Metagame USUM UU - General Discussion & Trends Thread!

[Breadpool]

Dark Pulse, Hyper voice and surf isn't good?
I know that MMane and Zeraora are better options, but the Niche in hitting just about everything (yes fck soundproof kommo o) along with the fact that voice is STAB; it sure isn't as good, but it deserves something on the VR and some regonization.

I think it’s worth pointing out that just because Heliolisk can be good, and be used to success, doesn’t mean that something isn’t better in every way. And that’s what Zeraora is - it’s better in every way.

Zera hits all the same things with more flexibility to hit more things from both sides and with a higher speed to boot. The only thing Helio has is dry skin, but that’s not enough of a niche to justify a ranking.

 

[Sickist]

Alright, moving off the unviable gecko, I wanna discuss something a little more viable but not quite 100% viable: RUBLs.

The current RUBLs include:

Absol-Mega
Durant
Entei
Houndoom-Mega
Kyurem
Mienshao
Reuniclus
Sceptile-Mega
Sharpedo
Talonflame
Tornadus
Venomoth
Zoroark

I've noticed some upward trends on some of these and downward trends on some of these that I will discuss in this essay post. I will first discuss the mons that are RUBL and see close to no usage or some usage and haven't really moved on from there at the current point. I will then discuss RUBL mons that have seen usage recently. The names in bold are the names of mons that are seeing more usage recently.


Alright, first off is Mega Absol.

This mon was super hyped at the beginning of the generation and since has fell from glory. At first glance, The sky-high offensive stats looks pretty appeasing with Magic Bounce preventing most burn attempts as well as Swords Dance, Taunt, Willowisp, Wish, Knock Off, Suckerpunch, etc. However, on closer inspection, the defensive stats kill this thing, at least imo. Dying to Scizor's bullet punch, one of the most common attacks in the tier, is not something that is appreciated when you're trying to sweep. Along with an abysmal HP stat, Getting this thing in safely is a pain and overall not worth it.

Next, Durant.

Imagine Scizor, but with low battery. That's essentially what Durant is. It has a decent speed tier, but misses barely on catching Latias and Gengar. It has decent attack, but No priority and terrible Special Defense. Overall, this mon is completely unviable in my eyes, and frankly will never see the light of any usage bar some low ladder shenanigans.

Moving on, Entei is up next.

Big Boy Fire Dog dropped to RU and was banned. It's okay, but it suffers from a less-then-stellar movepool and not-so-great speed. It's not the worst thing that you could use, but there are always better options. Overall, it's kinda mediocre and kinda not worth using unless you really wanna use it.

Oh boy, this'll be a rollercoaster...

Houndoom-Mega was orignally deemed too much for UU due to it's sheer wallbreaking, rather everything breaking, power under Sun. UU then banned sun and retested Houndoom and unbanned it. It stayed UU a while and then dropped off. It's still a good wallbreaker, it's just not that great to use with Scarf Krook running around everywhere. Other than that, I frankly don't know why Houndoom dropped off, it kinda just did.

Speaking of rollercoasters in the tiering department, this next mon moves more then Edward Snowdin...

This mon has shifted between RU, RUBL, and UU quite alot. It started RU and then proceeded to be banned, Got UU usage and shot up, lost usage and dropped to RUBL, shot up again and went back to UU, and finally it currently rests in RUBL. It has some fun sets such as scarf, specs, sub roost, etc. However, this is a prime example of suffering from 4MSS (Four move slot syndrome, essentially where a pokemon has alot of moves to choose from that it'd love to run, but it can only run four), as the choice between Earthpower, Substitue, Roost, Hidden Power Fire, Draco Meteor, and Flash Cannon (Ice Beam is a must no matter what) can be very difficult depending on what your team is struggling to smack. Overall, it's a fun mon that keeps shifting around and it'll probably be back in UU before the generation ends.

Mega Sceptile is probably in the weirdest spot when it comes to why it's RUBL.

Mega Sceptile isn't bad...it's just not good. I'm not going to spend much time on this mon because I rarely use it and I never keep track of where it's at so...yea. It can run like 2 sets at most: SD physical and Special All Out Attacker. It can hit a wide varienty of things, it's just not worth using in the mega slot when things like Mega Sharpedo and Mega Aerodactyl exist that can do so much more. Overall, it's just not great in the meta atm.

Normal sharpedo is outclassed by Mega Sharpedo hands down. Speed boost is pretty nice pre-mega though. So yea, that's all I got on this thing.

Tornadus is kinda awkward in the metagame. It has a good movepool and all, it's just not great. It's typing isn't bad but it's not stellar due to all the threats to flying types in the tier. Having alot of electrics being spammed atm doesn't help it either. Overall, about a 5/10.

And now for the 2nd weirdest RUBL mon: Zoroark.

Where should I start?

This mon i'm pretty sure has been blacklisted on the VR thread is i remember correctly. It's a super controversial topic apparently, so I'll tread lightly here. It has potential to be decent, it just never gets usage but it's also terrible at the same time? I frankly don't talk about this mon at all, and I feel it'd be beneficial to discuss this mon further among the thread. Anyways, This mon started RU and was banned because Nasty Plot and good coverage is something RU doesn't like for obvious reasons. Since then, it has resinated in the depths of RUBL.



