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Just for the record, I don't hold strong opinions on imposter anymore. I got a bit carried away with my overly articulate repetition machine for a bit there.
Are the countermeasures somewhat arbitrary? Yes. Does imposter take any real creativity to use? Not really. Yeah, it can be frustrating for new players like myself and catch them off-guard. But after really taking the time to understand the metagame, I realize that it's not that big a deal as long as you're willing to learn. It's like chess.
Also, I was speaking about it as if it were something that was being "used against me." This is obviously wrong, because everyone has access to it.
Anyway, I'm done complaining. I've come to realize this was simply a problem with all 10 of my brain cells struggling to understand countermeasures.
Council on Tera:
The meta has drastically changed since the Tera suspect with multiple bans and meta shifts since then, and considering the general view on Tera's overall impact on the current meta the BH Council is planning to revisit Terastallization near the end of OMPL.
My personal observations of Tera in OMPL so far is later in this post.
As promised here is the mid-OMPL meta reflection (3 weeks of regular season + playoffs left). Also happens to be right before SSNL.
The specific mon observations are in this post in Resources Thread. OMPL W1-W4 Usage Stats:
This is the list of all 16 replays so far for OMPL if anyone is interested in checking some stuff out. For usage stats I divided some ambiguous mons such as Chansey and Zacian and added the two unknown Arceus-formes.
Usages:
As expected, Arceus had 100% usage rate. Groudon takes the second most used slot with a dubious winrate though. Corviknight has an astonishing usage rate, mainly as a check to Groudon while acting as a decent pivot. Flutter Mane sees high usage as the main special wallbreaker between its two meta sets. Fairyceus is the most common Arceus forme due to its excellent defensive capabilities with either FurScales or a good offensive mon with Pixilate. Koraidon sees low use, most likely due to it being too standard and being a bit prediction reliant due to the high usage of Fairy-types.
Winrates:
Some notable high winrate Pokemon are Rayquaza and Zamazenta-C (along with some lower sample size ones), two generally underused mons.
Some notable low winrate Pokemon are Groudon, Corviknight (very surprising usage rate), Eternatus, Giratina, Non-Imp Chansey, and Ting-Lu. What is surprising here is these are high usage rate mons.
The highest perfect winrate mons are Meloetta-Aria and Zacian-Crowned.
Note that these numbers are by no mean the full indicator of the meta due to low sample size and different environment, while also not accounting for stuff like hax and matchup.
Imposter:
Yes it is me going on Imposter again. Imposter is absolutely nuts. Providing scouting information, long term wincon, universal soft check, momentum grabber, forcing the opponent to make linear plays / reducing the amount of plays they have. This mon does it all. Sitting in top usage with a sizable gap to second while boasting an incredible 74% winrate (14W 5L). While this doesn't seem too high when there are some similar winrate mons with less usage, what 74% does not reflect is that of the 5 losses, 4 of them were Imposter mirror matches, making the matchup between a team having Imposter vs a team without Imposter a staggering 10-1. An additional stat here is that Chansey has been lead for 14/32 games, with a strong 78.57% winrate, and I highly doubt people are leading non-Imposter Chansey.
Is there anything that can be done about Imposter's dominance? As mentioned in the prior posts, banning Imposter is unfeasible because it causes way more issues. Banning Eviolite is unfeasible because you would just ban Chansey. Banning Chansey is something I have suggested before because it significantly reduces Imposter bulk, making it more difficult for it to remain healthy and granting opportunities to break through. It also provides certain mons like Eternatus a much easier time to heavily threaten Imposter with their middling power SE STABs.
However, as seen through some replays, Covert Cloak Imposter has an even better matchup into defensive presence due to blocking Mortal, Salt, Nuzzle, and Shackle. And even without Eviolite, Imposter still boasts enough bulk for certain offensive mon matchups. Should Chansey be banned, there will also be new viable longevity-increasing items being utilized, like Boots and Lefties. Banning Chansey also comes with a side effect of banning non-Imposter Chansey, though that isn't a very meta impacting mon at the moment, and if anything becomes broken because of that we can react with other tiering actions unlike if we were to full ban Imposter.
Bulky Setup:
Bulky setup has become extremely popular, almost entirely on Arceus formes. These sets are very strong at role compressing, providing a physical/special wall while serving as a secondary wincon for Balance teams. They are very similar to the Poison Heal sets, trading the utility option for a recovery move, and the coverage move generally dedicated to a way to disrupt Imposter. We have seen a forme of this before with the popular Ghostceus, but newly used formes include Fairy, Poison, and Steel.
Tera:
Tera has again and again shown its game-breaking impact throughout this tournament. The most powerful effect so far has been basically-dedicated offensive Tera mons utilizing Tera's STAB bonus to dish out ludicrous amounts of damage, with most common examples being -ate mons like Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Fairyceus, and Rayquaza, though other offensive mons such as Flare Boost Flutter and Arceus-Fire also have used it effectively. With Tera, these wallbreakers become extremely difficult to wall outside of niche checks that do little else. One of the biggest abusers is the rising LO Rayquaza, with Tera boosting its Boomburst to incredible wallbreaking power while the boosted Extreme Speed patches up its middling speed, allowing it to 2HKO Scales Arceus.
Tera is also used often on the aforementioned Calm Mind Arceus formes (that are not Poison or Steel) to gain an immunity to poison, while being able to poison Imposter. I believe this is most commonly Fairyceus. Poison or Steel also provide useful resistances, such as resisting Pixi attacks.
Surprise defensive Tera is as crazy as always, allowing mons to just live an otherwise lethal hit and typically retaliate, either straight up koing the mon or neutralizing it. This is seen on choices like Tera Steel Flutter Mane (who doesn't really need the Tera boost) to prevent common revenge-killing methods like Iron Bundle, Extreme Speed, Koraidon Gigaton speedtie. This results in a lot of plays where a player brings in an offensive mon that outspeeds and can OHKO the opponent, but immediately pivots/doubles to scout for potential Tera, creating a lot of unhealthy 50/50s.
Defensive Tera is more tame than the other possibilities, but is generally an inferior choice because you are giving up the opportunity to use broken offensive Tera yourself and generally requires an early Tera because reactionary Tera's can still leave your wall 2HKOed, making it harder to surprise the opponent. Due to turning into a mono type, defensive Tera also is generally still insufficient against the offensive Tera wallbreakers if a surprise turn is not possible.
Is there anything that can be done about Imposter's dominance? As mentioned in the prior posts, banning Imposter is unfeasible because it causes way more issues. Banning Eviolite is unfeasible because you would just ban Chansey. Banning Chansey is something I have suggested before because it significantly reduces Imposter bulk, making it more difficult for it to remain healthy and granting opportunities to break through. It also provides certain mons like Eternatus a much easier time to heavily threaten Imposter with their middling power SE STABs.
However, as seen through some replays, Covert Cloak Imposter has an even better matchup into defensive presence due to blocking Mortal, Salt, Nuzzle, and Shackle. And even without Eviolite, Imposter still boasts enough bulk for certain offensive mon matchups. Should Chansey be banned, there will also be new viable longevity-increasing items being utilized, like Boots and Lefties. Banning Chansey also comes with a side effect of banning non-Imposter Chansey, though that isn't a very meta impacting mon at the moment, and if anything becomes broken because of that we can react with other tiering actions unlike if we were to full ban Imposter.
Translation:
If we ban eviolite, that won't be much more than banning chansey.
If we ban chansey, other imposters will be the problem. Corollary:
If we ban blissey, other imposters will be the problem.
If we ban regidrago, other imposters will be the problem.
If we ban cetitian, other imposters will be the problem. Conjecture 1:
If Imposter is the problem, ban imposter. If other things become the problem after, also ban them. Conjecture 2:
Let's stop at some point of the Corollary and call it a day. For example, ban Chansey and Blissey.
