Yes, so you can use a different arceus.
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Xerneas
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Sorry if this is the wrong spot, but would this be a nice xerneas to keep?
Xerneas, Modest, capable of taking hits, 197/126/115/166/118/119
Thanks for any help
Xerneas, Modest, capable of taking hits, 197/126/115/166/118/119
Thanks for any help
How about a prankster memento?
Whimsicott is not entirely useless as annoyer. It could switch in on the geomancy, memento out, leaving your check free to come in against a Xernas now lacking such massive offense, at least.
Switching out would actually be worse for them, as the switch-in would be crippled and they've lost the herb anyway. Sure you sacrifice a Pokemon, but maybe it t-waved something earlier or something useful.
just a thought.
Whimsicott is not entirely useless as annoyer. It could switch in on the geomancy, memento out, leaving your check free to come in against a Xernas now lacking such massive offense, at least.
Switching out would actually be worse for them, as the switch-in would be crippled and they've lost the herb anyway. Sure you sacrifice a Pokemon, but maybe it t-waved something earlier or something useful.
just a thought.
For future reference, these are the threads you are looking for:
Simple Questions / Simple Answers - XY Style
Simple Questions/Requests - Mark 29 (Minor Pokemon Trades, Item Requests, etc GO HERE)
That said, your Xerneas looks overall fine. The imperfect HP is a bummer and may not be benificial for surviving CB-Scizor's Bullet Punch. Since Setut-Xerneas will probably not running max speed, you probably can shove the rest into Def for survivability.
Which brings us back to the speed tiers. A pure cleaner set would probably only run 116 EVs for 263 speed to outrun Latios at after Geomancy - something Cloyster would be envy of because it misses the benchmark by 1 point.
Still, if the calcs are correct it manages to KO 0/0 Kyurem-W without setting up. It may be immune to its nuke, but a Specs Ice Beam still puts a dent into its uninvested SDef. 224 EVs are necessary to outrun the base 95.
And then there is Genesect, who is scarfed most of the time anyways.
What do you guys think? Is it worth the risk to run 116 speed instead of 224? If you put the rest into Def, the fast one will be OHKOed by CB-Scizor over 50% of the times after SR, the bulkier one only 6,25% of the times.
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I would go even lower and use Modest with 152 Def/252 SpA/104 Spe, this ensures that it will always survive Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch after Stealth Rock, it will put it above Choice Scarf Terrakion and just below Neutral/192 SpE Excadrill in Sandstorm which will most likely go higher anyway just to always outspeed Xerneas so it can kill it with Iron Head. After a Geomancy I do not think Latios is much of a threat to +2 SpD Xerneas so 116 EVs could be lowered to 104 EVs. It really depends on what people are going to use to beat Xerneas. If Scizor is a real problem, 152 Def will be pretty much a must, otherwise i suspect that indeed 32 Def/252 SpA/224 SpE will be the most popular choice.
We think is probably wiser to outspeed Latios because it can be harmful in some way - blame Psyshock for bypassing the Geomancy.
If the 6,25% of being OHKOed by Scizor really hurts, 'may' it be an option to pull 12 EVs from SAtk in order to both survive Scizor and to outspeed Latios. The spread pretty much will be 152 Def/240 SpA/116 Spe. Just maybe, because we do not know how many KOes are affected by that.
If the 6,25% of being OHKOed by Scizor really hurts, 'may' it be an option to pull 12 EVs from SAtk in order to both survive Scizor and to outspeed Latios. The spread pretty much will be 152 Def/240 SpA/116 Spe. Just maybe, because we do not know how many KOes are affected by that.
Tried him and fought against him it's the most broken pokemon in the game should be banned from Ubers it isn't fun :/ he gets a boosted STAB and *2 quiver dance only for a moveslot and he is quite bulky that thing is too broken it's not fun :/ to win or to lose with him on the tier.. Yvetal got a normal signature move XD.
Why not? Dialga gets Fire Blast and Earth Power, doesn't he?
Just because YOU don't have anything that can counter him it doesn't mean he should be banned. Instead of complaining that something is too hard, why don't you try to find a way around it? If people had this kind of mindset when ExtremeKiller Arceus first started running rampant, no one would have ever discovered counters to him. It's not like they don't exist-- Prankster Banette's Destiny Bond is the main technique a lot of people are using nowadays, for instance, and I'm sure there are others.
Wut?