Moving on from those, lets move on the those RUBLs that appear to be getting more popular.

AV Mienshao checks Hydreigon, what? This thing has caught on recently with a new and improved AV set. It still spams HJK like in the olden days though. Fighting types in general have seen an increase in usage (except Heracross (;-;). Anyways, Mienshao is back somewhat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know it's not getting more usage in UU, but I will make brief mention of it's increased OU usage. It's pretty nice there so yea. That's that.

Moving on..

Talonflame has seen more usage on Hyper Offense teams due to it's ability, access to taunt, swords dance, and roost. Despite those attributes, it's still 4x weak to stealth rocks and kinda weak with that meager 81 attack stat. Priority Z Brave Bird hits pretty hard and is fun though, so that's cool.

And now for the one that surprised me the most...

Venomoth is everywhere I go these days. With access to Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, Roost, and the ability in Tinted Lens makes Venomoth seem scary on paper and scary to see in team preview. However, despite that, it's very predictable and not as fast as the majority of the scarfers in the tier, allowing for Venomoth to be revenge killed pretty easily if it is at +1. Overall, Venomoth is a very interesting mon in the UU tier that I feel deserves alot more exploring.

Anyways, thanks for everyone's time who read this gargantuan post. I wish a good day to you all :)

 

[justdrew]

Moving forward with UU, this will be the new main thread to discuss UU, UU changes and current UU trends. A catch all thread for UU players, newbies and veterans alike! Feel free to also ask questions about team help, the tier or anything else UU related.

This thread is meant for all players which means people who are completely new to this tier or even this game. Everyone's goal when writing a post anywhere on this site should be to respect others and cultivate a welcoming community where beneficial and inclusive discussion occurs. No one should resort to being rude especially when talking to a new player. Be constructive, be kind, and be welcoming.

Zapcre No, Heliolisk is not viable. Yes, Heliolisk is outclassed. But should that prevent you from using it? No it should not. Pokemon is nothing without innovation and using Pokemon that no one else uses and attempting to make them work is a commendable feat. It is your right to ask questions because there aren't ridiculous questions.


I see no merit in most RUBL Pokemon. However I find discussing them important and interesting so here are my thoughts. I place them in 6 categories:

Utterly Useless:

These Pokemon are outclassed but I also have zero interest in ever using them so they stay in this category. Zoroark has poor defenses, a crappy ability, and that's kinda it. There's no reason to use Zoroark when Hydreigon exists and as long as there is team preview Zoroark will suprise no one. Tornadus doesn't have Mega Pidgeot's ability to not miss Hurricane or Moltres' ability to wall Scizor. For these reasons and more it is outclassed by all birds. Durant has to have Hone Claws to be threatening and is easily revenge killed by anything faster and with a special move so it has no sweeping potential.

Personal Dislike:

5 of 6 UU Fairies wall this Pokemon. Most teams have a Fairy. Most teams have a Choice Scarfer. Most teams have Scizor. This Pokemon poses no threat but I like it too much to put it in utterly useless.

Outclassed:

Entei is outclassed by Infernape and any Fire-type with a secondary typing because Entei can't abuse its walls and is weak to rocks. Why use Sharpedo when you can use its Mega. Why use Mega Absol when you can use any other Dark-type but Zoroark. I love this mon but it's to frail to do damage and to slow to make up for its frailty. It is outclassed by Bisharp and the many Sucker Punch resists in UU laugh in its face.

Niche:

Niche Pokemon essentially have a unique quality which makes them useful in some situations but not entirely viable. Venomoth can be a great late game breaker because no Pokemon can resist it (b/c of Tinted Lens). Sub Disable is what makes it even better. However with Scizor and Crawdaunt and Infernape and Terrakion being able to RKO at +1 it can't do much. Gale Wings nerf makes Talonflame worse but still niche. I just don't like a Pokemon who is helpless with rocks up. Reuniclus has the unique ability to decimate stall because of high special attack + Psyshock and Magic Guard + Recover but with most stall teams running Muk, Hydreigon, or Scizor it really struggles to win. Also Trick Room as a whole is sucky, just my opinion. And Mienshao with Assault Vest has brought it back into usage but its still niche and is outclassed as a Choice Scarfer by other fighting types because of speed and secondary ability.

Rip Drought:

Being weak to Rocks, having no reliable recovery, and without Drought the sun, both literally and metaphorically, does not smile on this mon. With sun its broken, without sun its mediocre. Mega Doom is undoubtedly a fantastic breaker but it lacks immediate power and has to rely on Nasty Plot. Forfeiting one turn to set up Mega Houndoom is too easily revenge killed and does not have many switch in opportunities. With Hydreigon's usage at an all time high Mega Houndoom poses little threat.

Should Be UU:

Kyurem is a very difficult Pokemon to counter. With Sylveon's usage in the dumpster and the ability to stall out Moon Blasts from Florges and Mega Altaria (which is forced to use Moon Blast because of Kommo-o) Kyurem can walk over teams. It can use Sub Roost, Scarf, Specs, and Z. It has versatility, a great matchup against all playstyles, and fantastic stats. This Pokemon is a threat and should be UU.

