Project Victim of the Week: ZU Edition

Should I ban Shedninja to the blacklist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 71.4%
  • No

    Votes: 4 28.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
Approved by 5gen
OP shamelessly stolen from the PU VOTW

Victim of the Week: ZU Edition​


Metagames are dynamic, ever-changing, and constantly subject to change. However, there are always key Pokemon which must be prepared for and acknowledged during teambuilding. This project is a great way for the community to come together and find ways to tackle these threats and develop a greater understanding of the tier as a whole, and also serves as a resource for newer and experimented players alike.

  • Every round, I'll pick one Pokemon from the "SS ZU Viability Rankings" to be discussed. The submission stage will last from Monday to Thursday.
  • During the round, post a Pokemon of your choosing from the Viability Rankings which is able to check / counter the current threat, with a Set, Description, and Calculations if necessary. (Note that they MUST be viable, no gimmicks like Scarf Vulpix.)
  • From Friday to Sunday, you'll vote for one or two checks and counters, and, at the end of the round, results will be archived with a link to the posts so that eventually we'll have a bank of checks and counters for each viable threat in the tier with descriptions and sets to match.
  • The same Pokemon may be picked, but they have to have a different set. For example, two people cannot both pick offensive Beheeyem, but having one person pick defensive Beheeyem and the other pick offensive is okay.

Rules:
  • When nominating your check or counter, please take into consideration this definition from The Smog:
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

There are some parts of those definitions that may be confusing to the unfamiliar, so now I'm going to make sure we're all on the same page. "Hax" does not mean cheats or codes used to win. "Hax" means, loosely, things that have a chance of happening but usually don't, for example, critical hits (under most circumstances), Ice Beam freezing, and Fire Blast missing. This means that we don't take into account these types of things when we analyze if one Pokémon checks or counters another. Despite this, it's unwise to declare that one Pokémon checks another when the victorious Pokémon relies on hitting Focus Blast three times in a row, or something like that. Basically, you're often okay ignoring hax unless something that doesn't have a high chance of happening must happen in order for a Pokémon to check or counter another.

There are some things, like flinching, which you would normally consider to be hax but aren't always so. For example, Jirachi has a 60% chance to flinch a slower opponent with Iron Head, so in this case, flinching is not hax because it happens over half the time. For things such as missing or secondary effects, such as a Scald burn or Special Defense drop from Seed Flare, that have a decently high chance of happening, you need to think about them when you analyze checks or counters. Even though they might fit the standard definition of hax, they happen often enough for you to expect to see them in real situations somewhat commonly. There's no official or best guideline, but in my opinion, if some form of "hax" has a 30% chance or higher of happening, you should keep it in the back of your mind because it's not a negligible occurrence.

  • Only post viable sets, or I will reject your submission. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to let me know on here, Pokémon Showdown!, or Discord.
  • Reservations are allowed, but if you do not edit your post in the 24 hours following your post, anyone is allowed to take your submission.
  • If you think someone else's submission is unviable, please let me know with a reasoning of why.
  • If your submission isn't clear enough, back it up with some calcs (you can use this website to calc.)
  • Please do not submit any Pokémon or items from the blacklist, I will reject your submission and most likely ask you to delete your post.

Blacklist:
  • :focus sash:
  • :Shedinja:
  • :Pyukumuku:

Current Victim

Grapploct

:ss/grapploct:

Grapploct @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch / Brutal Swing
- Ice Punch

 
Last edited:

Attachments

Last edited by a moderator:

JonAmon 25

Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
is a Pre-Contributor

Gourgeist-Large
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Shadow Sneak
- Synthesis
- Will-O-Wisp

Counter. Itemless Gourgeist-L is able to switch in on almost all of Banded Gourgeist’s moves. It is Immune to Poltergeist and Explosion and shrugs off Power Whip and Rock Slide damage with Synthesis. Without Trick, Band Gour is forced to commit to Shadow Sneak, which after rocks is a 3HKO, allowing Defensive Gour to heal the off the damage and burn it. If Tricked into Band, the opposing Gourgeist cannot OHKO with Poltergeist, allowing Defensive Gour to fire off a Choice Band Foul Play that has a chance to OHKO after rocks.

