Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[SpritePony]

if that's how you feel then so be it. wishing you the best in moving forward and i hope you find a community you feel at home with like you once did this one. take care, we'll miss you

I can't say I "once did", as it was just a younger me enjoying battles with random crap. Back when it was a lot more of people screwing around and less on "unga bunga biggest thing go brr". I wish I could have those things again, but with Little Timmies and their Ubers in-game, IRCs being dead, and Showdown being pretty much tryhard central due to it being a Ranked system, it doesn't seem like I'll be getting that again.

Yeah, I get you (I think). I don't think its anyone's fault in particular, but discussions can get heated and people can be (unintentionally or intentionally) passionate regarding certain topics & may be making points that may sound harsher (or in my case annoying/repetitive) than initially intended. This site is meant more as a social hub more than anything else + I think the like system makes it so that clout matters a lot here, so getting hit w/ a harsh post that says you're wrong that also proceeds to get a bunch of likes makes it feel you are alone / stranded when making certain points or arguements (I know I certainly feel that way multiple times on this site, even very recently, & I most certainly contribute to that problem). At the end of the day though, these discussions are one thing, but actually playing the game is something else & I think its more important to value & prioritize that over anything discussed on these forums.

If nothing else, I think it was pretty cool that you experimented with some cool sets and ideas, rather than mostly playing it safe like I do.

Yeah, I'll still keep experimenting with stuff, but no community really is fit for me. Or... Me fit for them, whichever is the correct one. Smog is mostly too tryhard-y because of ranking and clout, VGC isn't my scene anymore (I had a hell of a lot of fun running TR Sand in Gen 6), Stunfisk is like... The little brother to the Smog forums, and if you even DARE mention Smog's name in any other Pokemon SubReddit, you get jumped on.

Thanks for your kind words, guys. It helps a little bit, but I sincerely doubt I'll ever fit in anywhere. I was even in pokemonisfun's UU Discord for a bit, but had to leave due to being jumped on after a couple of people got toxically heated with one another and I called in a mod to get them to cool it. Even in there I was getting dumped on for wanting to play around with fun shenanigans like Loaded Dice MoxieCross. (Otherwise known at Mega Hera Copium by some.)

 

[tigers jaw]

Honestly speaking, my opinions have always been shot down and stomped on. Just because I enjoy playing balance with ""passive"" mons, people will call the mons themselves, or even cores, bad because they're too busy jerking off BO and HO.
When I try to express any form of potential counterpoints, as I did today, I get shit on for making small, forgetful mistakes, or people going "why the hell you bringing this up when this isn't even relevant?" when talking entirely in hypotheticals.

It's better for me to be gone. I'm not going to stink up this thread anymore with my bullshit, but I'll leave it with this; I don't harbour any ill will to most of you here. (Only one person in particular, but you can sniff them out a few pages back.) I've followed the Smogon rulesets since I started getting into battling back in Serebii's IRC chats in Gen 4, and I've tried to defend Smogon's name against toxic, elitist purists who say Smog is an evil group, blah blah blah. But I fit neither here, nor in VGC, nor in the casuals communities. Never have, never will. I'm too casual for Smogon, too ""competitive"" for casuals, and well... SV VGC is a dumpster fire lmao. TatsuDon, our busted and banned Paradoxes (plus some others) running amok, and now Ruins legal.

The whole discussion around Acupressure was farcical (ur a don but take the L slainey), but your rebuttals weren’t well-informed with regard to the metagame. Naturally, if you are involved in discussion & defending your point of view, others are going to point out the flaws.

That being said, it’d be a shame for you to leave based on this alone. Everyone (well, almost everyone) is welcome here, as it’s a great place to learn, grow, & engage with the community. With this in mind, surely you can look past this one instance, no?

 

[1LDK]

g jumped on after a couple of people got toxically heated with one another

Alright so, I'm gonna break character for a bit, and I'm gonna try to cheer you up not from 1LDK, but from the person who is behind the name, keep in mind I'm bad at this stuff so if you end up worse than I'm sorry I tried

character break

Just do the things you wanna do without caring about others, sure this hard when you're feeling oppressed, but we are just people on the internet, I'm gonna give you some examples of cases where I have been stomped (here on smogon)

My teams are bad due to me putting constant gimmicks and memes for the sake of going out of the rule
Many people have tried to sell me on Booster Energy Valiant as his most dangerous and banworthy set, but to me, it's shit, and people think I'm dumb
I constantly defend shit mons like Sylveon, Chesnaught and even tried to get Donphan for a nom rank at the start of the gen

and If I start to talk about my personal life, my entire life is a lost cause anyways

Are you playing to have fun yourself? Or to please that nerd who says stuff like "bro why you banned iron bundle just run blyssey" or the guy who says "bro why you wanna ban garganacl just put cover cloak on every single mon"

