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Alright, I think you and I just have different ways of looking at how to use these magic guard sets. You seem to want to utilise magic guard as means of setting up. This is definitely not a bad idea by any means. Magic Guard lets yiu ignore hazards, Toxic and salt cure which forces your opponent to actually attack you. For me, clicking setup moves on a MG mon is a waste. This is because you're not taking advantage of the recoil immunity the ability provides. By clicking double edge instead of victory dance on slaking, I'm essentially "gaining" 15-25% of my hp with magic guard because I ignore the recoil from the move AND Life Orb. To me, clicking a setup move is an opportunity cost because I'm not attacking on that turn. Another point I haven't brought up is imposter. If you run sap/vd + 2 attacks, you will be perma walled and pp stalled by an imposter. All they have to do is spam Strength Sap and switch to another mon once in a while. I personally don't like running vd without sub because of this, and I definitely don't like sub on a magic guard mon because you're already immune to salt cure and toxic. You mention that these mons are not "threatening" to faster mons which I think is a different way of thinking than me. Say I have slaking out vs a pivot like giratina or dondozo. The gira is support and can't touch the slaking apart from strength sap/haze. You think it's better to click VD because then the opponent can't outspeed with palk/miraidon right? But in reality I think they'll just uturn to whatever and go back to the gira and stall you out. If they have imposter chans it's even easier. Meanwhile if you have Ceaseless Edge, Knock or Dragon Energy you can just smack the gira and switch out when they uturn into the palk. My opinion is that by setting up instead of attacking, you're wasting your magic guard. If you still think setup is better then by all means go ahead. I just think it's too weak vs haze/sap/imposter and would rather attack and switch out against offensive mons. If yiu have hazards, you'll eventually reach a point where your mg mon can kill the palk/don and they can't kill your mon because it's hard to chip magic guard with sap.
Honestly with the Flare Blitz point I haven't tried v create so I'm not gonna argue more. In theory yiu say the drops don't matter but I'm sceptical. I don't like the idea that offensive mons which couldn't ohko you suddenly being able to. With Zac gone, I think you don't even need a fire move anyways as you say.
I would like to announce that I will be stepping down as BH Tier Leader, and as a BH council member. It has been a privilege to have lead the metagame from the end of gen8 through the first 6 months of gen9. quojova will be your new Tier Leader!! He is more than fit to lead this metagame, as his dedication to gen8bh and gen9bh has been undoubtedly demonstrated throughout the past year, and his mastery and understanding of the metagame are apparent.
Thank you everyone being incredible contributors to the bh metagame, and friends. Take care :)
For the point on setup not taking advantage of MGuard, i'm going to have to disagree. Recoil-inducing moves are generally rare on Magic Guard users (the only meta-relevant one is Slaking who uses Population Bomb instead of double edge), but even then, it's basically paid for itself after 1 attack. What you're trying to do here is force value out of Magic Guard, which isn't necessarily getting the most out of your mon - you're running otherwise-suboptimal strats just to extract MG value, when the alternative is still benefitting from MG (but it having less of a complete impact on the set) and having an overall better mon. Having setup also basically means nothing for being Imposter fodder as, aside from specifically Rayquaza (who viably uses a move that hits itself super effective), you're never going to be able to feasibly KO Imposter users anyway - they also get to turn your utility against you basically for free since you can't directly threaten them. Utility moves and setup are viable ways to try and dissuade / force past Imposter respectively but neither is significantly better than the others (random special coverage is just objectively worse in this role though).
For the point about scaring out offensive mons, if you have a viable Magic Guard user then it's one that isn't just going to get farmed by common walls like Dondozo (Giratina isn't common), and so you are far from fodder for these walls (given you can actually boost and overwhelm them). In addition to this, if you're always forced out by offensive threats then your defensive Pokemon are under mounting pressure to survive them, as you're practically handing out opportunities to safely wallbreak without any real consolidation. Setup has a second effect which I don't think you're realizing, in that it inherently forces a defensive response (on top of the main benefit of higher damage), and if you're consistently forcing defensive responses then you're minimizing the amount of ground you have to give up responding to other attackers.
Hey all, I'm excited to be the next tier leader. Here's a few quick announcements:
First, please welcome augustakira as your newest council member! Additionally, Tea Guzzler is your next co-tier leader! Both of them have demonstrated clear interest and understanding of the meta through their frequent forum posts and room/discord chat messages, and so these new roles are well deserved.
Finally, we would like to ask for any sample team or VR submissions the community is willing to provide. We are closely watching the initial rounds of the BH Open for new metagame trends, and hope get these resources updated in a few weeks' time.
The following team is a hyper-offense build I that was accepted as a sample for the last round of sample submissions with some adaptations and optimizations for the current meta . The team is built around powerful mixed attackers like Arceus Grass and Rayquza to shatter most defensive cores and suicide Destiny Bond users to quickly restrict offensive counterplay options. Choice Band Zacian and Coalossal round out the rest of the build by offering some form of a defensive backbone and the ability to revenge-kill fast threats like Miriadon and Palkia.
Opimizations over pervious iteration:
1. Since Zacian-Crowned and Quiver Dance are banned there isn't a need for a Choice Scarf Revenge Killer anymore. Band Zacian with Orchalcium Pulse is sufficient in terms of power and speed to come in and threaten out most faster threats.
2. Since Knock-Off and Population Bomb have seen a surge in usage Carkol is replaced with Rocky Helmet Coalassol for more reliablity.
3. Arceus's Plated set is replaced with a life Orb Set to counter the rise in Neutral Fur Coat users like Fur Coat Arceus Ghost
Tips on how to play:
* Zacian is typically the best lead and midground due to its ability to scare out offensive pokemon and force in exploitable walls
* Save Tera-Fire for Arceus grass so it can 1 v 1 Imposter Chansey and so it has its Fire STAB
* Rayquaza, Arceus, and Zacian are Imposter Proofed by Coalossal
* Against bulky Calm Mind Pokemon Eternatus usually can win the 1 v 1 with the combination of Destiny bond and its ability to crit through Calm Mind boosts
Weakness:
* Fur Coat Arceus Fire can be tricky to break through for this team
* Bulky Victory Dance users can sweep the team if one isn't careful to preserve Groudon or Eternatus
* Random Flip Turns
* Primordial Sea Corviknight
Effectiveness:
The team is just as if not more effective than the prior iteration since many threats to the team like Zacian-C and Quiver Dance were removed, while the Hyper Offense build still has all of its tools to wreck havoc on opposing teams.
