12% |
| 1    | Chansey            |   60 |  54.55% |  46.67% |
| 2    | Groudon            |   53 |  48.18% |  54.72% |
| 3    | Ting-Lu            |   44 |  40.00% |  59.09% |
| -    | Imposter Chansey   |   42 |  38.18% |  50.00% |*
| 4    | Eternatus          |   35 |  31.82% |  42.86% |
| 5    | Dondozo            |   34 |  30.91% |  47.06% |
| 5    | Slaking            |   34 |  30.91% |  44.12% |
| 7    | Dialga-Origin      |   33 |  30.00% |  51.52% |
| 8    | Zacian-*           |   31 |  28.18% |  61.29% |
| 9    | Miraidon           |   30 |  27.27% |  60.00% |
| 10   | Corviknight        |   29 |  26.36% |  48.28% |
| 11   | Arceus-Ghost       |   27 |  24.55% |  48.15% |
| 11   | Koraidon           |   27 |  24.55% |  37.04% |
| 13   | Arceus-Fairy       |   24 |  21.82% |  58.33% |
| 14   | Enamorus           |   23 |  20.91% |  43.48% |
| -    | Non-Imp Chansey    |   16 |  14.55% |  31.25% |*
| 15   | Arceus-Water       |   15 |  13.64% |  60.00% |
| 16   | Calyrex-Ice        |   13 |  11.82% |  53.85% |
| 17   | Blissey            |   12 |  10.91% |  58.33% |
| 18   | Arceus-Fire        |   11 |  10.00% |  18.18% |
| 19   | Giratina           |   10 |   9.09% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Palkia-Origin      |   10 |   9.09% |  40.00% |
| 21   | Ursaluna           |    9 |   8.18% |  22.22% |
| 22   | Iron Bundle        |    8 |   7.27% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Rayquaza           |    7 |   6.36% |  57.14% |
| 23   | Dragapult          |    7 |   6.36% |  42.86% |
| 23   | Hoopa-Unbound      |    7 |   6.36% |  14.29% |
| 23   | Palafin-Hero       |    7 |   6.36% |  14.29% |
| 27   | Arceus-Ground      |    6 |   5.45% |  66.67% |
| 27   | Arceus-Grass       |    6 |   5.45% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Zamazenta-Crowned  |    6 |   5.45% |  50.00% |
| -    | Imposter Blissey   |    5 |   4.55% |  60.00% |*
| -    | Non-Imp Blissey    |    5 |   4.55% |  60.00% |*
| 30   | Moltres            |    5 |   4.55% |  40.00% |
| 31   | Flutter Mane       |    4 |   3.64% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Arceus-Poison      |    4 |   3.64% |  75.00% |
| 31   | Clodsire           |    4 |   3.64% |  50.00% |
| 34   | Giratina-Origin    |    3 |   2.73% |  33.33% |
| 35   | Goodra-Hisui       |    2 |   1.82% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Heatran            |    2 |   1.82% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Kyogre             |    2 |   1.82% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Mewtwo             |    2 |   1.82% |  50.00% |
| 39   | Dialga             |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Landorus-Therian   |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Iron Valiant       |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Coalossal          |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Regieleki          |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Gholdengo          |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Brute Bonnet       |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Magearna           |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Pikachu            |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Mimikyu            |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Toxapex            |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
* Chansey ability was not revealed in 2 games (2-0), Blissey ability was not revealed in 2 games (1-1)

https://pokepast.es/3427ed6931248afd is the list of replays for anyone who wants to check out some other stats themselves.
Also attached in this post is an estimate of post Zac-C bans 1630 usage rate on ladder (not a virus, I can share in BH channel on discord if needed). I estimated using February usage rates and assuming that Zacian-C received 0 usage post ban (untrue but better than arbitrary). I will probably not be doing this for April post Mirai/Opulse bans because it would be quite silly to estimate using estimated stats.

Some comments about usage rates (will use + winrate to refer as >50%):
- It is unsurprising that Arceus-Any is the most used mon. It is surprising that Arceus-Any did not receive 100% usage. It is unsurprising that Arceus-Any then has a + winrate as not using an Arceus is likely a detriment to the team.
- Chansey easily takes the most used single mon, with Imposter having a perfect 50% winrate with just below Ting-Lu usage, while non-Imposter Chansey seems a moderate 16 uses with a rather low winrate.
- Groudon sees the next most usage mostly as a splashable physical wall providing decent source of hazard control and offensive pressure.
- Ting-Lu usage is unsurprising, as it provides immense amounts of annoying utility and blanket checking/scouting. This mon is omnipresent in later rounds with the exception of PandaDoux.
- Eternatus usage is surprisingly high, while Miraidon usage is surprisingly low for such a powerful mon.
- Dialga-O seemingly had most of its usage be in the RegenVest set rather than the Ice Scales set, and the Ice Scales set also saw very low winrate (?).