Regarding the discussion, you lost, it's alright, its just a discussion on the internet, the only one who is gonna care about you failing is you

take it in the chin, strive to do stuff for you and the people you truly appreciate, not the rest, It's okay to have a different opinion that does not hurt anybody, is your opinion on a move on a game made for kids something that is gonna hurt somebody? No, and if it does, then that person is either trolling you or is a literal child

And sure, its hard to do these kinds of stuff sometimes, especially when the rain is heavy, but that's why you don't give up, because you gotta wait for that rainbow, that sunny day and that shining sky, bright as the future of a person who fights to become better each day, even if it is 1 small step at a time

Take a few days off, and come back ready for more action, people are gonna wait for you, and there's at least one guy here who listens and agrees

Anyways that was me talking like an actual person for once, time to go back to character
Booster Energy Bad
Sylveon Good
Chesnaught Good
Corviknight Bad
Stall Bad
Garganacl Bad

 

[SpritePony]

The whole discussion around Acupressure was farcical (ur a don but take the L slainey), but your rebuttals weren’t well-informed with regard to the metagame. Naturally, if you are involved in discussion & defending your point of view, others are going to point out the flaws.

That being said, it’d be a shame for you to leave based on this alone. Everyone (well, almost everyone) is welcome here, as it’s a great place to learn, grow, & engage with the community. With this in mind, surely you can look past this one instance, no?

Alright so, I'm gonna break character for a bit, and I'm gonna try to cheer you up not from 1LDK, but from the person who is behind the name, keep in mind I'm bad at this stuff so if you end up worse than I'm sorry I tried

character break

Just do the things you wanna do without caring about others, sure this hard when you're feeling oppressed, but we are just people on the internet, I'm gonna give you some examples of cases where I have been stomped (here on smogon)

My teams are bad due to me putting constant gimmicks and memes for the sake of going out of the rule
Many people have tried to sell me on Booster Energy Valiant as his most dangerous and banworthy set, but to me, it's shit, and people think I'm dumb
I constantly defend shit mons like Sylveon, Chesnaught and even tried to get Donphan for a nom rank at the start of the gen

and If I start to talk about my personal life, my entire life is a lost cause anyways

Are you playing to have fun yourself? Or to please that nerd who says stuff like "bro why you banned iron bundle just run blyssey" or the guy who says "bro why you wanna ban garganacl just put cover cloak on every single mon"

Regarding the discussion, you lost, it's alright, its just a discussion on the internet, the only one who is gonna care about you failing is you

take it in the chin, strive to do stuff for you and the people you truly appreciate, not the rest, It's okay to have a different opinion that does not hurt anybody, is your opinion on a move on a game made for kids something that is gonna hurt somebody? No, and if it does, then that person is either trolling you or is a literal child

And sure, its hard to do these kinds of stuff sometimes, especially when the rain is heavy, but that's why you don't give up, because you gotta wait for that rainbow, that sunny day and that shining sky, bright as the future of a person who fights to become better each day, even if it is 1 small step at a time

Take a few days off, and come back ready for more action, people are gonna wait for you, and there's at least one guy here who listens and agrees

Anyways that was me talking like an actual person for once, time to go back to character
Booster Energy Bad
Sylveon Good
Chesnaught Good
Corviknight Bad
Stall Bad
Garganacl Bad

I think you guys are slightly misunderstanding here; It wasn't the Acupressure discussion alone that really factored into this. My time in the UU Discord, participation in the UU thread, and overall participation here all were factors into this, as well as my performance on Showdown (both in standard ladder and when going for reqs.) I just simply do not belong with my own playstyles or thoughts on the metagame, and do not feel my voice matters at all. Getting jumped on for it only exacerbates it.

I play for myself. For me, Pokemon is more than a game; It's a way for me to flex my creative mind and problem solving "skills". (I hate calling it that.) In fact, it's the only game/series in the world that I've had experience with where I've gotten this sort of release. I'm neurodivergent (this is important) and certain things about the game tilt me beyond belief (namely Stall, Revival Blessing, and me making obvious and stupid mistakes.) I get tilted, heated, and blow up at stupid shit, as you guys have seen. (Didn't help that someone here decided to be an instigator.) I like to be able to just... Shoot the shit in regards to Pokemon, team building, and metagame related stuff. But to see my opinions on various things being shot down as bad, stupid, etc... You guys see where this is going.

It isn't Pokemon that I merely feel this way toward when it comes to a sense of community. Other communities have resulted in similar things. I've quite literally never had a sense of community, and even though I've mostly accepted that, it still hurts being jumped on for having different thoughts. But alas, that's just me. I've always been different and jumped on for it, be it peers at school, peers in games, or peers in communities.