Happy posting and stay positive UU!

 

[Sickist]

Speaking of Kyurem, i'd like to discuss it a little more in-depth. As itsjustdrew said, Kyurem is an interesting mon in the meta atm. Sylveon's usage is inside the trashcan atm, and (also like drew said) Kyurem can PP stall Mega Altaria's moonblasts. However, Fighting types are everywhere and that's not great for Kyurem. So what are everyone's thoughts on the Iceberg?

 

[Duck Chris]

I've been running some admittedly mediocre stall on the ladder for a bit and I'd like to share some thoughts on current trends.

This guy is a lot of fun. Checks Latias as well as a ton of physical threats; it always stays alive just a little longer than expected. Main pro for me is keeping scizor from spamming BP and checking bisharp. It doesn't like fighting spam and the rise of Nidoking though. Overall I think mega-steelix earns its place on some teams, more people should try it out!

This guy is super annoying. The mixed set can break pretty much anything but the most dedicated counters. One of the more effective wallbreakers right now, it's like Infernape but more annoying. Seems like most people rely on Primarina or Doublade to take a hit? Please help honestly.

Amazing mon versus stall, nothing new to see here. I do think it's a bit underrated even against more offensive teams especially with Substitute. Yeah we have a lot of fighting types most of them really don't want to take an Ice Beam or Earth Power so if you can get Kyurem in on a safe switch it definitely applies a lot of pressure. I think the only thing it really suffers from is the fact that we have three other very viable dragons in Latias, Hyderigon, and Kommo. I honestly expect Kyurem to shine in SPL so I look forward to that.

Chesnaught is just ok. Spikes are nice but having to switch out against Moltres Latias Rotom-H and other defoggers isn't great. On top of that it also doesn't excel against Starmie or Tentacruel, although it can usually keep them from switching in directly. Overall I feel like there are better Bisharp counters so it's probably a bit outclassed unless it's that perfect niche you need filled.

Still Great:

Also liking:

 

[Raidx]

Unpopular opinion, but honestly I don't really see a reason to use CM Z-Latias over NP Z (or even no Z) Azelf. I've felt this way for a while and I still can't justify using CM Lati when Azelf is there just chillin. The way I see it the only things Lati has over Azelf is a stronger nuke in Z-Draco and better bulk (and maybe dual stab). Azelf is more of a threat at +2, has the exact same relevant coverage options and then some, and actually beats Blissey w NP Psyshock. Why use a Pursuit weak CM breaker when you can use a Pursuit weak NP breaker that doesn't get Toxic + Softboiled to death by Blissey and actually ohkoes shit like M-Aggron and Klefki w Electrium, as well as still threatening Steels in general without the need of a Z-crystal w Fire Blast/Flamethrower. I'll edit w calcs tomorrow as i'm on mobile and just wanted to get this off my chest.

 

[Moutemoute]

Latias is better than Azelf because :

• It has a better Bulk : 80/90/130 vs 75/70/70 which means it's less weak to priorities and Pursuit
• It has a good way of recovery thanks to Recover/Roost which means it can setup on passive foes
• It brings much more utility thanks to Defog/Healing Wish and usually thanks to its Bulk + Recovery, it's able to check some threats where Azelf can't

In short, Latias isn't just a setup Sweeper but a Pokemon that can fulfil a plethora of roles while bringing some support and utility to its team/teammates.

 

[Raidx]

Latias is better than Azelf because :

• It has a better Bulk : 80/90/130 vs 75/70/70 which means it's less weak to priorities and Pursuit
• It has a good way of recovery thanks to Recover/Roost which means it can setup on passive foes
• It brings much more utility thanks to Defog/Healing Wish and usually thanks to its Bulk + Recovery, it's able to check some threats where Azelf can't

In short, Latias isn't just a setup Sweeper but a Pokemon that can fulfil a plethora of roles while bringing some support and utility to its team/teammates.

I was referring specfically to CM Lati, not the other sets. Latias has better bulk yea but overall i don't really think that's enough to completely justify over Azelf. Setting up vs passive foes alludes to stall/balance, which in my mind plays out like this: CM w Lati, they switch into something like Blissey or M-Aggron. Blissey Toxics you then softboils till you die or forced to switch since +1 Psyshock aint enough, M-Aggron Toxics you since +1 Z-Thunder doesn't kill, then Lati is put on a timer, forced to use either Draco and lowering it's stats or risk a 70% Thunder while poisoned. M-Alt also halts Lati as well as it resists Thunder and is immune to Draco (ngl idk how much +1 Psyshock does if you predict that switch) and just Return/Body Slam's it. So unless I'm missing something Lati setting up vs passive mons and getting away unscathed is unlikely. The Pursuit argument I disagree w since living a scarf Knock from Krook at full then roosting to escape trapping is barely a justifiable reason considering you need to be at full + it's still a 50/50 since it can be scarf Crunch Krook which ohkoes Z-Lati after rocks. I'll admit Lati fares better vs Aero's Pursuit as well as BP from Sciz due to it's bulk, but overall I still think Azelf is a better breaker from my reasons stated earlier. Trade bulk for immediate breaking power and not as reliant on Z-crystals.

