why ban quiver dance without banning victory dance, seems lopsided and illogical, there are untold answers to quiver dance, we have assault vest regen, prankster, ice scales and unaware which no one seems to realize exists, and the fact that it was quick banned is even worse, instead quiver dance judgement spam will just be replaced with victory dance insert move here, seems most people were mad at arceus, but arceus has 120 stats across the board so a victory dance set is basically identicalHi! We have a few announcements.
First, Tera suspect ended in DNB, you can see the votes here.
Secondly... Zacian-Crowned and Quiver Dance are banned from BH!
Tea Guzzler quojova Chessking345 XxLazzerpenguinxX TTTech Zacian-Crowned Ban Ban Ban Do Not Ban Ban Quiver Dance Ban Ban Ban Do Not Ban Ban
Zacian-C doesn't need much explanation, as it's been the face of the tier the entire generation. It was allowed to remain unrestricted thanks to its BST reduction, however that time has come to a close. Its main issue was having an absurd amount of sets, both offensive and defensive, to the point that countering all of them is simply not possible and games essentially become a lottery of which Zacian-C you're up against. This isn't helped by the massive variety within these archetypes, such as having to play around an unknown Immunity ability on Substitute sets or guessing which Choice Band coverage it had, and the fact that you would often have to guess this without prior scouting was ultimately not healthy. The 90% usage rate on the ladder last month is also an undesirable amount of centralization for a modern tier.
Quiver Dance has had a bumpy ride. The main purpose of this ban is to address the issue of bulky boosters being impossible to stave off long-term, chief culprits being things like Arceus-Ghost, Eternatus, and Arceus-Ground (and probably a lot more Arceus formes that people will have used at some point). With Quiver Dance gone, these are now unable to boost Speed and offensive potential at the same time, so should be easier to handle over the course of a game. This ban also scales back the potential of some dangerous threats, such as Palkia-O and Miraidon, so they should also be easier to deal with. Tera remaining unbanned ultimately means that a would-be limiting factor for them isn't place, so this was the action we settled on to limit abusers over Single Ability Clause. This is a pretty unprecented change for BH so things will be quite different to any other generation.
Here's our current watchlist for the immediate future:
Miraidon will likely regain its prominence as a premier special attacker thanks to Zacian-C's ban, meaning it isn't constantly competing on Speed and now has a newfound boosting option in Nasty Plot. It can also stick with its regular Choice Specs set and still gain the same benefits, notably outspeeding and scaring out most Arceus formes (as they can't readily boost Speed - any that are, such as No Retreat Arceus-Ghost or Tidy Up Arceus-Ground, you don't have any business with anyway).
We didn't vote on Palkia-O as it intersected heavily with the Quiver Dance vote. QD being gone hopefully limits its instant sweeping potential, however with Tera still legal and a still-incredible offensive profile, sets like SimplePlot or Mold Breaker are something to watch out for and we'll be keeping an eye on them.
We didn't vote on Gorilla Tactics as it intersected heavily with the Zacian-C vote. The majority of complaints about GT were specifically targeted at GT Zacian-C, which would make our votes misrepresentative of the ability itself and more skewed towards Zacian-C as an abuser. We'll be keeping a close eye on how well this does on other attackers, as none can match both of Zacian-C's Speed and Attack.
Tagging Kris to implement.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter Tea Guzzler
- Start date
victory dance's halved PP and generally higher neutral bulk on physical mons means it's much more feasible to PP stall something out of victory dance. QD's main issue was that it would inevitably break past your defenses and win long-term, not that it didn't have any checks to begin with. victory dance also doesn't let you abuse judgment which is huge (and there is no good replacement for this).
there's also just so few VD users to where we can't ban it on principle, as only groudon/slaking/zacian-c really use it and only zacian-c was viewed as problematic (which we QBd and so we'd end up in the same situation as voting on GT with the main abuser already gone)
Hello good sir, thank you for sharing your opinion. I would like to inform you that although quiver dance and victory dance work in similar fashion, victory dance simply has more counter play compared to victory dance. You have valid points, however victory dance can be burned invalidating everything you do, while you pray to your god that your special wall can win long term somehow.
good point
disagree, we got mad torques now, I mean this is the tier where you can put any move you want on your mon, also wasting an item slot for judgement is mid af fr fr
well now arceus is going to spam it instead, how much different is my unaware quiver dancing arceus with moonblast from an unaware victory dancing arceus with magic torque, victory dance is probably more annoying
idk man, being able to completely invalidate one of the most splashable checks to setup in imposter chansey is pretty big, and its worth noting that even plate chansey can be abused from simply running a plate in the first place and the ever-common knock off. this is especially so on arceus, as it cant even lose its plate via knock off or similar stuff
yea I think imposter is overrated, unaware and ice scales are better, I understand ghost ceus is very good vs the meta, and that's probably why the council decided to ban it but I just think people were unwilling to use the checks, regen av ting lu, unaware fairyceus, the thing wasn't invincible by any means
Will just add on to what Tea said by saying:
Quiver dance and victory dance are completely separate. They might seem like they do similar things on paper, but in practice they are used by completely different mons working with completely different movepools (physical vs special, etc). I don't think it's correct to say action on one necessitates or implies that there should be something done about the other.
Special attackers are very very privileged this gen. Physical mons have to deal with burns and sap, which is particularly relevant as 16 saps completely stall out 16 victory dances. Special attackers have judgement, which is flat-out the best improofing tool in the game.
In my view, a lot of sets that seem like they should be able to counter quiver dance don't actually do so at all. This is because in this gen, more than gen 7 or 8, the "what does the wall do in return?" question is more relevant than ever. We have no spectral or topsy to instantly turn opposing boosts into momentum. Regenvests tend to use knock and/or nuzzle, but this does nothing against qd arc-ground. You can try to toxic with ice scales/unaware, but there is so much counterplay to that which has already seen use, like good as gold, magic guard, jungle healing, poison/steel tera, or just being poison/steel to begin with. Prankster is quite a bit worse this gen with 8 recover pp and has a tendency to simply be unable to check anything after being poisoned by mortal spin or toxic.
Given all these factors, one of the most reliable ways to check quiver dance was to go to a mon with a good matchup and start quiver dancing yourself. One concrete example of this dynamic is scales quiver arc-fairy to check quiver palkia. Given this and the above factors, quiver dance had a completely dominating presence over the tier and it was banned. Victory dance could easily be banned in the future but again, it would be an entirely separate issue. Hope this helped answer some of your concerns.
The three main disadvantages to Victory Dance relative to Quiver Dancer are as follows.
1) Judgment. Without judgment, it is much harder to make a quiver dance user imposterproof. Some types do have any solutions, but if you try and use Itemless Victory Dance Poltergeist + Triple Arrows Arceus-Ghost as your judgment ghostceus replacement you're in for a world of dissapointment. This means you can often blanket check a victory dance user with Eviolite Chansey, which in turn forces them to either accept the L or run worse sets like covert cloak + secondary effect + moves that dont hurt themselves and just be overall notably less dangerous.
2) Strength Sap. Strength Sap shuts down victory dance in a way it just doesn't to quiver dance. Not only will it pretty much always heal you to full against a Victory Dance user, it'll also cancel out their attack boost and make them less dangerous. Thanks to Victory Dance having only 16 PP, you can't even outlast sap like you could if it had QD's 32.