We'll see if the admins decide to go through with my application or not.

 

[sims796]

Ah, well this sounds like some pretty intense stuff. Hope it works out for yall. Don't wanna sound insensitive by talking about the metagame...but I'mma talk about the metagame. Sorry for interrupting.

So that Decidueye. Cool huh? Or not? Probably not.

 

[viivian]

character break

Just do the things you wanna do without caring about others, sure this hard when you're feeling oppressed, but we are just people on the internet, I'm gonna give you some examples of cases where I have been stomped (here on smogon)

My teams are bad due to me putting constant gimmicks and memes for the sake of going out of the rule
Many people have tried to sell me on Booster Energy Valiant as his most dangerous and banworthy set, but to me, it's shit, and people think I'm dumb
I constantly defend shit mons like Sylveon, Chesnaught and even tried to get Donphan for a nom rank at the start of the gen

and If I start to talk about my personal life, my entire life is a lost cause anyways

Are you playing to have fun yourself? Or to please that nerd who says stuff like "bro why you banned iron bundle just run blyssey" or the guy who says "bro why you wanna ban garganacl just put cover cloak on every single mon"

Regarding the discussion, you lost, it's alright, its just a discussion on the internet, the only one who is gonna care about you failing is you

take it in the chin, strive to do stuff for you and the people you truly appreciate, not the rest, It's okay to have a different opinion that does not hurt anybody, is your opinion on a move on a game made for kids something that is gonna hurt somebody? No, and if it does, then that person is either trolling you or is a literal child

And sure, its hard to do these kinds of stuff sometimes, especially when the rain is heavy, but that's why you don't give up, because you gotta wait for that rainbow, that sunny day and that shining sky, bright as the future of a person who fights to become better each day, even if it is 1 small step at a time

Take a few days off, and come back ready for more action, people are gonna wait for you, and there's at least one guy here who listens and agrees

fully agreed. sprite, if you truly do enjoy playing the game then none of us should be in any position to stop you from doing so. although people do disagree with some opinions you have regarding the game, that's okay! it helps us learn different perspectives and, in some cases, gives us a better understanding of the metagame, like when you and i were debating the reliability of some of walking wake's checks. again, if it's for the better, then you can take as much time off as you need. but otherwise, don't hesitate to post here! even if people don't agree with you, you're still welcomed here and are more than welcome to post here, no matter how many people disagree with your takes (unless it's blatant misinformation, which isn't something i've seen from you)

this is probably the last thing i'll say on the matter before moving on but please do take care and do whatever feels best for you. if you do decide to leave then best wishes for you in the future. we'll miss you

Corviknight Bad
Stall Bad

not cool bro what did i ever do to you

Ah, well this sounds like some pretty intense stuff. Hope it works out for yall. Don't wanna sound insensitive by talking about the metagame...but I'mma talk about the metagame. Sorry for interrupting.

So that Decidueye. Cool huh? Or not? Probably not.

it's a fun fatbreaker with a surprisingly good matchup against most defensive cores but i still don't see it staying in OU. its weaknesses are far too common and its poor speed tier leaves a lot to be desired. decidueye could find a niche for itself as an efficient check offensively to some common defensive presences like great tusk, garganacl, rotom-W, skeledirge, clodsire, hatterene and dondozo, which is a really solid niche to have. but the problem with decidueye is that it matches up horribly into more offensive pokemon, such as gholdengo, dragapult, kingambit, dragonite, roaring moon, meowscarada, garchomp and so on. seems like a niche pick in OU that will die off rather soon once the roster expands via HOME and DLC support

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Walking Wake remains legal in SV OU: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-3-voting.3718231/page-5#post-9547145

good, that means there's another chance to redeem the mistake of not using "walk the dinosaur" as the suspect name

 

[Ast0rga]

There's a small group of people I play with and I'm the leader
And today I had to be harsh with someone (Because we play to win against other groups).
I had to be harsh because his whole team was based around gimmick sets
And he reminded me of myself from years ago when I started playing and all I did was just create "original" sets just to be different, no other reason.
It reminds me of the controversial Verlisfy youtuber too.

But I had to tell my teammate that while I appreciate his creativity, gimmicks alone and just wanting to be different aren't going to cut it (I beat him 3 games in a row without much effort).
I told him that:
1) The most used mons are the most used for a reason
2) The most used sets are the most used for a reason
3) Your team needs a plan and synergy (It really felt like a bunch of gimmicks put together)
4) If you want to be like this other guy in our team that flexes with random teras at high elo, you can't skip steps. You need to learn the meta first. You need to use the easiest stuff available, know the meta, know the game, and then only after you get enough experience, you can start toying with different sets.