Synopsis: This is a bulky offense build I ran for the tera suspect that I never got reqs for. The team is built around a potent defensive core of Ice Scales Groudon and Fur Coat Dondozo to tank through most cores and potentially stall them out. Mewtwo is a unique addition that I personally find to be a great special attacker, especially with Psychic Surge essentially making it a Psychic Miraidon. Palafin is here to break through most defensive sweepers that would be a problem for the rest of the team, and Slaking is mostly here because the team originally had a Gorilla Tactics Zacian-C here, and I decided to switch to Slaking.
Tips:
I personally lead either Chansey or Dondozo. Chansey is mostly to scout the enemy's lead and potentially catch them doing something stupid, while Dondozo is a consistent lead that can do massive damage to defensive mons with Ruination.
Save your Tera for Palafin. It can do wonders when boosted wicked blow exists. It also impostorproofs Mewtwo.
Weaknesses:
Physical Walls that are immune to Psychic
Effectiveness:
Yes. Since Zacian-C and QD were removed, Fur Coat Dondozo is more useful and Chansey can do the funny sweeps.
I would like to announce that I will be stepping down as BH Tier Leader, and as a BH council member. It has been a privilege to have lead the metagame from the end of gen8 through the first 6 months of gen9. quojova will be your new Tier Leader!! He is more than fit to lead this metagame, as his dedication to gen8bh and gen9bh has been undoubtedly demonstrated throughout the past year, and his mastery and understanding of the metagame are apparent.
Thank you everyone being incredible contributors to the bh metagame, and friends. Take care :)
Hey all, I'm excited to be the next tier leader. Here's a few quick announcements:
First, please welcome augustakira as your newest council member! Additionally, Tea Guzzler is your next co-tier leader! Both of them have demonstrated clear interest and understanding of the meta through their frequent forum posts and room/discord chat messages, and so these new roles are well deserved.
Finally, we would like to ask for any sample team or VR submissions the community is willing to provide. We are closely watching the initial rounds of the BH Open for new metagame trends, and hope get these resources updated in a few weeks' time.
Synopsis: A team based around the one I use for ladder with some changes (so people don't know what my real team is) that make it easier to play for beginners. I don't really know what this team is built around, I kinda just slapped it together one day and it worked. The defensive cores of this team, Dondozo and Chansey work well on a wide array of offensive matchups, especially Chansey which catches opponents off guard with Fur Coat. Goodra also acts as a special wall though it is more setup oriented. In the case of setup, Haze is available on these two as well as Ting-Lu which forces either switch or stall. Arceus and Slacking offer self-improof that serve as exception offense.
Why Is Easier to Play: Dondozo is tankier and less reliant on combine offense with defense as opposed to Groudon. Ting-Lu self-improofs and no more calculations needed which one ups Toxapex. Removed the another ghost type in favor of Slacking because Ghosts require too much calculation while Slacking is just "hit things hard." (see comment below for slacking)
Tips: Lead with Goodra to set up a layer of Spikes which disables Focus Sash. If they attempt to remove Spikes, force another layer and lead into Ting Lu, otherwise either offense is fine. Note that Slacking is usually for early game offense while Arceus works well in late game. Chansey can be switched in for mild physical threats as well as to heal other party members. Tera-Ghost is available on Chansey in case a Normalize Pokemon is getting out of hand and can't be reasonable stopped by Arceus. Slacking also Ghost-Improofs after consuming Mirror Herb from Spicy Extract.
Weaknesses: Special setups with Taunt, especially dark types, are often devastating if the user doesn't know the metagame well enough. With taunt, the opponent can easily disable Chansey and Dondozo; Slacking wont be able to counter either. Though this may be recoverable with Ting-Lu it may require a sacrifice. However, this is negated if the opposing setup is a dark type. Also, both attackers rely on Ghost/Normal/Fighting for coverage so good Ghost/Normal type predictions or Zoroak-H screws both attackers over.
With a little tweaking, I put this set on Slacking and used it in the sample teams in my comment above, but I didn't expect it to be this successful.
Slaking @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spicy Extract
- Extreme Speed
- Poltergeist
- Strength Sap
A well played Opportunist has to be one of the funniest things I've ever seen. The Opportunity and Herb procs and No Retreat and Fillet Away eliminate competition the the rest of the game. One second its just a monkey and the next second its +4 stages on every stat.
Opportunist is, by far, one of the most underused abilities in G9BH. Boosted by the number of ghost-type setup sweepers using No Retreat as well as other sweepers using Victory Dance/Fillet Away/Gear Shift, Opportunist becomes a beast that steals the opponents stat boosts. Combined with moves like Swagger/Flatter/Spicy Extract, you basically get a free Swords Dance while confusing/lowering the defense of your opponent. Alongside Mirror Herb, Spicy Extract essentially gives a 6x multiplier on your next hit exceeding the power of the banned Belly Drum without any of the HP loss.
I got the following record using some random discarded alt I found:
While neither Opportunist nor Spicy Extract are noteworthy by themselves, they combine together to a devastating combo. My only worry about this set is now that other people will start using it as well which ruins my fun of sweeping people with it.