3) Burn. If you want to check QD mons with status, you have to paralyze it and hope gets fully paralayzed on enough key turns before it outspeeds and koes your whole team, or toxic and again hope that stops it in time. With >90% of physical attackers, however, you can pretty much completely shut them down with a burn from Wisp, or failing that scald / blazing torque / infernal parade, and have them both take chip every turn and be basically useless. There are a handful of exceptions like guts groudon, but for the most part they dont use victory dance anyway.
In addition to these three, there's also the comapratively lesser but still notable question of walls. Like it or not, our physical walls are just plain better than our special ones. Sure, we have regenvest, but even common regenvesters like Ting Lu have higher base physdef than SPD and act as solid physical pivots regardless. We also have access to Dondozo, Groudon, Slaking... it's not overwhelming difference, but it really does help.
1) Judgment. Without judgment, it is much harder to make a quiver dance user imposterproof. Some types do have any solutions, but if you try and use Itemless Victory Dance Poltergeist + Triple Arrows Arceus-Ghost as your judgment ghostceus replacement you're in for a world of dissapointment. This means you can often blanket check a victory dance user with Eviolite Chansey, which in turn forces them to either accept the L or run worse sets like covert cloak + secondary effect + moves that dont hurt themselves and just be overall notably less dangerous.
2) Strength Sap. Strength Sap shuts down victory dance in a way it just doesn't to quiver dance. Not only will it pretty much always heal you to full against a Victory Dance user, it'll also cancel out their attack boost and make them less dangerous. Thanks to Victory Dance having only 16 PP, you can't even outlast sap like you could if it had QD's 32.
3) Burn. If you want to check QD mons with status, you have to paralyze it and hope gets fully paralayzed on enough key turns before it outspeeds and koes your whole team, or toxic and again hope that stops it in time. With >90% of physical attackers, however, you can pretty much completely shut them down with a burn from Wisp, or failing that scald / blazing torque / infernal parade, and have them both take chip every turn and be basically useless. There are a handful of exceptions like guts groudon, but for the most part they dont use victory dance anyway.
In addition to these three, there's also the comapratively lesser but still notable question of walls. Like it or not, our physical walls are just plain better than our special ones. Sure, we have regenvest, but even common regenvesters like Ting Lu have higher base physdef than SPD and act as solid physical pivots regardless. We also have access to Dondozo, Groudon, Slaking... it's not overwhelming difference, but it really does help.
It was the most flexible mon there is in terms of being an absolute unit of reliable KO potential Along with being able to run a metric shit ton of unique sets that can work with reliability if done right. Just Jesus I love Zacian and I’ll miss him but fuck it was fun while it lastedHi! We have a few announcements.
First, Tera suspect ended in DNB, you can see the votes here.
Secondly... Zacian-Crowned and Quiver Dance are banned from BH!
Tea Guzzler quojova Chessking345 XxLazzerpenguinxX TTTech Zacian-Crowned Ban Ban Ban Do Not Ban Ban Quiver Dance Ban Ban Ban Do Not Ban Ban
Tagging Kris to implement.
zacian uncrowned is still viable, the insane wallbreaker sets won't be as good but defensive utility sets are still about the same viability, debatably better because you aren't weak to ground and fire anymore, tera can make up some of the damage
Zacian @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb/Well Baked Body/Volt Absorb/Liquid Ooze
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recover
- Substitute/Toxic/Leech Seed
- Victory Dance/Knock Off/Salt Cure
- Magical Torque
Lets theorymon because theorymonning is cool and definitely not dumb.
This post will primarily focus on Zacian-C. Quiver Dance ban is much less impactful in comparison but I will mention it if its important.
Zacian-C ban is kind of unique in that almost every other Pokemon in the tier benefits from its departure. Other offensive mons did not appreciate its revenge-killing potential, as well as fantastic typing and bulk that forces very specific moves to nail it (which could get blocked by the right immunity ability. Physically defensive mons can slack a bit with Magical Torque confusions and not dedicate moves to hit it. Specially defensive mons don't have to deal with utility Zacian-C sets switching in and exerting great Pressure. Basically, almost everyone else in the meta benefits, albeit to different degrees. Since that is a lot of mons, this post will just consider the potentially viable fast offensive mons, with "fast" meaning outspeeding Arceus.
While Zacian-C existed, a lot of these mons were basically unviable, because Zacian-C outclassed them, checked them, forced suboptimal moves etc.
200
Regieleki loses a big niche in being the only remotely viable mon that outsped Zacian-C. It still remains the absolute fastest mon in the meta without even a speed boosting nature, outspeeding Neutral 116 or Positive 102 +1 mons and Neutral 76 or Positive 65 +2 mons, giving it some revenge-killing potential. That being said, it's pretty weak outside of a potential Hadron boosted Rising Voltage, with stuff like unboosted Headlong Rush failing to 2HKO Dialga-O. Suicide leads face competition from the next mon, and Hyper Offense is questionable when Tera is unbanned.
148 Zacian @ 
could potentially see some use because in the end, its still a Zacian-C, albeit without the item or ability slot. Can see this running some utility sets, though the lack of an ability and inability to hold items like Covert Cloak can be very detrimental. Potentially reasonably viable since people are much less likely to prepare for this typing.
142
Dragapult is likely much better than Regieleki, possessing slightly more offense (Eleki runs boosting nature) and much better STAB types and moves. It's speed tier lets it revenge-kill the other Dragons in the meta, and the neutral coverage between its STABs lets it hit most of the meta reasonably well. Its damage output is also lacking a bit though, and it will struggle to force switches or take down bulky neutral targets without good prediction. A suicide lead set can compete with Regieleki due to access to Curse.
138
Hero-forme Zacian saw exactly 0 usage before due to Species Clause, but now it can be used viably. It has the same good Fairy typing, outspeeds the crowded 135 tier, and has good matchups into all of them. Defensive sets can see similar stuff to Arceus-Fairy, with noticeably worse bulk but better speed and not consuming the slot. Offensive utility sets can also be reasonable, as Fairy resists might decline, and Pixi Pop Bomb will still hit like a truck. Definitely see this as a reasonably good mon.
138
This mon is probably just outclassed by Koraidon, who is far more threatening to Ghost-types with its useful secondary type. The lack of Dragon-type doesn't even help since you don't really want to deal with any of the stuff in the 135 tier anyways (or Dragons in general) so its only for Chien Pao?
136
Iron Bundle has theoretically perfect neutral coverage if it runs Freeze-Dry (Specs does 2HKO Waterceus) which makes Refrigerate potentially appealing since Water STAB hits most Ice resists now that Zacian-C is gone. However, Scales Dialga-O is still a difficult wall to bypass, with not even Tera Ice 2HKOing from full. Can see this being used.
135
Nice STABs that hit 3 of the common FC walls from Zac-C meta (Ghostceus, Groudon, Eternatus) while having a neutral matchup into Miraidon without Tera. Highly appreciates no Zac-C. Needs Collision Course to nail FC Slaking but can see some use.
135
Can spam Fairy moves without real resists since Ghost STAB threatens all of them. Specs and Judgment sets both seem solid. Extra power compared to the aforementioned Iron Bundle lets it brute force through Dialga-O with Tera slightly easier.
