Metagame USUM UU - General Discussion & Trends Thread!

I was thinking about using a support Malt set with some SpD investment instead of just max defense in order to better check NP Ape, Chandelure, and other special attackers. Then I realized that max defense almost always avoids the 2HKO from heracross' facade; should I use max defense for this reason? Being RUBL, I don't expect to see it much, but my team otherwise doesn't have anything more than a soft check.

The spread I had in mind was 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD with an Impish nature, which allows Malt to avoid the 2HKO from Mega Aerodactyl's ice fang. Are there other benchmarks that max defense hits, that this spread doesn't?
 

Estarossa

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I was thinking about using a support Malt set with some SpD investment instead of just max defense in order to better check NP Ape, Chandelure, and other special attackers. Then I realized that max defense almost always avoids the 2HKO from heracross' facade; should I use max defense for this reason? Being RUBL, I don't expect to see it much, but my team otherwise doesn't have anything more than a soft check.

The spread I had in mind was 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD with an Impish nature, which allows Malt to avoid the 2HKO from Mega Aerodactyl's ice fang. Are there other benchmarks that max defense hits, that this spread doesn't?
From your posts in other subforums, I'm guessing you want to use this on stall?

Malt basically needs to be max defence to survive +2 pjab from SD haxorus unless you run something else that deals with it.

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 258-304 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your spread will also struggle vs banded crawdaunt, another powerful stallbreaker, as it both underspeeds it due to no 56 speed EVs, and takes a lot more damage due to the lack of defence.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 68+ Def Altaria-Mega: 134-158 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 114-135 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You may get away with this lack of defence vs crawdaunt if you are still running 56 speed to hit the benchmark to go first, but if you aren't it can be inflicting upwards of 80% damage against you before you can attack it as you swap in (not including hazards), and you won't be able to deal with SD haxorus without the defence.

Spdef pyukumukku serves as a good answer to the special attackers you mentioned, and other threatening special stallbreakers, see pifs post on it in the VR for more information about what it can really do tbh. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-uu-viability-ranking-thread-v3.3641346/page-14
 
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Hey here's a common example of a Spikes Sharpedo team. (Was searching for some on other threads, credits to Panther-T)

The idea of these teams are pretty straightforward. You have a Spiker and a Stealth Rocker and then a bunch of sweepers. The spiker, which usually is a froslass (Klefki, Chesnaught, Roserade, and Cloyster are other options) as it's a good suicide lead. It's access to taunt prevents opposing pokemon from setting up early. It's speed is very high, only being outmatched by 8 pokemon in uu: Aerodactyl-mega, Crobat, Manectric-mega, Zeraora, Pidgeot-Mega, Azelf, Beedrill-Mega, and Starmie. Along with taunt is icy wind and destiny bond. Icy wind lowers your opponents speed, allowing you to destiny bond almost always before your opponent kills you, unless they're running some wack shit like scarf Starmie. It's important to predict certain hazard removing moves your opponent could use like Defog (which can be prevented by taunt) or Rapid Spin (Which could be prevented by switching in a ghost type pokemon)

One thing you shouldn't let happen when Froslass is on the field is let your opponent set up! Icy Wind is commonly the only attacking move used on froslass, and if your opponent leads with a pokemon like Swords Dance/Nasty Plot Scizor, Doublade, Infernape, Bisharp, Lucario, Feraligatr, or Mimikyu your team is looking for trouble as they all have priority and can be able to predict your Destiny Bonds. I would recommend immediately switching out if one of those are your opponent's leads.

Now for your Stealth Rocker, I would definitely recommend something bulky. Some examples include Aggron-Mega, Gligar, Hippowdon, Swampert, Cobalion, and Krookodile. These can switch into a lot of pokemon and be able to set up rocks before dying.

And then a bunch of sweepers, set up pokemon for you to go ham on your opponent. In this case, these pokemon are Bisharp, Gengar, Hydreigon, and Mega Sharpedo. These have an easier time sweeping with those Spikes and Rocks on your opponents side.