- Some notable + winrate mons include Zacian (I think there was 1 Crowned usage), Miraidon, Arceus-Water, Giratina, Arceus-Ground, and Flutter Mane.
- Some notable - winrate mons include Koraidon, Non-Imp Chansey, and the horribly low Arceus-Fire, Ursaluna, Hoopa-U, and Palafin.
- Zacian has seen success in a supportive role by providing great speed control, a Fairy-type, and either a physical or special check depending on the team's needs.
- Giratina winrate is likely correlated to TTTech's success.
- Flutter Mane is the most used mon with a 100% winrate.
- Koraidon winrate can probably be due to people replacing Zac-C on illegal sample teams with it, considering that actual teams built around it have seen good success.
- I have no explanation to Non-Imp Chansey if people want to go do some research feel free to do so.
- Arceus-Fire and Hoopa-U are both present on an extremely outdated Tea Guzzler sample team that people attempted to modify to make it legal.
- Arceus-Fire is also a rather inconsistent offensive mon, generally being outclassed by mons that have more offensive potential and are less susceptible to Imposter.
- Hoopa-U saw some use in later rounds but has notable inconsistent issues, especially against walls like Ice Scales Fairy-types.
- Ursaluna appeared to also have inconsistency, as it has slow speed, lack of defensive potential, and issues with popular walls like Arceus-Ghost.
- Palafin saw quite a bit of use on some questionable teams.

 

[Geneku2]

- I have no explanation to Non-Imp Chansey if people want to go do some research feel free to do so.

Hello, non-Imposter Chansey user here. There's not many of us because imposter but I'll do my best to summarize non-imposter sets.

1. Fur Coat Eviolite - This is what I mainly play non-Imposter Chansey with. It combines Chansey's godlike HP and Special Defense with all the perks that come from Eviolite and Fur Coat. After calculations, we have a Special and Physical Tank with 704 HP, 357 Defense and 463 Special Defense. In addition, most Normal types popular in the meta have a relatively high base Defense but a low base Special Defense. This means that Fighting type move (mostly physical) are often not worth special moves. That is, its easier to threaten a normal type with special moves than is is with Physical fighting moves. Chansey is a contradiction to this due to its high base Special Defense. The typical counter's for normal types won't work due to the sheer special bulk. Additionally, due to the lack of fighting type physical move (for reasons above), this means that Chansey takes neutral damage from most popular physical moves. Fur Coat Eviolite Chansey is a phenomenal tank that can be used to suprise unexpecting opponents. Personally, I use it as stall and Wish spam, utilizing its high HP to keep allies healthy.
2. Setup Prankster - This is another set that utilizes Chansey's high HP and Special Defense. With Prankster and Cotton Guard, raising Chansey's Defense to over Fur Coat levels is extremely easy. Prankster Chansey has options for sets as well. Leftovers, Substitute, Calm Mind, Baton Pass grants passive healing and the ability to set up a substitute that's guaranteed to last a few turns. Meanwhile, Eviolite, Recover/Wish, Baton Pass is a good lead for Special sweepers, giving them immensely increased stats, while also functioning as a healer. Even if not used to setup another Pokemon, Prankster Chansey is a constant thorn that's difficult to get rid of. It can stall out many high base damage moves that would threaten it otherwise thanks to Fur Coat giving it a significant Defense boost. Extreme Speed is not enough to be a threat and Unaware is no popular enough to run. The lack of these important checks gives Prankster Chansey the opportunity to thrive.
3. Regenerator Eviolite - Yet another set that takes advantage of Chansey's high HP to automatically heal a large portion of it's HP without needing to manually heal. A combination of Parting Shot, Spikes and Mortal/Rapid Spin gives it many opportunities to be utilized. Although not my favorite, Regenerator Eviolite Chansey is effective on the right teams. It has the perks of RegenVest sets but with boosted HP and without the constraint of only attacking moves. Regenerator Chansey is a rare find that uses its high HP to make setting up hazards a one sided match.

In conclusion, even though Imposter Chansey is meta defining, there are interesting sets that exist beyond its confines.