I think I was respectful enough since he took it well, but the reason I'm writing all of this here is because
Pony picture guy, when we are harsh towards certain sets, please don't take it personally.
We do it only from the most objective and neutral point of view.
The truth is that while Smogon can seem elitist sometimes, they really just want you to learn the game the best you can.

 

[CheesyBrie]

Just to chime in as a longtime lurker who occasionally posts here:
I hope, for your sake, that the application doesn't go through.
I wanted to do the same thing when I've been lambasted by the OUsers here last gen.
I hate how it feels, and it basically made me stop playing altogether. I agree with what you said: VGC is in the worst state now with all of that ish. I know this isn't the VGC spot, so I'll keep my post short: I was running Houndoom (either throat spray max spdef or Assault Vest) to beat Gholdengo in VGC. And it WORKED.

Speaking of Gholdengo and tangenting back to OU talk, that's what it feels like to play OU. You want to try something new or interesting, and You. Just. Can't.
It's always going to be the same top-tier mons and strategies, with stealth rocks and spikes and people telling you "well just run HDB" as if a band-aid handout from GameFreak addresses a generations-long flaw with the singles metagame.
Every team MUST run hazards and a way to remove or ignore them. That is a stranglehold on teambuilding and a necessity in every format of every generation. Every teammust run U-turn/Volt Switch, because Pivoting is too good and the only punish is hazards. Every team runs knock off, because it cripples fat recovery and means defoggers can't switch into stealth rock and and and and. The list goes on.

But overall, the best solution I have found is to stop playing OU altogether. I lurk in the forums, but I only comment when something is clearly wrong.

To digress and express some general displeasure of my own:
I think it was completely worthless to suspect Walking Wake and then fail to ban it when there were other clearly troublesome pokemon in the metagame. The survey indentified Garganal and... i don't actually remember because we got caught off guard by Walking Wake showing up. However, the council should have put it to a Quickban vote (which they did) and then moved on with their next normal instance of tiering action (suspect Garganacl).
I think the failure to act in that matter undermines a lot of the good, proactive bans that we've seen this gen so far.

Cycling back to the more important topic, Sprite, I see you. I've been there. I'd say it's okay to step away. You don't have to close everything out, but if you want to, I support whatever you choose is best for you.
I'd say try to find a few friends you've maybe made on here and connect with them outside of smogon for little mini-events or such. I'm sure there are plenty of little events online and maybe even at large events that you could attend and enjoy flexing what you've learned as a player.

Overall though? I just want you to be okay. OU isn't fun for me to begin with, but watching someone hurt and get torn apart is... well I just don't think that's what Pokemon is about.


tl;dr suspect Garg, and consider making a metagame where the same trappings of every previous gen are removed. And please remember that we're all here because we love pokemon in one aspect or another. Treat people better, because words are powerful, even when you may not realize it.

tl;dr;tl;dr Be More Kind

 

[ausma]

It makes me really happy to see that everyone here is being so supportive and uplifting; to me, it demonstrates what we are really here for.

SpritePony, you are welcome to message me if there's anything more on your mind that's bothering you. We are always happy to lend a hand if you have any questions or concerns. Furthermore, any of you may reach out to me if you need advice or support in any capacity. We staff appreciate you all and what you guys bring to the table, but above all else we care for your comfort and ability to enjoy your time in our community.

However, in the interest of the thread I would like to request we move on. Though, as I said you are still welcome to contact us if need be, especially since we recognize that the climate of discussion and the game itself can be frustrating at times. Take care of yourselves everyone.

 

[Magcargo]

I've been trying Iron Moth out and gotta say, the mon feels... very mid. I expected this mon to be borderline OP since it has that amazing Fire / Psychic / Poison Coverage and reliably recovery on top of ok defenses and Uber worthy 140 / 110 offenses. However, that defense and speed tier just ain't cutting it in this meta. Too many fast threats like Dragapult, Meow, Iron Valiant, etc. on top of strong AF priority from Kingambit give it a bit of a hard time. Feels like it has a bit of 4MSS syndrome too since it wants Fire & Poison Stab + Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Morning Sun, ,etc. which is hard to fit. It also feels like it doesn't have enough power with a Heavy Duty Boots set. It doesn't help that it doesn't actually have most of the utility you'd want it to have considering its typing (i.e. Valiant, Kingambit check) due to its poor defense. The Morning Sun Heavy Duty boots set (which I was hoping to like) feels borderline useless in most games since its either not bulky, not fast, or not strong enough, and has 4MSS due to its limited power. I've actually had some decent success with that Booster Energy + Agility set since its a fair deal stronger, so its good neutral coverage combined w/ Booster Energy and potential Fiery Dance Boost become a lot more potent, esp since Booster energy boost cannot be negated by Unaware. However, a set like this feels more specialized in the styles it can fit. I was hoping the HDB set would be that generalist staple that could fit on a variety of teams, like Gholdengo or Garganacl, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case (though maybe my expectations were being set a bit high there lol).