Here's another version of a Sharpedo Spike Stack team. (Creds to RandomKrud)

Pretty much a spiker (except a bulkier one in chesnaught), a rocker, and a bunch of sweepers. You get the gist.
Hello.

Thank you for giving me credits. I just want to say that this team is very old and probably needs to be updated. The core idea is still relevant, though.
 
i need help, what is the best possible team to counter the super annoying team of blissey, alomomola, quagsire, mega aggron and tentacruel ? i have the luck to meet this kind of team very frequently and my team is always totally walled. My team is this https://pokepast.es/44bee513d1b9ab2c.
i dont mind to change completely my team or sets, i want to be able to overpower this defensive style, thanks
 

Stoward

Ah, you're finally awake
Easiest way to improve your stall matchup without making any major changes is by changing Mega Altaria's set, as it has a very solid matchup against Stall builds.

Facade > Return on Mega Altaria will help the stall matchup, it's just important that you can chip away at Mega Aggron before letting Altaria get burned.
Fire Blast > Earthquake is also good on that set as Earthquake does half damage if you're burned.
 
Any suggestions for how to deal with volt-turn cores featuring Mega Beedrill? My initial thought was to use a regen core with Alomomola, as Alomomola takes less than 1/3 of its HP from u-turn. However, poison jab has a nasty poison rate, which can cripple Alomomola to the point that it takes more damage from u-turn + poison than it heals with leftovers and regenerator.

Is there a better regenerator Pokemon for this job? Is there a better approach to volt-turn than a regen core? Or maybe Alomomola is sufficient, and I'm just missing something?
 
Any suggestions for how to deal with volt-turn cores featuring Mega Beedrill? My initial thought was to use a regen core with Alomomola, as Alomomola takes less than 1/3 of its HP from u-turn. However, poison jab has a nasty poison rate, which can cripple Alomomola to the point that it takes more damage from u-turn + poison than it heals with leftovers and regenerator.

Is there a better regenerator Pokemon for this job? Is there a better approach to volt-turn than a regen core? Or maybe Alomomola is sufficient, and I'm just missing something?
Rocky helmet users (Amoonguss is the best since it can't get poisoned, as mentioned above. Cobalion and Alomomola are fine as well, however.) Do well against Mega Bee voltturn. Hippowdon also does well against these teams since it resists most electrics and blocks volt switches, resists Mega Bee itself really well and can set rocks to chip Bee over time. Aerodactyl Mega gets honorable mention as well as it can resist Mega Bee, pursuit trap it if it gets in on Bee successfully, and can even harass various electrics in these voltturn cores. Hazard play as mentioned before is also really important against these teams, as stealth rocks and spikes will wear down Bee incredibly fast. Swampert and Seismitoad are good rocker options here since common defoggers on voltturn heavy teams are usually Gligar or Rotom-H, the aforementioned Swampert and Seismitoad can also do well at harassing Bee itself since Bee struggles with bulky grounds. Speaking of bulky grounds, Gligar hard stops Bee, walling it's entire movepool and can resist some of it's volt switch partners, it can also trade U-turns with Bee, which will usually put you out on top since Gligar has a slower U-Turn than Megabee.
 
I know it isn't on the VR, which means it shouldn't be used, but I've been using Audino to compress the role of cleric and volt switch check. The main appeal of Audino over Blissey is regenerator, but I've been switching between the two, unable to decide.

There are two things I dislike about using Blissey over Audino. Firstly, even with leftovers, it can be worn down by stronger volt switch users like Mega Manectric. Second of all, Blissey is reliant on leftovers to not be chipped down by volt switch from even weaker 'mons, like Rotom. This makes it susceptible to trick from Rotom itself, whereas Audino can afford to use a z crystal because of regenerator.