 

[avarice]

I think a better a comparison to azelf would be celebi, who is actually a fellow NP user. I'll admit azelf does tend to break things better with its higher spa and speed tier, and not needing a z is huge too. Azelf setting up requires either taking a very very weak hit, setting up on a choice locked eq, or spore with a pinch of faith. Meanwhile, celebi can force grounds out and use its typing well and actually get the chance to set up. Giga Drain healing lets celebi recover the chip damage from the passive mons.

#FreePsyshockCelebi

 

[TentaBuildings]

Hi! New to UU, and wanted to ask some what some of the most popular cores are in the current meta. Would love it if someone could help me with this!

 

[Moutemoute]

There you go : https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-uu-cores-v2.3639397/
Obviously there is more cores than that but you can see a bunch of them in this thread.

 

[TentaBuildings]

There you go : https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-uu-cores-v2.3639397/

Oh shoot I completely scrolled past that lol. Thanks!

 

[pokemonisfun]

In this post, I will alert the UU community to two powerful tactics that I have been using in response to ladder adaptations.

The first tactic is omniboosting, using a Z move like Z-Celebrate to get +1 in every stat. This is a highly underrated tactic as many of the premier users of it are not ranked and received little discussion over the past several months as a Smogon search shows.

I have been using a team provided to me by Scizorphobic, although I don't know if he made it, with Z Celebrate Shaymin. Shaymin is a good user of omniboosting is because it has awesome coverage, bulk, and speed after a boost.

• On coverage, it can beat most Pokemon except walls, Fire types, and Poison types after a boost. But it could easily run Earth Power over Hidden Power Fire to beat most Fire and Poison types, at the cost of being weaker to Scizor
• On bulk, Shaymin has an exceptionally easy time setting up on many Ground and Water Pokemon that most teams use, and the good initial speed means it can often get a boost before being attacked, enabling it to set up on attackers like Crawdaunt and surviving even Scarf Infernape's Flareblitz after a boost
• On speed, cannot be revenge killed by several of the most common Choice Scarf users like Krookodile, Hydreigon, and Latias, nor can it be revenge killed by naturally super fast Pokemon like Mega-Aerodactyl, Zeraora, and Mega-Beedrill

Obviously Shaymin has some problems too, the biggest of which is that it's really one time use and can't adequately counter things like Suicune because Seed Flare's low PP unless you want to use it on a hyper offense team, in which case being one time use is less of a problem. Also, while the good coverage is a plus, it never has perfect coverage and still struggles with Blissey and Blissey-esque walls.

That said, the metagame is clearly not prepared for it as some of my games have shown.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-826803086

Big word scares me is running a perfectly reasonable team, with two good responses to pif's Shaymin set, Infernape and Gengar. But one is easily Pursuit trapped because of dual Pursuit on the team, while the other had to take massive damage trying to revenge kill Scizor. After setting up SR and weakening some Pokemon so Shaymin didn't even have to rely on Seed Flare for Mega Aerodactyl, pif easily sets up an opportunity to sweep on Slowbro on turn 27 to win the game.

Look through your own team builders. I feel confident that most of your teams would not have more than 2 checks to Shaymin and they would have at least 1 Pokemon that Shaymin could set up on. Furthermore, your checks like Gengar and Chandelure could easily be dismantled by Earth Power. Shaymin is the best example we have right now we have of an underrated strategy, omnioboosting.

The second tactic is specially defensive Cresselia. Cresselia itself is usually dismissed because of the influence of Scizor in the tier, which Cresselia can hardly respond to bar Hidden Power Fire, and because of the poor defensive attributes besides the base stats (bad typing and Recovery).

However, one trend I noticed on the ladder is a surge of mixed Nidoking, which takes advantage of both Altaria which has risen because Zeraora and Blissey which is a stall staple. With Lucario and Infernape often running Nasty Plot now to bypass Quagsire (to some extent), I thought the time was ripe for specially defensive Cresselia to counter these threats. Specially defensive Cresselia is useful solely because it can counter some otherwise powerful stallbreakers, including

• Nidoking, which as mentioned before can annihilate some common stall cores - in this game, pif has hardly any response to 14 yo kid's Nidoking and just crumples, especially because Nidoking uses attack investment to guarantee a kill on Blissey
• Lucario, which can also annihilate some common stall cores because it can OHKO Quagsire with Z Focus Blast
• Infernape, which does similar things
• Azelf and Latias, which can bypass Blissey with Psyshock, can be Toxic stalled by Cresselia
• Even Reuniclus, can be dealt with to some extent with either Skill Swap (although that means giving up Moonblast probably) or even Flash (which still costs a move slot and is less reliable but deals with more Pokemon in general)

Unfortunately, Work Up Pidgeot, NP Togekiss, and Chandelure cannot be dealt with and Gengar is at best very shakey.

With this set, Cresselia can help deal with some stallbreakers better (although it's not completely perfect versus any of them except Nidoking) and has still extraordinary bulk in general, deterring attacks like Choice Band Close Combat from Terrakion.

My fellow UU players and community members, I always love playing with you and hearing from you. Thank you! Hope you all enjoy the weekend.