What are you're guy's thoughts on Iron Moth? Is it mid or am I just using it wrong? What are some other good sets it can run, and what are some partners that can help bring out its true potential?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I've been trying Iron Moth out and gotta say, the mon feels... very mid. I expected this mon to be borderline OP since it has that amazing Fire / Psychic / Poison Coverage and reliably recovery on top of ok defenses and Uber worthy 140 / 110 offenses. However, that defense and speed tier just ain't cutting it in this meta. Too many fast threats like Dragapult, Meow, Iron Valiant, etc. on top of strong AF priority from Kingambit give it a bit of a hard time. Feels like it has a bit of 4MSS syndrome too since it wants Fire & Poison Stab + Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Morning Sun, ,etc. which is hard to fit. It also feels like it doesn't have enough power with a Heavy Duty Boots set. It doesn't help that it doesn't actually have most of the utility you'd want it to have considering its typing (i.e. Valiant, Kingambit check) due to its poor defense. The Morning Sun Heavy Duty boots set (which I was hoping to like) feels borderline useless in most games since its either not bulky, not fast, or not strong enough, and has 4MSS due to its limited power. I've actually had some decent success with that Booster Energy + Agility set since its a fair deal stronger, so its good neutral coverage combined w/ Booster Energy and potential Fiery Dance Boost become a lot more potent, esp since Booster energy boost cannot be negated by Unaware. However, a set like this feels more specialized in the styles it can fit. I was hoping the HDB set would be that generalist staple that could fit on a variety of teams, like Gholdengo or Garganacl, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case (though maybe my expectations were being set a bit high there lol).

What are you're guy's thoughts on Iron Moth? Is it mid or am I just using it wrong? What are some other good sets it can run, and what are some partners that can help bring out its true potential?

honestly? try pincurchin. you're stacking ground weaknesses but in return you get the damage output from quark drive without having to run booster energy, which frees up your item slot for boots. or, you know, specs or scarf, because once iron moth is quarked up it's tied with hadron engine miraidon for highest effective spa of any non-stat-boosted mon (natdex included), so you might as well forgo all the fancy boosting and healing and just start eating teams.

it may be true that pincurchin is not a good mon in the traditional sense, but neither are greedent or spidops and we've managed to find places for even them. i still think pincurchin has a niche in the meta just by merit of being able to turn some of the more lackluster future paradoxes into team-wrecking nightmares. try it, see how it works

 

[Return to Zero]

I've been trying Iron Moth out and gotta say, the mon feels... very mid. I expected this mon to be borderline OP since it has that amazing Fire / Psychic / Poison Coverage and reliably recovery on top of ok defenses and Uber worthy 140 / 110 offenses. However, that defense and speed tier just ain't cutting it in this meta. Too many fast threats like Dragapult, Meow, Iron Valiant, etc. on top of strong AF priority from Kingambit give it a bit of a hard time. Feels like it has a bit of 4MSS syndrome too since it wants Fire & Poison Stab + Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Morning Sun, ,etc. which is hard to fit. It also feels like it doesn't have enough power with a Heavy Duty Boots set. It doesn't help that it doesn't actually have most of the utility you'd want it to have considering its typing (i.e. Valiant, Kingambit check) due to its poor defense. The Morning Sun Heavy Duty boots set (which I was hoping to like) feels borderline useless in most games since its either not bulky, not fast, or not strong enough, and has 4MSS due to its limited power. I've actually had some decent success with that Booster Energy + Agility set since its a fair deal stronger, so its good neutral coverage combined w/ Booster Energy and potential Fiery Dance Boost become a lot more potent, esp since Booster energy boost cannot be negated by Unaware. However, a set like this feels more specialized in the styles it can fit. I was hoping the HDB set would be that generalist staple that could fit on a variety of teams, like Gholdengo or Garganacl, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case (though maybe my expectations were being set a bit high there lol).

What are you're guy's thoughts on Iron Moth? Is it mid or am I just using it wrong? What are some other good sets it can run, and what are some partners that can help bring out its true potential?

Moth kind of needs some outside help to get going. Quark Drive, Shed Tail, what have you. It's a fantastically strong wallbreaker, but it's just barely not fast enough to threaten the really fast stuff that can punish it, especially since it needs to fit so much coverage into four moves and has that 4x Ground weakness to tightrope walk around. Plus most people opt for Specs on it, and that means it's even more linear and as long as you have switch-ins for its STAB you're pretty safe...

Really, Poison isn't in super high demand as an attacking type right now, so all it's got over Volcarona is the better special and Speed stats. Volc has a more reliable ability, the option for physical bulk investment, Quiver Dance, less Tera dependence... Iron Moth definitely has use cases, but it's just too much of a generic special attacker on the faster side.