Bulky setup has become extremely popular, almost entirely on Arceus formes. These sets are very strong at role compressing, providing a physical/special wall while serving as a secondary wincon for Balance teams. They are very similar to the Poison Heal sets, trading the utility option for a recovery move, and the coverage move generally dedicated to a way to disrupt Imposter. We have seen a forme of this before with the popular Ghostceus, but newly used formes include Fairy, Poison, and Steel.
Leading on from Chessking's Tera notes above, we will be revisiting Tera at some point soon. We don't have an exact timeframe, as we don't want to disrupt OMPL / too majorly disrupt Seasonal (go sign up, accepting subs), and it may be worth waiting until National Dex takes any action, we don't know. The earliest we'd likely do it is July 8th, as this guarantees no disruption to OMPL, but this isn't a firm date.
What we're also not sure on is how to approach tiering after this suspect if it were to end in ban. What I mean by this is we're unsure if we free select things from the banlist and suspect/QB them out, or keep the current banlist and re-suspect select things in. This is in addition to what we'd actually be selecting, as there's no one concensus on what could be fine without Tera - Miraidon, Orichalcum Pulse, Gorilla Tactics, and Slaking are all on the table, with Zacian-C and Ceaseless Edge probably still too unhealthy.
Also, although it isn't implemented on Showdown yet, you're able to see the Arceus forme at team preview on cartridge. How do you think this will affect the meta? Personally, I think the biggest hit will be to things that heavily profit off of surprise factor, so mainly-offensive options like Desolate Land Arceus-Fire and Simple Arceus-Ghost will probably get a little bit worse. Defensive options like Calm Mind Arceus-Fairy or Arceus-Poison probably stay about the same, as the main variance with them is their Tera Type and Plate.
Tera:
Tera has again and again shown its game-breaking impact throughout this tournament. The most powerful effect so far has been basically-dedicated offensive Tera mons utilizing Tera's STAB bonus to dish out ludicrous amounts of damage, with most common examples being -ate mons like Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Fairyceus, and Rayquaza, though other offensive mons such as Flare Boost Flutter and Arceus-Fire also have used it effectively. With Tera, these wallbreakers become extremely difficult to wall outside of niche checks that do little else. One of the biggest abusers is the rising LO Rayquaza, with Tera boosting its Boomburst to incredible wallbreaking power while the boosted Extreme Speed patches up its middling speed, allowing it to 2HKO Scales Arceus.
Tera is also used often on the aforementioned Calm Mind Arceus formes (that are not Poison or Steel) to gain an immunity to poison, while being able to poison Imposter. I believe this is most commonly Fairyceus. Poison or Steel also provide useful resistances, such as resisting Pixi attacks.
Surprise defensive Tera is as crazy as always, allowing mons to just live an otherwise lethal hit and typically retaliate, either straight up koing the mon or neutralizing it. This is seen on choices like Tera Steel Flutter Mane (who doesn't really need the Tera boost) to prevent common revenge-killing methods like Iron Bundle, Extreme Speed, Koraidon Gigaton speedtie. This results in a lot of plays where a player brings in an offensive mon that outspeeds and can OHKO the opponent, but immediately pivots/doubles to scout for potential Tera, creating a lot of unhealthy 50/50s.
Defensive Tera is more tame than the other possibilities, but is generally an inferior choice because you are giving up the opportunity to use broken offensive Tera yourself and generally requires an early Tera because reactionary Tera's can still leave your wall 2HKOed, making it harder to surprise the opponent. Due to turning into a mono type, defensive Tera also is generally still insufficient against the offensive Tera wallbreakers if a surprise turn is not possible.
Tera is already banned in AAA, and for good reason. Terastalization already adds another layer of unpredictability, which isn't that broken in OU, but causes unnecessary problems when the metagame is already complex and difficult to predict. I think the direction that should be taken is clear.
Imposter:
Yes it is me going on Imposter again. Imposter is absolutely nuts. Providing scouting information, long term wincon, universal soft check, momentum grabber, forcing the opponent to make linear plays / reducing the amount of plays they have. This mon does it all. Sitting in top usage with a sizable gap to second while boasting an incredible 74% winrate (14W 5L). While this doesn't seem too high when there are some similar winrate mons with less usage, what 74% does not reflect is that of the 5 losses, 4 of them were Imposter mirror matches, making the matchup between a team having Imposter vs a team without Imposter a staggering 10-1. An additional stat here is that Chansey has been lead for 14/32 games, with a strong 78.57% winrate, and I highly doubt people are leading non-Imposter Chansey.
Is there anything that can be done about Imposter's dominance? As mentioned in the prior posts, banning Imposter is unfeasible because it causes way more issues. Banning Eviolite is unfeasible because you would just ban Chansey. Banning Chansey is something I have suggested before because it significantly reduces Imposter bulk, making it more difficult for it to remain healthy and granting opportunities to break through. It also provides certain mons like Eternatus a much easier time to heavily threaten Imposter with their middling power SE STABs.
However, as seen through some replays, Covert Cloak Imposter has an even better matchup into defensive presence due to blocking Mortal, Salt, Nuzzle, and Shackle. And even without Eviolite, Imposter still boasts enough bulk for certain offensive mon matchups. Should Chansey be banned, there will also be new viable longevity-increasing items being utilized, like Boots and Lefties. Banning Chansey also comes with a side effect of banning non-Imposter Chansey, though that isn't a very meta impacting mon at the moment, and if anything becomes broken because of that we can react with other tiering actions unlike if we were to full ban Imposter.
(original message is now in the shadow realm, because I accidentally deleted it. But whatever. I've said everything I needed to down below)
Edit:
One potential solution I neglected is the introduction of some kind of "imposter clause." If eviolite gets banned, it could even function as an inadvertent buff in some cases, as things like Covert Cloak + Nuzzle/Mortal Spin, Infestation, mean look, etc, will become much less valid ways of self-improofing. People would end up having to move towards different strategies to wear it down.
Ideally, such a nerf would be done as organically as possible without changing the mechanics of the actual battle, but as we've seen with "sleep clause," we can dampen a mechanic so it's not as potent, but still valid.
Perhaps Imposter can only activate X times per battle. Chansey still wouldn't be completely useless after being used a certain number of times (probably 3 or 5). It would still have great special bulk and 4 moves, just no ability. This could allow it to check mindless sweepers without being used mindlessly itself. It'd maintain its much-needed utility in the metagame and feel much less overbearing, because you don't have to both survive and threaten it, but simply make your opponent use up all their ammo, so to speak.
- another thing: banning terastalization would also remove one (though not a very good) method of imposter-proofing, so it'd be slightly harder to get the drop on an imposter. A pokemon's specific tera type is one of few differentiators, along with other context such as held items, and more obscure differentiators people have thought of like last resort + shift gear. I've seen people run double-shock tera electric water types, for example. Great for scaring out imposters even if you don't terastalize.
Leading on from Chessking's Tera notes above, we will be revisiting Tera at some point soon.
...
What we're also not sure on is how to approach tiering after this suspect if it were to end in ban.
...
Also, although it isn't implemented on Showdown yet, you're able to see the Arceus forme at team preview on cartridge. How do you think this will affect the meta?