135
The strongest mon in this list by attack. Offensive sets can take down moderately chipped FC Ghostceus with Glaive Rush. STABs hit enough stuff in the meta to allow it to dedicate a move for Fairies. Defensive sets can also be interesting now that physically Fairy moves are practically extinct, with a great typing to resist V-create while not being weak to other common moves, and the Fighting type helps against Population Bomb users.
135 Doesn't really need much discussion. We know how this mon was already strong and now its best revenge-killer is gone. Though, there can be more freedom to pack special walls.
130
Etern is still going to be a great defensive pick, with a nice typing and useful Toxic immunity. Offensive sets sees some positive change too with Zacian-C gone, though Etern was a very good QD user. We might see Poison STAB being run now.
130
Mewtwo differentiates itself from the other special attackers through its STAB Lumina Crash, which gives it a way of breaking past traditional special walls. It also has a reasonable 110 attack for potential mixed sets. However, it will still struggle with stuff like Dialga-O and notably Ting-Lu, who has great mixed bulk and is immune to Psychic. M2 also has a really strong Future Sight to support physical teammates potentially.
130
Ghost horse probably won't be very easily justified over Flutter Mane. The Fairy STAB is very useful and missing out on it for a bit stronger Ghost STABs doesn't feel worth it at all.
128
The fastest Normal Population Bomb user that is also hopeless walled by Ghosts?
128
Zama-C defensively got a small bump with less Magical Torques to worry about, and its probably one of the best Slaking switch-ins. I still don't really see defensive sets being good though with a Fire and Ground weakness, but utility sets can be interesting, similar to Zacian-C. That being said, neither of is STABs are very good, Fighting has an immunity while Steel is resisted by big threats like Miraidon and Palkia.
123
You know, if Brute Bonnet (or Zarude) can see offensive success, Meowscarada trades power for the speed jump on Arceus. Dark Grass is actually a pretty nice offensive typing, with Dark blocking Prankster and bypassing Sap drops with Wicked Blow while Grass STAB hits Groudon and Dondozo really hard.
120
and friends
This is a lot of potentially viable mons, and I haven't even considered listing the sub 121 speed mons. While playtesting will show which of these are actually viable and remain used, there will still be a diverse pool of mons to build around (much more diverse than pre ban), and with also numerous defensive picks, there should be a lot of variety in this new meta (kind of reminds me of pre-DLC SS meta but with actual defensive mons). Interested to hear your opinions as the meta develops from arguably a fresh slate too so post your thoughts here or on disc.
This post will primarily focus on Zacian-C. Quiver Dance ban is much less impactful in comparison but I will mention it if its important.
Zacian-C ban is kind of unique in that almost every other Pokemon in the tier benefits from its departure. Other offensive mons did not appreciate its revenge-killing potential, as well as fantastic typing and bulk that forces very specific moves to nail it (which could get blocked by the right immunity ability. Physically defensive mons can slack a bit with Magical Torque confusions and not dedicate moves to hit it. Specially defensive mons don't have to deal with utility Zacian-C sets switching in and exerting great Pressure. Basically, almost everyone else in the meta benefits, albeit to different degrees. Since that is a lot of mons, this post will just consider the potentially viable fast offensive mons, with "fast" meaning outspeeding Arceus.
While Zacian-C existed, a lot of these mons were basically unviable, because Zacian-C outclassed them, checked them, forced suboptimal moves etc.
200
Regieleki loses a big niche in being the only remotely viable mon that outsped Zacian-C. It still remains the absolute fastest mon in the meta without even a speed boosting nature, outspeeding Neutral 116 or Positive 102 +1 mons and Neutral 76 or Positive 65 +2 mons, giving it some revenge-killing potential. That being said, it's pretty weak outside of a potential Hadron boosted Rising Voltage, with stuff like unboosted Headlong Rush failing to 2HKO Dialga-O. Suicide leads face competition from the next mon, and Hyper Offense is questionable when Tera is unbanned.148
Zacian @ could potentially see some use because in the end, its still a Zacian-C, albeit without the item or ability slot. Can see this running some utility sets, though the lack of an ability and inability to hold items like Covert Cloak can be very detrimental. Potentially reasonably viable since people are much less likely to prepare for this typing.142
Dragapult is likely much better than Regieleki, possessing slightly more offense (Eleki runs boosting nature) and much better STAB types and moves. It's speed tier lets it revenge-kill the other Dragons in the meta, and the neutral coverage between its STABs lets it hit most of the meta reasonably well. Its damage output is also lacking a bit though, and it will struggle to force switches or take down bulky neutral targets without good prediction. A suicide lead set can compete with Regieleki due to access to Curse.138
Hero-forme Zacian saw exactly 0 usage before due to Species Clause, but now it can be used viably. It has the same good Fairy typing, outspeeds the crowded 135 tier, and has good matchups into all of them. Defensive sets can see similar stuff to Arceus-Fairy, with noticeably worse bulk but better speed and not consuming the slot. Offensive utility sets can also be reasonable, as Fairy resists might decline, and Pixi Pop Bomb will still hit like a truck. Definitely see this as a reasonably good mon.138
This mon is probably just outclassed by Koraidon, who is far more threatening to Ghost-types with its useful secondary type. The lack of Dragon-type doesn't even help since you don't really want to deal with any of the stuff in the 135 tier anyways (or Dragons in general) so its only for Chien Pao?136
Iron Bundle has theoretically perfect neutral coverage if it runs Freeze-Dry (Specs does 2HKO Waterceus) which makes Refrigerate potentially appealing since Water STAB hits most Ice resists now that Zacian-C is gone. However, Scales Dialga-O is still a difficult wall to bypass, with not even Tera Ice 2HKOing from full. Can see this being used.135
Nice STABs that hit 3 of the common FC walls from Zac-C meta (Ghostceus, Groudon, Eternatus) while having a neutral matchup into Miraidon without Tera. Highly appreciates no Zac-C. Needs Collision Course to nail FC Slaking but can see some use.135
Can spam Fairy moves without real resists since Ghost STAB threatens all of them. Specs and Judgment sets both seem solid. Extra power compared to the aforementioned Iron Bundle lets it brute force through Dialga-O with Tera slightly easier.135
The strongest mon in this list by attack. Offensive sets can take down moderately chipped FC Ghostceus with Glaive Rush. STABs hit enough stuff in the meta to allow it to dedicate a move for Fairies. Defensive sets can also be interesting now that physically Fairy moves are practically extinct, with a great typing to resist V-create while not being weak to other common moves, and the Fighting type helps against Population Bomb users.135
Doesn't really need much discussion. We know how this mon was already strong and now its best revenge-killer is gone. Though, there can be more freedom to pack special walls.130
Etern is still going to be a great defensive pick, with a nice typing and useful Toxic immunity. Offensive sets sees some positive change too with Zacian-C gone, though Etern was a very good QD user. We might see Poison STAB being run now.130
Mewtwo differentiates itself from the other special attackers through its STAB Lumina Crash, which gives it a way of breaking past traditional special walls. It also has a reasonable 110 attack for potential mixed sets. However, it will still struggle with stuff like Dialga-O and notably Ting-Lu, who has great mixed bulk and is immune to Psychic. M2 also has a really strong Future Sight to support physical teammates potentially.130
Ghost horse probably won't be very easily justified over Flutter Mane. The Fairy STAB is very useful and missing out on it for a bit stronger Ghost STABs doesn't feel worth it at all.128
The fastest Normal Population Bomb user that is also hopeless walled by Ghosts?128
Zama-C defensively got a small bump with less Magical Torques to worry about, and its probably one of the best Slaking switch-ins. I still don't really see defensive sets being good though with a Fire and Ground weakness, but utility sets can be interesting, similar to Zacian-C. That being said, neither of is STABs are very good, Fighting has an immunity while Steel is resisted by big threats like Miraidon and Palkia.123
You know, if Brute Bonnet (or Zarude) can see offensive success, Meowscarada trades power for the speed jump on Arceus. Dark Grass is actually a pretty nice offensive typing, with Dark blocking Prankster and bypassing Sap drops with Wicked Blow while Grass STAB hits Groudon and Dondozo really hard.120
and friendsThis is a lot of potentially viable mons, and I haven't even considered listing the sub 121 speed mons. While playtesting will show which of these are actually viable and remain used, there will still be a diverse pool of mons to build around (much more diverse than pre ban), and with also numerous defensive picks, there should be a lot of variety in this new meta (kind of reminds me of pre-DLC SS meta but with actual defensive mons). Interested to hear your opinions as the meta develops from arguably a fresh slate too so post your thoughts here or on disc.