 

[AM]

What are you're guy's thoughts on Iron Moth? Is it mid or am I just using it wrong? What are some other good sets it can run, and what are some partners that can help bring out its true potential?

It's underrated but the offensive sets only slam Hyper Offenses if Tera Fairy. Use Tspikes or with Sun.

 

[1LDK]

What are you're guy's thoughts on Iron Moth?

Is a good side grade to moth, It has a very specific defensive utility in fairy denier, its offenses are good, I don't like the Booster energy + Agility combo, I just put boots and agility and let my teammates do the hard work, i also don't use t spikes, I prefer stuff like morning sun, psychic, U-turn and even whirlwind if your feeling like doing memes

not cool bro what did i ever do to you

When I truly needed you the most, you couldn't defog the rocks and the 2 layers of hazards no matter how hard you tried, you also lose to tinkaton in lore and to almost every single A/S Pokémon in the tier list except for Kingambit (if packing body press but body press sucks in this meta) and great tusk (which you beat hard, but that's only it)

 

[Funky's Team Shack]

I've been trying Iron Moth out and gotta say, the mon feels... very mid. I expected this mon to be borderline OP since it has that amazing Fire / Psychic / Poison Coverage and reliably recovery on top of ok defenses and Uber worthy 140 / 110 offenses. However, that defense and speed tier just ain't cutting it in this meta. Too many fast threats like Dragapult, Meow, Iron Valiant, etc. on top of strong AF priority from Kingambit give it a bit of a hard time. Feels like it has a bit of 4MSS syndrome too since it wants Fire & Poison Stab + Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Morning Sun, ,etc. which is hard to fit. It also feels like it doesn't have enough power with a Heavy Duty Boots set. It doesn't help that it doesn't actually have most of the utility you'd want it to have considering its typing (i.e. Valiant, Kingambit check) due to its poor defense. The Morning Sun Heavy Duty boots set (which I was hoping to like) feels borderline useless in most games since its either not bulky, not fast, or not strong enough, and has 4MSS due to its limited power. I've actually had some decent success with that Booster Energy + Agility set since its a fair deal stronger, so its good neutral coverage combined w/ Booster Energy and potential Fiery Dance Boost become a lot more potent, esp since Booster energy boost cannot be negated by Unaware. However, a set like this feels more specialized in the styles it can fit. I was hoping the HDB set would be that generalist staple that could fit on a variety of teams, like Gholdengo or Garganacl, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case (though maybe my expectations were being set a bit high there lol).

What are you're guy's thoughts on Iron Moth? Is it mid or am I just using it wrong? What are some other good sets it can run, and what are some partners that can help bring out its true potential?

ive had some success with tera fairy boots moth w/ gleam, surprisingly rips through some teams while gaining useful resistances

 

[viivian]

When I truly needed you the most, you couldn't defog the rocks and the 2 layers of hazards no matter how hard you tried, you also lose to tinkaton in lore and to almost every single A/S Pokémon in the tier list except for Kingambit (if packing body press but body press sucks in this meta) and great tusk (which you beat hard, but that's only it)

hey! i beat clodsire, dragonite, garchomp and hatterene too!! (kind of)

that is a genuinely fair though since the meta is not very kind to me as of late. there's tons of strong attackers and tons of walls who can both take advantage of me and force me out. it's just pretty easy to come in and set up or go in for the kill by virtue of my passivity and it's usually something most pokemon can do with relative ease.

also ackshually i do not lose to tinkaton in lore she just chucks rocks at me whenever i fly (cheating)

 

[Skyuchi]

What are you're guy's thoughts on Iron Moth? Is it mid or am I just using it wrong? What are some other good sets it can run, and what are some partners that can help bring out its true potential?

I think in this largely electric terrainless meta it can be summed up pretty easily. It's just a slightly more extreme Volcarona that doesn't have Quiver Dance and trades Poison for Bug.
Great Pokemon? Sure, yeah, but why are you giving up on Quiver Dance? It's one of the best boosting moves in the game.
If you ever wanted to run choiced Volc, run this instead either with some choice or Booster Energy. Otherwise it's just not as good as the original, and unfortunately choiced Volc isn't very good to begin with.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

i'm finding myself extremely dissatisfied with the meta atm, especially after wake not getting banned. to me, it really feels like there's very little reason to run anything other than some variant of hyper offense- either a shed tail team w/ orthworm, a hstack team with glimmora/basically any other fast hazard setter, or run weather (usually sun w/ wake). everything else feels extremely inefficient and effectively impossible to climb the ladder with primarily due to how matchup-fishy the meta game is. most games feel like they're won or lost based on team matchup alone and it's incredibly frustrating and uninteresting. sure, there's stuff like pex/clod/dozo which help a bit for more defensive teams, but it feels like even they are just barely able to deal with the absurd power level of the tier. garg is probably the closest thing we have and is pretty fun to use, imo, but it's also quite possibly one of my least favourite pokemon to fight and even it isn't perfect.

i miss late gen 8's slower pace. unfortunately game freak is on meth and refuses to make any form of defensive play viable. it's a shame, really. there's some interesting mons i would love to use in this meta, but it's just so biased in favor of hyper offense that anything else is just not worth playing. this is kinda what i was getting at with comparing the gen to gen 5.