Don Corleone (Slaking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Double-Edge
- Ceaseless Edge
- Strength Sap
Zacian Balls (Magearna-Original) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Strength Sap
- Moonblast
God (Arceus-Fairy) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Strength Sap
- Substitute
God at home (Palkia-Origin) @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Dragon Energy
- Calm Mind
- Strength Sap
Amonguss (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Haze
- Shore Up
- U-turn
- Metal Burst
Are you tired of taking one million damage from Miraidon and Palkia? Do you enjoy ignoring your opponent’s moves because they don’t actually do damage? Do you want to click moves with no downside? Well I have the team for you. Introducing; The Don’s Bozos: a balanced team centred around double Magic Guard and Water/Volt Absorb fairies designed to infuriate Palkia, Miraidon and status spammers all over the ladder.
This is a very straightforward team I used to get points for the tera suspect. It had Zacian over Magearna before but Magearna is an acceptable replacement after I did some testing. This team is very resilient to dragons because it runs double fairies with immunity abilities. Palkia and Miraidon are free setup, but a free Moonblast/Judgment also does a lot. With the Sub/Sap/CM trinity, you can safely setup against any passive mons, and even against some offensive mons provided they switched in on a QD/Sap/Sub. Both fairies are imposter-roof because of sub. Palkia is here to because there are few resists to its double STAB. With Magic Guard and Sap, it’s also deceptively bulky. Im running Calm Mind but you can run a different tech move like Nasty Plot, Knock Off or Eruption if you want. With Lustrous Globe, it has knock immunity so it can come in on our own Groudon safely. Groudon used to wall Zacian with Fur Coat but I haven’t felt a need to replace it. It’s still a good switch vs Slaking and other Groudons. Arceus can wall Palafin so the water weakness doesn’t matter much and no one use Magic Guard with LO Chloroblast on their Slaking. Finally Slaking is here to click Double-Edge and Ceaseless Edge. You can switch Groudon for imposters to clear hazards. Slaking lead is usually pretty safe since its so tacky and bulky. If they lead Palkia/Miraidon (the two mons which threaten it) then its a free switch to the fairies. Chansey is here to stop setup since I don’t run Haze.
I used to have tera fire on Slaking for Zacian but I kept it for the rare Caly-Ice now. Although I haven’t tested it, I think tera fighting with High Jump Kick might be good to smack Dialga harder. Fire also gives an immunity to burn which is very nice in some cases. Arceus and Chansey tera are for Ghostceus. Our Arceus can beat them 1v1 thanks to CM and Judgment. Dark also resists psychic and dark for some random imposter proof no retreat stored power/power trip sets. I have never tera Chansey because Slaking is already a normal type and some Ghostceus sets absolutely cannot touch a Magic Guard normal type. Haven’t really found a good tera for Chansey but dark could be a good one for power trip/stored power. Finally Magearna has tera water because I ran into this annoying no guard mewtwo set which gets walled completely by a volt absorb water type so if you run into it then watch as their hax moves do nothing. Groudon never Teras but ground tera gives extra damage to EQ so it’s there. If some genius comes up with a way for physical attackers to break past Fur Coat Groudon without toxic then another tera type could be considered.
Generally puts a ton of pressure on opposing teams. You'll need to use Tera wisely to handle opposing threats, the team is generally frail but should hold up well enough to win quickly through agressive play. I think the fact that you can't build a reasonable defensive core with 3 slots says a lot about how many threats there are right now.
Caly-I and Miraidon are the two mons that can reasonably nail OHKOs on targets like FC Arceus, nothing walls both of them and Miraidon forces in things that Calyrex feasts on, so you may need to learn to take risks like hard switching to Calyrex when Mirai brings in a Ground-Type.
Arc-Ground handles opposing Miraidon and can make use of Tera to check Ground coverage Enamorus and Palkia, albeit these are softer checks.
Zacian handles GT mons and sets spikes, it can also scare out Korai/Miraidon and bring in your breakers with Parting Shot.
Corviknight and Imposter are setup control and check pop bomb users like Slaking.
Weaknesses: Opposing Corviknight, Teams that have strong defense with Palkia as a wincon, Enamorus with V-Create + Grounds/Koraidon.
Feel free to fiddle around with the Tera types to make the team work however is best for you. Apparently certain people are using Primsea which is not viable but if that's a concern swap Solar Blade for Power Whip on Calyrex, trading accuracy and a little power for not getting Cteamed is probably good.
These abilities are still... of concern, and I think that they'll continue to be pretty dumb as time goes on. It's kind of dumb how easily you can just force past Fur Coat users by clicking the funny red button and then going to a sapblocker / just spamming spikes and KOing them anyway, to the point that I don't really think these are healthy presences long-term. Orichalcum Pulse might be dumber because it's a 2x modifier to mons' already-strongest attack and the Fire-resistant Fur Coat users are a little questionable (Arc-Fire is sort of a relic, Dondozo / Giratina / Arc-Water have pretty heavy passivity and Imposter issues, and Etern only really works on double-FC structures where you can avoid getting tossed about by Koraidon and Groudon), though Gorilla Tactics is still definitely an issue on stuff like Korai and Don.
Similarly, these are the main problematic special attackers at the minute. Miraidon is probably more pressing (shocker for me, I know) since full-immune targets are less viable than they are for Palk-O (you can at least justify Desland Arc-Fairy a little bit) and you can Volt Switch on really hard counters like Scales Chansey, plus are Glare immune and have Rising Voltage's absurd damage. I've felt that Palkia-O is much more pressing in the builder rather than in the game as would-be OK walls like Ice Scales Dia-O just don't seem sufficient against it (you know the bit where SimplePlot Dragon Energy just OHKOes after 1 spike? lol), though it faces heavier issues of actually conducting its sweep and has no viable way to get around hard-walls. It should be pretty clear that high Base Chansey (not Imposter) usage is indicative that something's wrong.