 

[avarice]

View attachment 148910

I have been using a team provided to me by Scizorphobic, although I don't know if he made it, with Z Celebrate Shaymin. Shaymin is a good user of omniboosting is because it has awesome coverage, bulk, and speed after a boost.

It’s basically Shiba ’s Shamin team but just changed a bit since Breloom isn’t in the tier now (switched aero’s moveset a bit and gave coba rocky helmet). Glad you’ve been enjoying it though ^^

 

[Moutemoute]

Alright folks, let's talk about some UUBL which might be interesting in UU !

Advantages for the tier : Alakazam is blessed by an amazing Speed of 120 which allows it to naturally check some threats in UU like non-Choice Scarf Hydreigon, Terrakion, Cobalion, non-Choice Scarf Infernape, Kommo-o, Nasty Plot Lucario etc.. Thanks to its great Special Attack and good Movepool (with options like Calm Mind, Recover, Encore, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Focus Blast or Counter), Alakazam will be for sure a really good threat in Underused. It also has a really good ability : Magic Guard which allows it to not take damages for Entry Hazards, Poison, Burn or Life Orb etc.. which is really good especially for it's Focus Sash + Counter Set.

Drawbacks for the tier : Alakazam was a nasty threat back in the beginning of UU SM thanks to it's Focus Sash + Counter set which was a pain in the ass to deal with but also thanks to its Life Orb Set which hits freaking hard. Thanks to Encore or Calm Mind, Alakazam was able to put a lot of pressure on Stall. I think this Pokemon will be kinda annoying to face but I think a retest might be doable.

----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------

Advantages for the tier : Ninetales-A is in my opinion a really cool Pokemon and it's kinda sad that it's UUBL just because of Aurora Veil. If we look at Aurorus's + Sandslash-Alola's usages in UU it's really low which means Aurora Veil Offense are not anymore a thing in UU :

| 162 | Sandslash-Alola | 0.36699% | 1919 | 0.367% | 1590 | 0.384% |
| 174 | Aurorus | 0.30962% | 1619 | 0.310% | 1414 | 0.341% |

| 145 | Sandslash-Alola | 0.35523% | 1919 | 0.367% | 1590 | 0.384% |
| 163 | Aurorus | 0.26447% | 1619 | 0.310% | 1414 | 0.341% |

| 134 | Sandslash-Alola | 0.34150% | 1919 | 0.367% | 1590 | 0.384% |
| 137 | Aurorus | 0.32986% | 1619 | 0.310% | 1414 | 0.341% |

| 118 | Aurorus | 0.35484% | 1619 | 0.310% | 1414 | 0.341% |
| 120 | Sandslash-Alola | 0.34748% | 1919 | 0.367% | 1590 | 0.384% |

As had been done in the past for Drought and Houndoom-Mega, I think it will be a really good thing to ban Aurora Veil from UU and unbanned Ninetales-Alola because it's a fun Pokemon and the only thing which makes it broken is the fact that it can setup the Aurora Veil immediately thanks to Snow Warning.

Drawbacks for the tier : If Ninetales-Alola is unbanned for this reason (and Aurora Veil becomes illegal), then we can not play anymore Aurorus + Sandslash Alola Veil Offense but eh it's not common anymore so it shouldn't be a big deal.

----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------

Advantages for the tier : It's been so long that Staraptor has been asked for a retest but still nothing.. Staraptor is an incredbile Wallbreaker / Revenge Killer thanks to its Speed Tier, its Attack and the combinaison of Brave Bird / Double Edge + Reckless which allows it to hit like a truck. However, this attacks have a lot of recoil which prevent Staraptor to pressure a team during the whole match. Also, even if UU always struggled with powerful flying types, we have Pokemon like Steelix-Mega, Aggron-Mega, Alomomola or to a lesser extent Aerodactyl-Mega, Manectric-Mega, Cobalion, Terrakion to take some hits from Staraptor and punish it back.

Drawbacks for the tier : Thanks to Close Combat / U-Turn / Final Gambit, Staraptor may be tricky to face because it can bypass some its checks.

 

[Twilight]

I can't speak much on Alakazam or Staraptor as I am not too aware as to why they were banned whether it was due to the meta or just the Mon in general etc. But honestly I would love for Alolan-Ninetales to be re-introduced into the tier if Aurora Veil was banned instead. It wouldn't be meta breaking as the tier is already littered with steel types and thanks to its rather limited movepool its best form of coverage is HP Fire. As Moute said I don't think this would have much drawback as yeah Sandslash + Aurorus isn't that common and is more niche than anything. Ninetales would be a great addition as another offensive Ice type to rival against Kyurem, not to mention fairy typing is incredible in general. It is also blessed with that 109 Speed meaning it can outpace the likes of Terrakion, Cobalion etc. I could definitely see some Specs or Nasty Plot sets being very common for it. It's ability Snow Warning will still be useful thanks to it getting 100% accurate Blizzards, but yeah I don't think it would be a massive game changer for the tier especially with Scizor being everywhere as usual to bop it. Plus it looks cool :3

 

[Sabbio]

I'm glad Moute brought this up because I really wanted to talk about possible retests for a while.