That will definitely be a pain to reimplement and balance everything. Territorialization is so ingrained into the current meta that banning it would be a new gamemode. That being said, Terastriallization is becoming very unhealthy offensively and overwhelmingly lackluster defensively. A good course of action would be to differentiate 2 ban categories: Hard Bans (Moody, Zac-C, Eternatus-Eternamax, etc.) which should be kept out of Balanced Hackmons indefinitely until some countermeasure or balancing is added to the game, and Soft Bans (Orichalcum Pulse, Slacking, Gorilla Tactics, etc.) which are only banned due to the presence of a certain game mechanic. I would argue Miraidon is on the Hard Ban list because never before has a Pokemon been so perfectly tailored for Hackmons. Notable Soft Bans in previous generations would include Parental Bond and Gengarite which were banned due to the implications of Mega Evolutions. If Territorialization gets banned, my condolences for the council and other BHG9 players because we're going to have to go through balancing hell all over again.
Also, I've always ignored Arceus forms in the team preview and dealt with it when it was sent out. Personally, this would benefit my battles since I would have more info beforehand. Definitely healthy for the meta and can reduce the amount of guesswork for sure.
Ideally, such a nerf would be done as organically as possible without changing the mechanics of the actual battle, but as we've seen with "sleep clause," we can dampen a mechanic so it's not as potent, but still valid.
Perhaps Imposter can only activate X times per battle. Chansey still wouldn't be completely useless after being used a certain number of times (probably 3 or 5). It would still have great special bulk and 4 moves, just no ability. This could allow it to check mindless sweepers without being used mindlessly itself. It'd maintain its much-needed utility in the metagame and feel much less overbearing, because you don't have to both survive and threaten it, but simply make your opponent use up all their ammo, so to speak.
Limiting the number of times imposter can activate is not a good idea because it fundamentally changes the way Imposter works that was not intended by GameFreak. The 1-Pokemon Sleep Clause we relatively short lived in G7BH and replaced with a full sleep clause in G8BH and henceforth. However, sleep can still activate via luck as seen in Wicked Torque's 20% and Dire Claws 50% for poison/para/sleep. Hence, it can be said that physically hardcoding a limit for the number of times Imposter can activate is not the best choice since it both changes the ability too drastically to the point where it is almost a new ability (this isn't custom abilities or CAPmons) as well as go against one of the primary pillars of Balanced Hackmons which allows for creativity bound by the limits GameFreak has set (ignoring OHKO, trapping, Wonder Guard, etc which are unhealthy).
Another issue that can arise with a hardcoded Imposter limit is Imposter-baiting. Setup-sweeper Pokemon can highly encourage Imposters to switch in and "exhaust" a usage slot. For example, I run a setup Ursaluna on most teams which is meant to bait out Imposter users but then Terastriallizes to improof itself. Under an Imposter limit, I could just switch out and waste an activation. Under these conditions, Imposter may have a limit, but switching in and out will not. Another possible issue is the usage of phazing move like Dragon Tail, Whirlwind, etc. By pure chance or bad RNG, you can essentially force the opponent to switch their Imposter in against their will and exhaust another usage with no way to control it. This not only makes Imposter a drawback but also easily exploitable.
If something were to be done to "balance" Imposter (however unlikely that is), I propose an HP-cap for Imposter users. Previously, I have mentioned anything under 150 BHP would be fair game, since it gets rid of high BHP behemoths though this number is completely arbitrary. In the past, the council has favored simple bans that target one particular element so this will likely not be the case, though it is worth noting that Imposter is a complex ability with multi-faceted use cases.
One other thing I'd like to mention is that in G7BH, when I was new and actually used Imposter (eww, cringe nerd I know), I used my Imposter Chansey to Improof other imposters. By making the majority of my team special attack oriented, I could give my Imposter Chansey +SpDef/-Atk nature and switch in my Imposter Chansey in on Imposter procs. With this, I could use Block to essentially trap my opponent's Imposter and tank all their hits until they ran out of PP and struggled to death. By treating an un-Transformed Imposter as an anti-Imposter measure itself, you can essentially have 7 different Pokemon on your team and dramatically change the matchup. When in doubt, remember the 3 I's: Imposter Improofs Imposters, which I will admit will increase the amount of Imposter users, contrary to what I want.
Limiting the number of times imposter can activate is not a good idea because it fundamentally changes the way Imposter works that was not intended by GameFreak. The 1-Pokemon Sleep Clause we relatively short lived in G7BH and replaced with a full sleep clause in G8BH and henceforth. However, sleep can still activate via luck as seen in Wicked Torque's 20% and Dire Claws 50% for poison/para/sleep. Hence, it can be said that physically hardcoding a limit for the number of times Imposter can activate is not the best choice since it both changes the ability too drastically to the point where it is almost a new ability (this isn't custom abilities or CAPmons) as well as go against one of the primary pillars of Balanced Hackmons which allows for creativity bound by the limits GameFreak has set (ignoring OHKO, trapping, Wonder Guard, etc which are unhealthy).
Another issue that can arise with a hardcoded Imposter limit is Imposter-baiting. Setup-sweeper Pokemon can highly encourage Imposters to switch in and "exhaust" a usage slot. For example, I run a setup Ursaluna on most teams which is meant to bait out Imposter users but then Terastriallizes to improof itself. Under an Imposter limit, I could just switch out and waste an activation. Under these conditions, Imposter may have a limit, but switching in and out will not. Another possible issue is the usage of phazing move like Dragon Tail, Whirlwind, etc. By pure chance or bad RNG, you can essentially force the opponent to switch their Imposter in against their will and exhaust another usage with no way to control it. This not only makes Imposter a drawback but also easily exploitable.
If something were to be done to "balance" Imposter (however unlikely that is), I propose an HP-cap for Imposter users. Previously, I have mentioned anything under 150 BHP would be fair game, since it gets rid of high BHP behemoths though this number is completely arbitrary. In the past, the council has favored simple bans that target one particular element so this will likely not be the case, though it is worth noting that Imposter is a complex ability with multi-faceted use cases.
One other thing I'd like to mention is that in G7BH, when I was new and actually used Imposter (eww, cringe nerd I know), I used my Imposter Chansey to Improof other imposters. By making the majority of my team special attack oriented, I could give my Imposter Chansey +SpDef/-Atk nature and switch in my Imposter Chansey in on Imposter procs. With this, I could use Block to essentially trap my opponent's Imposter and tank all their hits until they ran out of PP and struggled to death. By treating an un-Transformed Imposter as an anti-Imposter measure itself, you can essentially have 7 different Pokemon on your team and dramatically change the matchup. When in doubt, remember the 3 I's: Imposter Improofs Imposters, which I will admit will increase the amount of Imposter users, contrary to what I want.
I agree with this assessment. The thought of banning high-HP imposter users crossed my mind, but I thought it too arbitrary to have some message saying "Pokemon with base HP above X can't use imposter." That being said, an "imposter" clause would just convolute things even more.
While I don't maintain my alarmist stance on Imposter anymore, I think it's safe to attribute its high win rate to its enormous bulk. Ditto itself is hardly talked about, because it's forced to run choice scarf unless you want a coin flip machine. Imposter Chansey is a powerful choice for any team because it can also be used wall imposters of your teamates (including mixed attackers if you want to run a ghost-type physical move).
It can be quite entertaining to construct teams in this tier, and I feel like it has a nice level of complexity relative to other tiers. It'd be somewhat sad to see imposter nerfed in any capacity, as my elaborate strategies wouldn't be as necessary, and I wouldn't be able to use Imposter myself to exploit weak points in people's teams. I still retain my initial stance on how powerful a choice it is in any team. As you mention, even if your opponent has sophisticated improofing, at worst imposter chansey can still function as a improofer/scout at relatively low risk due to its high HP. I will leave these decisions to the experts, though.
On to some more general topics:
As far as terastalization is concerned, I should also mention this: In AAA, Corviknight, for example, can run many things. Like WBB, Volt Absorb, Fluffy. It's impossible to know what they're running for sure. You can assume "this team has no fire resist, so they're probably WBB" but they may be bluffing WBB. My point is: Immunity abilities, defensive abilities, magic bounce, etc, already add one element of uncertainty to tiers where any ability is allowed. It can get to the point where you have to "predict" or assume too many things in order to make the right plays: (e.g. "are they WBB, will they tera ground?") so honestly, I don't know if anyone can make a valid defense for terastalization in a tier that's already so chaotic.