building the most annoying ting lu set... ever
Ting-Lu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Ceaseless Edge
- Mortal Spin
- Salt Cure/Earthquake
if it's meant to counter or cripple miralidon why are you using nuzzle, mortal spin, knock off and salt cure, ensure, you will have passive damage stacking on miralidon, how many players are running magic guard mons on the ladder, almost none, so knock off their cloaks, steel types want to come in to block mortal spin, knock and salt, mortal spin on imposters, arceus ghost, groudon, works well with setup sweepers, mono attacking sub zacian, unaware fairyceus and I'm sure many more
Ting-Lu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Ceaseless Edge
- Mortal Spin
- Salt Cure/Earthquake
if it's meant to counter or cripple miralidon why are you using nuzzle, mortal spin, knock off and salt cure, ensure, you will have passive damage stacking on miralidon, how many players are running magic guard mons on the ladder, almost none, so knock off their cloaks, steel types want to come in to block mortal spin, knock and salt, mortal spin on imposters, arceus ghost, groudon, works well with setup sweepers, mono attacking sub zacian, unaware fairyceus and I'm sure many more
Last edited:
some thoughts on new meta
Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Dragon / Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dragon Energy
- Steam Eruption / Water Spout
- Strength Sap
what checks this again? simple + timid leaves this able to OHKO everything in the tier except for chansey (meaning no imp chansey + instant death to mixed attackers) and full-immunes like desland arc-fairy (not v good). heavy emplasis on the dragons means that chansey is pretty common (and because you aren't boosting speed you can't afford to do weird stuff with altered), so mixed attacking support like enam or arrows arc feels necessary in quite a few circumstances. this is still probably broken though as desland zac-c is gone and was probably the easiest brick wall to fit.
Zacian @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Ball Fetch
Tera Type: Fairy / Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Magical Torque
- V-create
- Strength Sap
this seems really hard to justify. no item or ability choice are detriments for something supposed to be offensive, and no immune abil / leftovers or cloak severely limits what you can pull with defensive or sub sets. this is made worse by the fact that, despite isword only working once for you, imposter gets it on every switch-in making this really annoying to improof. generally i don't think this'll see a ton of use but maybe you can justify it? there just seems like there's better stuff to offensively pressure the bikes with, like base zacian and the below...
Iron Bundle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Steam Eruption
- Freeze-Dry / Thunderbolt / Apple Acid / etc
- Volt Switch
delibot's entire niche is 136 speed and a usable special attack stat, meaning it outspeeds everything relevant and actually does something useful unlike dragapult. specs fridge isn't exceptional damage coming off of a decent-at-best special attack but it does enough to where you can't sit in with a not-special wall, and it packs some pretty good defense that lets it firm espeeds in a pinch if it needs to. third slot is for hitting waters since this thing is otherwise severe imposter fodder. it's just sort of alright, there's not really much to say about it other than it speedcreeps base 135s and hits decently hard.
Enamorus (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire / Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- V-create / Headlong Rush
- Strength Sap
hazard removal that bullies teams crutching on chansey as their only good spdef mon. relying on this as your primary removal never tends to go well, even on offense, so pairing with tidy up don is generally recommended. tera ground headlong ensures you ruin every viable special wall and can force mindgames with miraidon in a pinch. improofing is annoying now that immunizac is gone so probably use corv or scales arc.
Koraidon @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Glaive Rush
- Close Combat
- Gigaton Hammer
- Flip Turn
overrated imo. you can't fit any coverage to hit stuff super-effectively and the STABs are kind of just bad. needs tera to be threatening otherwise fur coats just eat hits forever. this is mostly a "just use groudon or ursa" case in terms of GT stuff as they both hit harder, have better STABs and can viably fit speed control options. the one niche this thing has is speed, as with tera + spikes you 2HKO fc arc, but needing tera to do anything isn't that appealing and other stuff does basically the same if you just use one of the easy sapblockers. if/when GT gets banned then i think this mon just falls off completely.
Dragapult @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Entrainment
- Judgment
- Knock Off
- Taunt
stop pretending this is viable. no stats other than speed, plate is removeable, defensive liability, can't fit all of knock/taunt/jungle so it's forced to lose to most common special walls and basically all pranksters, things actually run plates unlike last gen and memories so normalize doesn't even negate its dire bulk. this might annoy some teams but realistically is never being anything more than an annoyance. if you want something to outrun bikes with, just use bundle or zac.
Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Dragon / Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dragon Energy
- Steam Eruption / Water Spout
- Strength Sap
what checks this again? simple + timid leaves this able to OHKO everything in the tier except for chansey (meaning no imp chansey + instant death to mixed attackers) and full-immunes like desland arc-fairy (not v good). heavy emplasis on the dragons means that chansey is pretty common (and because you aren't boosting speed you can't afford to do weird stuff with altered), so mixed attacking support like enam or arrows arc feels necessary in quite a few circumstances. this is still probably broken though as desland zac-c is gone and was probably the easiest brick wall to fit.
Zacian @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Ball Fetch
Tera Type: Fairy / Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Magical Torque
- V-create
- Strength Sap
this seems really hard to justify. no item or ability choice are detriments for something supposed to be offensive, and no immune abil / leftovers or cloak severely limits what you can pull with defensive or sub sets. this is made worse by the fact that, despite isword only working once for you, imposter gets it on every switch-in making this really annoying to improof. generally i don't think this'll see a ton of use but maybe you can justify it? there just seems like there's better stuff to offensively pressure the bikes with, like base zacian and the below...
Iron Bundle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Steam Eruption
- Freeze-Dry / Thunderbolt / Apple Acid / etc
- Volt Switch
delibot's entire niche is 136 speed and a usable special attack stat, meaning it outspeeds everything relevant and actually does something useful unlike dragapult. specs fridge isn't exceptional damage coming off of a decent-at-best special attack but it does enough to where you can't sit in with a not-special wall, and it packs some pretty good defense that lets it firm espeeds in a pinch if it needs to. third slot is for hitting waters since this thing is otherwise severe imposter fodder. it's just sort of alright, there's not really much to say about it other than it speedcreeps base 135s and hits decently hard.