I would really like to see, if not a retest, at least some discussion on this Pokémon too. I feel like its ban was influenced heavily by Amoonguss leaving the tier while also taking advantage of the meta being either very bulky or volt turn at the time, against which or into which Azu put an enormous amount of work. It would help against the Fighting spam running around these days but this is in my opinion a minor factor in a possible retest.

I would also ask your opinion on Dragonite. I can see it being an enormous threat, but against which the tier is, in my opinion, prepared for. In fact:

• Z-Fly sets have a big one-time nuke, though it obviously has its flaws, as it can break past its checks like bulky Prim, Hippo and Florges/Sylveon, bulky Altaria, bulky SD Scizor only once: this obviously means no Extreme Speed. Also M-Aggron can take it on.
• Even when at +1, it's still slower than Mega Aero, Scarf Hydra and Krook. While revenge killing this thing is not a joke, expecially when multiscale is up, the latter will more often than not be broken in the process of setting up.
• To a lesser degree, it costs your z-move user, which means that you can't use potent wallbreakers like Z Terrak, Z Kommoo or Z Lati. This is a quite minor factor, though I wanted to mention it regardless.
• I can see an expert belt set or a CB set being ran, but this is not DPP and the dd set will probably be more common.

On the other side of the spectrum:

• The tier is very prepared for Dragon-types, which means that Latias checks are the same as what will probably be your dnite check, which can ultimately make teambuilding very difficult when accounting these two threats.
• Its offensively no joke. While obviously not unbeatable per se, the ease it has to set up even in front of Fairy-types and blow them away with ssss is very strong, expecially in an ho environment alongside mega shark and spikes.

Now onto what Moute said:

Advantages for the tier : Ninetales-A is in my opinion a really cool Pokemon and it's kinda sad that it's UUBL just because of Aurora Veil. If we look at Aurorus's + Sandslash-Alola usages in UU it's really low which means Aurora Veil Offense are not anymore a thing in UU :

| 162 | Sandslash-Alola | 0.36699% | 1919 | 0.367% | 1590 | 0.384% |
| 174 | Aurorus | 0.30962% | 1619 | 0.310% | 1414 | 0.341% |

| 145 | Sandslash-Alola | 0.35523% | 1919 | 0.367% | 1590 | 0.384% |
| 163 | Aurorus | 0.26447% | 1619 | 0.310% | 1414 | 0.341% |

| 134 | Sandslash-Alola | 0.34150% | 1919 | 0.367% | 1590 | 0.384% |
| 137 | Aurorus | 0.32986% | 1619 | 0.310% | 1414 | 0.341% |

| 118 | Aurorus | 0.35484% | 1619 | 0.310% | 1414 | 0.341% |
| 120 | Sandslash-Alola | 0.34748% | 1919 | 0.367% | 1590 | 0.384% |

As had been done in the past for Drought and Houndoom-Mega, I think it will be a really good thing to ban Aurora Veil from UU and unbanned Ninetales-Alola because it's a fun Pokemon and the only thing which makes it broken is the fact that it can setup the Aurora Veil immediately thanks to Snow Warning.

Aurora Veil is not a thing in UU currently because it takes two teamslots to do what AlolanTails does in one. I would prefer an Aurora Veil ban to be honest in stead of a Ninetails one so this mon could see some use, though it would obviously not be the right choice to make since the problem is tails, not veil. Not sure about this one, leaning towards a still broken.

Advantages for the tier : Alakazam is blessed by an amazing Speed of 120 which allows it to naturally check some threats in UU like non-Choice Scarf Hydreigon, Terrakion, Cobalion, non-Choice Scarf Infernape, Kommo-o, Nasty Plot Lucario etc.. Thanks to its great Special Attack and good Movepool (with options like Calm Mind, Recover, Encore, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Focus Blast or Counter), Alakazam will be for sure a really good threat in Underused. It also has a really good ability : Magic Guard which allows it to not take damages for Entry Hazards, Poison, Burn or Life Orb etc.. which is really good especially for it's Focus Sash + Counter Set.

Drawbacks for the tier : Alakazam was a nasty threat back in the beginning of UU SM thanks to it's Focus Sash + Counter set which was a pain in the ass to deal with but also thanks to its Life Orb Set which hits freaking hard. Thanks to Encore or Calm Mind, Alakazam was able to put a lot of pressure on Stall. I think this Pokemon will be kinda annoying to face but I think a retest might be doable.

Sash Zam is still dumb. Sash makes it a very strong revenge killer and the fact that it can 1vs1 almost every stall build with cm + psyshock + energy ball + focus blast makes teambuilding a pain. You also don't know right from team preview which set it is: how you play vs sash zam is completely different from how you play vs lo zam. It, in my humble opinion, still broken. Yeah Pursuit and stuff but then again, sash means that it can beat your krook for a threat in the back ready to mop up.

I don't really have an opinion on raptor, I think that it's still very good expecially when paired with Moltres since they share the same checks and counters, also blows past a lot of Flying resists mons like Rotom-H and Empo way to easily. It kills itself in the process though so i'm not so sure about it being so absurdly busted.

 

[SilvioGuacamole]

While it’s definitely useful to talk about potential options for the tier, it’s pretty generally agreed that SM UU is in it’s best state since the generation began, and is imho the most balanced lower tier, both for ladder and competitive play. Why would we fuck with that? I’ll address points on each of the mons in turn, but they would all have a destabilizing effect on the meta and if I’m honest, feels very “we’re bored, let’s drop something,”.