 

[1LDK]

In my personal opinion, I'm at the opposite spectrum, I really like this meta due to its diversity in strategies, colorful mon variety and dynamic evolution, thanks to the new mons, items and tera. Sure, HO is super free right now, but even that has a worth note variety, screens, shit tail, cheese blessing, but now there are available tools to handle it, sun, while kind of extreme, especially compared to other weathers, can be normally checked by your own tusk and putting preasure on torkoal

Stall for example, while weaker than last gens, still has tools to make it worth, see infestation pex, garganacl, the 3 unawere bros and the single best mon for both stall and HO, Gholdengo

Balance can really mix and match on what it wants, and it would be too wide to explain

And BO is doing more than fine

I will admit there are some bad things, Garganacl and Walking Wake are the most problematic stuff when talking about banworthy mons, and the lack of hazard removal and level of matchup fish that cannot be denied

I would say that gen 9 has more power creep than gen 5, but nothing will ever beat gen 7 in terms of bullshit, from both sides. And I from the experiences that I have lived and my own personal opinion, do not miss at all the monotony of gen 8, in both offense and defensive treads

 

[Dhrabb]

I've been enjoying the meta quite a bit. The abundance of new mons feels fresh, especially since I like most of the new gen 9 mons even outside their competitive viability. The limited pool sucks for sure, but the meta changes every week so I feel that it remains fun to play. It also has many viable strategies although facing Shed tail is annoying.

 

[awyp]

I just want to give Zoroark-H some credit, I think when it was first released people were making fun of it saying its just Zoroark but it's typing makes a world of difference, there a lot of Dark types in the tier as well as Rapid Spinners, this is where it comes in. Tusk wanting to spin realizes its Zoroark and gets 2HKO'd by Hyper Voice. Another situation is any time you pair Zoro with Roaring Moon or Kingambit and the opposing side will use a fighting move, Mach Punch from Breloom, Close Combat from Quaq, HJK from Cinderace, CC / Body Press from Great Tusk, it all gets 2HKO'd from the most part so it's a very game swinging Pokémon. I feel like I just have to give Zoro their flowers because super underrated mon and you have to predict right to really catch it and make it useless.


Zoroark-Hisui @ Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot
- Flamethrower

My personal favorite set but Choice Specs Trick is more gutsy and probably more bang for your buck but I like leaning behind a Focus Sash if I can.

 

[Ast0rga]

Random tera sweepers are fun, I like this meta.
You can express yourself in many creative ways like Tera electric Iron leaves or the infinite amount of Iron Valiant variants.
Tera walls are fun too. Yeah this a good meta.

Garganacl is not fun tho.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

In my personal opinion, I'm at the opposite spectrum, I really like this meta due to its diversity in strategies, colorful mon variety and dynamic evolution, thanks to the new mons, items and tera. Sure, HO is super free right now, but even that has a worth note variety, screens, shit tail, cheese blessing, but now there are available tools to handle it, sun, while kind of extreme, especially compared to other weathers, can be normally checked by your own tusk and putting preasure on torkoal

Stall for example, while weaker than last gens, still has tools to make it worth, see infestation pex, garganacl, the 3 unawere bros and the single best mon for both stall and HO, Gholdengo

Balance can really mix and match on what it wants, and it would be too wide to explain

And BO is doing more than fine

I will admit there are some bad things, Garganacl and Walking Wake are the most problematic stuff when talking about banworthy mons, and the lack of hazard removal and level of matchup fish that cannot be denied

I would say that gen 9 has more power creep than gen 5, but nothing will ever beat gen 7 in terms of bullshit, from both sides. And I from the experiences that I have lived and my own personal opinion, do not miss at all the monotony of gen 8, in both offense and defensive treads

i really just don't see how balance and bo are at all even remotely close to where hyper offense is in the meta rn. the unaware mons are good and all but they are barely able to keep up with how just absolutely ridiculously strong the majority of offense pokemon are in this meta. valiant, moon, wake, dnite, volc, etc. all are insanely strong and can often still muscle past the unaware mons depending on the set, especially given that they all have to deal with so many different mons and the nerf to recovery making their longevity throughout the match quite questionable. the majority of the time on defense you have to blow your own tera, and that can easily ruin your team's defensive profile since you no longer resist a different, extremely powerful hyper offense mon on your opponent's team.