Enamorus (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire / Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- V-create / Headlong Rush
- Strength Sap
hazard removal that bullies teams crutching on chansey as their only good spdef mon. relying on this as your primary removal never tends to go well, even on offense, so pairing with tidy up don is generally recommended. tera ground headlong ensures you ruin every viable special wall and can force mindgames with miraidon in a pinch. improofing is annoying now that immunizac is gone so probably use corv or scales arc.
Koraidon @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Glaive Rush
- Close Combat
- Gigaton Hammer
- Flip Turn
overrated imo. you can't fit any coverage to hit stuff super-effectively and the STABs are kind of just bad. needs tera to be threatening otherwise fur coats just eat hits forever. this is mostly a "just use groudon or ursa" case in terms of GT stuff as they both hit harder, have better STABs and can viably fit speed control options. the one niche this thing has is speed, as with tera + spikes you 2HKO fc arc, but needing tera to do anything isn't that appealing and other stuff does basically the same if you just use one of the easy sapblockers. if/when GT gets banned then i think this mon just falls off completely.
Dragapult @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Entrainment
- Judgment
- Knock Off
- Taunt
stop pretending this is viable. no stats other than speed, plate is removeable, defensive liability, can't fit all of knock/taunt/jungle so it's forced to lose to most common special walls and basically all pranksters, things actually run plates unlike last gen and memories so normalize doesn't even negate its dire bulk. this might annoy some teams but realistically is never being anything more than an annoyance. if you want something to outrun bikes with, just use bundle or zac.
Last edited:
I made this set because spiritomb is quite bad, but I still wanted a ghost type that could switch into trappers and win
Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple/Magic Guard
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Jungle Healing/Rest
- No Retreat/Spirit Shackle
- Salt Cure
- Knock Off
def boosting nature might be better, because usually you'll switch this into zam, but, for me it's been a good switchin to etern sets, so maybe I'll keep spedef, the goal here is to stall break obviously, the hilarious combo of knock off salt cure, if the team is frail enough you can just sweep with knock off, a lot of variants of this set are probably quite good, since I run a mono attacker zacian, it lacks some of the raw power that zacc had, so this is to wear down the pranksters/unaware/fur coats dondozo, heatran, arceus whatever, this had spirit shackle before, generally, get all the items off, best case scenario you can sweep, or atleast take dondozo to 50 percent and waste most of its recovery, if it has strength sap it loses to sub zacian, if it has slack off that pp will be gone if it wants to stay in
quiver dance at home arceus
the godfather 1 (Arceus-Fairy) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Roost
- Rapid Spin
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
you really can't have enough hazard removal on a team, also boosts your speed by 1, what else is there to say, switch to poison on problematic matchups
Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple/Magic Guard
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Jungle Healing/Rest
- No Retreat/Spirit Shackle
- Salt Cure
- Knock Off
def boosting nature might be better, because usually you'll switch this into zam, but, for me it's been a good switchin to etern sets, so maybe I'll keep spedef, the goal here is to stall break obviously, the hilarious combo of knock off salt cure, if the team is frail enough you can just sweep with knock off, a lot of variants of this set are probably quite good, since I run a mono attacker zacian, it lacks some of the raw power that zacc had, so this is to wear down the pranksters/unaware/fur coats dondozo, heatran, arceus whatever, this had spirit shackle before, generally, get all the items off, best case scenario you can sweep, or atleast take dondozo to 50 percent and waste most of its recovery, if it has strength sap it loses to sub zacian, if it has slack off that pp will be gone if it wants to stay in
quiver dance at home arceus
the godfather 1 (Arceus-Fairy) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Roost
- Rapid Spin
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
you really can't have enough hazard removal on a team, also boosts your speed by 1, what else is there to say, switch to poison on problematic matchups
Last edited:
First of all, nice! I logged into Showdown today after a brief break and its nice not having to worry about Zacian anymore. Although I did completely forget about the tera-typing vote, not that mine would have mattered anyways. It's a nice and refreshing breath of air and I think it's moving the meta in the right direction.Hi! We have a few announcements.
First, Tera suspect ended in DNB, you can see the votes here.
Secondly... Zacian-Crowned and Quiver Dance are banned from BH!
Tea Guzzler quojova Chessking345 XxLazzerpenguinxX TTTech Zacian-Crowned Ban Ban Ban Do Not Ban Ban Quiver Dance Ban Ban Ban Do Not Ban Ban
Here's our current watchlist for the immediate future:
Tagging Kris to implement.
As for the single ability clause, its quite tricky to implement and could increase the viability of offensive Pokemon due to the lack of defense. With just a single special wall with Ice Scales, teams must be extra careful when playing around Palkia-O or risk losing their one lifeline. Additionally, a single physical tank will suffer against the variety of offensive abilities (GT, SoR, Orichalium Pulse) and will inevitably break once their healing runs out. The main things being removed from the meta if SAC were to be implemented would be defensive measures which are essential in a meta with much offensive utility. It feels like many FurScales is too much but just one FurScales is not enough. A possible counter the the variety of offensive Pokemon is to use Imposter against it. With Imposter Chansey, you get the benefit of increased defenses, greater HP and the same offensive capability of the opponent. As for stall, I strongly dislike the double imposter stall and I will gladly watch it burn in hell.
Overall, I like the SAC. It reminds be of the G7BH days. But the overbearing amount of offensive utility will push more teams to go offensive or go imposter.
we heard you like ting lu, so we put yo ting lu in yo treads so you can ting lu while you treads
Iron Treads @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Ceaseless Edge
- Mortal Spin
- Salt Cure
takes like 60 from full hp specs dragon energy miraldon, after assault vest is knocked, to be careful I guess this could be your secondary av or just have like a magic guard annoyer up front to spread knock off and basically the same 4 moves, I seriously considered an av ting lu and an av iron treads on the same team and I'm still not entirely opposed to it
Iron Treads @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Ceaseless Edge
- Mortal Spin
- Salt Cure
takes like 60 from full hp specs dragon energy miraldon, after assault vest is knocked, to be careful I guess this could be your secondary av or just have like a magic guard annoyer up front to spread knock off and basically the same 4 moves, I seriously considered an av ting lu and an av iron treads on the same team and I'm still not entirely opposed to it
Don Bozo
Banned deucer.
Hello everyone, with this post, I hope to enlighten you on one of the most underrated abilities in the format; Magic Guard. If you don't know, this ability lets you become immune to all passive sources of damage such as status, hazards, recoil and DOT moves like Salt Cure and Infestation. With the nerfs to most recovery moves and ban on Poison Heal, I believe this is the best ability to sustain your mons next to Regenerator. Now I want to make one thing very clear; this is not an ability that you want to put on passive walls like Dondozo or Ting-lu. You are much better off running RegenVest or FurScales in that case. The best way to use this ability is to run it on offensive mons such as those shown below. The reason for this is because these mons are able to take advantage of the recoil nullification component of the ability. Not only do you have access to high-pp, damage and accurate moves like Double-Edge and Flare Blitz, you also ignore Life Orb recoil. Not only that, because you are able to preserve your hp due to ignoring all passive damage, hp-based moves like Dragon Energy, Water Spout and Eruption become consistently strong. As a side note, moves like Chloroblast and Mind Blown also lose their hp demerit through the latter is currently unavailable. These factors in conjunction with Strength Sap turns your mons into incredibly resilient and hard-hitting tank-nukes. Another important factor that makes these sorts of mon so good is the lack of EV limit in this format. In other formats, most mons have difficulty being a tank and dealing damage, for example defensive Clefable and LO Clefable in OU are two completely different sets. But because of legendaries' high natural BST, they can fulfil both roles at once. Magic Guard is one of the few rare abilities that is good both offensively and defensively which is complemented by all mons having access to max EVs on all stats. If you have not already, I recommend trying one of the sets below and see for yourself how well they perform. Note that Victory Dance is also very viable if you are looking for a win condition but personally I have not tested it yet.