How to use: Groudon is extremely effective at breaking down walls and forcing Toxic on opponents, both of which make sweeping with Slaking easier. Spreading Toxic with Groudon early on is generally the best way to go, damage-dealing becomes a priority later on when you can Tera Ground to OHKO Arceus after slight chip, and any Ability Shield Eternatus has been Knocked by Slaking (who's generally a side wincon). Corviknight improofs Groudon and Enamorus, Spikes is so it isn't total fodder for RegenVest Ting-Lu and so you don't miss Ceaseless. Arceus-Ghost is a generic Fur Coat user, can be realistically any Arceus but I fancied Nasty Plot Arc-Ghost and also wanted Knock Off to harass AV users and reduce the need for Enamorus to Tera. Enamorus is a wallbreaker first and backup hazard removal second, Enam with Spin up doesn't really have any switch-in other than Tera Fire stuff and go to RegenVest -> go Imposter on predicted Headlong. Chansey is a passive blob of bulk whose sole purpose is to never die, though you need to actually predict around Miraidon Volt Switch if Spikes are up.
Other Options: As said above, basically any Fur Coat Arceus can work. Arceus-Water is probably the most defensive and most effective at not dying but also the most fodder for Imposter and most passive, Arc-Fairy and Arc-Fire are options that lean more towards offense / defense respectively.
Weaknesses:
Wicked Blow spammers like Hoopa-U and Sniper Palafin are just a symptom of running one Fur Coat user weak to Dark. Not a lot that can really be done about this without changing Arceus type or making it Tera Dragon or something.
SNR Arceus-Ghost is an issue mostly on the back of Corviknight not being the bulkiest Prankster user (however it is necessary to Imposter-proof Groudon). Cycling Parting Shot and/or spamming Sap as Slaking is usually sufficient.
Nullifies Groudon. Nothing can be done to fix this as Corviknight is generally not a primary wall, so you can't easily use a teammate to dispatch it, although if they have no Enamorus check then you can PP stall Recover by just spamming Boomburst.
people are catching on to groudon with poison being a great option, this is actually seeing unironic use because it's the only mon immune to both ground and poison without an ability (which can get blasted by moldy don). i tend to use prankster since it's setup control and you don't need a second unmon slot on your team but psea seems more common as a way to brick an equally-powerful balance breaker in arceus-fire. does basically the exact same as psea steela last gen in that it checks very specific threats and is basically dead weight otherwise, but if you have spare slots and no good options for sponging poison then it's not terrible.
ooze is still generally pretty good, though zacian hero doesn't have a whole lot of attack and it isn't excellent outside of being an ooze bot. running ooze to support band users isn't even massively necessary because tera is broken (see below), though this pretty handily bricks the "offensive" ones that rely on sap for healing like arc-ghost and most groudon (these clicking setup on the switch is a risk though). ceaseless means this has actual utility and shackle traps stuff including but not limited to imp and other sap users.
Arceus-Fire @ Earth Plate
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Growth
- V-create
- Judgment
- Strength Sap
the checks to this are imposter and psea corv. as far as i can tell that's it. earth plate judgment cooks fc etern and arc-fire and judgment naturally out-damages all the passive waters that don't out-damage you. judgment does about the same % damage when used by imposter so it doesn't really count as a primary improofing method, using another mon is safest even if the pool of these to choose from is pretty limited. the other plates aren't really options here, icicle plate hits etern SE and corv neutrally but fc waters/fires are immovable and full-neutral plates like dread just don't do enough damage.
Koraidon @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Glaive Rush
- Close Combat
- Gigaton Hammer
- Flip Turn
we should have killed tera. the fact that this can just run choice band, click tera, and 2HKO literally everything in the tier is really not funny, and what do you know, it's not a gorilla tactics issue: i count 5 (orichalcum pulse, sword of ruin, adaptability, tough claws, mold breaker) abilities that can hit most of the similar ranges on fur coat stuff, give or take a little % of prior chip. funny how miraidon and palkia-o are also problems because balanced mechanic lets them just decide to not get walled and also force mindgames with imp (a would-be consistent form of pressure) by doing absolutely nothing. like, do you remember the part where mirai 2HKOes a fucking chansey on its standard set and we kept this mechanic legal?
because of the unfortunate suspect outcome, we really don't have a lot of options. we can basically:
leave the meta as is, wait for developed answers to the broken stuff comes up (i can guarantee this is either not going to happen or will create a second immune abil fish meta)
ban mirai/palk/gt/opulse, end up with a metagame irreperably centered on hazards for any progress (so gen 8 but objectively worse)
i really don't know what else to say here other than the below screenshot:
we were dealt a pretty bad hand with the game's contents, DLC isn't until fall so we have to break tera manually to ban it ig
walking wake is a straight downgrade to palkia-origin. there won't be a "good" wake team but if you're that desperate just get a palk team and replace it because they're functionally identical in this tier
walking wake is a straight downgrade to palkia-origin. there won't be a "good" wake team but if you're that desperate just get a palk team and replace it because they're functionally identical in this tier
Imposter has basically been the most metagame defining feature of BH. I'm not going to go into why that is and what Imposter does because there are other posts that go into that detail if you are unfamiliar. This post is going to focus on why I believe that Imposter is now an actual issue in this specific meta of BH.
This seems very strange, as Imposter has always been a balanced and necessary aspect of the metagame. Again, there are lots of posts that go over why Imposter should not be banned as it is probably one of the most asked questions about BH. But specifically for this meta I believe we no longer have the proper tools to keep Imposter completely under our control, and it has become too powerful and overbearing. Now, this post will primarily focus on the strongest variant of Imposter, being Eviolite Chansey. Other variants are absolutely viable and also very strong, and I will explain about those later.
The Problem:
Imposter has an extremely strong matchup into defensive mons while retaining the ability to defensively check, or at worse, 1v1 almost all offensive mons.
The difference between SVBH and other BH metas, such as NDBH, SSBH, and USUMBH
Imposter has been balanced in every other recent BH meta, so what specific aspects of SVBH makes it unique?
- Absence of effective Trapping Moves
By far the most notable point. Permanent trapping moves have been one of the simplest and most effective counterplay to Imposter. Simply run a trapping move and threaten to trap and pp stall the Imposter. Anchor Shot and Thousand Waves have been core moves for recent BH metas, but right now, they are absent. The only trapping moves at our disposal are Spirit Shackle, Jaw Lock, and Block/Mean Look. Block deals no damage, provides no utility or coverage, and on top of that only has 8 PP. Jaw Lock traps the user as well, forcing either Tera Ghost or Shed Shell, a very niche item in the current meta due to the much better alternatives. Spirit Shackle is the most common and most viable, but in comparison Anchor Shot has 32 PP and no immunities, while Thousand Waves is stronger, has a more relevant damage type, less common immunities, and bypasses Covert Cloak.