Can I get a second opinion on this? Can Blissey use a z crystal without being worn down too much?
 

esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
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leftovers are hard to pass up on on blissey bc as you said it gets worn down very easily (particularly by hazards and other small chip) and thus increases the need for using a healing move where it would be beneficial for you to get some initiative instead. i cant speak for z blissey but i know some ppl have run z fireblast as a lure for sciz. overall you will definitely get more out of blissey than audino in uu bc the former has access to soft-boiled whereas the latter needs wishtect which - if you want it to have cleric options - leaves you with one fewer moveslot. blissey makes great use of toxic or stealth rock in that "free" slot alongside stoss while audino is forced in the awkward position of deciding between dazzling gleam and knock off - unless you want it to be complete taunt fodder. while trick rotom-h can neutralise blissey it isnt all that common a moveslot choice rn considering almost all of them are the fast bulky defog set to better deal w/ sciz. regenerator is great and all but dont forget blissey has the added benefit of natural cure which allows you to conserve heal bell pp.

anyway since you voiced your concern about trick rotom-h I recommend you pick blissey nonetheless and add a team member that allows you to scout the rotom-h set - altaria-m comes to mind bc it blocks trick, easily sponges knock off and appreciates cleric support from blissey since nat cure will be lost upon mega evolving.
 

prikshit

Banned deucer.
Any suggestions for how to deal with volt-turn cores featuring Mega Beedrill? My initial thought was to use a regen core with Alomomola, as Alomomola takes less than 1/3 of its HP from u-turn. However, poison jab has a nasty poison rate, which can cripple Alomomola to the point that it takes more damage from u-turn + poison than it heals with leftovers and regenerator.

Is there a better regenerator Pokemon for this job? Is there a better approach to volt-turn than a regen core? Or maybe Alomomola is sufficient, and I'm just missing something?

One Of My Favourite Ways To Deal With The Mega-Beedrill Spamming Broken U Turn And Other Volt Switchers Is To Use Rocky Helmet Hippowdon. I Note Some People Prefer Other Ground Types Such As Gligar But That Trash Is Useless And Big Hippo Also Has Benefit Of Dealing With Mega Manectric (Which Is Another Broken Mon) If You Choose To Run A Specially Defensive Set. Rocky Helmet Amoongus Also Can Punish Spamming Of These Moves. Mega-Steelix Is Also Another Good Mon That I Believe Does Not Get Explored Enough In The UnderUsed Due To Too Much Focus On Gutter Filth Like Cobalion. :fukyu:
 
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One Of My Favourite Ways To Deal With The Mega-Beedrill Spamming Broken U Turn And Other Volt Switchers Is To Use Rocky Helmet Hippowdon. I Note Some People Prefer Other Ground Types Such As Gligar But That Trash Is Useless And Big Hippo Also Has Benefit Of Dealing With Mega Manectric (Which Is Another Broken Mon) If You Choose To Run A Specially Defensive Set. Rocky Helmet Amoongus Also Can Punish Spamming Of These Moves. Mega-Steelix Is Also Another Good Mon That I Believe Does Not Get Explored Enough In The UnderUsed Due To Too Much Focus On Noob Traps Like Cobalion. :fukyu:
I know it isn't on the VR, which means it shouldn't be used, but I've been using Audino to compress the role of cleric and volt switch check. The main appeal of Audino over Blissey is regenerator, but I've been switching between the two, unable to decide.

There are two things I dislike about using Blissey over Audino. Firstly, even with leftovers, it can be worn down by stronger volt switch users like Mega Manectric. Second of all, Blissey is reliant on leftovers to not be chipped down by volt switch from even weaker 'mons, like Rotom. This makes it susceptible to trick from Rotom itself, whereas Audino can afford to use a z crystal because of regenerator.

Can I get a second opinion on this? Can Blissey use a z crystal without being worn down too much?
Like was said, Rocky Helmet users such as Alomomola, Cobalion, and Amoonguss are good ways to punish physical attackers, as well as pokemon that utilize U-turn in general, such as Hydreigon. However, if you are attempting to deal with Volt Switch users, you need to go about it differently, especially when using Stall archetypes. I'm not that great at building stall, but I'll try and show a few pointers and let more experienced players build on those points.