You want Smogon to ban Xerneas from a ban list? How does that make sense?
And don't point out Moody, as that kind of fit under Evasion Clause. Also, that's an ability that turned battles into luck based affairs, which Smogon has stated that is not OK. Xerneas is just really good.
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, and I'm not great with EV's to counter specific threats, but what about running a bulky set-up sweeper? Come in on a resisted move (assuming the opponent doesn't predict the switch, which is admittedly a large assumption), use a PH Geomancy and then just sweep.
Nature would probably be Modest, EV's would be something with 252 SpA and some spread to provide some bulk.
Moves somewhere along the lines of:
Geomancy
Moonblast
Psystrike (to work through Special Walls and provide coverage against one of Xerneas's weaknesses)
*Insert silver bullet coverage move here* (probably Focus Miss)
Obviously, there's the issue of CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, so the defensive EV's would have to take that into account. As originally stated, Arceus Formes, Dialga, Genesect, Ferrothorn, Aegislash, and a few other Pokemon (maybe some other notable Steel types, like Jirachi or Heatran, depending on how well they take a +2 anything off of Xerneas's maxed Special Attack) will all probably have their ways to hit Xerneas as well. We won't really know for sure until a metagame is established, but I'm personally hoping a bulky Xerneas could be viable.
Nature would probably be Modest, EV's would be something with 252 SpA and some spread to provide some bulk.
Moves somewhere along the lines of:
Geomancy
Moonblast
Psystrike (to work through Special Walls and provide coverage against one of Xerneas's weaknesses)
*Insert silver bullet coverage move here* (probably Focus Miss)
Obviously, there's the issue of CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, so the defensive EV's would have to take that into account. As originally stated, Arceus Formes, Dialga, Genesect, Ferrothorn, Aegislash, and a few other Pokemon (maybe some other notable Steel types, like Jirachi or Heatran, depending on how well they take a +2 anything off of Xerneas's maxed Special Attack) will all probably have their ways to hit Xerneas as well. We won't really know for sure until a metagame is established, but I'm personally hoping a bulky Xerneas could be viable.
Snogon should _______ Geomancy from Uber. Can someone tell me how to stop a Xerneas that has already used Geomancy without using Aegislash or relying on Focus Blast to miss given that SR is on your field?
1. Arceus-Poison? Psyshock.
2. Chansey? Substitute.
3. Scouting out it's move? You already lost.
You can phaze it out? It might not have the benefit of PH anymore but it still have Fairy Aura Stab Moonblast, respectable bulk and Dragon immunity.
What?! Genesect? Dialga? Ferrothorn? How about a Focus Blast to the face?
Come again? Attack Xerneas the turn it sets up, sacrifice a mon, and revenge with priority? Good luck, hope Xerneas is in range of Ekiller's ES.
This same issue cropped up with Wobbufett a few gens back, as it could trap and kill almost anything it wanted to. And Water Spout Kyogre demolished tons of pokemon, even those that resisted. Ubers has never been balanced, and banning a pokemon or move from it just doesn't make much sense. It's a banlist first, a tier second.
I never said anything about ban. ______ can be any verb. Can you give me an answer to the question that you quoted. Latias and Palkia exist as two solid counters to Kyogre. Wobbufett cannot sweep an entire team. Smogon already have complex _______. There is a first for everything.
There's little, if any, way to counter Xerneas. You can Encore him with a Prankster pokemon after the Geomancy, and hit him while he's wasting turns. Or, you can use Topsy-Turvy SOMEHOW and reverse those gains. He's a hard pokemon to deal with, so far it seems.
Oh god are we seriously having another OMGWTFXERNEAS2OPBANBANBAN discussions again? Please no. Xerneas has its fair share of checks (nothing really counters a well played xerneas) and yes it is absurdly powerful but it is possible to deal with it. I see no reason on why you would ban xerneas just because you're incapable of handling it.
Moody was retarded as hell. Being able to just spam dive/dig/shadow force/sub/protect till you rack up enough boosts to win/pass and the only solid way to stop it being perish song.
OHKO: quick claw + ohko moves = gg no re. High risk, high return moves that instantly make switching anything that posesses one of these ohko moves impossible to switch into.
Sleep Clause: Fucking butterfree/venogod.
Overall the only bans we had were those that were completely uncompetitive and took 0 skill and just put a massive luck factor even more so than we're used to.