- Presence of Terastalization
The first immediate benefit of Tera for Imposter is it can always dodge trapping with Tera Ghost, and this notably is not vulnerable to Knock Off, unlike Shed Shell (previous metas saw mons utilize Trapping + Knock Off to ensure Shed Shell Imposter is forced out as well). Alternatively, Tera Normal provides an immunity to the most common trapping move Spirit Shackle, providing Imposter with two possible Tera types to bypass Trapping. Note that these two types are not just useful for countering trapping, but Ghost is useful into Normal-types like Slaking while Normal is useful for Plate Imposter into Ghost types or for non Plate variants into Flutter Mane or for boosting damage on Judgment.
The other aspect of Tera for Imposter is it makes it highly highly unpredictable and the biggest matchup fish user of Tera. Unlike offensive Pokemon who typically run predictable, generally 1 or 2 different Tera types, reducing the Tera prediction to when, if ever, the mon will Tera, Imposter can run numerous different effective Tera types for different matchups into offensive Pokemon. For example, Fire grants favourable matchups into stuff like Enamorus and Calyrex-I, while Fairy is good into the Dragons. This adds another layer of prediction as to whether Imposter has the correct Tera type for offensive mons vs Imposter matchups.
In addition, not only does this add a further degree of unpredictability and potential to lose one's offensive mon due to Imposter Tera, it can also heavily disrupt Improofing for offensive mons. There are defensive improofs that rely on methods such as the aforementioned trapping, status, or SE STAB to force out Imposter, but this can all change due to Tera.
- Recovery nerf
Halving PP of standard recovery moves makes it a lot easier for Imposter users to grind down defensive improofs and also further enhances Imposter's matchup into defensive mons by being able to burn valuable recovery pp if Imposter is unable to be immediately forced out. It also makes Imposter have comparatively better longevity since Imposter doesn't burn its own PP for healing generally. Recovery nerf, along with something else, also makes Regenerator more viable, which provides Imposter with basically undeniable healing.
- Lack of consistent offensive options that matchup favourably into Imposter
While Judgment sets, notably Ghostceus, and Tera can make several offensive threats generally selfproof, apart from the unreliability and dedicated Tera slot for Tera variants, are much less notable than prominent Ghost type offensive threats like Mega Gengar and Poison Heal offensive threats.
- Lack of Poison Heal
Poison Heal not only fulfills a consistent offensive or support role that is self proof, but also provides a consistent and viable improof to teammates. Poison Heal users distinguish from other improofs by being self improof themselves, having passive recovery to offset any chip damage from the Imposter (helps maintain momentum and not get drained of recovery pp), being a Knock absorber, and being a status absorber, common tools against imposter that are ran on non-trapping sets.
A minor point but PH also makes trapping slightly better since trapping and ability removal is a reasonable counterplay option.
- Heal Bell
The lack of Poison Heal also increases the amount of status-inducing moves thrown around, removes the most viable way to absorb status, and removes the risk of Heal Bell removing a teammate's Poison, especially if Toxic Orb is Knocked. This means that Heal Bell is much more viable and justifiable to run. Imposter not only appreciates Heal Bell to deal with the status effects that are used against it for improofing, but also can capitalize on Heal Bell users, as Heal Bell users have to be well improofed to prevent Imposter from utilizing it for free.
- Lower power level
This meta's overall power level is generally lower, at least when compared to say NDBH. The offensive threats are notably weaker, considering that 150 Attack is basically the peak. While it can be argued that a lot of the current top offensive mons have better matchups into Imposter through super effective STABs unlike say MMY, it is important to note that the lower power level makes it noticeably harder to offensively improof. One cannot just improof defensive mons like Dialga-O by bringing in a dangerous wallbreaker that threatens to OHKO even Imposter since breakers like Koraidon are significantly weaker than say MMX.
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Koraidon Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 630-744 (89.4 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Note this is without Eviolite)
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 728-858 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (SoR even instead of GT)
Why this is a problem.
All the aforementioned points suggest that Imposter is noticeably stronger and more difficult to improof for defensive mons, so what effects does this have?
- Very very difficult to deny Imposter healing
Imposter can pretty much always heal up on some defensive mon on the team, as the only way to actually potentially prevent completely is through running Spirit Shackle to threaten to trap it and running Strength Sap on the other members and Sap block. However as mentioned Spirit Shackle has some serious opportunity costs in running and doesn't provide much else, while running mono Sap healing also risks the mon itself getting Sap blocked. Thus, its impossible to rely on chipping Imposter down as way to bypass Imposter, unless the team is extremely aggressive, but even this would rely on a favourable matchup to make extremely aggressive plays. What this means is:
- Team wincons are generally rigid
Because its really hard to chip down Imposter, the most common way of making progress for teams relies on strong wallbreakers that have the potential to beat Imposter with maybe some support such as a status condition or item removal. This is reflected in the meta, where offensive threats that are highly susceptible to Imposter, such as the Fireceus set Tea posted earlier, to offensive breakers like Groudon and Slaking, to less viable mons like Mewtwo, are generally less favourable (yes I know GT Groudon is very popular but personally stuff like Koraidon are stronger and at least GT Groudon can 1v1 Imposter if it gets Knocked or Paraed). This also means that defensive teams like Stall have a much harder time, as they need to deal with Imposter with reliable healing methods without using burst damage. Note that it doesn't even matter if sets like the mentioned Fireceus set or standard setup Palkia-O has recovery that gets blocked by a teammate, since Imposter can potentially just heal up on defensive mons.