Band Gourgeist Damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 81-96 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 54.4% chance to 4HKO

(No Rocks) 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 110-132 (31 - 37.2%) -- 74.1% chance to 3HKO

(With Rocks) 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 110-132 (31 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 68-81 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO

(If Tricked) 252+ Atk Gourgeist-Large Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 200-236 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Gourgeist Damage
252+ Atk Gourgeist-Large Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Large: 156-184 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Gourgeist-Large Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Large: 72-86 (24.7 - 29.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO

(If Tricked)(No Rocks) 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Large: 232-274 (79.7 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(With Rocks) 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Large: 232-274 (79.7 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Last edited:

Oathkeeper

"Wait!" he says, do I look like a waiter?
is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus

Silvally-Ice @ Ice Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Parting Shot
- Defog

Check. Funny enough, Icevally can come in on any 1 move from Banded Geist-L (besides Explosion) and eat it up but only once (again, besides Explosion). After eating up said hit, it outspeeds Geist-L and OHKOs right back with STAB Ice Beam and kills the plant with freezing cold, done.

Gourgeist-L attacking
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ice: 249-294 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ice: 271-319 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ice: 91-108 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ice: 376-443 (113.5 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (OUCH)
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ice: 226-268 (68.2 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Silvally-Ice attacking
252 SpA Silvally-Ice Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Large: 300-354 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ez)

 
Last edited:

OranBerryBlissey10

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
Reserving Tranquill

Sorry, OranBerryBlissey10, but Tranquill is not ranked on the VR. A good substitute for it could be Farfetch'd or Rufflet.
My day is ruined and my disappointment is immesureable.

Kinda wanna do Zweilous but I'll stay on topic and do another bird.

:ss/Rufflet:
Rufflet (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
- Roost
- Aerial Ace

This spread allows you to outroost Gourgeist's stabs and barely live Explosion, while Rock Slide is a 50-50 roll to 2hko. Being Tricked a Choice Band isn't even that detrimental, since you have a spammable move as well as Gourgeist weakening itself. It should be noted though, that Trick into Rock Slide will lose you the mu, as banded Aerial Ace doesn't ohko, but most Gour sets carry one or the other. The idea is to set up with Bulk Up and Substitute to either sweep or hit the switchin with a boosted Hustle Aerial Ace before the substitute breaks. The ideal scenario is Gourgeist staying in, as you can safely Roost off any stab move. Rufflet is a check, as it consistently switches in to Power Whip and obviously Poltergeist/Shadow Sneak as well, but loses to Rock Slide and Explosion if rocks are up. Alternatively, if you manage to Bulk Up before Gour comes in, you win against every variant except in the case of a Rock Slide flinch.

252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rufflet: 93-111 (27.1 - 32.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rufflet: 260-307 (75.8 - 89.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rufflet: 158-186 (46 - 54.2%)

0 Atk Hustle Rufflet Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Large: 140-168 (48.1 - 57.7%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Hustle Rufflet Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Large: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Also the Torracat paste has Blaze over Intimidate fsr. Is this a typo or are the calcs better than the ones shown?

Here's a little bonus. I'm stubborn, what can I say :)
:ss/Tranquill:
Tranquill @ Eviolite
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- U-turn
- Dual Wingbeat

252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tranquill: 84-99 (25.6 - 30.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tranquill: 140-166 (42.8 - 50.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tranquill: 232-273 (70.9 - 83.4%)

0 Atk Tranquill Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Large: 120-144 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- approx. 3HKO
 
Last edited:
:ss/torracat:

Torracat @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 168 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Lax Nature
- Flamethrower
- Fake Out
- Will-O-Wisp
- Parting Shot

Torracat is EV'd to outspeed Gourgeist upon entry (238 over 237). From there it's pretty straightforward, as Flamethrower will always OHKO. Torracat is able to survive every attack barring Explosion, as it can take one Poltergeist and one Rockslide, and is able to take multiple Shadows Sneaks and Grass Knots (although two Grass Knots will likely leave it in single digits). I considered adding Protect for a potential Explosion hard read, and going no item so Poltergeist would do less, but that isn't realistically viable, so I gave it Evolite for defensive purposes, and added Parting Shot to be faithful to Torracat's usual role as a pivot.

252+ SpA Torracat Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Large: 294-348 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Eviolite Torracat: 211-249 (77.8 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Eviolite Torracat: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Eviolite Torracat: 76-91 (28 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Eviolite Torracat: 192-228 (70.8 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Explosion vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Eviolite Torracat: 318-375 (117.3 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Last edited:

Cheezy

ripples on a blank shore
is a Top Tiering Contributor

:ss/stonjourner:
Stonjourner @ Choice Band
Ability: Power Spot
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Heat Crash
- Self-Destruct​

Ston checks Gourgeist very well due to outspeeding and OHKOing with Heat Crash. It can also switch into any attack besides Power Whip.