Please be more informed. Neither latias nor palkia are what I would call a solid "counter", counter being defined as something that can switch into a mon and either ko/force it out every single time. Neither of which kia nor latias can do against common kyogre sets. Specs ogre 2hko's kia with thunder, and 2hko's latias with ice beam. Overall your arguments are weak and don't have any basis.
Moody was retarded as hell. Being able to just spam dive/dig/shadow force/sub/protect till you rack up enough boosts to win/pass and the only solid way to stop it being perish song.
OHKO: quick claw + ohko moves = gg no re. High risk, high return moves that instantly make switching anything that posesses one of these ohko moves impossible to switch into.
Sleep Clause: Fucking butterfree/venogod.
Overall the only bans we had were those that were completely uncompetitive and took 0 skill and just put a massive luck factor even more so than we're used to.
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@ Jimmy: But obviously _______________ can't just be anything, because you just said "Smogon already have complex ____________", which can literally only refer to the word ban. I mean, that can't exactly mean "Smogon already have complex do-not bans" now, can it? Just because you don't directly say it, doesn't mean you're not implying it :/
Also, just to reiterate what Ckarasu said: Ubers is a banlist. Pokemon that are too powerful for standard play (OU) are banned to ubers. The only bans that we have ever had in ubers were generally related to aspects of the game making it uncompetitive/ luck based for various reasons (i.e. OHKO moves and moody). That said, I think there's just a lot of gen 6 hype going around at the moment and people are over-rating things (this happens literally every time a new gen comes out). When the sims are fully up-and-running I think we'll see that Xerneas isn't going to destroy the tier to such an extent that we'd have to break precedent and ban it from Ubers. Like, I really highly strongly doubt that will be the case.
Also, just to reiterate what Ckarasu said: Ubers is a banlist. Pokemon that are too powerful for standard play (OU) are banned to ubers. The only bans that we have ever had in ubers were generally related to aspects of the game making it uncompetitive/ luck based for various reasons (i.e. OHKO moves and moody). That said, I think there's just a lot of gen 6 hype going around at the moment and people are over-rating things (this happens literally every time a new gen comes out). When the sims are fully up-and-running I think we'll see that Xerneas isn't going to destroy the tier to such an extent that we'd have to break precedent and ban it from Ubers. Like, I really highly strongly doubt that will be the case.
FrostFire All I'm saying is that after 12 pages of discussion there are very few, if any, counters to Geomancer. If your playing against a skilled player, its highly likely you have to sacrifice something to check Geomancer. Or use some obscure Pokemon that are unviable in Uber.
I never said we should _______ Xerneas from Uber, I said we should _______ Geomancy or rather Geomancy + Power Herb.
And yes, _________ can be anything. For example, Smogon already have complex strategies. Smogon should make an analysis for Xerneas from Uber.
I never said we should _______ Xerneas from Uber, I said we should _______ Geomancy or rather Geomancy + Power Herb.
And yes, _________ can be anything. For example, Smogon already have complex strategies. Smogon should make an analysis for Xerneas from Uber.
Knocking off the Power Herb (Deoxys?) is a possible strategy too.
Embargo will also prevent it from using the Power Herb for 5 turns and you don't have to hit Xerneas.
Of course, some will balk at running these moves and would rather ban from the ban list.
But this is the entire point of Ubers. Testing your mettle against broken mons.
Embargo will also prevent it from using the Power Herb for 5 turns and you don't have to hit Xerneas.
Of course, some will balk at running these moves and would rather ban from the ban list.
But this is the entire point of Ubers. Testing your mettle against broken mons.
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I've tried a using a bulky RestTalk set, running
Xerneas@leftovers
252 HP, 252 Def, 4 Spd
Bold
-Moonblast
-Calm Mind
-Sleep Talk
-Rest
and it has worked pretty well so far, with that investment you can avoid the 2HKO from Genesect's Iron Head (no attack boost) and 2HKO back so long as you have 1 or more boost(s). I haven't tested it since the ladders fairly new, but I feel like its possible to make a good set that not bulky out of Xerneas. Though, even with maximum investment, CB bullet punch is still going to have a chance to 2HKO.
