Project Victim of the Week: ZU Edition

Should I ban Shedninja to the blacklist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 71.4%
  • No

    Votes: 4 28.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

Cheezy

ripples on a blank shore
is a Top Tiering Contributor
u can only vote for klang as a counter, but if you don’t want it to win you don’t have to vote at all
 

Cheezy

ripples on a blank shore
is a Top Tiering Contributor
Winners

:bellossom: Checks :bellossom:
User​
Pokemon​
Submission​
:ss/ivysaur:

:bellossom: Counters :bellossom:
User​
Pokemon​
Submission​
:ss/klang:
:ss/lampent:

Checks
Ivysaur - 5
Fraxure - 2
Silvally-Ice - 2
Sliggoo - 1
Vespiquen - 1

Counters
Klang - 5
Lampent - 5


Week 4

Stonjourner
:ss/stonjourner:

Stonjourner @ Life Orb
Ability: Power Spot
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Heat Crash
- Earthquake
- Self-Destruct

Voting starts Thursday, September 10​
 
Last edited:
:Bw/Hippopotas:
Hippopotas @ Eviolite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Whirlwind
- Earthquake/Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off

Most people check the underated stuff for counters however Hippo is right here and with slack off it completely Counters Lo Stonjourner It easily switches in to any attack and can slack off,set up rocks,Inflict Toxic or just attack with Eq. This also punishes the Stonjourner user for switching as eq and rocks hurt most things immune to sandstorm while everything that can get hit by sandstorm gets chipped alongside taking rocks and while you can regain health.
Whirlwind is there to completely shut down any setup sweeper your opponent switches out into as well as to inflict more rocks and sandstorm damage. While toxic can be used to beat any bulky walls like Vibrava or Palpitoed that stand in your way.
:CALCULATIONS:
4 Atk Hippopotas Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stonjourner: 128-152 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 94-110 (27.6 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 155-183 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 78-92 (22.9 - 27%) -- 47.5% chance to 4HKO
 
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Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
:ss/pyukumuku:
Pyukumuku @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soak
- Toxic
- Recover
- Block

pyukumuku is a counter

252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 125-148 (39.8 - 47.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner (Water-type) Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 83-99 (26.4 - 31.5%)
you can recover stall it and toxic it. stone edge into self-destruct is a roll to kill, but you've technically beaten it so i call that a win
 
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:bw/raichu:
Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
Raichu is an check to stonjourner, since it can ohko him with grass knot if it can switch in.​
 
:ss/wartortle:
TheOnlyStonCounter (Wartortle) @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Seismic Toss
- Scald
- Flip turn / Toxic / Life dew / Protect
All the four moves n last slot are good picks on wartortle. What u use on it purely depends on your team's requirement. You may run fipturn for pivoting which is also what I personally prefer. Or you may run toxic if you have deficiency on mons with toxic on yourteam. On the contrary you could run life dew for some little recovery if you really want to provide a little longeivity.
Or if somehow you actually are considering self destruct which I didn't cuz this is just a utility mon, you could protect on it.

Ok so this is a utility set of wartortle. I have been using this set with max SpD for a pretty long time and it has been doing a very good job to be honest. However I recently noticed that we have lots of CHECKS for stonjourner but very few COUNTERS. So I opened the showdown calc and found that with slight alterations, this is a perfect counter to it. Also even if u decide to raise the def and use very little spd investment, it still doesn't get OHKOed by even specs raichu and dedenne thunderbolt. On the contrary, by running my old spread with 252hp/252+ spd/4 def, wartortle still acts like a check to stonjourner. I will be adding only stonjourner related calculations right now, but if asked I can add the overall calcs with elecs and grasses too.

NOTE:
The reason why I mentioned all that non ston stuff as well is that I think when we think of a counter or check, it should also function outside the given threat and serve as a benefitial addition to one of the 6 slots on a team.

CALCULATIONS:
1) Counter
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Wartortle: 122-146 (37.8 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Wartortle Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stonjourner: 372-438 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
2) Check
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Wartortle: 165-196 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3) max def calcs
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Wartortle: 114-136 (35.4 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Wartortle: 153-181 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
(so as u can see above. 1 edge of switchin + 1 self destruct doesn't kill it. end of chapter.)
 
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1599519126369.png

Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

Not only does heavy slam into self destruct fail to kill but it also can't 3hko machoke no matter what it clicks which makes Machoke a hard counter.
 