I recommend picking a STAB, Strength Sap, coverage and either another coverage or utility move. Flare Blitz was great when Zacian was popular but now maybe you don't need it. It's bad vs Palkia and Miraidon but good vs Zamazenta and steel/grassceus though they're uncommon. If you wanna hit FC Groudon/dondozo hard you can go for Chloroblast. Wave Crash/Volt Tackle also work but it doesn't hit both. Dragon Energy might seem weird on physical attackers but it hits dragons and Giratina which is good. For the last slot you can pick another coverage or your choice of utility move. This includes Ceaseless Edge, Knock Off, Toxic, Nuzzle, Wisp, etc. Alternatively you can also run Victory Dance or Tidy Up if you need a set up mon.
Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Flare Blitz
- Ceaseless Edge / Chloroblast / Volt Tackle
- Strength Sap
Palafin-Hero @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Wave Crash
- Flare Blitz
- Volt Tackle / Ceaseless Edge / Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Energy
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Strength Sap
Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Dragon Energy
- Eruption
- Strength Sap
Dialga-Origin @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steel Beam
- Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap
- Eruption
I recommend picking a STAB, Strength Sap, coverage and either another coverage or utility move. Flare Blitz was great when Zacian was popular but now maybe you don't need it. It's bad vs Palkia and Miraidon but good vs Zamazenta and steel/grassceus though they're uncommon. If you wanna hit FC Groudon/dondozo hard you can go for Chloroblast. Wave Crash/Volt Tackle also work but it doesn't hit both. Dragon Energy might seem weird on physical attackers but it hits dragons and Giratina which is good. For the last slot you can pick another coverage or your choice of utility move. This includes Ceaseless Edge, Knock Off, Toxic, Nuzzle, Wisp, etc. Alternatively you can also run Victory Dance or Tidy Up if you need a set up mon.
Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Flare Blitz
- Ceaseless Edge / Chloroblast / Volt Tackle
- Strength Sap
Palafin-Hero @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Wave Crash
- Flare Blitz
- Volt Tackle / Ceaseless Edge / Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Energy
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Strength Sap
Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Dragon Energy
- Eruption
- Strength Sap
Dialga-Origin @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steel Beam
- Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap
- Eruption
Last edited:
ok this is pivotal new info that needs a new post to be stated
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Salt Cure
you take 9 damage from specs hadron miralidon grass knot, will they run flash cannon now, maybe, if you want a miralidon counter this is the best I could come up with, yes you're running a scream tail, but atleast you aren't losing a mon everytime miralidon comes in, in terms of common moves, the next one would be overheat or flamethrower, although I've never seen it, apparently it's used in ubers, I believe overheat does around 50 to this set, if this set becomes popular I guess astral barrage is the next best option, or sludge bomb, or flash cannon, of course you need 3 miraldon counters per team, so run av ting lu av iron treads, and volt scream tail
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Salt Cure
you take 9 damage from specs hadron miralidon grass knot, will they run flash cannon now, maybe, if you want a miralidon counter this is the best I could come up with, yes you're running a scream tail, but atleast you aren't losing a mon everytime miralidon comes in, in terms of common moves, the next one would be overheat or flamethrower, although I've never seen it, apparently it's used in ubers, I believe overheat does around 50 to this set, if this set becomes popular I guess astral barrage is the next best option, or sludge bomb, or flash cannon, of course you need 3 miraldon counters per team, so run av ting lu av iron treads, and volt scream tail
Last edited:
So I got bullied by RNG in r1 of open, which is sort of a blessing since I can just drop stuff here. I've been experimenting with some stuff that i''ll just put here:
Zacian-Crowned @ Iron Plate
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Dark / Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spicy Extract
- Gigaton Hammer
- Substitute / Flower Trick
- Strength Sap
This is partly a meme but partly also a legit set. Spicy Extract gives the target +2 Attack but also -2 Defense, and Opportunist copies the Attack boost, essentially meaning the tech gives you +2 Attack and the target -2 Defense in 1 turn (for an effective 4x damage amp in 1 turn). This is backed up by Iron Plate + Gigaton Hammer, which is sufficient to OHKO everything that isn't a Fur Coat resist (seriously, Impish FC Slaking is 93.8% to instantly drop). Flower Trick bursts past Water-types whereas Sub basically guarantees a KO if you come in on something like a RegenVest user. Now this is all well and good, but Zacian-C is banned now - and the prospects of replacing this aren't excellent. The other possible attackers either lack the super-powered STAB attack or the Speed to actually KO stuff - Arceus-Steel is the closest substitute, backed by an unremovable Iron Plate, however the power simply is not comparable (only 5/8 to OHKO Neutral-Natured FC Arceus with plate). The general idea here then is that directly trying to emulate Zacian-C sets on other mons likely just won't be very successful.
This is the team I made with it, generally pretty standard (at least standard for me) and won every game when they didn't know the gimmick.
Groudon @ Earth Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance / Tidy Up
- Precipice Blades
- Toxic
- Strength Sap
Moldy Groudon is great in the current meta I feel. Toxic is generally an excellent tool for wearing down really bulky stuff and Mold Breaker ensures that you bring in that stuff (since you naturally beat Fur Coat Eternatus, most teams' only Toxic absorber). It helps that you're also an Earth Plate +1 Groudon, as +1 Tera Blades is 3/8 to OHKO Neutral-Natured Arceus from full, so the only thing that can really force you out is Imposter (which you can opt to trade Toxic with, or just go to an Improof). Main drawback of this set is having to Imposter-proof it, which is effectively a mandatory Corviknight (since Levitate Steel/Poison or Good as Gold Flying + Ability Shield just doesn't sound very good).
Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Shift Gear
- Wicked Blow
- Psychic
- Axe Kick
This is more of a theorymon that I haven't had much use with so far, but seems relatively sound as a damage dealer. The whole point of Sheer Force here is that it lets Hoopa-U maul two of the most annoying opponents for the Tough Claws set, being Ting-Lu (dies to +1 Axe Kick) and Fur Coat Eternatus (dies to Psychic). The main issues of dire physical bulk and difficulty setting up still persist, and you have less Wicked Blow power so Tera Dark is a requirement to OHKO Arceus with Wicked Blow (and, thanks to meta shifts, Arceus-Ghost isn't as omnipresent so Wicked Blow inherently has less value), but it's basically the same mon as before with a different set of targets and drawbacks.
As for stuff we're doing, we probably need to get some new samples in so feel free to drop potential teams whenever. "They're always open" is pretty shoddy reasoning and doesn't encourage people to post them, but that's about all that can be said for the minute.