(calculations for reference)
252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 186-218 (39.91 - 46.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 240-284 (51.5 - 60.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OK, let me rephrase why I have a problem with '____________'. You're talking about how powerful Xerneas is, how the Geomancy set has few/ if any counters etc - so you clearly have an opinion. But when you refuse to state your opinion by saying "I think we should ___________ Geomancy or rather Geomancy + Power Herb" then this makes it impossible for me to debate against your point. If you have an opinion, it's common courtesy (really a logical necessity) to state it.
If _____________ means anything, can I assume that you mean "I think we should not ban Geomancy..."? And if you say "well, it can mean anything" - then what is the point in posting? Tell me, when you say "I said we should _______ Geomancy or rather Geomancy + Power Herb", what are you trying to tell me? What was the communicative purpose of this line in your post?
There are approximately three positions you can take; you can say that Xerneas is OP, you can say it's totally fine, or you can sit on the fence somewhere in between and acknowledge the arguments of both sides. The reason why people are assuming that __________ means 'ban' is because saying in one breath that Xerneas is nigh uncounterable, and then proceeding to say "I don't think we should ban it" doesn't seem to make sense in terms of the logical progression of your argument.
Apologies if this isn't really the place to be discussing this.
Garchompi
Banned deucer.
The argument that "ubers is just a banlist" is old-fashioned. Since it has its own metagame, unlike BL, it's definitely more than a banlist.
Xerneas itself is not broken, however the dreaded Power Herb+Geomancy set forces you to run unorthodox counters by ubers standards - the very fact Destiny Bond M-Banette is even being mentioned as one of its most reliable checks should give you an idea of how centralizing it is.
This is reminiscent of the time where people would seriously consider running things such as physically defensive Cloyster to deal with Garchomp in DPP and Hail Jellicent to deal with Drizzle+Swift Swim in BW, except now this is ubers and not OU.
The question here is: is it acceptable to being forced to run specific counters to deal with just one set from one pokemon? Not even Kyogre and Extremekiller Arceus were so centralizing.
Xerneas itself is not broken, however the dreaded Power Herb+Geomancy set forces you to run unorthodox counters by ubers standards - the very fact Destiny Bond M-Banette is even being mentioned as one of its most reliable checks should give you an idea of how centralizing it is.
This is reminiscent of the time where people would seriously consider running things such as physically defensive Cloyster to deal with Garchomp in DPP and Hail Jellicent to deal with Drizzle+Swift Swim in BW, except now this is ubers and not OU.
The question here is: is it acceptable to being forced to run specific counters to deal with just one set from one pokemon? Not even Kyogre and Extremekiller Arceus were so centralizing.
Lol, the argument that 'Ubers is a banlist' is not old-fashioned because it's the truth. Fact is that in Ubers we've never banned any single Pokemon and it'll remain that way in XY too. This is a tier where a Pokemon is used on 50% of teams and many considered it balanced. You can try to justify that PH Geomancy is broken all you want but you won't change Ubers policy anytime soon.
Well, not that I want to get involved in this debate at all, but I feel that it's important to mention that Kyogre's omnipresent rain and obscenely powerful Water Sport have served to singlehandedly define the Ubers metagame for the past three Gens, and many a 'mon were considered for Ubers because of their ability to counter it or lack therof. Just look at Dry-Skin Jynx. Yes, Lovely Kiss, Nasty Plot, and STAB Ice Beam are nice to keep a lot of Ubers Pokemon in check (ALL DEM DRAGONS AND FLYERS), but how viable do you think she would really be without being able to switch in on Choice Kyogre?
Anyway, I feel that yes, being forced to use particular sets and counters just to handle one set on a Pokemon is a bit ridiculous, but it's happened before with Kyogre, and PH Geomancy Xerneas may be the next to go that route.
Hmmm... that does look pretty effective... My only question is, would Fairy-Arceus running a similar RestTalk set overshadow this particular one on Xerneas? On one hand, Fairy-Arceus is a bit bulkier, with another 20-25 or so points in each defense, and only a small drop in HP, and improved speed. However, Xerneas DOES have better Special Attack and Fairy Aura beefing up it's STAB Moonblast even further...
Again, I feel as though it's best to wait for an emerging metagame to decide just how viable or broken a set is, before we start calling for bans or arguing over what's more effective. Theorymon is never the best way to go, especially with all the new, untested things brought to the table by Gen VI.
Edit: Also, I'm new here (my avatar is a freakin' Grimer for cryin' out loud) and don't know how to put who said what in my quotes, so if anyone would like to help me out, I'd be glad to work out a deal giving you my firstborn or something.
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