  • Starting off, not only on stall, but on the majority of teams, you need a Ground type. This is essential to any team's offense matchup that utilizes VoltTurn, as a Ground Type or other ways of preventing Electric-type moves prevent Volt Switch users, such as Rotom-Heat or Mega Manectric, from mindlessly clicking Volt Switch and pivoting around for free. Good examples of these are Hippowdon, Nidoqueen, or Krookidile.
  • However, on Stall, you are kinda limited to what Ground types you can use, due to a good portion of the tier's Ground types being more offensively based. From looking at common Stall teams, some good examples would be Quagsire or Gligar, who not only function as just a Ground type, but preform other roles.
  • For example, Quagsire is a Ground type obviously, but it's main function on stall is being an Unaware user to counteract your stall team being completely ran over by common set-up sweepers. Gligar, as mentioned, is also a Ground type, but it focuses more on being a check to the likes of Terrakion, Cobalion, as well as mainly being part of the Stall team's Defog core.
  • As far as the Audino v Blissey question, I think that esche covers the point pretty well. Blissey just simply outclasses Audino, even if Audino has Regenerator.
If you have anymore questions, feel free to reach out here and ask away! There are plenty of people willing to help! Hope this answers your questions, and I hope you have a good day!

Edit: Just noticed Smallsmallrose said the same thing, lol. Srry, friend :I
 
Like was said, Rocky Helmet users such as Alomomola, Cobalion, and Amoonguss are good ways to punish physical attackers, as well as pokemon that utilize U-turn in general, such as Hydreigon. However, if you are attempting to deal with Volt Switch users, you need to go about it differently, especially when using Stall archetypes. I'm not that great at building stall, but I'll try and show a few pointers and let more experienced players build on those points.

  • Starting off, not only on stall, but on the majority of teams, you need a Ground type. This is essential to any team's offense matchup that utilizes VoltTurn, as a Ground Type or other ways of preventing Electric-type moves prevent Volt Switch users, such as Rotom-Heat or Mega Manectric, from mindlessly clicking Volt Switch and pivoting around for free. Good examples of these are Hippowdon, Nidoqueen, or Krookidile.
  • However, on Stall, you are kinda limited to what Ground types you can use, due to a good portion of the tier's Ground types being more offensively based. From looking at common Stall teams, some good examples would be Quagsire or Gligar, who not only function as just a Ground type, but preform other roles.
  • For example, Quagsire is a Ground type obviously, but it's main function on stall is being an Unaware user to counteract your stall team being completely ran over by common set-up sweepers. Gligar, as mentioned, is also a Ground type, but it focuses more on being a check to the likes of Terrakion, Cobalion, as well as mainly being part of the Stall team's Defog core.
  • As far as the Audino v Blissey question, I think that esche covers the point pretty well. Blissey just simply outclasses Audino, even if Audino has Regenerator.
If you have anymore questions, feel free to reach out here and ask away! There are plenty of people willing to help! Hope this answers your questions, and I hope you have a good day!

Edit: Just noticed Smallsmallrose said the same thing, lol. Srry, friend :I
Thanks for the help, even if Smallsmallrose beat you to it. I'm pretty happy with my team at this point, and I don't think it'll see many, if any changes any time soon. I'll do some more testing tomorrow, and hopefully share it afterwards.
 

Gray

stop ballcapping
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
I know it isn't on the VR, which means it shouldn't be used, but I've been using Audino to compress the role of cleric and volt switch check. The main appeal of Audino over Blissey is regenerator, but I've been switching between the two, unable to decide.

There are two things I dislike about using Blissey over Audino. Firstly, even with leftovers, it can be worn down by stronger volt switch users like Mega Manectric. Second of all, Blissey is reliant on leftovers to not be chipped down by volt switch from even weaker 'mons, like Rotom. This makes it susceptible to trick from Rotom itself, whereas Audino can afford to use a z crystal because of regenerator.

Can I get a second opinion on this? Can Blissey use a z crystal without being worn down too much?
Yo I would definitely not recommend using audino with a z crystal. I would say that using it just for trick is very situational and a better way to deal with it is by switching in a mega. An example includes Mega Altaria, which is the best Mega check for Rotom Heat.