- Teambuilding is very difficult (at least the defensive part)
While this can be seen as skill issue, what Imposter does on teambuilding is IMO negative. Defensive mons already have to deal with the numerous offensive threats while compressing roles like providing utility moves and playing the hazard game, and with Imposter, while its pretty impossible to deny its healing, it at least needs to be forced out so it doesn't just stall 20 PP every time.
Examples
Lets analyze a potent team and see how Imposter matches into it. For this example, lets use Akira's sample submission. (Note this does not mean this team is not good, this is instead showing how even a great team can have issues with Imposter. This analysis can also be done with a team like Tea's submission, but I'm not as familiar with that team's intended improofing)
Both breakers have effective ways of massive damaging Imposter, with Calyrex threatening an OHKO with V-create without Tera, while Miraidon hitting for minimum 68% on Eviolite. That being said, both breakers have only one move that greatly threatens Imposter, which means prediction is needed, and considering that both are Choice locked means Imposter can have opportunities to switch in.
Calyrex has no healing, and the improof Zacian is resilient enough. Miraidon can feed healing to Imposter with Sap onto Groundceus, though. Groundceus is improofed by Corviknight, but it should be noted that Corviknight can't actually threaten the Imposter at all or even force it out (burning Imposter is actually really good for Imposter because it gets to dodge Poisons), and neither can Calyrex-I safely since GLance doesn't OHKO Evio. Corviknight is improofed by Chansey, who actually threatens Imposter with a sneaky Mean Look, but cannot deny a healing on the switch, and once again has to be careful about burning Imposter. Zacian is improofed by Groundceus, but Imposter can heal up with Strength Sap, and Groundceus can only threaten through Toxic (which is the problem with burning); meanwhile Imposter can drain Tidy Up PP by spamming CEdge and prevent setup with Sap. Thus this defensive core doesn't matchup well at all into Imposter, which is one reason why the team relies on aggressive play with Calyrex and Miraidon, as otherwise Imposter can win a long game (granted the team has its own Imposter).
In addition here are two replays highlighting some problems of Imposter. Replay 1. This game of my own highlights Tera Imposter causing significant problems. Turn 17 Imposter Tera Normals and bypasses my improof that relies on Spirit Shackle. This also drains Zama-C of most of its recovery (hindsight I should've Teraed Zama-C but irrelevant). This continues to cause issues on Turn 64 when Imposter copies my Zacian. Zacian's improof was meant to be Zama-C, but with Helmet knocked its a bit more complicated. Without the previous interaction, Zama-C can Tera Fire, boost up defenses, and threaten with Body Press, but that was no longer the case (if his Imposter was Tera Ghost then this would've been even worse as Zama-C becomes PP stalled by Impostered Zac. Replay 2. This game features Imposter against Magic Guard hazard spam Stall. Imposter this game was basically unable to chip down for the Stall team, and so it relies on using phazing and hazards to chip down the teammates. We see Imposter being brought in 18 times, draining PP and recovery PP. Obviously the success was reliant on having a high longevity breaker (Miraidon) along with Spike-immune teammates (Corvi and Arceus), but nonetheless I think this replay does a good job highlighting how obnoxious and potent Imposter is at PP stalling.
Solutions?
Seeing that Imposter is a notable problem in this meta, are there any possible solutions to this? Well personally I don't really know. Imposter has been integral to the BH meta and a meta without it is pretty unrecognizable. Offensive mons might run rampant without Imposter holding back, Regenerator becomes completely free etc. On the other hand, doing nothing seems unsatisfactory as well, as Imposter is simply too good, too restrictive. Something that can potentially work as a midground is banning Chansey. The main difference between Chansey and Blissey is obviously Eviolite, and the massive bulk increase Eviolite offers allows Chansey to survive a lot of hits and scout some threats safely. With Eviolite, its very difficult to straight up OHKO Chansey, and even some super effective moves can be sponged.
+1 252 SpA Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 564-666 (78.9 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 378-446 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Groudon Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 334-394 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Groudon Headlong Rush vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 223-264 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 88.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Koraidon Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Koraidon: 650-768 (91 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Koraidon Glaive Rush vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Koraidon: 434-512 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Arceus-Fire Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fire: 344-406 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Arceus-Fire Headlong Rush vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fire: 230-272 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO
There's a problem with this too, as Imposter Blissey still can do everything Chansey did against defensive mons, bar some rare offensive improofing situations, while boasting more bulk if Knocked. Should Blissey then be banned, making Regidrago the next choice. When does Imposter become "acceptable"?
In conclusion, I don't really know what is the best approach to solve this Imposter issue. This is a very BH-specific problem and one that is meta-defining, so I would be keen on knowing what you think. Do you find Imposter an issue in the current meta? If yes, how significant of a problem is it? And what approach do you think is best for resolving Imposter?
so i think this is a pretty skewed analysis of what imposter does in current meta for a number of reasons.
first off, the point about lack of good trapping moves is fair but IMO this only really matters for thousand waves. with twaves we have actually viable ground-types (groudon and arc-ground) that would appreciate the move, and in its absence they've started using knock and toxic to punish imposter for switching in rather than trying to remove it. if you look at historic anchor usage, basically only steel-types used it, and if you couldn't tell those are really in the mud right now - you cannot convince me zama-c is viable, rusted sword zac-c isn't going to be trapping much even if it had anchor bc no ability or item, and dialga-o's anchor works exclusively for imposter which either gets pshotted or has to switch in on a regenvest and just accept paralysis, item loss, or spikes going up. my point here is that only the absence of waves matters in the long run, and it's not like these would-be users are somehow immune to exploitation by imposter - toxic / mortal spin exist and are a good deal of the reason why they use it.
i would argue the other way for tera - it actively harms imposter's presence. say you're staring down akira's opulse caly-i and you've pivoted in your imposter. do you know basically for certain that they're tera fire and can blow past you with v-create? yeah probably. are you magically going to be tera fire to counter-act against that? only if you chose to in the builder. my point here is that while imp tera does force predictions it is just simply not a magical ward that denies stuff with any amount of consistency. tera normal helps beat shackle and ghostceus, sure, but you're actively putting yourself at a disadvantage by using tera normal and also by using plate imp (which is unviable), and dodging shackle is meaningless when you are literally the only decent player i've seen trying to self-proof with it in recent times. there are no points here where you can convince me it's an imp issue and not a tera issue.