I thought this would be interesting: light ball pikachu. Not a good strategy, but a funny strategy. Supposing any balancing action is taken against high-HP imposters, some people may start using light ball pikachu. No switch-in potential whatsoever, but it could decide some matches on a coin flip.
I thought this would be interesting: light ball pikachu. Not a good strategy, but a funny strategy. Supposing any balancing action is taken against high-HP imposters, some people may start using light ball pikachu. No switch-in potential whatsoever, but it could decide some matches on a coin flip.
Light Ball Pikachu does have a history thanks to the doubled damage. However, despite having the same ability as Imposter Chansey, it does a completely different thing (being a late-game reverse sweeper rather than a setup check and general utility option). The main drawback with Imposter Pikachu is that, given its abysmal HP and difficulty with Speed-ties, it practically mandates the entire team supporting it with paralysis in order to pull off a sweep. This has always been an issue, but SV presents 2 new hurdles; the first is that spamming Paralysis conflicts with Toxic, which is a very desirable thing to have to wear down walls and create situations where reverse-sweeping is feasible. Second is that setup wincons are a lot bulkier and/or have incredibly hard self-Imposter-proofs (stuff like Tidy Up Groudon, Calm Mind Arceus, and the like), meaning Light Ball Imposter can struggle to get any use out of them.
As for banning anything Imposter related, there's basically no good options even if it were problematic. Banning Chansey has the least impact (but a massive one none-the-less; people seriously overrate Cloak Imposter, so the difference is huge), Eviolite ban will never happen, and banning both blobs or Imposter do basically the same thing. Non-Blob Imposter users (that aim to do the same high-HP thing) will be completely awful no matter the item you put on them.
Synopsis: Guts Lando + Mold Breaker Groudon Offense
A team easy enough to pilot with positioning. Double ground core breaks past most fur coaters with toxic on Groudon or tera-ing Lando after set up, especially with blocking healing from sap in the long run with Chansey and Bundle, and can win from there, while Bundle has good synergy with Lando and Groudon, Bundle beating Corvis, while Lando and Groudon overwhelm most scales mons that wall Bundle. Tera's mostly reserved for Bundle, and Groudon, while Landorus can also use the mechanic assuming the opposing team doesn't have imposter. Depending on the MU, Arc-Ghost can Tera to clean with Judge
Weaknesses:-
Team doesn't have that good of a MU against ray, mostly depending on positioning/revenge KO-ing with Bundle after espeed, or tera-ing zac and paralyzing/spirit breaking.
Koraidon MU with sap blocking and Flutter mane MU might be a bit hard to deal with, esp considering tera, however both can get RKO'd by Bundle.
Both Lando and Groudon depend on setting up before being able to clean up against more offensive teams.
Arceus ghost is pretty self-explanatory. I love running triple arrows + no retreat as I get a speed boost and can troll Ice Scales with flinches. Competitive + Jungle Healing is funny, but you could also do Good as Gold + Parting Shot / Recover / etc
is a good setup sweeper. I run torch song and amnesia to improof it. If the special attack is already high, and an imposter switches in, you potentially get even more setup. The one drawback is if they get a critical hit at +6, you're a goner. Morning Sun + Desolate Land could make for a workable special wall, and I chose desolate land to dissuade any . Poison+Fire typing resists pixilate 4x, which is also nice.
In case you do go down, they won't be able to do a thing to , who also happens to be somewhat imposter-proof due to the fact that Chansey has much more HP. Not running defog for spikes, though, but if they stay in and set spikes they risk losing a large chunk of HP.
is basically just the physical wall. He can also deal some pretty insane damage with Body Press + Cotton Guard. Might want something that resists Aerilate instead, though.
Classic Imposter with a moveset basically just designed to clown Iron Moth should it somehow break loose.
with Prankster. Steel-type to resist the 3 "-ate" abilities. Considered to wall any arc-ghost set, but I thought it was a pretty convenient monster to have since it deals well with my zama.
Arceus ghost is pretty self-explanatory. I love running triple arrows + no retreat as I get a speed boost and can troll Ice Scales with flinches. Competitive + Jungle Healing is funny, but you could also do Good as Gold + Parting Shot / Recover / etc
is a good setup sweeper. I run torch song and amnesia to improof it. If the special attack is already high, and an imposter switches in, you potentially get even more setup. The one drawback is if they get a critical hit at +6, you're a goner. Morning Sun + Desolate Land could make for a workable special wall, and I chose desolate land to dissuade any . Poison+Fire typing resists pixilate 4x, which is also nice.
In case you do go down, they won't be able to do a thing to , who also happens to be somewhat imposter-proof due to the fact that Chansey has much more HP. Not running defog for spikes, though, but if they stay in and set spikes they risk losing a large chunk of HP.
is basically just the physical wall. He can also deal some pretty insane damage with Body Press + Cotton Guard. Might want something that resists Aerilate instead, though.
Classic Imposter with a moveset basically just designed to clown Iron Moth should it somehow break loose.
with Prankster. Steel-type to resist the 3 "-ate" abilities. Considered to wall any arc-ghost set, but I thought it was a pretty convenient monster to have since it deals well with my zama.
The team looks pretty cool but how do you stop -Ate mons? Ray and Enam just click Boomburst and have to predict once in to Tera Steel Imp. You also have nothing that prevents Flutter Mane from spamming Astral Barrage so I would recommend replacing Ghold with something that can take Astral. Opposing Simple Arc-Ghost matchup also seems bad as you don’t have a anwser to it except D Bond from Ghold. And I would suggest being careful around Bundle as well since Imp is your only switchin and it can get worn down. Outside of that it looks good.
How to use:
Your priority should be getting the sun up to support Arceus-Ice as much as possible. You have plenty of ways to slowpivot into it, like Teleport Chansey. Try not to tera stuff because Iceceus really needs the power from tera. Tidy Up Giratina, Rapid Spin Corviknight and Court Change Dondozo is usually sufficient to stave off hazards, which severely cripple Iceceus' ability to get in and wreck stuff. Chansey is your setup control + general spdef, Dondozo is a generic Fur Coat, and Corviknight isn't the bulkiest RegenVest, but it's needed to check Rayquaza.
Most walls fold very hard to Iceceus, given that they either need to eat 2 V-Creates, or 1 AND the coverage. But, if it fails, Turboblaze Koraidon can be used as a backup, having the ability to reliably break down Fur Coat Fireceus (the only mon that really stands to Iceceus long term), and if need be, bait in passive stuff (such as Fur Coat Zacian) so Iceceus can heal.
(I forgot to mention this but Iceceus is faster than every meta threat even at -1 in sun, so use it to revenge kill threats.)
Other Options:
- You technically can use another Drought user other than Giratina, but I wanted Gira because it's the mon with the highest raw bulk atm.
- Different Tera types can be utilized to better combat different threats in an emergency (for example, I use Tera Poison on Chansey to reliably Haze away boosts from CM Poisonceus without getting poisoned myself, but you can use Tera Fairy to have a better MU into Eternatus and Palkia.) Just don't change Iceceus' otherwise the effectiveness reduce significantly because you either can't selfproof or do no damage.
Weaknesses:
- Simple + No Retreat Ghostceus can be a big problem, especially with your setup control weak to Fighting, and Corviknight taking 50%. If sun is up and Chansey is no longer needed, sacrifice it to remove boosts and bring in Iceceus to revenge kill.