Zacian-Crowned @ Iron Plate
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Dark / Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spicy Extract
- Gigaton Hammer
- Substitute / Flower Trick
- Strength Sap
This is partly a meme but partly also a legit set. Spicy Extract gives the target +2 Attack but also -2 Defense, and Opportunist copies the Attack boost, essentially meaning the tech gives you +2 Attack and the target -2 Defense in 1 turn (for an effective 4x damage amp in 1 turn). This is backed up by Iron Plate + Gigaton Hammer, which is sufficient to OHKO everything that isn't a Fur Coat resist (seriously, Impish FC Slaking is 93.8% to instantly drop). Flower Trick bursts past Water-types whereas Sub basically guarantees a KO if you come in on something like a RegenVest user. Now this is all well and good, but Zacian-C is banned now - and the prospects of replacing this aren't excellent. The other possible attackers either lack the super-powered STAB attack or the Speed to actually KO stuff - Arceus-Steel is the closest substitute, backed by an unremovable Iron Plate, however the power simply is not comparable (only 5/8 to OHKO Neutral-Natured FC Arceus with plate). The general idea here then is that directly trying to emulate Zacian-C sets on other mons likely just won't be very successful.
This is the team I made with it, generally pretty standard (at least standard for me) and won every game when they didn't know the gimmick.
Groudon @ Earth Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance / Tidy Up
- Precipice Blades
- Toxic
- Strength Sap
Moldy Groudon is great in the current meta I feel. Toxic is generally an excellent tool for wearing down really bulky stuff and Mold Breaker ensures that you bring in that stuff (since you naturally beat Fur Coat Eternatus, most teams' only Toxic absorber). It helps that you're also an Earth Plate +1 Groudon, as +1 Tera Blades is 3/8 to OHKO Neutral-Natured Arceus from full, so the only thing that can really force you out is Imposter (which you can opt to trade Toxic with, or just go to an Improof). Main drawback of this set is having to Imposter-proof it, which is effectively a mandatory Corviknight (since Levitate Steel/Poison or Good as Gold Flying + Ability Shield just doesn't sound very good).
Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Shift Gear
- Wicked Blow
- Psychic
- Axe Kick
This is more of a theorymon that I haven't had much use with so far, but seems relatively sound as a damage dealer. The whole point of Sheer Force here is that it lets Hoopa-U maul two of the most annoying opponents for the Tough Claws set, being Ting-Lu (dies to +1 Axe Kick) and Fur Coat Eternatus (dies to Psychic). The main issues of dire physical bulk and difficulty setting up still persist, and you have less Wicked Blow power so Tera Dark is a requirement to OHKO Arceus with Wicked Blow (and, thanks to meta shifts, Arceus-Ghost isn't as omnipresent so Wicked Blow inherently has less value), but it's basically the same mon as before with a different set of targets and drawbacks.
As for stuff we're doing, we probably need to get some new samples in so feel free to drop potential teams whenever. "They're always open" is pretty shoddy reasoning and doesn't encourage people to post them, but that's about all that can be said for the minute.
Have people forgotten Comatose exists or something?
It's not banned, just the combo of Comatose + Sleep talk.
It's a great way to stop the ToxicSpam metagame we're going thru atm, and it fits on a decent amount of mons.
Don't have many examples ATM, but I'm running this
Koraidon @ Life Orb
Ability: Comatose
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Collision Course
- Dragon Darts
- Gigaton Hammer
- Flip Turn
It's not banned, just the combo of Comatose + Sleep talk.
It's a great way to stop the ToxicSpam metagame we're going thru atm, and it fits on a decent amount of mons.
Don't have many examples ATM, but I'm running this
Koraidon @ Life Orb
Ability: Comatose
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Collision Course
- Dragon Darts
- Gigaton Hammer
- Flip Turn
The thing is with Comatose, there's always the ability announcing on switch in which can give away information about your team and likely what kind of set you have. Rather, Purifying Salt is a much better ability. Not only does it do the same thing, but it doesn't have the ability announcing and also gives you a Ghost resistance. On the downside, it is capable of being removed via Skill Swap/Entrainment, but overall I'd favor Purifying Salt.
The main problem with Comatose is that, not only does it announce itself, but it also prevents you from running another ability (a concept called Opportunity Cost). Koraidon using Comatose means it can't run another mental ability like Gorilla Tactics or Mold Breaker (which are better even with the status weakness), and the self-announcing means that as soon as Koraidon switches in, my opponent knows they basically never have to worry about direct damage from it (which is a significant drawback).
This also doesn't actually help against Toxic all that much because you're a Koraidon (bad defensive typing) with no recovery + Life Orb and no wats to inflict passive damage. This is in most cases just going to accomplish nothing and die.
Magic Guard is OK but I think a lot of these sets can be improved upon. Chief among these is the random special attacks on Slaking and Palafin which do almost nothing, and in general you'd be wanting a much stronger option like Victory Dance (or for Slaking, Coil + Population Bomb) instead, as you're generally getting much more utility out of these. Having these Special attacks removes some specific checks but opens up a much wider array of different checks because you don't have setup. Palkia-O also just straight up wants Nasty Plot instead of Eruption (Desolate Land Fairy-types aren't common enough to warrant a whole moveslot). A lot of these are also carrying Flare Blitz, which is cool and all but V-create is almost just objectively better because of the damage boost (even considering lowering your own stats).Hello everyone, with this post, I hope to enlighten you on one of the most underrated abilities in the format; Magic Guard. If you don't know, this ability lets you become immune to all passive sources of damage such as status, hazards, recoil and DOT moves like Salt Cure and Infestation. With the nerfs to most recovery moves and ban on Poison Heal, I believe this is the best ability to sustain your mons next to Regenerator. Now I want to make one thing very clear; this is not an ability that you want to put on passive walls like Dondozo or Ting-lu. You are much better off running RegenVest or FurScales in that case. The best way to use this ability is to run it on offensive mons such as those shown below. The reason for this is because these mons are able to take advantage of the recoil nullification component of the ability. Not only do you have access to high-pp, damage and accurate moves like Double-Edge and Flare Blitz, you also ignore Life Orb recoil. Not only that, because you are able to preserve your hp due to ignoring all passive damage, hp-based moves like Dragon Energy, Water Spout and Eruption become consistently strong. As a side note, moves like Chloroblast and Mind Blown also lose their hp demerit through the latter is currently unavailable. These factors in conjunction with Strength Sap turns your mons into incredibly resilient and hard-hitting tank-nukes. Another important factor that makes these sorts of mon so good is the lack of EV limit in this format. In other formats, most mons have difficulty being a tank and dealing damage, for example defensive Clefable and LO Clefable in OU are two completely different sets. But because of legendaries' high natural BST, they can fulfil both roles at once. Magic Guard is one of the few rare abilities that is good both offensively and defensively which is complemented by all mons having access to max EVs on all stats. If you have not already, I recommend trying one of the sets below and see for yourself how well they perform. Note that Victory Dance is also very viable if you are looking for a win condition but personally I have not tested it yet.
I recommend picking a STAB, Strength Sap, coverage and either another coverage or utility move. Flare Blitz was great when Zacian was popular but now maybe you don't need it. It's bad vs Palkia and Miraidon but good vs Zamazenta and steel/grassceus though they're uncommon. If you wanna hit FC Groudon/dondozo hard you can go for Chloroblast. Wave Crash/Volt Tackle also work but it doesn't hit both. Dragon Energy might seem weird on physical attackers but it hits dragons and Giratina which is good. For the last slot you can pick another coverage or your choice of utility move. This includes Ceaseless Edge, Knock Off, Toxic, Nuzzle, Wisp, etc. Alternatively you can also run Victory Dance or Tidy Up if you need a set up mon.
Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Flare Blitz
- Ceaseless Edge / Chloroblast / Volt Tackle
- Strength Sap
Palafin-Hero @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Wave Crash
- Flare Blitz
- Volt Tackle / Ceaseless Edge / Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Energy
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Strength Sap
Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Dragon Energy
- Eruption
- Strength Sap
Dialga-Origin @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steel Beam
- Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap
- Eruption
Don Bozo
Banned deucer.
I think V-create is a viable alternative to Flare Blitz but wouldn't necessarily call it an upgrade. The thing is, for mons like Slaking and Palafin, they have an amazing speed tier because there are so many legendary mons at the 90-95 range. Dropping your speed means you might not outspend them which might make you miss a 2HKO. Eg you v-create as they switch into a Giratina, Dialga or Groudon. Now you can't outspend them and is forced to switch because they have Strength Sap. Meanwhile if you have Flare Blitz, you can just 2HKO them with your coverage move. Furthermore, the PP and burn chance of Flare Blitz is surprisingly relevant. You can outstall Strength Sap with 24 PP as opposed to only 8. Now I do agree that the additional damage of V-create matters in some cases (like OHKOing Zamazenta instead of doing only 70) but I think you're overlooking the severity of the speed drop and PP limit of that move compared to Flare Blitz. I haven't even touched on the defence drops but that also forces you to switch out more often instead of tanking a hit and attacking them back. Nasty plot is also another move I can see being good. Apart from the stabs and Sap on palkia and dialga you can run whatever since most of the time you're gonna click the stab move or Sap. Eruption is just there as a filler and is definitely replaceable. Heck, you can even run Heal Bell, Knock Off or High Jump Kick for regenvest dialga/goodra if you want.
252 Atk Life Orb Palkia-Origin High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking in Electric Terrain: 420-495 (83.3 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Groudon Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 424-501 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Beads of Ruin Palkia Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 448-528 (88.8 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Groudon Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 424-501 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Beads of Ruin Palkia Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 448-528 (88.8 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree regarding your point that the special moves on physical mons "do almost nothing" and "opens up a much wider array of different checks because you don't have setup." I don't really like posting a walk of calcs but I have pit some below to show that these special moves on physical attackers are not a joke. The fact of the matter is, if your opponent is forced to switch out to their wall, that wall will most likely be a Fur Coat mon with Haze, Strength Sap or both. If they have either of these moves, your victory dance is the useless move. Even at +2, you're not gonna 2HKO a Fur Coat Dondozo, Giratina or Groudon with a physical move unless they're already chipped. At +1 they'll easily tank 2 hits even if they're only at 70%. The fact of the matter is, unless people stop running Fur Coat walls, using special moves on your physical attackers is the best way to break them. If you inspect the calcs below you'll see that at full health, you can do at least 90% with a physical move followed by a special move on FC Groudon and Dondozo. FC Giratina and Arceus are slightly harder to break because they have better mixed bulk but they still take 50% from super-effective Dragon Energy or Chloroblast. I think that you're severely underestimating the value of mixed sets in the current meta. Once again, unless Fur Coat drops off in popularity (which it might because of the Zac ban, don't get me wrong) then special coverage moves are better than set-up moves. The only reason I would run setup moves on these mons is if I already have other wallbreakers that can deal with FC. In that case then alright, we can setup and sweep. Comparatively speaking however mixed mons are better at breaking Fur Coat walls than pure phys mons.
252 Atk Life Orb Slaking Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus-Water: 140-166 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 85.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Water: 239-283 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Slaking Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Groudon: 86-101 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon: 291-343 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Slaking Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 195-230 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 354-419 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 239-283 (47.4 - 56.1%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Slaking Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Palkia-Origin: 235-278 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia-Origin: 239-283 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Water: 239-283 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Slaking Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Groudon: 86-101 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon: 291-343 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Slaking Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 195-230 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 354-419 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 239-283 (47.4 - 56.1%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Slaking Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Palkia-Origin: 235-278 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Slaking Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia-Origin: 239-283 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Palafin-Hero Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dondozo: 133-156 (26.3 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 382-450 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Palafin-Hero Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Palkia-Origin: 157-186 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 257-304 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia-Origin: 257-304 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Palkia calc is similar for other dragons like Koraidon, Miraidon and Eternatus and Rayquaza. Varies from 63-80% depending on the bulk.
252 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Chloroblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 382-450 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Palafin-Hero Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Palkia-Origin: 157-186 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 257-304 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia-Origin: 257-304 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Palkia calc is similar for other dragons like Koraidon, Miraidon and Eternatus and Rayquaza. Varies from 63-80% depending on the bulk.
I dont think I need to post calcs to show that stab Dragon Energy is a good move on Rayquaza since ray has 150/150 mixed attack, but I'll do it anyways to show how good DE + BB + FB is. I'll say that ray is the least fast and bulky but the strongest compared to slaking and palafin in terms if wallbreaking especially now that Zac is gone.
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 129-152 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Goodra-Hisui: 149-177 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon: 300-355 (74.2 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Energy (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia-Origin: 398-468 (103.6 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Again, ray OHKOs all offensive dragons even at 80%
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 129-152 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Goodra-Hisui: 149-177 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon: 300-355 (74.2 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Energy (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia-Origin: 398-468 (103.6 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Again, ray OHKOs all offensive dragons even at 80%
Last edited:
I think you've missed my point completely with the special moves thing. I'm not denying that running special moves is a potential way to break past Fur Coat stuff, since mixed attackers are generally just good. The point i'm making is that running a special move instead of setup opens up a much wider array of things that can check you, as you aren't able to actually pressure them with Attack and Speed boosts. If you take Slaking for example, running say Chloroblast helps you cook Fur Coat Dondozo and Groudon but not having setup means you simply cannot threaten Eternatus, Zacian, Miraidon, Palkia-O, and every Arceus - in most cases this simply is not a worthwile trade, especially when team support options help negate these Fur Coat walls without having to give up moveslots on the MGuard mon. Tera also makes special coverage worse as it can randomly go from hitting one mon on the other team to hitting zero, leaving you with a dead moveslot instead of a potential game-winner later on.
I also think the Flare Blitz point is just sort of wrong. Your action is inconsequential against Giratina regardless of which move you're running because it's a Fire move into Giratina, and Dialga usually runs minimum Speed / basically never has Strength Sap. This essentailly leaves the only things in the range where the Speed drop matters as Palafin, Slaking, and Groudon - all of which are simply hit harder by your regular STAB anyway, so there's no need or reason to click the Fire move fullstop (so the Speed drop isn't an important factor). It's almost always been the case that the raw damage of V-create has been valued over any other alternative even despite the Speed drop (even on Speed-reliant sweepers like Tough Claws Zacian or Shift Gear Ho-Oh last gen) because the 50% damage boost is simply too much to give up. There's going to be almost no case where Flare Blitz not dropping your Speed is relevant, as if you're clicking the Fire move over your main STAB, it's almost certain that you're either hard-walled (the move will not matter in this case) or the target is Fire-weak and getting blasted by V-create. Almost all attackers have a reliable 120BP or more STAB move which matches V-create's effective Base Power, so you simply aren't needing to click V-create (and thus sustain the stat drops) against anything not weak to it.