One of the biggest issues with Stonjourner right now is its set unpredictability between sets. You might think your offensive check can beat it, but what if it's Scarf? Defensively scouting sets can be dangerous too, as you might find your defensive check chunked hard by Band.

:ss/dedenne:
Dedenne @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cheek Pouch
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch

Scarf Dedenne is a cute mon that doesn't need to worry about Scarf Ston in the speed war. One of the most important aspects of Dedenne is that Scarf Grass Knot will still always OHKO even in Sand, as Hippopotas' surge in popularity means that sometimes Ston comes in with a SpDef boost. This is one of two things that sets Dedenne apart from other offensive checks against Ston, with the second being a STAB pivoting move that chunks Ston hard and maintains momentum. Obviously this is an offensive check, as Dedenne cannot switch in on any move Ston has.

252 SpA Dedenne Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stonjourner: 328-387 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Dedenne Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stonjourner: 582-686 (170.6 - 201.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Dedenne Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stonjourner in Sand: 390-460 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Dedenne Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stonjourner: 255-301 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

OranBerryBlissey10

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
:ss/Greedent:
Greedent @ Ganlon Berry
Ability: Cheek Pouch
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stuff Cheeks
- Body Press
- Crunch
- Rest

This set can eat anything ston can throw at it (even lives Stone Edge into Selfdestruct), eats its berry if it hasn't proc'd yet, which gives it the necessary health and defense to safely rest on ston in both cases. Crunch is for ghosts and can win stall matchups with defense drops. Body Press is its main source of damage, and a good one at that. This set is useful as a blanket check as well and can help with other threats like Gourgeist or Klang. Greedent is technically a counter, but since a berry is single use and stone edge crits can get hairy, I'm more inclined to call it a good check.

252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 153-183 (34.4 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 205-242 (46.1 - 54.5%)

252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 103-122 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 138-162 (31 - 36.4%)

252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 64-75 (14.4 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Greedent: 83-99 (18.6 - 22.2%)

+1 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Def Greedent Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 296-350 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I'm surprised no one snagged Vibrava yet, the ston set doesn't have Heavy Slam so should be a counter.
 
:bw/vibrava:
Vibrava @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Defog
- U-turn
- Scorching Sands
- Roost​
I'm taking Vibrava back (sorry ivy still love you)

Vibrava is a top tier counter to Stonjourner with a good defensive typing with many resistances and immunities . Although vibrava is less bulky than other counters such as Hippopotas, Palpitoad and machoke, Stonjourner can use coverage moves vs them to do more damage whereas coverage moves do less to vibrava than stone edge (heavy slam doesn't exist). Another pro to vibrava is being immune to spikes and t spikes whereas other counters like hippo and palp dont like getting poisoned. Vibrava also has reliable recovery in roost so can switch into Stonjourner multiples times.
Vibrava can fire back at Stonjourner with scorching sands which has a chance to ohko after rocks and will always ohko after rocks + 1 life orb recoil

Negatives of Vibrava is that its not as good the other counters at just being a normal mon on the team. Hippopotas, Palpitoad and machoke and all higher on the VR than Vibrava and are generally more usefull to have as a teammate, although Vibrava is cuter :). Vibrava is not bad though as it is a solid defensive defogger and offers a slow u turn into your offensive threats. Also scorching sand makes it a bit passive but the 30% burn chance will make your opponents think twice before switchin in. Also Vibrava has a chance to die to stone edge + selfdestruct however a B- mon for a S rank trade is worth it in my book.
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vibrava: 74-88 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Palpitoad: 95-113 (26.8 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 94-110 (27.6 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Vibrava Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stonjourner: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
reserving the toad (palpitoad)

:bw/palpitoad:
Palpitoad @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Palpitoad is a "stone wall" counter to Ston... He dont take to much from all his attack and EQ + Selfdestruc doenst even has a chance to KO Toad.
Calc:
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Palpitoad: 190-224 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Palpitoad: 95-113 (26.8 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Palpitoad: 70-84 (19.7 - 23.7%) -- possible 5HKO

also both STAB OHKO Ston tranks to his patetic spdef
4 SpA Palpitoad Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stonjourner: 372-440 (109 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Palpitoad Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stonjourner: 420-494 (123.1 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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:Hakamo-o:

Hakamo-o @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic /sleep talk
- Taunt /rest
- Dragon Tail
- Drain Punch

I propose defensive hakamo-o as a really hard check to this set, beating stonjourner in most scenarios and at least forcing a trade.

hakamo-o is one of the best phazers in the tiers, and with a physically bulky set it can easily switch into stonjourner. Toxic + taunt are good for overcoming defensive threats, but they can be dropped with resttalk on stall for reliable recovery. It effectively counters non self-destruct variants thanks to drain punch recovery and lo damage on the opponent, but selfdestruct stonjourner at 100% health has a really small chance to force a trade on an hakamo-o swithcin. Bulk up with this spread could probably be a full counter but I'm not advocating for it because bulk-up hakamo-o should have 252+ spd.
Here's some calcs:

0 Atk Hakamo-o Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 10.3% chance to 3HKO (16.2 - 19.1% recovered)
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hakamo-o: 71-84 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- 34.1% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hakamo-o: 142-168 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO
If stonjourner isn't fully healthy it won't survive 2 drain punches, considering the 30% LO damage.
If it has 100% health best play of the stonjourner player (excluding switching out) should be eartquake on an hakamo-o switchin, then 2 quakes + selfdestruct, but that would need extra good rolls even with SR up, considering drain punch recovery.
Max damage of 3 earthquakes (no crits) - 2 drain punch recoveries: 47.7%.
Mean damage of 3 quakes (no crits) - 2 drain punch recoveries: 38.6.
Mean damage of 3 quakes (one crit) - 2 drain punch recoveries: 50.9.

Rest hakamo-o could theoretically come out fully healthy (but asleep) from the stonjourner matchup if correctly predicting selfdestruct, but such a prediction is not that likely because most stonjourners run something else as 4th move (sr, rock polish, heavy slam).
Speaking of heavy slam
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hakamo-o: 95-112 (30.2 - 35.6%)
even adamant stonjourner with the best coverage fails to 3HKO hakamo-o (considering drain punch recovery).
 

Cheezy

ripples on a blank shore
is a Top Tiering Contributor

:ss/mudbray:

Mudbray can take multiple hits from Stonjourner while gaining defense boosts from Stamina. It can also rest off the damage while letting the Stonjourner kill itself from LO recoil.

Mudbray @ Eviolite
Impish Nature
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Rest

252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 83-99 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 56-66 (16.2 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 43-51 (12.5 - 14.8%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 34-40 (9.8 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 166-196 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 110-131 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 83-99 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 66-79 (19.1 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
4 Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 168-200 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO


:stonjourner: Checks :stonjourner:
User​
Pokemon​
Submission​
:ss/raichu:
:sm/dedenne:
:ss/greedent:
:ss/hakamo-o:

:stonjourner: Counters :stonjourner:
User​
Pokemon​
Submission​
:ss/hippopotas:
:ss/pyukumuku:
:ss/wartortle:
kay
:ss/machoke:
:ss/vibrava:
:ss/palpitoad:
:ss/mudbray:
Defensive Mudbray​

Vote for one check and one counter

My vote:
Pyuku and Dedenne

Voting ends Monday, September 14

also idk why but for some reason the second table above is out of shape


 
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:ss/mudbray:

Mudbray can take multiple hits from Stonjourner while gaining defense boosts from Stamina. It can also rest off the damage while letting the Stonjourner kill itself from LO recoil.

Mudbray @ Eviolite
Impish Nature
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Rest

252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 83-99 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 56-66 (16.2 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 43-51 (12.5 - 14.8%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 34-40 (9.8 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 166-196 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 110-131 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 83-99 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 66-79 (19.1 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
4 Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 168-200 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO


:stonjourner: Checks :stonjourner:
User​
Pokemon​
Submission​
:ss/raichu:
:sm/dedenne:
:ss/greedent:
:ss/hakamo-o:

:stonjourner: Counters :stonjourner:

Vote for one check and one counter

My vote:
Hippo and Dedenne

Voting ends Monday, September 21


u forgot to add mudbray XD
 
View attachment 274168
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

Not only does heavy slam into self destruct fail to kill but it also can't 3hko machoke no matter what it clicks which makes Machoke a hard counter.
2 heat crashes (or heavy slams) + selfdestruct actually are a guaranteed 3HKO for the calcs you showed, so stonjourner can trade on the switchin. Still it counters every not selfdestruct set
 

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