- Rayquaza can revenge kill Iceceus easily with Extreme Speed and the lowered defenses from V-Create, however RegenVest Corviknight should stave non V-Create variants off.
- Prankster Parting Shot spam can be annoying, but I personally haven't found this to be a problem, but you can use a Dark type as the Drought user instead.
How to use:
Your priority should be getting the sun up to support Arceus-Ice as much as possible. You have plenty of ways to slowpivot into it, like Teleport Chansey. Try not to tera stuff because Iceceus really needs the power from tera. Tidy Up Giratina, Rapid Spin Corviknight and Court Change Dondozo is usually sufficient to stave off hazards, which severely cripple Iceceus' ability to get in and wreck stuff. Chansey is your setup control + general spdef, Dondozo is a generic Fur Coat, and Corviknight isn't the bulkiest RegenVest, but it's needed to check Rayquaza.
Most walls fold very hard to Iceceus, given that they either need to eat 2 V-Creates, or 1 AND the coverage. But, if it fails, Turboblaze Koraidon can be used as a backup, having the ability to reliably break down Fur Coat Fireceus (the only mon that really stands to Iceceus long term), and if need be, bait in passive stuff (such as Fur Coat Zacian) so Iceceus can heal.
(I forgot to mention this but Iceceus is faster than every meta threat even at -1 in sun, so use it to revenge kill threats.)
Other Options:
- You technically can use another Drought user other than Giratina, but I wanted Gira because it's the mon with the highest raw bulk atm.
- Different Tera types can be utilized to better combat different threats in an emergency (for example, I use Tera Poison on Chansey to reliably Haze away boosts from CM Poisonceus without getting poisoned myself, but you can use Tera Fairy to have a better MU into Eternatus and Palkia.) Just don't change Iceceus' otherwise the effectiveness reduce significantly because you either can't selfproof or do no damage.
Weaknesses:
- Simple + No Retreat Ghostceus can be a big problem, especially with your setup control weak to Fighting, and Corviknight taking 50%. If sun is up and Chansey is no longer needed, sacrifice it to remove boosts and bring in Iceceus to revenge kill.
- Rayquaza can revenge kill Iceceus easily with Extreme Speed and the lowered defenses from V-Create, however RegenVest Corviknight should stave non V-Create variants off.
- Prankster Parting Shot spam can be annoying, but I personally haven't found this to be a problem, but you can use a Dark type as the Drought user instead.
- I'm assuming Arc-ice is reliant on terastalizing in order to imposter proof, given the fact that it has coverage to delete every character in your team. This seems like an unhealthy dependence.
- Giratina has good bulk, but its defensive typing is pretty bad. Also, in this meta, since every pokemon can max out all EVs, the importance of raw base stats is diminished. This makes characters with better typings but worse bulk more powerful choices in my opinion.
- Overall, I think the team has questionable integrity against imposter. For example, if you bring in dondozo to court change, what's stopping them from bringing in their imposter and court-changing back? Knock off? I suppose it's nice to chip down the Imposter, but this team seems to just take little pokes and jabs at it rather than have a cohesive structure that would not only stave off imposter, but potentially leverage an imposter switch-in to your advantage (e.g. self-walling set-up sweeper).
I suggest leveraging natural type resistances, immunities, abilities, etc and picking moves carefully to ensure the internal integrity of the team. Offensive potential is good, but that doesn't mean much if your own team members are turned on you and rip you to shreds
The team looks pretty cool but how do you stop -Ate mons? Ray and Enam just click Boomburst and have to predict once in to Tera Steel Imp. You also have nothing that prevents Flutter Mane from spamming Astral Barrage so I would recommend replacing Ghold with something that can take Astral. Opposing Simple Arc-Ghost matchup also seems bad as you don’t have a anwser to it except D Bond from Ghold. And I would suggest being careful around Bundle as well since Imp is your only switchin and it can get worn down. Outside of that it looks good.
Yeah, I considered replacing . I just don't see many good options, to be honest. I need a ghost type to wall , in case he gets turned on me. As far as astral barrage is concerned, eviolite would be a decent choice, but then i'd have to deal with the potential of a +6 body press. would hold up against astral barrage, but then I'd lose valuable steel-typing that lets me resist pixilate from flutter mane, and gigaton hammer as well. could be used as a last resort proofer, but he can't really switch in, unfortunately.
Not sure what bundle carries, but if it has ground coverage, then yeah. My wouldn't be able to do much.
It can be pretty difficult to build a team that not only has a coherent structure against imposter, but also addresses as many other threats as possible. I suppose that's what keeps teambuilding interesting.
- I'm assuming Arc-ice is reliant on terastalizing in order to imposter proof, given the fact that it has coverage to delete every character in your team. This seems like an unhealthy dependence.
- Giratina has good bulk, but its defensive typing is pretty bad. Also, in this meta, since every pokemon can max out all EVs, the importance of raw base stats is diminished. This makes characters with better typings but worse bulk more powerful choices in my opinion.
- Overall, I think the team has questionable integrity against imposter. For example, if you bring in dondozo to court change, what's stopping them from bringing in their imposter and court-changing back? Knock off? I suppose it's nice to chip down the Imposter, but this team seems to just take little pokes and jabs at it rather than have a cohesive structure that would not only stave off imposter, but potentially leverage an imposter switch-in to your advantage (e.g. self-walling set-up sweeper).
I suggest leveraging natural type resistances, immunities, abilities, etc and picking moves carefully to ensure the internal integrity of the team. Offensive potential is good, but that doesn't mean much if your own team members are turned on you and rip you to shreds
It is true that Iceceus is highly dependant on tera, but, so are most things in the meta rn. Koraidon surely cannot 3HKO/2HKO Fur Coat users without Tera, Iron Bundle fails to even put a major dent in Dialga-O, and Rayquaza would get permanently crippled by Arceus if not for tera. In a way, you should see Iceceus as just another potent, tera-relying wallbreaker.
About Giratina, as I said, you can easily change it to another Drought user to fit your needs. Ting-Lu can give you a Prankster immunity, Zacian for the natural speed control, the list goes on.
As for Imposter copying Dondozo, I suppose I wouldn't actually deal any damage - but I don't need that, considering I actually deal no damage before I bring in the big guns anyways. And, Imposter gets punished heavily by potentially removing an important item - be it Eviolite, Covert Cloak or something else. If you really hate it for some reason, feel free to switch Knock Off for Toxic, and improof with Corviknight.
It is true that Iceceus is highly dependant on tera, but, so are most things in the meta rn. Koraidon surely cannot 3HKO/2HKO Fur Coat users without Tera, Iron Bundle fails to even put a major dent in Dialga-O, and Rayquaza would get permanently crippled by Arceus if not for tera. In a way, you should see Iceceus as just another potent, tera-relying wallbreaker.
Throughout the past few weeks of OMPL, it has become clear that Baton Pass does not have reasonable counterplay. Setup strategies are overall much stronger this gen, with prankster haze struggling due to 8 recover pp, tera adding another unpredictable factor to consider, and most crucially the removal of Topsy Turvy and Spectral Thief. With these limited anti-setup tools, Baton Pass in current gen BH is just about as uncompetitive as any other tier, and so it was unanimously deemed banworthy by the council. Passing substitutes, stats, and more to sweepers tailor-made to beat imposter and prankster haze is simply too effective against too many otherwise sound teams.
A terastriallization-abusing meme set that I put no thought into. With attack boosting nature, Band/Beak, 120BP Flying type move and Gale Wings, this set primary excels in catching people off guard. The presence of Terastriallization has given Gale Wings an indirect buff by making Flying type moves even stronger. Headlong Rush/V-Create for counters, though not reliable. Overall, pretty gimmicky set that relies on pairing it with the Dragon Ascent, fun but not competitively viable.