Advantages for the tier : Alakazam is blessed by an amazing Speed of 120 which allows it to naturally check some threats in UU like non-Choice Scarf Hydreigon, Terrakion, Cobalion, non-Choice Scarf Infernape, Kommo-o, Nasty Plot Lucario etc.. Thanks to its great Special Attack and good Movepool (with options like Calm Mind, Recover, Encore, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Focus Blast or Counter), Alakazam will be for sure a really good threat in Underused. It also has a really good ability : Magic Guard which allows it to not take damages for Entry Hazards, Poison, Burn or Life Orb etc.. which is really good especially for it's Focus Sash + Counter Set.

Drawbacks for the tier : Alakazam was a nasty threat back in the beginning of UU SM thanks to it's Focus Sash + Counter set which was a pain in the ass to deal with but also thanks to its Life Orb Set which hits freaking hard. Thanks to Encore or Calm Mind, Alakazam was able to put a lot of pressure on Stall. I think this Pokemon will be kinda annoying to face but I think a retest might be doable.

Starting with Zam, this thing is ridiculous. While LO 3 Attacks, CM Recover and Encore sets all have their merits and massive power, they’re overshadowed somewhat by the Sash Counter 3 Attacks set, which iirc was the reason it was banned in the first place. This set 1v1s a huge portion of the metagame, and still leave you with a 1 hp magic guard mon with great coverage and sp atk. While the omnipresence of fast pursuit mons like Aero and Krook means it is often limited to one kill, but it is massively in the Alakazam player’s favour as to when you decide to use that ‘free kill’ card. Zam certainly wouldn’t be healthy, as Sash + Counter fucks offense and CM/Encore LO Sets mess up fat balance and stall.

I have less of a strong opinion on Alolatails, but 2 mon Aurora Veil is still a viable archetype, if somewhat overshadowed by other HOs. It doesn’t make much sense to me to completely nuke an entire playstyle (if a niche one) and eradicate the viability of several mons (Aurorus, Sandslash, Linoone etc) for the sake of a frankly, pretty bad mon, which doesn’t balance anything particularly troublesome.

Advantages for the tier : It's been so long that Staraptor has been asked for a retest but still nothing.. Staraptor is an incredbile Wallbreaker / Revenge Killer thanks to its Speed Tier, its Attack and the combinaison of Brave Bird / Double Edge + Reckless which allows it to hit like a truck. However, this attacks have a lot of recoil which prevent Staraptor to pressure a team during the whole match. Also, even if UU always struggled with powerful flying types, we have Pokemon like Steelix-Mega, Aggron-Mega, Alomomola or to a lesser extent Aerodactyl-Mega, Manectric-Mega, Cobalion, Terrakion to take some hits from Staraptor and punish it back.

Drawbacks for the tier : Thanks to Close Combat / U-Turn / Final Gambit, Staraptor may be tricky to face because it can bypass some its checks.

The main thing that concerns me about Raptor is its ridiculous damage output, combined with a speed tier allowing it to get the jump on key stuff like Kommo-o, Togekiss and Suicine. Banded BB/CC sets hit like a truck, and you either need rocks or suit Aero/Krook in order to limit this thing to a fair amount of kills. Balance just has no switch-ins if it clicks the right button, as shown by this ridiculous calc (not even Adamant, which isn’t as bad as it sounds, still outpacing everything up to and including the Rotom forms).

252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Scarf is also threatening, getting the jump on shit like Aero, Scarf Hydrei and Krook. Its power output, while a lot less impressive than banded sets, is still sufficient to dispatch most of the threats it would want to revenge after a little chip.

I would really like to see, if not a retest, at least some discussion on this Pokémon too. I feel like its ban was influenced heavily by Amoonguss leaving the tier while also taking advantage of the meta being either very bulky or volt turn at the time, against which or into which Azu put an enormous amount of work. It would help against the Fighting spam running around these days but this is in my opinion a minor factor in a possible retest.

Pretty much nothing has changed since Azu was banned except Amoongus, which isn’t nearly a perfect counter and isn’t seeing as much usage as it did before it left to OU last time. Azu still 2HKOs the entire tier, and if anything is more scary with the better tools spikes teams have gotten access to, in Bisharp and the rise of Chesnaught. Azu would act as a fantastic breaker on spikes builds, with Amoongus unable to recover long-term with hazards, and knock as an option for Tenta/Empoleon. Z Belly Drum and Perish Trap varients would still have that dangerous surprise factor, too, which was another huge part of Azu’s initial ban. Pretty much nothing has changed to make it less effective/broken than when it was here last.

I don’t really have much of an opinion on Dragonite, but we have a pretty solid tier at the moment and it makes no sense to me to destabilise that, seemingly for the sake of boredom. The mons discussed so far are either just blatantly broken (Zam), or just aren’t worth the opportunity cost to reintoriduce to the tier (Alolatails). Discussion on the state of the metagame is obviously valuable, but I think we’re barking up the wrong tree in terms of trying to improve the tier through drops. Anyway, that’s just my 2 cents.