252 Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Large: 322-380 (110.6 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 184-217 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 138-163 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 84-99 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

:gourgeist: Checks :gourgeist:

:gourgeist: Counters :gourgeist:
UserPokemonSubmission
JonAmon 25:ss/gourgeist:Defensive Gourgeist

Because the only counter submitted was Gourgeist, JonAmon 25 automatically wins one point. Vote for one check. Also the Torracat calcs above do not have Intimidate factored in, so the calcs should look like this instead.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 168+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 70-83 (25.8 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 168+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 127-151 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 168+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 118-140 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Explosion vs. 0 HP / 168+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 194-229 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

My vote:
Silvally-Ice
 

Cheezy

ripples on a blank shore
is a Top Tiering Contributor
Winners

:gourgeist: Checks :gourgeist:
UserPokemonSubmission
Oathkeepre:ss/silvally:Defog Silvally-Ice

:gourgeist: Counters :gourgeist:
UserPokemonSubmission
JonAmon 25:ss/gourgeist:Defensive Gourgeist

Checks
Silvally-Ice - 3
Stonjourner - 2
Torracat - 1
Rufflet - 0


Week 2

Swoobat
:bw/swoobat:

Swoobat @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Simple
EVs: 168 HP / 44 Def / 44 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Roost
- Heat Wave / Air Slash / Taunt

Voting starts Thursday, August 27​
 
Last edited:

OranBerryBlissey10

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
:ss/Zweilous:
Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Roar/Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This Zweilous set can tank anything Swoobat can throw at it and only loses in the case of multiple Air Slash flinches. Crunch is Zweilous' main way of doing damage and is a 2hko against Swoobat (if it hits lol). Swoobat also can't permanently outroost these due to the double defense drops. A phazing move is a requirement to stop setup shenanigans, Roar has 100% accuracy but Dragon Tail does chip while phazing at the cost of only 72% accuracy. The combination of possible chip, potential hazards, but most importantly, the loss of Swoobat's grassy seed makes it significantly easier to take down by scarfers and priority. Resttalk is for longevity as phazing out Swoobat is a temporary solution, and if it ever does get to set up, being able to take boosted hits repeatedly is valuable. What's also a possibilty is investing in defense ev's so that it can serve as a Gourgeist/Trevenant check at the cost of a slightly weaker Swoobat matchup. If it wasn't clear already, Zweilous is a Counter (and the only defensive one afaik).

0 Atk Hustle Zweilous Crunch vs. +2 168 HP / 44 Def Swoobat: 170-204 (53.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 0 SpA Swoobat Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 33-39 (9.4 - 11.2%) -- possible 9HKO
+2 0 SpA Swoobat Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 78-93 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- 21.3% chance to 4HKO
+6 0 SpA Swoobat Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 66-78 (18.9 - 22.4%) -- possible 5HKO
+6 0 SpA Swoobat Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 156-184 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

also sorry to have to do this again lol, but the calc in the Raichu set has 60 bp Stored Power instead of 140 bp
 
Last edited:
Reserving scarf glalie lol

:bw/glalie:
Glalie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Frost Breath
- Freeze Dry
- Water Pulse
- Switcheroo

Basically you outspeed it and cleanly OHKO it with frostbreath bypassing the grassy seed defense boost. Obviously you're not switching in but it's the best check ZU has, which really shows how broken the bat has. Rest of the moves are standard, freezw dry nails water types, switcheroo to cripple eviolite walls and water pulse is a neat tech for Carkoal I guess.

252 SpA Glalie Frost Breath vs. 168 HP / 44 SpD Swoobat on a critical hit: 320-380 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Last edited:
Someone took Scarf Glalie from me so I was going to go with my back up of Cottonee but then I realized it's not on the VR. So back up of a back up.

Swoobat (Not on the VR but let's face it, it will be)
:bw/swoobat:

Swoobat @ leftovers/Heavy-Duty Boots/Mental Herb
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 168 HP / 44 Def / 44 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psych up
- Stored Power
- Roost
- U-turn / Defog

Beats out set up swoobats. If not running mental herb it can get outsped with taunt but if can go first or if they are not running taunt then this swoobat will take out setup swoobats. The last move can used for a fast pivot or hazard removal.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top