Another common trick pokemon includes Gengar, for which I would recommend Specially defensive Mega Aggron or Mega Steelix.
Calcs for Steelix:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 294-346 (83 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs for Aggron:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 244-288 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again, these are just counters for Trick, which I feel like isn't too much of a threat to worry about. I would recommend Blissey over Audino for sure, or at least not to use z Audino cuz its not an offensive pokemon at all and is a waste of a potential Z-move slot for another pokemon. If you're really worried about trick, I would just recommend having a mega in the back and predicting a switch in.
 
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I have a few questions (I mean, when don't I have questions?). First of all, why is this thread so dead? It seems like anything that would be considered metagame discussion just ends up in the np thread.

Additionally, how can one prevent taunt hazard setters from racking and keeping up hazards? I find that lately, there's been quite a surge in Pokemon using taunt + rocks/spikes, like Froslass (especially common and annoying because it spin blocks too), Azelf, Cobalion, Krookodile, and even lead infernape. I've thought about using a magic bouncer, but Espeon and Xatu seem too weak to pursuit (and some of the 'mons they would need to check), and Mega Absol has various flaws (mega slot, relies on wish without leftovers, piss-poor bulk).
 

Estarossa

moo?
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I have a few questions (I mean, when don't I have questions?). First of all, why is this thread so dead? It seems like anything that would be considered metagame discussion just ends up in the np thread.

Additionally, how can one prevent taunt hazard setters from racking and keeping up hazards? I find that lately, there's been quite a surge in Pokemon using taunt + rocks/spikes, like Froslass (especially common and annoying because it spin blocks too), Azelf, Cobalion, Krookodile, and even lead infernape. I've thought about using a magic bouncer, but Espeon and Xatu seem too weak to pursuit (and some of the 'mons they would need to check), and Mega Absol has various flaws (mega slot, relies on wish without leftovers, piss-poor bulk).
As far as Xatu is concerned, running protect as a 4th move can help you vs scarf krookodile as a pursuit trapper, but other pursuit trappers are still problematic, although a colbur berry can give you a one time protection from pursuit as well.

While not viable on stall for you, faster taunters are one of the more reliable ways of preventing this, such as Mega-Houndoom which outspeeds Froslass. Stuff like Doublade or Scizor can restrict Froslass to one layer of spikes by Iron Heading -> Shadow Sneaking or double Bullet Punching, which can help mitigate the damage done by the spikes.

These Taunt hazard setters are specifically designed to cause the problems you are finding however, but once they are dead it puts a lot of pressure on the offensive player to prevent you finding defog opportunities.
 

scorbunnys

Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Hello, I have possible proposals for mons who can have a ban in the UU or go down to the UU, without further delay let's start.
1573846236117.png
Drop to UU (A / A- rank)
Well, this mon the truth is that I would be outclassed sometimes by Altaria-Mega, who would have a more reliable recovery, the truth is that I don't think it's anything superior, since although Moxie + DD is excellent, it would still have lags, in OU is not the big deal and in the UU I don't think it's a threat that centralizes, I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be pathetic or decent, Moxie + DD would generate enormous pressure, but if it went down to the UU, it wouldn't be in a excellent position, it would be a good mon, but nothing from the other world, I would say that A- / A rank would be fine, since it would be an excellent offensive power and nothing would enter you safely
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 604-712 (182.4 - 215.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 408-482 (123.2 - 145.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 712-844 (215.1 - 254.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But...
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 351-414 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 404-476 (121.3 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
So in A rank or A-rank it's fine, lower it to UU in the future generation.

1573847220682.png
Banned in UU
Mew must have ban, his only "Counters" are Scizor and Bisharp, which are burned by WoW, the reason is because this mon has no counters and if he has, he covers them in some way or another, NP + Fire Blast it makes more offensive, defensive variants, some bulkys with CM, it is an excessively versatile mon, I take Scizor out of the best UU? Yes, Mew is the best UU and with great difference, as I said in the VR, it should be S + , is that if it is true, it has too many niches, do you want to count Aggron-Mega ?, has Fire Blast, has many options, so it must be banned.
Thanks
 

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