stall still has tools, i never said it didn't, but the tools (such as infestation pex) they have i really don't think are worth the downside of instalosing into so many matchups. stall's really damn close to being effectively a gimmick similar to trick room or tailwind.

i don't get how you can say gen 8 was monotonous, especially late into the gen. in home and dlc1, sure, but around this time last year the meta was as i recall it quite fun, given that bulky offense and balance were the two best styles. there were tons of ways to beat every style all around, and even regen spam had its downsides.

at the very least, when i played gen 8, i knew that the majority of the time when i loaded into a ladder game, i wouldn't load into a matchup that is either an instant win for myself or an instant win for my opponent. i can't say that for gen 9.

Random tera sweepers are fun, I like this meta.
You can express yourself in many creative ways like Tera electric Iron leaves or the infinite amount of Iron Valiant variants.
Tera walls are fun too. Yeah this a good meta.

Garganacl is not fun tho.

i don't think i've ever had less fun on ladder than queueing into a match, winning for the vast majority of the game, and then losing because of a completely off the wall tera that realistically shouldn't work, but only did because i wasn't expecting it and didn't prepare for it in builder.

 

[viivian]

i'm finding myself extremely dissatisfied with the meta atm, especially after wake not getting banned. to me, it really feels like there's very little reason to run anything other than some variant of hyper offense- either a shed tail team w/ orthworm, a hstack team with glimmora/basically any other fast hazard setter, or run weather (usually sun w/ wake). everything else feels extremely inefficient and effectively impossible to climb the ladder with primarily due to how matchup-fishy the meta game is. most games feel like they're won or lost based on team matchup alone and it's incredibly frustrating and uninteresting. sure, there's stuff like pex/clod/dozo which help a bit for more defensive teams, but it feels like even they are just barely able to deal with the absurd power level of the tier. garg is probably the closest thing we have and is pretty fun to use, imo, but it's also quite possibly one of my least favourite pokemon to fight and even it isn't perfect.

i miss late gen 8's slower pace. unfortunately game freak is on meth and refuses to make any form of defensive play viable. it's a shame, really. there's some interesting mons i would love to use in this meta, but it's just so biased in favor of hyper offense that anything else is just not worth playing. this is kinda what i was getting at with comparing the gen to gen 5.

honestly think bulkier teams are in a pretty good spot as of now due to their all-around good MUs against most of the meta. be it hard stall or fat balance, i don't really see any detriment in stacking strong defensive backbones on teams if they cover each other's weaknesses efficiently, whereas there was a massive detriment to doing so when chien-pao and chi-yu were legal. i actually really like the current metagame now since it feels so diverse in what players can effectively use, and i've come to realize that walking wake only exemplified that diversity in options, while not invalidating others.

in contrast to the above paragraph, during the time period(s) when chien-pao and especially chi-yu were legal, most teamstyles you see now were either rendered unviable, mostly anything that wasn't offense/hyper offense, which was really all that could be used at that time, and the same was true for chien-pao when it was #1 in the meta. they killed off a ton of versatility and straight up denied some pokemon their niches due to either outclassing them or significantly hindering them, with baxcalibur being a perfect example of the former. it was considered vastly inferior to chien-pao during its time and generally not worth using as an offensive ice type over it, but now it's considered to be a genuinely good wallbreaker and a legitimate meta threat. hydreigon is another example, this time befitting both the former latter. not only was its wallbreaking role outdone entirely by chi-yu when it was around, but it also really disliked the prevalence of tyranitar and roaring moon as checks, and was hindered even further by chien-pao's presence in the metagame. now that they're both banned, however, hydreigon has found a niche for itself now that both its biggest check and its main competition are gone. and these are just a few of many examples of pokemon that are viable now that weren't before. walking wake, on the other hand, doesn't exactly powercreep otherwise strong pokemon like the two ruin legendaries did. it simply adds more niches to pokemon who really appreciate it, namely azumarill, slowking and gastrodon, among other things.

and that's why i no longer have a problem with it staying unbanned, since it doesn't really exert as much pressure as some of the genuinely unhealthy pokemon we've dealt with many times before. it's simply something you have to play around to the best of your ability, unlike chi-yu.

TLDR: the meta is more diverse in options than it's ever been before, and walking wake does nothing to harm that diversity from what i've seen of it so far. fatter teams are still very much viable as of now, and have only strengthened in viability following wake's release

EDIT: also sorry for the huge rant about chien-pao but i really think it leaving the tier has done unimaginable wonders for OU and has diversified the amount of viable picks greatly. i should've just kept it short but yeah i really like this current meta without chien-pao