recovery nerf is fair enough but idt this is reason alone to think imp is problematic. games rarely end up with something losing due to running out of recovers except specifically in balance wars, which are going to have robust improofing with status spam / plate users / heavy knock and edge uses anyway.
the self-proofing bit i don't really get because all of these are rarities to begin with. the presence of choice stuff that smashes imp really hard (glaive rush korai, pop bomb slak/ursa, any dragon energy user, v-create caly-i, headlong don, headlong/earth plate arc-fire) already pseudo-does this in addition to stuff like judgment users, and just because they aren't the forefront of the metagame like gigas/xern/mgar doesn't in any way mean they are automatically unviable or niche. the point about there being less prominent options is somewhat accurate but less total, viable options is just objectively false. these are rare luxuries to begin with so there is basically no reason to be concerned.
the point about lower power level is also just confirmation bias imo. you're comparing something to MMX here, literally the second strongest pokemon available in natdex and the thing with the highest attack stat ever - no shit koraidon's going to be weaker. this is also a pretty shoddy example as on these pivot-spammy structures that are going to carry these types of mons (the ones that threaten to OHKO imps of other team members), ceaseless and knock are going to be on half the team. the difference in these 2 just disappears after one (1) spike or knock and spikes are all over the place here so this difference is in practice really not hard to make up. also personally i don't see why this is a relevant calc because who is leaving their imposter steel-type in on a choice band fighting if they are at risk of getting KOed
i don't really get your point on denying imp healing. in real terms there's nothing stopping it clicking recover but you have three whole other moveslots to punish it for doing so. imp wants to heal? just take its eviolite or set a spike or status it. defensive mons that don't use trapping well have always relied on status and knock, why does this gen need to be any different? do these magically not work anymore? sap is also easier than ever to deny what with regular chansey sadly being a thing that people actually run, liquid ooze being more effective, and good as gold simply existing.
"strong wallbreakers that have the potential to beat Imposter" - strong wallbreakers are broken with or without imposter thanks to tera and a myriad of abilities. what reason do i have to believe that banning imp or chansey will magically change these being the best options? the fireceus is also the only valid example for a pon that imposter's presence directly harms - chansey enjoys neither of slaking or groudon's presence due to knock and status being almost guaranteed (and they can also just boost past if chansey has any status or if it's injured + they aren't using victory dance) and mewtwo is just not valid because the mon itself does nothing whether imp is there or not.
on almost every defensive mon you're going to be carrying something that harms imposter before you even end up considering how this matches up into imposter. on some stuff you even have 2 spare slots rather than 1 (slaking and arc-ghost) which you can use to annoy imp even more. stuff that forces imp out is usually just free to fit - you have to purposefully go out of your way to make imp freely exploit your defensive mon.
i don't know how you want to convince people that imp is broken with a sample size of 2 and such gems as ironpress bounce zama-c, freeze-dry kyogre, a zacian whose improof is helmet? (like seriously what were you thinking when building this team) and prankster sylveon. using "stall that relies on indirect damage beaten by a pokemon with infinite recovery, no ways to deny said recovery, and also it copies magic guard" is far from convincing either. for your replay tera normal also has no sizeable impact on the game if your opponent simply remembered they had a whole giratina in the back which you could not touch at all.
tl;dr not a fan of most of this reasoning, banning imposter is a terrible miskate that takes the meta from questionable to outright unplayable. banning chansey instead does not solve any of the proposed issues.
chessking takes a near 180, good to see.
on an unrelated note what are thoughts on population bomb? personally I think its insanely strong being nigh unwallable without a ghost type or resist+fur coat. popular picks like dondozo don't wall any -ate ability type and needs tera.
chessking takes a near 180, good to see.
on an unrelated note what are thoughts on population bomb? personally I think its insanely strong being nigh unwallable without a ghost type or resist+fur coat. popular picks like dondozo don't wall any -ate ability type and needs tera.
generally, population bomb isn't a massive issue. -ate users typically lack the power to threaten fur coat stuff (on top of needing coil and pads to reasonably threaten physical walls), and gorilla tactics users (slaking and ursa) basically can't break ghosts / have to contend with accuracy. this leaves basically only non-choiced slaking as the only real pop bomb threat, and it is immensely threatening, but it suffers with needing setup to be threatening and either being slow (coil) or relying on wide lens to be useful (victory / tidy up). helmet generally isn't a solution since mguard is by far the most common option, but in general slaking cant break past any ghosts by itself and needs to be running v-create to actually threaten steels. low PP on boosting moves also means it's pretty vulnerable to getting PP stalled by fur coat sap users and imposter.
Finally, we've been looking at our options for tiering action. The main things standing out at the minute are Gorilla Tactics and Miraidon, and there'll probably be an update on these in the coming weeks.
GT has been pretty controversial since it's unbanning at the start of SV BH. As it turns out, a free Choice Band is incredibly centralizing and hard to counter, particularly when combined with Tera (which we couldn't ban). The various different GT users also creates a notable deal of matchup fishing, as what's viable against one attacker (Fur Coat Zacian against GT Koraidon) might be insufficient against another (like GT Groudon or Slaking), and even then most walls are one predict away from simply failing and having to predict around Strength Sap-blockers like Chansey and Liquid Ooze users. The fact that almost all Gorilla Tactics users can Terastallize and just 2HKO walls through Fur Coat (the most notable example being Koraidon's Glaive Rush) is ultimately the thing pushing it over the edge, as this creates many unwinnable and binary games that can feel far from skill-intensive. There are some pretty close substitutes, like Sword of Ruin and Orichalcum Pulse, however these aren't necessarily as potent and so handling threats with these abilities is likely easier (although we will be keeping an eye on OPulse specifically).