Initially, I believed Imposter to be a very uncompetitive strategy. I repeatedly implied that it was basically just a "stronger" version of whatever it copied. As others have said before me, this is mistaken for a couple of reasons:
1) While Imposter does possess higher HP and defensive stats, it is forced to sacrifice its item slot for Eviolite to work effectively. If you opt not to use Eviolite, you'll lose a significant part of the reason Imposter is worthwhile. You'll also be running a different item (Covert Cloak, Shed Shell, Leftovers) that may stop some imposter-proofing methods, but opens up new problems.
2) Imposter's moves only get 5 PP each switch-in. While you can sometimes defensively PP stall with this, it makes you susceptible to trapping strategies, and grants opportunity for self-wallers to set up, and you'll eventually be forced out unless you like using struggle.
3) It shapes sets, and forces "suboptimalities" by encouraging self-countering strategies, but its use becomes very questionable in high-ladder, where many times attempting to switch in Imposter may just result in you outright losing your Imposter, if not the entire game.
There are also many simple methods you can use to counter imposter without heavily compromising your build:
1) Imprison + Haze: A potent combination for a sweeper, but it also has the added benefit of being 100% imposter-proof.
2) Leech Seed (Exploiting HP): Can basically be thrown on any defensive wall or self-walling sweeper to improof it. Since Imposter has higher HP, you'll usually gain +12%, and they'll lose 6% after both leech seeds, allowing you to chip away at them if they lack Leftovers. However, you'll have to sacrifice a recovery move to make this work properly.
3) Type Resistances / Immunity Abilities (Exploiting PP): Switching to a character who is completely immune or highly resistant to attacks will basically force Imposters to switch out, since they can't do anything.
> For example, I've used a Speed Boost Palkia with Torch Song, Steam Eruption, and Leech Seed. Any Imposter will be completely powerless to stop me as it slowly loses HP and I gain special attack. Another example is Victory Dance + Water Absorb Palafin.
> You can also have something you switch into an imposter. For example, a Corviknight with Well-Baked Body to wall something with Ground/Poison moves. Or an Ice scales user capable of resisting all your attacks, etc.
I've considerably rethought my stance on it. By running Imposter, you're sacrificing a team slot that could be used to address other threats in the metagame, and you're sacrificing it for a wild card that has already been prepared for in advance. You might find it harder to deal with unhinged hyper-offense teams that just blindly select powerful moves and abilities, but those are practically a joke due to the possibility of Imposter, and most people opt for more specific but still powerful sets that don't suffer from those issues.
Given that it's not the mindless powerhouse I initially saw it as, I still wonder from time to time what's stopping it from being banned simply for the sake of simplicity, as it's not a very strong character and just seemingly convolutes teambuilding. That is, I question its necessity. There are other checks, for example, for powerful setup sweepers (Prankster + Haze, Ice Scales, Fur Coat, Unaware). Could there not be a different route this tier took to attain equilibrium that doesn't involve irritating new players with a strategy that seems so mindless? One where different setup-enabling moves and abilities were banned and scrutinized, while Imposter was deemed "too arbitrary" to include? Perhaps, but Imposter itself is hardly broken and has a very loose grip on well-constructed teams.
It's true that Imposter itself is the single most influential ability when it comes to shaping teambuilding, but the myriad of other threats you have to address subverts any idea that Imposter is the primary reason for the complexity of the tier. Imposter can be used mindlessly to counter-sweep inexperienced players or poke holes in their teams, but the truth is that's far from the only culprit in a tier this liberal.
I can understand why Imposter was banned in AAA, where forcing countermeasures would be extremely imposing. I suppose it opens up an important dialog related to Terastalization I didn't consider fully. Terastalization obviously creates a lot of extra variability, but in a tier that is supposed to be chaotic to begin with, would a ban on Terastalization be warranted? How chaotic is too chaotic for Balanced Hackmons?
Hi everybody, i am new here and just created this account mainly with the purpose of sharing my thoughts on one of the most apparently controversial topics around this meta: Imposter. "A disease that grows short of killing its host" cit. is what i would call it as somebody who always enjoyed other metagames, expecially this one and AAA both of which am particularly fond of as alternative crazy metagames to escape the boredom and staleness of OU/regular play. Only thing i always really couldnt stand about this OM, in this and previous generations, is the bullshit we all know as Imposter. Now i always hated that ability to my guts in Nat Dex Ubers/AG (when that was an an actually fun ladder without stuff like revivecats) where pretty much everybody ran ditto because i ever since always deemed it to be extremely stupid and uncompetitive, given how not only does it singlehandedly invalidate an entire playstyle/strategy (setup), but it also nullifies an advantage you probably earned with smart play and positioning turning it into a liability and making it your opponent's, like "oh so you actually managed to get 2 dragon dances off with good predictions and smart play? Too bad i can send this scarfed blob in and your advantage becomes mine because fuck you idiot". That ability is stupid already as is in regular play on a 35 hp mon and dont "just build your team better bro, you can make a team that can setup and counter imposter" because
1)thats a lot easier said than done
2)even if i managed to (and i did back then), i would be left with very few viable options that may not be optimal in a scenario where oppo doesnt run imposter, therefore making this a classic example of "forced warping in teambuilding around a certain ability/mon that makes you run otherwise suboptimal sets just to win against/not automatically lose against said mon/ability" which last i checked is very much convergent to the definition of "unhealthy shit". Some may say "just dont run heavy setup bro" but what if that is the playstyle i like? Should i not use it because of the existence of a single mon/ability? Or being forced into a handful of options i may not even like because of it? Imposter is just stupid, wouldve been fair and a cool niche signature ability for ditto if it didnt copy boosts, but copying boosts is really stupid imo. Anyway, the point here is, an ability that imo is already pretty stupid and fairly uncompetitive in regular play is bound to be fucking ridicolous in a meta with literal hacked mons where everything can run anything, expecially since one of the very few drawbacks of its usage in regular play (very low hp mon) can be turned into an asset with mons like eviolte chansey, blissey and any other sky high hp mon. Now not only can you effectively become a much much bulkier version of your opponent while your most optimal set isnt a choice locked one which by itself is nuts, but it goes on to be even more valuable in hackmons where everything can potentially run anything, as it gives away your opponent's set and ability providing you with incredibly useful knowledge you normally wouldnt get access to (or would have to put some of your 6 asses/12 cheeks on the line to scout). The advantage that an high hp imposter mon on its own gives you over an opponent who doesnt run one is so ridicolous it barely needs to be spelled out more than other users already did in recent posts, and i experienced it myself today as i played 2 games against users that didnt run one, which felt so unfair that i probably wouldve felt better winning an arm wrestling match against a 5yo. Since running an high hp imposter is so crazy good, you HAVE to run one if you want your team to be able to compete, basically making you work with 5 mons in the builder, the imposter mon and then the rest of your team (which feels very much like a "maxx c" situation in ocg yugioh for anybody who may be familiar with that). Now if that isnt, unanimously agreeable upon as, an overcentralizing, unhealthy, meta-warping and teambuilding constraining presence we have here then a functioning brain holding audience certainly isnt either, and to address the "we know imposter is stupid and broken but if we ban it we have to also ban the stupid shit it keeps in check" argument, i advocate that yes, it would definetly be preferable to ban all the stupid shit period, rather than keeping some stupid shit because it makes other stupid shit run less rampant, the argument of "we cant ban X because then we would have to ban Y and Z" has been proven as stupid and obsolete many times before in all sorts of metas, with the best solution being "ban X, Y and Z and whatever may arise as problematic after".
