https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/formats/uubl/
- Drought / Drizzle
- Mewnium Z / Kommonium Z
- Baton Pass
- Drought / Drizzle
- Mewnium Z / Kommonium Z
- Baton Pass
Honestly, I always wondered why a-ninetails & not aurora veil. (I was not here during the ban.) I see these arguments and think, "that's not a good argument at all."Why would we ban aurora veil just to make ninetales usable? While they can definitely be annoying from a matchup perspective, Aurorus+Sandslash teams are clearly not broken or too powerful in the tier but Ninetales veil was, which just goes to show that the broken element was the pokemon not the move.
I agree with you as far as ninetails itself not being broken, but veil being. However thats where I draw the line. First off, unbanning tails and banning veil would never happen thanks to smogon's absolute hatred of complex bans. See, the thing is, Ninetails is banned because it's just too good of a setter. It's speed lets it get veil up vs pretty much anything that doesn't outspeed it and kill it or something that has super effective priority (aka Scizor). It also has tools like Encore to lock something into a settup move and get up Veil. Overall, as much as I dislike Atails only being UUBL for veil, its most likely not coming down at all, unless by some miracle UU decides to ban Veil alone and retest Alolatails.Honestly, I always wondered why a-ninetails & not aurora veil. (I was not here during the ban.) I see these arguments and think, "that's not a good argument at all."
Aurorus does not have snow warning AND aurora veil. Neither does A-Sandslash. Not a good example. Of course aurora veil won't look broken if it takes 2 mons to pull this off (both of which are not good).
If you are seriously going to tell me that A-Ninetales is broken and not aurora veil, then please show me a replay of A-Ninetales sweeping the meta or of A-Ninetales easily pressuring teams. A-Ninetales sets up the move and made sure other mons could not set up alongside by using encore. That was it.
A better example is if we had another mon with aurora veil + snow warning. Not one that is inherently bad either. One that is either fast or has similar stats/movepool/typing as other mons in the current metagame. Since we don't have one, we can't really make a good comparison. But, would if I to then say that Zeroara, Mesperit, and other fasts mons had snow warning + aurora veil. Would aurora veil be broken or the mons?
Obviously it's the move and not the pokemon. Other pokemon abused the move for crying out loud. It was thanks to the move that other mons were able to sweep so easily in the first place. People ran defoggers more often than not for the move, not for A-Ninetales.
I honestly agree that Alolan Ninetales should be unbanned, and the move aurora veil should be banned.
A lot of the facts you pointed out is what I already pointed out in my initial post and I put down all the points. And complex bans have been made: Drought, Drizzle, and following OU complex bans (like baton pass). Just as Mega Houndoom wasn't inherently broken without sun, same goes for Alolan Ninetales. And Mega Houndoom is bulkier, stronger, faster, and arguably has a better movepool. Same goes for Dugtrio, Gothitelle, Ninetales, Politoed, all swift swimmers / chlorophyll-ers, and baton pass users.I agree with you as far as ninetails itself not being broken, but veil being. However thats where I draw the line. First off, unbanning tails and banning veil would never happen thanks to smogon's absolute hatred of complex bans. See, the thing is, Ninetails is banned because it's just too good of a setter. It's speed lets it get veil up vs pretty much anything that doesn't outspeed it and kill it or something that has super effective priority (aka Scizor). It also has tools like Encore to lock something into a settup move and get up Veil. Overall, as much as I dislike Atails only being UUBL for veil, its most likely not coming down at all, unless by some miracle UU decides to ban Veil alone and retest Alolatails.
Look where Mega Houndoom is: RU BL. Look where a lot of mons are that relied heavily on a broken ability/move that created archetypes.Alolan ninetails however, likely wouldn't bring enough to the table by itself to justify usage in the UU metagame.
Why ban a viable archetype just to unban a mon we'd probably give to RU in a month anyways? It makes no sense.
I don’t see how it’s not a good example? It’s the only tier relevant example, and despite needing two pokemon to pull off the move the strategy is usable albeit niche within the tier, while Ninetales teams were considered too much for the tier. Surely this shows that Aurora Veil can exist within UU so why would it be banned? Why would we ban an archetype that brings diversity to the tier for the sake of a pokemon that would be pretty useless in this tier? We make tiering decisions with the intent of removing the minimum amount from the tier while rectifying the issue and I think this is exactly what the Ninetales ban did. Banning veil instead would make Aurorus and Sandslash unviable in the tier, has a significant impact on Ninetales’ own viability to the point where it’d probably be unviable itself so where is the benefit for the tier in taking this decision? You’re correct, Ninetales has probably never swept a competent team or wallbroke to the point where it looked a broken threat based on that alone, but that’s not why the suspect was required, so I’m not sure why you’re attempting to use it as a reason to justify changing a decision that was made way back and really has no reason to be changed.Honestly, I always wondered why a-ninetails & not aurora veil. (I was not here during the ban.) I see these arguments and think, "that's not a good argument at all."