I used to run this set on Zacian-C but since it got banned we have to use discount Zacian at home. The idea is to click Gigaton Hammer, then follow up with a priority Copycat into another Gigaton Hammer. Copycat bypasses hammer’s restriction. When I ran this on Zacian, I OHKO’d a lot of other Zacian because they did not expect me to bonk them twice in a row. Do note that dark type mons are actually immune to copycat moves so don’t try this against them. This set is not imposterproof with SD but if you go +def with coil, it becomes imposterproof since it takes the imposter 3 turns to break your sub. You can also run Encore + Tidy Up to punish setup.
252 Atk Kingambit Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kingambit: 85-101 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 411-484 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Kingambit Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Miraidon: 348-411 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
If you tera steel, you can guarantee the OHKO on these calls.
Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance / Strength Sap / Encore
- Shadow Force
- Copycat
- Substitute
This next set is similar to the Kingambit set above but with Shadow Force. We go min speed so this Giratina can go after the opponent. Basically, you tank a hit (because you are Giratina) and vanish with Shadow Force on turn 1. On turn 2, your opponent can’t hit you because they are faster. Then you hit them with Shadow Force. On turn 3 you click Copycat to outspeed them and vanish. After this turn you just can just spam Copycat to call Shadow Force. Basically this means that if your opponent is faster than you, they can’t hit you at all apart from the first turn. Now there are some counters to this. You can’t touch normal types with this set, and if your opponent has a priority move, it will break your Shadow Force chain. You can also Copycat your opponent’s moves for a surprise. For example, you sub on Palkia/Miraidon then Copycat their Dragon Energy. SD can be replaced by other moves. You can also run Giratina-O if you want a bit more damage. Giratina is so weak that you need +4 to 2HKO stuff or +6 to OHKO. This set is semi imposterproof.
Scenario 1:
Turn 1: you sub, they SF.
Turn 2: you copycat their SF, their SF misses
Turn 3: they copycat your SF, your SF misses
Turn 4+: spam copycat and dodge all their SF. Your sub survives.
Scenario 2:
Turn 1: you sub, they sub
Turn 2~: Use SD/sub until they SF
Turn 3: spam copycat, look at scenario 1
Scenario 3:
Turn 1: you sub, they SF.
Turn 2: you copycat their SF, their SF misses
Turn 3: you copycat their SF, they click SF.
Turn 4: speed tie on SF, might lose sub if you go first.
Turn 5: you click sub, they SF
Turn 6+: speed ties on SF, hope they misplay and click copycat to go to scenario 1.
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Grass / Steel / Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Strength Sap
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
This last set uses an underused setup move in Cosmic Power. It is imposterproof unless you tera into a non-resist type. With simple CP, your opponent is gonna have a hard time killing this mewtwo without crits sub+sap for survivability. Mewtwo outspeed Palkia but not Miraidon so you can stored power after 1 CP to weaken their DE/Water Spout. Unfortunately miraidon is faster so you’re not beating that unless you already have 2 or 3 turns to setup. Note that you basically need +6/+6 to start getting rolls to OHKO stuff, but even then there are a lot of mons that need prior chip.
252 SpA Mewtwo Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 336-396 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you can also tera psychic to guarantee you OHKO most things at +6/+6 if you want.
probably the main drawback of these sets is that you have to both set up and then use the move that copycat's calling, which is a... slim chance to say the least especially for the defensive typings those have. prank copycat existed last gen too btw:
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- V-create
- Shadow Force
- Copycat
- Swords Dance / Destiny Bond / Glacial Lance
alowak was still unviable but probably better than these for 3 main reasons:
STAB combination was actually very good (see blacephalon) thanks to v-create and shadow force hitting every relevant phys wall besides zyg-c
actually posed a risk to standard mons while unboosted thanks to thick club, which meant v-create could OHKO regigigas after spikes
it undersped everything in the metagame, so unlike giratina, it wouldn't exit shadow force straight into a knock
as for the mewtwo set i'm not really a fan. mono-stored power isn't that good when ting-lu is on the majority of balance teams, and prankster users can handily pp stall it. awkward speed tier means miraidon bullies you if you aren't already at +4 and the normalize ghosts beat you, and this loathes the existence of parting shot since it isn't boosting spatk to offset the drops (although, if you aren't using nasty plot, pshot spam would keep you entirely in check anyway). mewtwo in general is in a pretty weird spot like last gen, it has absurd tools in eforce + psysurge and the new lumina crash but being a psychic type is such a huge drawback and multiple relevant things actually outspeed it now instead of merely tying it. recent upticks in base chansey also don't help either, and the theoretical workaround for ting-lu and chansey (collision course) comes off of a weak base attack and you need to hit multiple consecutive preditcs to get past.
These abilities are still... of concern, and I think that they'll continue to be pretty dumb as time goes on. It's kind of dumb how easily you can just force past Fur Coat users by clicking the funny red button and then going to a sapblocker / just spamming spikes and KOing them anyway, to the point that I don't really think these are healthy presences long-term. Orichalcum Pulse might be dumber because it's a 2x modifier to mons' already-strongest attack and the Fire-resistant Fur Coat users are a little questionable (Arc-Fire is sort of a relic, Dondozo / Giratina / Arc-Water have pretty heavy passivity and Imposter issues, and Etern only really works on double-FC structures where you can avoid getting tossed about by Koraidon and Groudon), though Gorilla Tactics is still definitely an issue on stuff like Korai and Don.
Wicked Blow spammers like Hoopa-U and Sniper Palafin are just a symptom of running one Fur Coat user weak to Dark. Not a lot that can really be done about this without changing Arceus type or making it Tera Dragon or something.
SNR Arceus-Ghost is an issue mostly on the back of Corviknight not being the bulkiest Prankster user (however it is necessary to Imposter-proof Groudon). Cycling Parting Shot and/or spamming Sap as Slaking is usually sufficient.
Nullifies Groudon. Nothing can be done to fix this as Corviknight is generally not a primary wall, so you can't easily use a teammate to dispatch it, although if they have no Enamorus check then you can PP stall Recover by just spamming Boomburst.