TL,DR:
UU’s lit already don’t drop these, they’re broken anyway

 

[Sickist]

The ONLY UUBL I would get behind dropping is Ninetails-Alola ONLY if Aurora Veil is banned instead (which isnt happening probably). Ninetails Alola kinda sucks without veil so I'd love to use it in UU or hell maybe even RU.

 

[Freeroamer]

Why would we ban aurora veil just to make ninetales usable? While they can definitely be annoying from a matchup perspective, Aurorus+Sandslash teams are clearly not broken or too powerful in the tier but Ninetales veil was, which just goes to show that the broken element was the pokemon not the move. Also would you seriously use Ninetales outside of an omg there’s a new pkmn available to use initial hype? This mon brings an annoying weather condition, SR weakness, and really crappy defensive typing in general to your squad and gives back what exactly? It’s not breaking teams, it’s not cleaning them, it’s not checking threats reliably so I don’t rly get why we’d go back on sound logic just to make it so we can use this pokemon in UU.

I do not think the tier in it’s current state needs touching, I think a mistake a lot of people make is confusing stability for staleness, just because there hasn’t been a suspect or new drops does not mean the tier is stale, far from it. Watching champs, majors and other replays just shows me how much diversity there is to be found here if you’re willing to break stride a little bit and try different stuff. Sometimes the best course of action is no action, and I think that’s what we have here.

 

[Duck Chris]

| 34 | Gligar | 6.008% |
| 41 | Chesnaught | 5.335% |
| 49 | Doublade | 3.872% |
| 51 | Froslass | 3.621% |
| 52 | Steelix-Mega | 3.491% |

Stats for November are out and here are some lower tier mons that have been getting some shine in UU!
Nothing too surprising here, I think everyone can attest to seeing a whole lot more gligar and chesnaught, as well as the spammable spikes sprite Froslass. Good to see some more love for Doublade, I think it's quite good right now, being a great check to Kommo-O as well as Terrakion.


| 8 | Bisharp | 13.08902% | 59692 | 11.415% | 44964 | 10.850% |
| 9 | Zeraora | 12.93193% | 71880 | 13.746% | 56432 | 13.618% |
| 10 | Primarina | 12.60257% | 49410 | 9.449% | 40474 | 9.767% |

The new and improved section of the usage stats: bisharp and zeraora are settling in nicely, and primarina moves up 12 spots to cement itself as a top 10 mon. One question i do have however is in regards to the following pokemon:

| 7 | Altaria-Mega | 13.09627% | 54337 | 10.391% | 40587 | 9.794% |

What are people running on altaria these days? I guess it's good against mega-shark spikes teams but it seems like the prevalence of lati + kommo-O should make this thing less good. Has anyone had success with a particular set?

 

[Sickist]

Why would we ban aurora veil just to make ninetales usable? While they can definitely be annoying from a matchup perspective, Aurorus+Sandslash teams are clearly not broken or too powerful in the tier but Ninetales veil was, which just goes to show that the broken element was the pokemon not the move. Also would you seriously use Ninetales outside of an omg there’s a new pkmn available to use initial hype? This mon brings an annoying weather condition, SR weakness, and really crappy defensive typing in general to your squad and gives back what exactly? It’s not breaking teams, it’s not cleaning them, it’s not checking threats reliably so I don’t rly get why we’d go back on sound logic just to make it so we can use this pokemon in UU.

I do not think the tier in it’s current state needs touching, I think a mistake a lot of people make is mistaking stability for staleness, just because there hasn’t been a suspect or new drops does not mean the tier is stale, far from it. Watching champs, majors and other replays just shows me how much diversity there is to be found here if you’re willing to break stride a little bit and try different stuff. Sometimes the best course of action is no action, and I think that’s what we have here.

Perhaps I should clarify. I do not see the need for any drops and I agree with the tier being stable, not stale. I was just trying to round off the whole UUBL thing as nothing will ever be unbanned. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[avarice]

I don't disagree with Froslass being viable rn, but personally idt it will get the usage to rise later. Can't remember it being used outside of Adaam's team with my own time laddering. Steelix-M, however, I think is destined to rise soon. Reliably answering Latias and Scizor is always going to be valuable. As well as providing an electric immunity of course. Chesnaught might not seeing as there already is a drop off in its usage with the decrease of Zeraora and Bisharp. Gligar is certainly leaving next month though.

 

[Taptricity]

| 7 | Altaria-Mega | 13.09627% | 54337 | 10.391% | 40587 | 9.794% |

What are people running on altaria these days? I guess it's good against mega-shark spikes teams but it seems like the prevalence of lati + kommo-O should make this thing less good. Has anyone had success with a particular set?

Mega Altaria is amazing atm because as a support mon it’s a really good check to the mons you mentioned above along with Hydreigon. The DD Refresh set is also a very potent sweeper and stallbreaker currently. Double Dragon teams also aren’t too uncommon to run into and a lot of these teams carries Mega Altaria along with the second Dragon. Mega Altaria just carries a variety of sets either offensively or support. Hope that clears things up.

 

[Duck Chris]

Does anyone know where I can find a list to UU's full ban list? The one at https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/formats/uu/ seems outdated as it doesn't even include drought.