My proposal for an updated banlist in addition to the current one would be:
Abilities: Imposter, Simple, Speed Boost (dont really need to elaborate on Simple if Imposter is banned, and i shouldnt on Speed Boost either)
Moves: No Retreat, Shift Gear, Victory Dance (its special equivalent is banned so it only stands to reason that this should be as well), Nuzzle (braindead extremely spammable move with 0 drawback and/or counterplay outside of immunities and covert cloak literally damaging thunder wave with 100 accuracy that chips opponent and bypasses any defensive abilitiy, paralysis with the 25% free turn is already pretty cheap and uncompetitive of a status as is, dont see any reason to keep more and easier ways to spread it), Transform (to prevent prankster chansey from becoming imposter at home), Boomburst (a 140 (168 with -ates) BP special move with 16 PP and no drawback cant be stupid to give to literally any mon right? Right??), Astral Barrage (strong ghost coverage is really good but 120 BP no drawback ghost coverage? Now thats just sweet thank god we dont have any strong ghost special attackers that could abuse it, do we?)
I sincerly think a more fun, creative and diverse metagame would emerge from this changes and expecially Imposter's stinking ashes, but then again thats just my opinion i wanted to share with yall, feel free to make fun of me or turn this into the next copypasta, also i apologize for the long poem and any syntax mistakes i may have made as english is not my native language, wish you all a good evening :)
Now i always hated that ability to my guts in Nat Dex Ubers/AG (when that was an an actually fun ladder without stuff like revivecats) where pretty much everybody ran ditto because i ever since always deemed it to be extremely stupid and uncompetitive, given how not only does it singlehandedly invalidate an entire playstyle/strategy (setup), but it also nullifies an advantage you probably earned with smart play and positioning turning it into a liability and making it your opponent's, like "oh so you actually managed to get 2 dragon dances off with good predictions and smart play? Too bad i can send this scarfed blob in and your advantage becomes mine because fuck you idiot".
If what you're referring to as "setup" is 6 mons that attempt to auto-win, that is not a legitimate playstyle. Even in metas like OU, AG, etc, you typically at least see dual screens or a hazard lead in order to make the team not collapse immediately. You would do well to learn from their approach here: though these strategies might have BH-specific flaws (specifically Court Change beating screens and hazard removal having increased accessibility), their primary idea of supporting the setup idea without directly participating in it is likely to give you better results than otherwise. They also both do very well against Imposter specifically (screens mean you can 1v1 them easier, hazards wear them down really fast if they have to keep coming in).
Like whenever I see someone complain about what Imposter does to offense, the offense in question always seems to be 1) suboptimal and 2) hyper-dedicated on not allowing the opponent to play the game at all. Reminds me of Gen 7 species spam where you clicked Shell Smash every turn and hoped they didn't carry Spectral. I imagine nowadays you run Simple Nasty Plot/No Retreat, still lose to an algorithm that randomly picks between clicking Nuzzle and Dragon Tail, and then say you outplayed people who made the dire mistake of clicking Parting Shot into your Good as Gold wincon.
Just get creative. Aurora Veil is cool, weird plate Judgment ideas are cool, unconventional anti-status (hello Misty Terrain?) are cool, -ate Explosion and Final Gambit are cool, weird imposter-proofing (once saw Helmet Population Bomb Meloetta-P recently) is cool. Hell, this is actually easier than ever before because Tera lets you get away with so many mons that would otherwise be ridiculous (VDance Power Trip Calyrex-I for example). This gen has handed you the strongest anti-Imposter tool we've gotten since Shedinja on a silver platter, yet you are not taking it?
Hi everybody, i am new here and just created this account mainly with the purpose of sharing my thoughts on one of the most apparently controversial topics around this meta: Imposter. "A disease that grows short of killing its host" cit. is what i would call it as somebody who always enjoyed other metagames, expecially this one and AAA both of which am particularly fond of as alternative crazy metagames to escape the boredom and staleness of OU/regular play. Only thing i always really couldnt stand about this OM, in this and previous generations, is the bullshit we all know as Imposter. Now i always hated that ability to my guts in Nat Dex Ubers/AG (when that was an an actually fun ladder without stuff like revivecats) where pretty much everybody ran ditto because i ever since always deemed it to be extremely stupid and uncompetitive, given how not only does it singlehandedly invalidate an entire playstyle/strategy (setup), but it also nullifies an advantage you probably earned with smart play and positioning turning it into a liability and making it your opponent's, like "oh so you actually managed to get 2 dragon dances off with good predictions and smart play? Too bad i can send this scarfed blob in and your advantage becomes mine because fuck you idiot". That ability is stupid already as is in regular play on a 35 hp mon and dont "just build your team better bro, you can make a team that can setup and counter imposter" because
1)thats a lot easier said than done
2)even if i managed to (and i did back then), i would be left with very few viable options that may not be optimal in a scenario where oppo doesnt run imposter, therefore making this a classic example of "forced warping in teambuilding around a certain ability/mon that makes you run otherwise suboptimal sets just to win against/not automatically lose against said mon/ability" which last i checked is very much convergent to the definition of "unhealthy shit". Some may say "just dont run heavy setup bro" but what if that is the playstyle i like? Should i not use it because of the existence of a single mon/ability? Or being forced into a handful of options i may not even like because of it? Imposter is just stupid, wouldve been fair and a cool niche signature ability for ditto if it didnt copy boosts, but copying boosts is really stupid imo. Anyway, the point here is, an ability that imo is already pretty stupid and fairly uncompetitive in regular play is bound to be fucking ridicolous in a meta with literal hacked mons where everything can run anything, expecially since one of the very few drawbacks of its usage in regular play (very low hp mon) can be turned into an asset with mons like eviolte chansey, blissey and any other sky high hp mon. Now not only can you effectively become a much much bulkier version of your opponent while your most optimal set isnt a choice locked one which by itself is nuts, but it goes on to be even more valuable in hackmons where everything can potentially run anything, as it gives away your opponent's set and ability providing you with incredibly useful knowledge you normally wouldnt get access to (or would have to put some of your 6 asses/12 cheeks on the line to scout). The advantage that an high hp imposter mon on its own gives you over an opponent who doesnt run one is so ridicolous it barely needs to be spelled out more than other users already did in recent posts, and i experienced it myself today as i played 2 games against users that didnt run one, which felt so unfair that i probably wouldve felt better winning an arm wrestling match against a 5yo. Since running an high hp imposter is so crazy good, you HAVE to run one if you want your team to be able to compete, basically making you work with 5 mons in the builder, the imposter mon and then the rest of your team (which feels very much like a "maxx c" situation in ocg yugioh for anybody who may be familiar with that). Now if that isnt, unanimously agreeable upon as, an overcentralizing, unhealthy, meta-warping and teambuilding constraining presence we have here then a functioning brain holding audience certainly isnt either, and to address the "we know imposter is stupid and broken but if we ban it we have to also ban the stupid shit it keeps in check" argument, i advocate that yes, it would definetly be preferable to ban all the stupid shit period, rather than keeping some stupid shit because it makes other stupid shit run less rampant, the argument of "we cant ban X because then we would have to ban Y and Z" has been proven as stupid and obsolete many times before in all sorts of metas, with the best solution being "ban X, Y and Z and whatever may arise as problematic after".
My proposal for an updated banlist in addition to the current one would be:
Abilities: Imposter, Simple, Speed Boost (dont really need to elaborate on Simple if Imposter is banned, and i shouldnt on Speed Boost either)
Moves: No Retreat, Shift Gear, Victory Dance (its special equivalent is banned so it only stands to reason that this should be as well), Nuzzle (braindead extremely spammable move with 0 drawback and/or counterplay outside of immunities and covert cloak literally damaging thunder wave with 100 accuracy that chips opponent and bypasses any defensive abilitiy, paralysis with the 25% free turn is already pretty cheap and uncompetitive of a status as is, dont see any reason to keep more and easier ways to spread it), Transform (to prevent prankster chansey from becoming imposter at home), Boomburst (a 140 (168 with -ates) BP special move with 16 PP and no drawback cant be stupid to give to literally any mon right? Right??), Astral Barrage (strong ghost coverage is really good but 120 BP no drawback ghost coverage? Now thats just sweet thank god we dont have any strong ghost special attackers that could abuse it, do we?)