Aurorus does not have snow warning AND aurora veil. Neither does A-Sandslash. Not a good example. Of course aurora veil won't look broken if it takes 2 mons to pull this off (both of which are not good).
If you are seriously going to tell me that A-Ninetales is broken and not aurora veil, then please show me a replay of A-Ninetales sweeping the meta or of A-Ninetales easily pressuring teams. A-Ninetales sets up the move and made sure other mons could not set up alongside by using encore. That was it.
A better example is if we had another mon with aurora veil + snow warning. Not one that is inherently bad either. One that is either fast or has similar stats/movepool/typing as other mons in the current metagame. Since we don't have one, we can't really make a good comparison. But, would if I to then say that Zeroara, Mesperit, and other fasts mons had snow warning + aurora veil. Would aurora veil be broken or the mons?
Obviously it's the move and not the pokemon. Other pokemon abused the move for crying out loud. It was thanks to the move that other mons were able to sweep so easily in the first place. People ran defoggers more often than not for the move, not for A-Ninetales.
I honestly agree that Alolan Ninetales should be unbanned, and the move aurora veil should be banned.
Why not ban politoed and not drizzle? Why not ban mega houndoom and not drought? Why would OU not ban Dugtrio seeing as trapinch with arena trap isn't broken at all in the slightest. Look at RU, they didn't ban drought, they banned mega houndoom. And Drought was still a viable playstyle here too. I remember PIF talking about how it did well against stall and a few others stating it did well against a few HO & balance teams at the time. Venusaur was C+ rank and Ninetales was like B- rank or something before mega houndoom dropped.I don’t see how it’s not a good example?
So why ban the pokemon if it didn't accomplish any of this? Mega Houndoom was banned and it at least accomplished all of these tasks.You’re correct, Ninetales has probably never swept a competent team or wallbroke to the point where it looked a broken threat based on that alone, but that’s not why the suspect was required
Because, would if in gen 8 we get more mons that have both aurora veil and snow warning? Both fast and bulky. Should we ban them all? Or just the move. Plus, what about other tiers? Alolan Ninetales might add something to other tiers too. It'd be selfish to think only of UU since the ban affects other tiers.I just don’t understand what is driving this sudden desire to see Ninetales go back to RU or wherever it would end up at th expense of removing some diversity from our tier. My view has been that our tiering should always be done to improve the tier as a whole, and I think changing this decision would contradict that completely.
Many agree that this is currently the best iteration of UU
Could be that they just need more examples of teams in the current meta maybe? Not everyone is a good team builder. I know I make a good one every now and then but I usually just work off what others have made.Ah yes, stability confused for staleness, my favorite flavor of metagame
There's so much stuff viable right now, possibly more than ever in S/M and people think unbanning mons is the only way to shake up the meta
There's a lot to build with right now, a lot of unexplored mons and archetypes!
There is already a thread.. it's the UU Teambuilding Labmaybe get UU team workshop to play more a part in the forum.
To add on, there’s also a sample teams thread, but maybe it’s just not visible enough for some people- I know that they aren’t as active as this thread is, for example.There is already a thread.. it's the UU Teambuilding Lab
There is already a thread.. it's the UU Teambuilding Lab
Once again, my wording sucks. What I ACTUALLY meant to say was that these things should be more exposed to people. Sorry for the sucky wording...To add on, there’s also a sample teams thread, but maybe it’s just not visible enough for some people- I know that they aren’t as active as this thread is, for example.
My favourite was how Sylveon wasn’t a check because it could CM, eat the hit, and proceed to boost up vs it. I don’t see how much has changed.No. Just... no. I don't want to play a game of 'am I lucky enough for it to not have the right coverage'. I don't want to play a game of 'does it have refresh or can i toxic it', I don't want to play a game where scouting one wrong turn is the end of the line.
We had Weavile around last meta, we still have Krook, had other strong dragons, Altaria, etc. It was still broken as hell. Keep that thing out of the tier.