I sincerly think a more fun, creative and diverse metagame would emerge from this changes and expecially Imposter's stinking ashes, but then again thats just my opinion i wanted to share with yall, feel free to make fun of me or turn this into the next copypasta, also i apologize for the long poem and any syntax mistakes i may have made as english is not my native language, wish you all a good evening :)
In a similar vein, I feel like we should deal with switching too
Here's a replay of someone completely beating me by just switching around. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1892386689
The spirit of Pokémon is to battle it out to your hearts content, throwing moves at each other until one of you go down, and switching allows you to completely ruin that, resulting in a mere husk of this game, one where trainers and Pokémon, which are supposed to be united, instead have to be worried about puny mind games.
One potential solution I neglect instead of outright banning switching is some kind of switching clause. If switching gets banned, it could even function as an indirect buff to stall, with mons like toxapex and garganacl being even more oppressive to offensive mons, with lesser ways to bypass type resistances and exploit weaknesses
Ideally, such a nerf would be done as organically as possible without changing the actual mechanics of the battle, but as we’ve seen with sleep clause, we can dampen a mechanic so it’s not as potent, but still valid.
Similar to imposter, switching is even worse in that regard, and that's why I feel both it and imposter need to get the boot.
In a similar vein, I feel like we should deal with switching too
Here's a replay of someone completely beating me by just switching around. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1892386689
The spirit of Pokémon is to battle it out to your hearts content, throwing moves at each other until one of you go down, and switching allows you to completely ruin that, resulting in a mere husk of this game, one where trainers and Pokémon, which are supposed to be united, instead have to be worried about puny mind games.
One potential solution I neglect instead of outright banning switching is some kind of switching clause. If switching gets banned, it could even function as an indirect buff to stall, with mons like toxapex and garganacl being even more oppressive to offensive mons, with lesser ways to bypass type resistances and exploit weaknesses
Ideally, such a nerf would be done as organically as possible without changing the actual mechanics of the battle, but as we’ve seen with sleep clause, we can dampen a mechanic so it’s not as potent, but still valid.
Similar to imposter, switching is even worse in that regard, and that's why I feel both it and imposter need to get the boot.
Torally agree with you man, switching is a very sacky mechanic and should only be allowed in specific occasions, for instance, the switch from class clown to someone who tries to elaborate a serious counterargument would be apprecciated here, k ur classmates all got a laugh at the expense of the poor noob who likes "hehehe dragon dance go brr" with no team structure or strategy in mind that knows nothing about the meta, now i would like to point out also for the dude above (for which i bear no grudge really man i thank you for kindly answering without blatantly making fun of me) that i indeed got creative with screen supports and countermeasures of all kind in my setup sweepers teams, so much so that i got pretty high on the ladder playing ubers/AG (1800~ at some point), won many games against dittos exactly because of the creative countermeasures i came up with, even matched with the ladder's top player once and won with extreme evo eevee lol, so i wouldnt exactly regard myself as a low ladder player with no clue, and yes i still thought/think imposter is stupid and no effort universal setup check/revenge kill, just because something has counters and can be played around doesnt mean its not still fundamentally stupid, which ill reiterate, i believe imposter to be. Anywhow, my rant on imposter in another metagame isnt relevant now, were talking about imposter in BH and the point i am trying to make here is very simple: imposter is clearly an overcentralizing and warping presence in this metagame, so much so that every team that wants to be good has to use a slot for it because it would be foolish not to do so considering how good it is, basically limiting the builder to 5 mons only in this OM, id like you to debate these points and prove them wrong but i doubt anybody whos played this OM would disagree. Now many would concour that something that displays such characteristics (overcentralization, meta warping, excessive teambuilding redundance) is generally deemed unhealthy for a metagame and something the game would be better off without, and i would like you, or a mod or whoever disagrees with my take to enlighten me as to why this OM would be worse than it currently is with imposter banned and the banlist i proposed, not because of some manhiac entitlement that my word is gospel and whoever is in charge should heed it, but because in my, perhaps blind and faulty logic, i really cant concieve how could someone think otherwise, like do you really like imposter and the lack of diversity it causes in teambuilding that much, or do you just like simple no retreat/shift gear so much that you would rather keep imposter than having to ban that? If i am the fool here, please try to seriously enlighten me as to why is that, only making jokes and no counterarguments doesnt serve to disprove the point someone has made.
I'm not sure if you're trolling with these snide remarks and run-on sentences, but I made your exact argument just recently, when I was new to the tier. Imposter is definitely the most influential ability when it comes to teambuilding, but it's not a "must-pick." It's not even good half the time if your opponent knows what they're doing.
The counter-measures are somewhat arbitrary, yes, but Imposter is not a significant problem because ALL valid teams are constrained by it. I agree that if Imposter were banned, the tier may become more appealing to beginners. But if you actually take the time to read the prior posts people have made in this forum, you might learn that Imposter isn't the omnipotent god you're making it out to be. Any metagame has threats you need to prepare for, and BH is just chaotic.
i got pretty high on the ladder playing ubers/AG (1800~ at some point), won many games against dittos exactly because of the creative countermeasures i came up with, even matched with the ladder's top player once and won with extreme evo eevee lol, so i wouldnt exactly regard myself as a low ladder player with no clue
This is BH, not Ubers or AG. It's fundamentally a much more chaotic tier, so there are many things to account for. Imposter-proofing is the foundation of a good team, but it's far from the only layer of complexity in this tier. Trust me: If you're as "creative" as you claim to be, you'll come to like the idea of Imposter-proofing. Also, nobody's stopping you from using it yourself.
i really cant concieve how could someone think otherwise, like do you really like imposter and the lack of diversity it causes in teambuilding that much, or do you just like simple no retreat/shift gear so much that you would rather keep imposter than having to ban that? If i am the fool here, please try to seriously enlighten me as to why is that, only making jokes and no counterarguments doesnt serve to disprove the point someone has made.
All the rationale you demand, arguments and counter-arguments, can be found on this thread. Additionally, there are sample submissions and no shortage of explanations for anyone looking to get into BH teambuilding. With all due respect, you should take some time to understand the tier more deeply, because any properly built team is not going to be "revenge-killed" or "universally checked" by Imposter.
with flinches. Competitive + Jungle Healing is funny, but you could also do Good as Gold + Parting Shot / Recover / etc
is a good setup sweeper. I run torch song and amnesia to improof it. If the special attack is already high, and an imposter switches in, you potentially get even more setup. The one drawback is if they get a critical hit at +6, you're a goner. Morning Sun + Desolate Land could make for a workable special wall, and I chose desolate land to dissuade any 
. Poison+Fire typing resists pixilate 4x, which is also nice.
, who also happens to be somewhat imposter-proof due to the fact that Chansey has much more HP. Not running defog for spikes, though, but if they stay in and set spikes they risk losing a large chunk of HP.
is basically just the physical wall. He can also deal some pretty insane damage with Body Press + Cotton Guard. Might want something that resists Aerilate instead, though.
with a moveset basically just designed to clown Iron Moth should it somehow break loose.
with Prankster. Steel-type to resist the 3 "-ate" abilities. Considered 
to wall any arc-ghost set, but I thought it was a pretty convenient monster to have since it deals well with my zama.
would be a decent choice, but then i'd have to deal with the potential of a +6 body press. 
could be used as a last resort 
